Nikon's Tech Manager posts to E-mail list

[Backdoctor]

Focus is a basic function. The camera focus', it just doesnt have an assist light. That doesnt make it defective or a bad camera. It would be a better camera with one. I really dont have any focus issues, but the af assist light would be a nice bonus, yet I knew that there was none when i bought it and had handled it a couple time taking pictures first.

My 2 Cents

Harris

yes, if my Ferrari's top speed was 100 km/h - I would be
dissapointed, although maybe somewhere, in small prints, that
information could have been available.

why are you so aggressive, by the way? I don't like expressions
like "wake up", etc.

--
Harris
http://www.pbase.com/backdoctor

 

[Backdoctor]

Let the buyer beware... The onus is on you as the buyer to fully
understand your purchase and do the reasearch nessecary to make
sure you will be happy. Did you not test it at the shop? That alone
would have given you an indication of what to expect. I'm sorry but
I have no sympathy for you.

I read plenty of posts from happy 5700 owners who are content to
use the workarounds and take pictures instead of complaining about
something that wasn't listed as a feature in the first place. It's
your choice on how to spend your money, personally I'm not rich
enough to be able to cash like that without doing a heck of a lot
of research first.

If I were going to buy a ferrari I'd want to look under the bonnet
first to make sure it wasn't a trabant....

I am wondering if I have got a rougue 5700 as I don't appear to
have any issues with focusing in low light if I keep it steady
locks real quick, maybe I should trade it in so I can get one like
most other peoples. Or then again......

Neil --

Cheers
Phil

cp5000

--
Harris
http://www.pbase.com/backdoctor

 

[kecohen]

Well, the "angry mob" is probably about to get angrier....
as I just saw where the 5700 has been REDUCED in price by about 20%...
now going for $995 at Executive Cameras.
This is always a bad sign for such a new camera.

But hardly unusual prior to the release next month of the new, more expensive cameras. By the way, I paid less than that for mine 4 months ago. My total outlay for the complete package was $924, which included an extra EN-EL1 battery. My father always told me: "never be afraid to negotiate."
--
Karen

...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Minolta 7000i, accessories and lenses, lenses, lenses; CP5700, TC15ED,
Kenko KUT-300 Hi, SB80X Speedlight, Epson Stylus 980N, Epson 7600
(shared), Epson Expression 1680 w/ transparency unit, Tamron Fotovix
60WU....
http://www.e-designarts.com
http://www.pbase.com/kecohen/

 

[Hariette]

He says: "I'm not here to blow my own trumpet but I know for a fact that not only do Nikon read Nikon reviews but that the site as a whole is well read by people working for all of the major manufacturers (we know this from our access logs). And probably even more interesting is that a considerable number of the reviews are read by the japanese R&D depts. (YYY.co.jp etc.)"

Passage from this old post http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1007&message=2152818

Dentry said that his participation in the yahoo fourm is on his own
time and against the advise of his peers at Nikon because of the
beating one takes in this type of forum. Dentry further said that
he usually posts in the SLR areas but, he would continue to post at
yahoo if he could offer useful information. I wish he would post
here also as the yahoo forum is a pain in the ass to use. Maybe if
we all send a polite email inviting him to stop by....

One does have to wonder why product managers don't lurk in the
forums more, I know I do for my industry. Further, why do the
problems many of us post about never show up in the main stream
media reviews and online reviews. I think an article in digital
camera or shutterbug with a headline THE 5700 HAS A LONG LIST OF
COMPLAINTS would quickly get some attention - at the cost of
advertising maybe, an that's the rest of the answer.

David Dentry (Nikon USA's Manager, Technical Information, Digital
Products) has recently posted a few messages to the Nikon 5700
E-mail list at Yahoo Groups. There isn't any "new" news in his
messages but it is encouraging to see him participating. If you
would like to read what has been posted (and exchanged), please
visit the Nikon5700 site here:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nikon5700/

You will likely have to join the group to be able to read any
messages.

Mark

 

[John McN]

With all due respect, I must say that this explanation:

Kecohen wrote:

I can nearly guarantee that most the time your camera is focusing "on areas outside the focus area," that the camera is in fact focused, but you are shooting a person, and what you are experiencing is not lack of focus, but motion blur. People move, even when they are sitting perfectly still--their hearts are pulsing at a minimum of 60 beats/min. And they are breathing. Therefore, without a tripod you are limited to a shutter speed of no less than 1/60 to freeze focus on them. As a consequence to a too slow shutter, the objects that aren't moving (and are still within your DOF) will be perfectly focused, while the subjects that are moving even fractionally, will be blurred.

is perhaps a bit far-reaching in its technical musing??

Are you saying that the PHOTOGRAPHER is moving or the SUBJECT is moving?? If you mean the subject is a moving target because of his/her pulserate...welll.....that may be a bit hard to believe. The breathing thing, maybe if they are panting after a jog...but not just breathing!

I have taken thousands of pictures with all kinds of cameras of people moving and stationary in many situations (including low light, etc...) portraits and candids and I must say that the minimal "movement" you are siting as a focus problem has never presented a problem for me.

The issue of the camera focusing on another object behind the subject disproves that the camera is focused on the foreground subject, and that it has motion blur, because the wall would not be in focus if that were the case. The camera is obviously locking at a different distance, not the intended subject's distance.

If you mean that the PHOTOGRAPHER is moving due to pulse, breathing, then I can understand what you are saying, of course. But, I think the fact that most P&S cameras don't have this problem fuels this (usually) misguided debate into eternity, because people have not the experience to draw from (no offense intended here, but I would love to give someone my F3 for a week and have them walk around their house and try to take pictures in low light that they would be happy with! )

SORRY SO LONG WINDED

John

 

[kecohen]

With all due respect, I must say that this explanation:

is perhaps a bit far-reaching in its technical musing??
Are you saying that the PHOTOGRAPHER is moving or the SUBJECT is
moving?? If you mean the subject is a moving target because of
his/her pulserate...welll.....that may be a bit hard to believe.
The breathing thing, maybe if they are panting after a jog...but
not just breathing!

Not really. Both are moving. What may be imperceptible to the human eye is not only perceptible, but magnified and exacerbated by the close up lens (remember, this lens has a built in 4x magnification factor because of the small CCD) Although, more blur will be the result of the photographer's movements than by the subject's. So, by stabilizing the camera, you eliminate the majority of the difficulty, but not the whole thing.

I have taken thousands of pictures with all kinds of cameras of
people moving and stationary in many situations (including low
light, etc...) portraits and candids and I must say that the
minimal "movement" you are siting as a focus problem has never
presented a problem for me.

You have probably never had as lightweight a camera with as long a focal length lens. If you have used a 280-300mm lens before, you know if you are holding the camera, you must shoot at a minimum of 1/300 in daylight, and dampen the vibration of the servo with your other hand just to get a decent shot of a landscape or a building.

The issue of the camera focusing on another object behind the
subject disproves that the camera is focused on the foreground
subject, and that it has motion blur, because the wall would not be
in focus if that were the case. The camera is obviously locking at
a different distance, not the intended subject's distance.

If the subject and the wall are both within the depth of field, then you're wrong.

If you mean that the PHOTOGRAPHER is moving due to pulse,
breathing, then I can understand what you are saying, of course.
But, I think the fact that most P&S cameras don't have this problem
fuels this (usually) misguided debate into eternity, because people
have not the experience to draw from (no offense intended here, but
I would love to give someone my F3 for a week and have them walk
around their house and try to take pictures in low light that they
would be happy with! )

You're right, most point and shoot cameras don't have more than 200mm (equivalent) focal length (most actually have a good deal less.) Also, most point and shoot cameras' algorithms assume "worst case" and use the fastest shutter speed and most light they can produce to accomodate. My daughter has a Canon Rebel 2000 film SLR--the best P&S I've ever seen. You set the dial for "portrait", "landscape" or "sports". The camera knows the proper settings to use for the available light. Bingo. Perfect every time (as long as you're not interested in creative effects.)

The CP5700 doesn't do that, BUT it does provide the photographer the ability with the User modes to tell the camera how to set itself properly for those basic conditions--and even allows for modifications for creativity. However, and this is the most important part: you have to know enough about the lens (and it's limitations), shutter speed and aperture settings, light, depth of field, field of view, etc, to be able to enter the information to begin with. And then, you have to have the proper photo techniques to allow the camera to perform optimally.
--
Karen

...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Minolta 7000i, accessories and lenses, lenses, lenses; CP5700, TC15ED,
Kenko KUT-300 Hi, SB80X Speedlight, Epson Stylus 980N, Epson 7600
(shared), Epson Expression 1680 w/ transparency unit, Tamron Fotovix
60WU....
http://www.e-designarts.com
http://www.pbase.com/kecohen/

 

[John McN]

kecohen wrote:
You have probably never had as lightweight a camera with as long a

focal length lens. If you have used a 280-300mm lens before, you
know if you are holding the camera, you must shoot at a minimum of
1/300 in daylight, and dampen the vibration of the servo with your
other hand just to get a decent shot of a landscape or a building.

The examples you give are not really related. If I shoot a building at 1/250 outside handheld, granted that I am relatively still, the blur will NOT be as bad as it would be from the camera focusing two or three feet behind the subject, OR from my subject's breathing or pulse. Lets compare apples to apples, not some over-theorized concept!

Also, I don't think the camera was zoomed out to 280mm in the examples given here.

kecohen wrote:
If the subject and the wall are both within the depth of field,

then you're wrong.

I would hope you know better than this! If the wall is even a foot or two behind the subject, given the aperture that would probably be used on a low-light indoor flash shot, they would NOT be in the same DOF range.

We have all seen the examples that have been posted on this forum (pics) that show the problem that is in debate here. I personally have not had much of a problem, probably because of prior camera experience, but in reading the explanations you give I must disagree because your facts aren't accurate and why mislead someone?

It seems that you are giving these great technical answers, and I'm sure in some instances they apply, but in this case I must agree to disagree.

I think your ideas are coming from theory more than practice. I could take portraits all day in low light with flash zoomed to 280 PLUS some digital zoom and get spot-on focused pictures almost every time. BUT this camera will every so often throw the focus out of the subject's range and lock on another point. It's a fact. and it is not me.

Good theories, but stop perpetuating the fact that the users of this camera are wrong. Some certainly are, but not as many as you think!
Just deal with the fact that the cam has a kink in it!

John

 

[Thomas Bauer136193]

Let the buyer beware... The onus is on you as the buyer to fully
understand your purchase and do the reasearch nessecary to make
sure you will be happy. Did you not test it at the shop? That alone
would have given you an indication of what to expect. I'm sorry but
I have no sympathy for you.

I read plenty of posts from happy 5700 owners who are content to
use the workarounds and take pictures instead of complaining about
something that wasn't listed as a feature in the first place. It's
your choice on how to spend your money, personally I'm not rich
enough to be able to cash like that without doing a heck of a lot
of research first.

If I were going to buy a ferrari I'd want to look under the bonnet
first to make sure it wasn't a trabant....

--
Cheers
Phil

cp5000

These type statements digress the cause.

Let us say there is a very good camera like the Coolpix 500, (I am using the 5000 for an example)
Because: in this case it applies.
Moreover, I came on the forum after using it for the first time in the studio.

And suggested that a 1000.00 Nikon with a hot shoe should have the same capabilities as a basic low-end camera with a hot shoe.
(Like hook it to a common flash sync cord)

In addition, I was the first to suggest that I could work around it by taping the on camera flash, and using it in the studio that way.
(Which, by the way works perfectly)

I am curious… Were you around when the 5000 first came out?
In addition, where you singing caveat emptor then?

I was the first to complain about the 5000’s flash, and
The first to suggest the “Tape over the flash work around”

The first to complain that a $1000.00 Nikon with a hot shoe
Should work like any other “low end on up” camera with a hot shoe.
(Meaning you can use it with a common flash sync cord)

I wasn't the first to put in the new firmware, But we know what fueled the idea for it. (It was not a coincident)

I was the biggest complainer of Nikon not listening to customer complaints.
I was then like now, a loyal Nikon user and advocate of a firmware fix.
I was a royal pain in their aress’s.

Moreover, I did not take the caveat emptor position,
Because I know what is reasonable to ask of a $1000.00 Nikon.
They agreed with me and fixed it.
No thanX, to the scores of others, who got in my way, and not in my group.
One more question,

… (Do you have the new firmware in your 5000?) …
... ( http://www.ycsphoto.com ) ...
~ Hit F11 key @ my site - Right Mouse click to navigate~

I wonder how many WILL NOT up-grade thier 5700 with a new firmware?

 

[Thomas Bauer136193]

Let the buyer beware... The onus is on you as the buyer to fully
understand your purchase and do the reasearch nessecary to make
sure you will be happy. Did you not test it at the shop? That alone
would have given you an indication of what to expect. I'm sorry but
I have no sympathy for you.

I read plenty of posts from happy 5700 owners who are content to
use the workarounds and take pictures instead of complaining about
something that wasn't listed as a feature in the first place. It's
your choice on how to spend your money, personally I'm not rich
enough to be able to cash like that without doing a heck of a lot
of research first.

If I were going to buy a ferrari I'd want to look under the bonnet
first to make sure it wasn't a trabant....

--
Cheers
Phil

cp5000

These type statements digress the cause.
Let us say there is a very good camera like the Coolpix 500, (I am
using the 5000 for an example)
Because: in this case it applies.
Moreover, I came on the forum after using it for the first time in
the studio.
And suggested that a 1000.00 Nikon with a hot shoe should have the
same capabilities as a basic low-end camera with a hot shoe.
(Like hook it to a common flash sync cord)
In addition, I was the first to suggest that I could work around it
by taping the on camera flash, and using it in the studio that way.
(Which, by the way works perfectly)

I am curious… Were you around when the 5000 first came out?
In addition, where you singing caveat emptor then?

I was the first to complain about the 5000’s flash, and
The first to suggest the “Tape over the flash work around”

The first to complain that a $1000.00 Nikon with a hot shoe
Should work like any other “low end on up” camera with a hot shoe.
(Meaning you can use it with a common flash sync cord)
I wasn't the first to put in the new firmware, But we know what
fueled the idea for it. (It was not a coincident)

I was the biggest complainer of Nikon not listening to customer
complaints.
I was then like now, a loyal Nikon user and advocate of a firmware
fix.
I was a royal pain in their aress’s.

Moreover, I did not take the caveat emptor position,
Because I know what is reasonable to ask of a $1000.00 Nikon.
They agreed with me and fixed it.
No thanX, to the scores of others, who got in my way, and not in my
group.
One more question,

… (Do you have the new firmware in your 5000?) …
... ( http://www.ycsphoto.com ) ...
~ Hit F11 key @ my site - Right Mouse click to navigate~

I wonder how many WILL NOT up-grade thier 5700 with a new firmware?

--
... ( http://www.ycsphoto.com ) ...
~ Hit F11 key @ my site - Right Mouse click to navigate~

 

[Gary Stark137586]

Karen,

it: AF assist is unnecessary at 200mm equivalent and below. Above
200mm, it won't help. Only a tripod will help.

Or perhaps a better way to determine focus manually.

The two silly icons, with nothing much in between, tells me that the Nikon designer who came up this concept similarly had very little between his or her ears.

Like, how difficult would it have been to add a couple more indicators to the display?

 

[kecohen]

Good technique isn't theory, John, it's tried and true...as well as being based on the sciences of physics and optics--those are immutable laws. And surely you are aware that at 50mm (actual CP5700 focal length, 200mm equiv.) and 4.0 aperture, with a subject at 12 feet, you have a foot of DOF. The less telephoto you use, the greater your DOF will be.

My camera has no kinks. It behaves flawlessly, exactly the way I expect it to. And in many ways it behaves better than my Minolta (with AF assist and multi focus sensors.) If I do not confuse the camera in low light/low contrast by using multi sensor Area Focus, it always defaults to a single, centered focus sensor. On occasion it may hunt if it isn't stabilized, but if I use a tripod, it never fails to lock on focus even when the subject has only barely enough light to distinguish it from the background.

If other users are unable to reliably get the same results that you or I do, and they are in fact using good photographic technique, then perhaps they should take their camera in for repairs.

--
Karen

...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Minolta 7000i, accessories and lenses, lenses, lenses; CP5700, TC15ED,
Kenko KUT-300 Hi, SB80X Speedlight, Epson Stylus 980N, Epson 7600
(shared), Epson Expression 1680 w/ transparency unit, Tamron Fotovix
60WU....
http://www.e-designarts.com
http://www.pbase.com/kecohen/

 

[Gary Stark137586]

Karen,

Even when prefocussing on areas of maximum contrast and using the
camera at zooms close to the 35mm equivalent, the camera does not
lock on. If it does lock on there is a real chance that it has
locked onto areas well outside the focus area.

Yes, I have. My camera has no difficulty as long as I do not zoom
all the way to the maximum 71.2 (280mm equiv), and/or I use a

The why bother evcen having this feature, if it cannot be used?

tripod to steady it. The photographer's rule of thumb (for heavier,
35mm film cameras) is that, to truly freeze your action, your
shutter speed should be at least the equivalent of the reciprocal

Yep. Good rule; I use it all the time.

Too bad you're misreading these posts, though.

We're not really talking about getting out of focus images, although that will frequently be the end result.

We're talking about the inability of the camera to even lock onto an area to achieve a preliminary point of focus.

The camera, in lowlight situations, frequently simply refuses to focus. It's that simple!

I can nearly guarantee that most the time your camera is focusing
"on areas outside the focus area," that the camera is in fact
focused, but you are shooting a person, and what you are

And, with respect, you would be wrong.

It has failed to focus on pictures, walls, tables, and chairs. And frequently not at maximum zoom.

The camera, in lowlight situations, frequently simply refuses to focus. It's that simple!

experiencing is not lack of focus, but motion blur. People move,

Motion blur without even making an exposure? There's a concept whose time has come.

I've made enough lowlight images where the camera has told me it's locked onto focus, and the resulting images have been exactly this. Or camera shake. I'm well aware of these issues, and I'm competent enough to distinguish between them.

But this is not the issue that I see all too frequently. When I go somewhere - perhaps a relatively well lit (but still somewhat dark) restaurant, where I'm going to shoot with a flash (and therefore your comments regarding shutter speed become totally irrelevant), but where I cannot lock focus onto the subject matter sitting across the table from me ...

That to me is a serious and fundamental deficiency in the basic operability of the camera.

Do Nikon say that the camera doesn't focus well in lowlight situations?

Or do you believe that the expectation that one should be able to focus the camera's lens is too much to ask?

You yourself have said that people buying a $1000 dollar camera
($2.5k for us in Australia), will do research. Surely the same
argument says that a lot of them are likely to be proficient at the
use of a camera? It is aimed at the prosumer end of the market,
and that is where most of the buyers will be..... people who can
use a camera.... and yet the complaints persist... surely there
must be something in it?

There is much difference in levels of proficiency with a camera.
People who are most accustomed to a point and shoot camera, or
people who have no prior experience with long telephotos cannot be
said to be proficient with a camera that has one.

While this is true, I think that Mykel's points are well made. The 5700 is not, by simple virtue of its high price, a camera for the average P&S user. Its rich feature set and learning curve are far too demainding for anyone except those who take their photography with some element of seriousness.

In that regard, Nikon have, with their failure to adequately support the users' need to focus accurately, well and truly missed the mark.

Anecdotally, my daughter's friend was killed in a car accident
recently. He was accustomed to driving a sports car. He and his
brother swapped vehicles for the day. He had difficulty adjusting
to the power, size and weight of the truck. On a narrow road with
no paved shoulder, his right tire went off the road surface into
the dirt. He over-corrected, pulling the truck directly into
oncoming traffic. He and the other driver were killed. A child in
the other car who had been securely confined in a car seat barely
survived. Neither vehicle was going over the speed limit.
There is no substitute for experience.

This is a vastly different scenario, with some degree of relevance.

The bottom line of that anecdote though is that when one is driving, one needs to be accutely aware of the capabilities of the vehicle one is driving. I drive sports cars all the time, and I have a wagon too. Plus the car I provide for my two teenage sons to drive. Plus my girlfriend's car. Plus, when travelling, the rubbish rentals that the rental companies provide. Each of these vehicles has vastly different performance capabilities: engine, handling, steering response, centre of gravity, weight distribution, and so on.

I know that I need to adjust my mindset each time I get into a car, so that I can remember - or (re)learn - the dynamics of each vehicle.

And I can tell you that far too many people know far too little about the dynamics of the vehicle that they're driving.

It's partially experience, but equally it's often a lack of education.

Which is also what you're saying.

 

[kecohen]

it: AF assist is unnecessary at 200mm equivalent and below. Above
200mm, it won't help. Only a tripod will help.

Or perhaps a better way to determine focus manually.

The two silly icons, with nothing much in between, tells me that
the Nikon designer who came up this concept similarly had very
little between his or her ears.

Like, how difficult would it have been to add a couple more
indicators to the display?

I'm with you on that.
--
Karen

...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Minolta 7000i, accessories and lenses, lenses, lenses; CP5700, TC15ED,
Kenko KUT-300 Hi, SB80X Speedlight, Epson Stylus 980N, Epson 7600
(shared), Epson Expression 1680 w/ transparency unit, Tamron Fotovix
60WU....
http://www.e-designarts.com
http://www.pbase.com/kecohen/

 

[Mykl Devlin]

Karen,

all this is incredibly interesting, but completely irrelevant if you are using a 1/500th of a second (ish) flash.

In most cases it really is not hard to tell the difference between something that has motion blur and something that is plain and simple out of focus.

Mykl

There is no real method of doing a manual focus, because the EVF
does not let you see what you are focussing on, and prefocussing by
distance is hard because there is no scale on the focus bar.

No argument there.

 

[Mykl Devlin]

I admit I made an error of judgement with regard to the 5700.

I thought (somewhat egotistically) like some people here, that all this activity was just people not knowing how to use a camera. Not knowing the very basic "lock focus on something the same distance away with better contrast; reframe; take the photo." That will never happen to me.... I know how to use a camera.

I was wrong.

(Note: I did not make an error in buying the 5700 - just in my interpretation of the evidence in the groups.)

Let the buyer beware... The onus is on you as the buyer to fully
understand your purchase and do the reasearch nessecary to make
sure you will be happy. Did you not test it at the shop? That alone
would have given you an indication of what to expect. I'm sorry but
I have no sympathy for you.

I read plenty of posts from happy 5700 owners who are content to
use the workarounds and take pictures instead of complaining about
something that wasn't listed as a feature in the first place. It's
your choice on how to spend your money, personally I'm not rich
enough to be able to cash like that without doing a heck of a lot
of research first.

 

[kecohen]

Karen,

Yes, I have. My camera has no difficulty as long as I do not zoom
all the way to the maximum 71.2 (280mm equiv), and/or I use a

The why bother evcen having this feature, if it cannot be used?

The 280mm length is very usable, even in low light/low contrast. Just use a tripod.

Too bad you're misreading these posts, though.
The camera, in lowlight situations, frequently simply refuses to
focus. It's that simple!

If that's the case, then the camera is confused by too much input. Like my Minolta, (with only 3 AF sensors instead of Nikon's 5), if I don't use a single centered sensor, and the contrast is low, it will check each sensor trying to find the area of most contrast and lock on that. I am aware of this, having used a camera with multiple sensors, so I set to manual Area Focus (centered) and center weighted or spot metering--since focus and metering are functionally tied together.

I've made enough lowlight images where the camera has told me it's
locked onto focus, and the resulting images have been exactly this.
Or camera shake. I'm well aware of these issues, and I'm competent
enough to distinguish between them.

You are not among the majority who, I believe are p&s-trained users.

But this is not the issue that I see all too frequently. When I go
somewhere - perhaps a relatively well lit (but still somewhat dark)
restaurant, where I'm going to shoot with a flash (and therefore
your comments regarding shutter speed become totally irrelevant),
but where I cannot lock focus onto the subject matter sitting
across the table from me ...

The onboard flash is not a strobe, Gary. So while it will stop the motion of your relatively still subject, it won't prevent the blur from camera shake. That can be helped with a tripod or a faster shutter. If you can't lock focus on the subject in front of you, change Area Focus to manual and switch to Spot Metering.

Most people beleive that it helps to turn Area Focus off. However, if you do that the camera will override your metering choice and default back to "matrix."

That to me is a serious and fundamental deficiency in the basic
operability of the camera.

If you can fix the problem by using a different settings I don't think it's the camera's fault.

As I say, I don't experience those difficulties. I believe that's why you have so many user options and settings.

Do Nikon say that the camera doesn't focus well in lowlight
situations?

I believe Nikon knows that there have been complaints, but I believe they have categorically denied a focus problem.

Or do you believe that the expectation that one should be able to
focus the camera's lens is too much to ask?

I can get the camera to give me critical focus in any situation where there is enough light to distinguish the subject from the background. I have set up my camera for different situations and lighting conditions. And I also know that if I'm using the zoom, I have to increase my shutter speed or use a tripod. In low light, where increasing my shutter will give me too underexposed an image, I use a tripod.

There is much difference in levels of proficiency with a camera.
People who are most accustomed to a point and shoot camera, or
people who have no prior experience with long telephotos cannot be
said to be proficient with a camera that has one.

While this is true, I think that Mykel's points are well made. The
5700 is not, by simple virtue of its high price, a camera for the
average P&S user. Its rich feature set and learning curve are far
too demainding for anyone except those who take their photography
with some element of seriousness.

In that regard, Nikon have, with their failure to adequately
support the users' need to focus accurately, well and truly missed
the mark.

The basic disagreement is that "the camera doesn't focus accurately." I agree that in Automatic Program mode it will do a poor job in low light, but in User mode, with a change of settings and good technique, it will do a superb job. I don't see any failure by Nikon there. Where they really missed the mark is with manual focus: no distance readout, no live histogram and no fine tuning of Shutter and Aperture settings. Also that the speedlight power zoom is unsupported.

It's partially experience, but equally it's often a lack of education.
Which is also what you're saying.

Precisely. People who don't have the experience or education aren't morons, they are simply people without experience or education. Face value, no connotations, no judgements.
--
Karen

...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Minolta 7000i, accessories and lenses, lenses, lenses; CP5700, TC15ED,
Kenko KUT-300 Hi, SB80X Speedlight, Epson Stylus 980N, Epson 7600
(shared), Epson Expression 1680 w/ transparency unit, Tamron Fotovix
60WU....
http://www.e-designarts.com
http://www.pbase.com/kecohen/

 

[John McN]

kecohen wrote:

it never fails to lock on focus even when the subject has only barely enough light to distinguish it from the background.

You are a very lucky woman! And I am a supporter of the camera! "Never" is a pretty strong statement. As well as "Flawlessly."

You still haven't explained my question- Are you saying that the subject's pulse or breathing is causing "motion blur" or are you saying that the photographer's pulse and breathing is causing it? Obviously if the photographer was the cause, the WALL BEHIND THE SUBJECT would not be in sharp focus! SO, you must be saying that the subject's pulse and breathing is the cause, which is just straight bogus. Total bunk. Sorry, but I hate reading misleading info. Maybe that's why the people that read this forum can't get their cameras to work.

I'm interested in how your "tried and true" theories will explain this...

John

Good technique isn't theory, John, it's tried and true...as well as
being based on the sciences of physics and optics--those are
immutable laws. And surely you are aware that at 50mm (actual
CP5700 focal length, 200mm equiv.) and 4.0 aperture, with a subject
at 12 feet, you have a foot of DOF. The less telephoto you use, the
greater your DOF will be.

My camera has no kinks. It behaves flawlessly, exactly the way I
expect it to. And in many ways it behaves better than my Minolta
(with AF assist and multi focus sensors.) If I do not confuse the
camera in low light/low contrast by using multi sensor Area Focus,
it always defaults to a single, centered focus sensor. On occasion
it may hunt if it isn't stabilized, but if I use a tripod, it never
fails to lock on focus even when the subject has only barely enough
light to distinguish it from the background.

If other users are unable to reliably get the same results that you
or I do, and they are in fact using good photographic technique,
then perhaps they should take their camera in for repairs.

--
Karen

...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you
need.
Minolta 7000i, accessories and lenses, lenses, lenses; CP5700, TC15ED,
Kenko KUT-300 Hi, SB80X Speedlight, Epson Stylus 980N, Epson 7600
(shared), Epson Expression 1680 w/ transparency unit, Tamron Fotovix
60WU....
http://www.e-designarts.com
http://www.pbase.com/kecohen/

 

[kecohen]

John,

You are right. I am a very lucky woman. Not only do I have a great camera, but I attended a photography course as part of my post graduate work. And, my best friend is a professional photographer (for 35 years.)

When I first got this camera I sat with it in my office pouring through the manual and trying test shots. Like most, I set it to Automaic Program mode. My husband sat about 8 feet from me. I zoomed, focused on his eyes, and snapped. The camera's shutter was 1/30 with an aperture of approximately 3.2. and focal length of 16.8. I did not use a tripod. Instead, I made my body into a tripod as I'd been taught to do, with both elbows on the desk and the rest of my body as the third support. I held my breath and eased the shutter. The photo was clear as a bell behind him, but my husband's face was out of focus.

I tried again several times. All with the same results. As luck would have it, my friend stopped in to drop off a disc. He fixed my problem instantly and gave me both a quick refresher and some insights into going digital: "Increase your shutter speed."

"C'mon," I said. "I'm using the flash and the camera is stable."

Makes no difference. Jon is moving. Imperceptible to you, but not to your camera. That thing has a 4x magnification factor that's exaggerating even the tiniest motion. Then we calculated the approximate equivalent length of the lens...nearly 70mm. Well, not really enough for a tripod with my film camera. "I'll tell you right now," he said, "this isn't your film camera."

I increased the shutter to 1/60. The "problem" was not in the camera. It has not reappeared in the 4 months that I've had it. By the way, if you like, try this little experiment. Set your camera on a tripod and use the camera's default "continuous focus" and matrix metering. Use full telephoto and aim at a model's eyes, or nose, or whatever. Now leave it alone. Hear the autofocus? And if you use continuous autofocus with a slow shutter, you also have the servo vibration to contend with.

As for the other difficulties that people complain about--inability to get focus lock in low contrast lighting, all I can say is that I use a tripod and set the Area Focus to Manual and use Spot (centered) metering--as I learned to do with my Minolta that only has 3 focus sensors (as opposed to the 5 that the Nikon has.) Since metering and focus are integrated, using matrix metering in low contrast makes the camera check all 5 sensors looking for contrast. When you eliminate that hunt, by choosing center focus and spot metering, you eliminate all but one sensor; The camera has no options and it's forced to look in only one place. Stabilizing it will help it lock even quicker because there is no additional optical confusion.

--
Karen

...but if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need.
Minolta 7000i, accessories and lenses, lenses, lenses; CP5700, TC15ED,
Kenko KUT-300 Hi, SB80X Speedlight, Epson Stylus 980N, Epson 7600
(shared), Epson Expression 1680 w/ transparency unit, Tamron Fotovix
60WU....
http://www.e-designarts.com
http://www.pbase.com/kecohen/

 

[Gary Stark137586]

Karen,

Yes, I have. My camera has no difficulty as long as I do not zoom
all the way to the maximum 71.2 (280mm equiv), and/or I use a

The why bother evcen having this feature, if it cannot be used?

The 280mm length is very usable,

Yes it is, but you seem to be contradicting yourself when you say "My camera has no difficulty as long as I do not zoom all the way to the maximum 71.2"

even in low light/low contrast. Just use a tripod.

On the one hand, you're saying that at full zoom you have a problem, but OTOH, you're also saying that there is no problem if it's used conditionally.

While the tripod might help in many situations, there are equally any number of situations where a tripod simply is not a practical solution.

lock on that. I am aware of this, having used a camera with
multiple sensors, so I set to manual Area Focus (centered) and

Well, I'm using manual area focus, centered, and spot metering, and have been for most of the time since I bought the camera, but I still see this problem.

Or camera shake. I'm well aware of these issues, and I'm competent
enough to distinguish between them.

You are not among the majority who, I believe are p&s-trained users.

I'm not convinced of this. The 5700 is very sophisticated. I don't see the traditional P&S users being drawn to it because of its learning curve and difficulty of use.

The onboard flash is not a strobe, Gary. So while it will stop the
motion of your relatively still subject, it won't prevent the blur
from camera shake.

Actually, I believe it is (but certainly not a high powered one), yes it can, and it most certainly does.

I've been known to take photos using the onboard flash while deliberately moving the camera, after prefocussing on a subject. The images show no elements of camera shake. I'm certainly more than satisfied that my attempts to emulate camera shake while using the flash have failed.

shutter. If you can't lock focus on the subject in front of you,
change Area Focus to manual and switch to Spot Metering.

Yep. Been there; done that. Still doesn't work.

Most people beleive that it helps to turn Area Focus off. However,

Well, for me it doesn't seem to work either way.

If you can fix the problem by using a different settings I don't
think it's the camera's fault.

I would agree, but the sad fact remains that, in low light conditions, the camera frequently fails to find focus, regardless of the setting I have chosen.

As I say, I don't experience those difficulties. I believe that's
why you have so many user options and settings.

Perhaps because your image subjects and/or locations are conducive to more static usage than I find myself in? I certainly can't use one in a crowded bar, shooting the band on stage. In fact, I absolutely wouldn't want to.

I can get the camera to give me critical focus in any situation
where there is enough light to distinguish the subject from the
background. I have set up my camera for different situations and

And this is the crux of the issue: what, precisely, is "enough light" ?

I can certainly separate the subject from the background, but I appreciate that no light sensing equipment can match our eyes in this regard.

That being said, I can use my F801 with its dark-ish viewfinder and achieve manual focus quite easily. Further, I can use the same ancient camera under the same conditions in AF mode and it will lock focus quiite readily.

The 5700, used in parallel with the 801 just 10 days ago, couldn't match the 801 for reliability of focus.

lighting conditions. And I also know that if I'm using the zoom, I
have to increase my shutter speed or use a tripod. In low light,
where increasing my shutter will give me too underexposed an image,
I use a tripod.

Yes, but again, it depends, and again, tripod usage isn't always an option.

In that regard, Nikon have, with their failure to adequately
support the users' need to focus accurately, well and truly missed
the mark.

The basic disagreement is that "the camera doesn't focus
accurately." I agree that in Automatic Program mode it will do a

No, not quite. I think that the basic disagreement is that "the camera doesn't focus accurately in low light situations".

The qualification here is a vital piece of data, and I think that it's one that you seem to be in basic agreement with. But from what you're saying, I think that it might also be reasonable to say that your photographic situations permit you to work around the problem, through, for instance, your use of a tripod. Certainly my experience is that in good lighting conditions the camera focusses quickly and accurately.

poor job in low light, but in User mode, with a change of settings
and good technique, it will do a superb job. I don't see any

Well, I think that what you're describing as "proper technique" is dependant upon a number of factors, some of which just cannot be employed in every instance.

failure by Nikon there. Where they really missed the mark is with
manual focus: no distance readout, no live histogram and no fine
tuning of Shutter and Aperture settings. Also that the speedlight
power zoom is unsupported.

We're certainly in agreement here.

It's partially experience, but equally it's often a lack of education.
Which is also what you're saying.

Precisely. People who don't have the experience or education aren't
morons, they are simply people without experience or education.
Face value, no connotations, no judgements.

Well, they might not be morons.

Getting the experience and education won;t change them if they are.

--
g.
Gary Stark
[email protected]
Down under in Sydney, Oz.

 

[Ron T]

Hi Gary,

Yes indeed, the onboard flash is a strobe, note the "SB" red ready indicator in the monitor/evf. The flash on the 5700 is in the neighborhood of 1/2000th sec. I use up to 1/2000th shutter for sych. unless I want to use the flash for fill. Then slower shutter speeds are in order.

Ron T

Actually, I believe it is (but certainly not a high powered one),
yes it can, and it most certainly does.

I've been known to take photos using the onboard flash while
deliberately moving the camera, after prefocussing on a subject.
The images show no elements of camera shake. I'm certainly more
than satisfied that my attempts to emulate camera shake while using
the flash have failed.