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G11 circled by MFT and APS-C compacts, flaming arrows, G11 out gunned...
- Thread starter hiplnsdrftr
- Start date
Les Lammers
Senior Member
The GF-1 look good but the $$ will add up fast with lenses and add on EVF. It still has a rather small sensor. I don't want a 'new system'.
Ken53
Senior Member
I agree where you’re coming from, and your posts show experience and knowledge.
On the lighter and more humorous side, is the fact that you spoke against a G series canon. In this forum that raises the hair on the necks of many. Some of the longest running threads started out by some much warranted G series complaints.
Your thoughts and ideas are personal to you, and seem to be right on the money. It’s been a great thread.
A G10 owner, but I use my SX10 more.
Ken
Thomas Niemann
Senior Member
Resized the images to 20x30". They look fine, even when viewed close-up.
For those interested, the prints are dry-mounted to black foam core (for black edges) with wood stretchers on the back (to prevent warping). The stretchers also space the prints about 1/2" from the wall. Simple, light, and effective.
Mounting was done at a framing shop by a professional. Brought the G10 with me when I picked up the prints. Took it out of my pocket, hit the ON button causing the tiny lens to reveal itself, and told her this was the camera, the point-n-shoot, that took the picture. You should have seen the expression on her face.
For those interested, the prints are dry-mounted to black foam core (for black edges) with wood stretchers on the back (to prevent warping). The stretchers also space the prints about 1/2" from the wall. Simple, light, and effective.
Mounting was done at a framing shop by a professional. Brought the G10 with me when I picked up the prints. Took it out of my pocket, hit the ON button causing the tiny lens to reveal itself, and told her this was the camera, the point-n-shoot, that took the picture. You should have seen the expression on her face.
I am the original G-series user, but I stopped using it when Sigma DP1 came out, as I wanted less noise and "some" DOF. As painful as DP1 was and is, it runs circles around the G compact in image quality. Now I have the Oly EP1 and it is pretty sweet. Large sensor compact and reasonably bright prime lenses suddenly let you rediscover available light photography, something I was never able to get with my G's. When I get the Panasonic20/f1.7 prime, then I will have an f1.7 lens on an image-stabilized body with a large sensor, which will let me shoot handheld in pretty dark places.
I am happy with the Olympus and I do think that the G-series dead-ended. The ergonomics of the G cameras is perfect, the form factor is great, and the zoom lens is as good as they can make it without making it too big or too mediocre. Now the camera development is limited by a sensor size. If they try to stick a larger sensor in, they won;t be able to maintain the same zoom, so they'd have to go to either shorter range or a prime. if they make a prime lens, might as well make it interchangeable, so now we are kind of looking at the EP1/GF1 clone. Actually, I would consider spending a good chunk of money on an EP1/GF1 clone with a set of Canon L primes, a Canon APS-C sensor and Canon ergonomics and build quality. That would be pretty sweet. Not that EP1 is bad, it is a terrific camera, far, far more capable and versatile than the G-compact.
The main problem with the G compacts is that they are too big and too sophisticated for a casual shooter, and too limiting for a serious photographer. m43 fills the needs of the second group, and something like Panny LX3 works for the first. Canon has lost the innovative edge.
I am happy with the Olympus and I do think that the G-series dead-ended. The ergonomics of the G cameras is perfect, the form factor is great, and the zoom lens is as good as they can make it without making it too big or too mediocre. Now the camera development is limited by a sensor size. If they try to stick a larger sensor in, they won;t be able to maintain the same zoom, so they'd have to go to either shorter range or a prime. if they make a prime lens, might as well make it interchangeable, so now we are kind of looking at the EP1/GF1 clone. Actually, I would consider spending a good chunk of money on an EP1/GF1 clone with a set of Canon L primes, a Canon APS-C sensor and Canon ergonomics and build quality. That would be pretty sweet. Not that EP1 is bad, it is a terrific camera, far, far more capable and versatile than the G-compact.
The main problem with the G compacts is that they are too big and too sophisticated for a casual shooter, and too limiting for a serious photographer. m43 fills the needs of the second group, and something like Panny LX3 works for the first. Canon has lost the innovative edge.
Do you really think a $1300 camera with no zoom range that doesn't go flat when off is competition for a G-series camera? They have nothing whatsoever to do with each other.
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Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
If an EP1 and 20/1.7 were your goal, why not a 500D and 35/2 and 50/1.8 for $155 less? You'd get a more powerful, more flexible, faster focusing system for less money.
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Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
hiplnsdrftr
Leading Member
First of all the GF1 with the 20mm is only about 10% heavier and 10mm thicker than the G11. However the sensor in the GF1 is about 5.6 times larger than the one in the G11. So in my case, content with a prime, I will gladly carry 40 grams extra of camera to have a 5.6 times larger sensor!
If you want a zoom then the G11 is probably better, but it only goes to 140mm equivalence, so even then, it may not be that desirable to telephoto-zoom junkies.
In addition, in order to really enjoy using a tool like a camera, for myself, I need to respect the design of the machine. The EP-1, the X1 and thr GF1 have a combination of form and function that I appreciate. In another word they are simply cool.
Sorry to say, the 500D might be a good value of a camera, but it is anything but cool. And just about twice the size of the cameras in question.
Once again, I don't buy the argument that the GF1 is so much larger than the G11...
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holding out for a high quality FF compact...
WolfyWho
Leading Member
Beautiful pictures, and very nice wall display. I'm curious. Have you tried swapping the position of the image of the seagulls with the image of the bicyclist? How did it look?
Where on earth did you find GF1 or EP1 for $1,300? At the Rudy's Internet Inflated Prices Online store?
Maybe you are confusing it with the GH1, which is an HD camcorder (a totally different beast with the only other equivalent of it being 5DMkII for, what, $2,500 body only?). GX1 and EP1 are $799 for their kits. For extra $200 ($800 vs $600 or so, right), I get a camera that can actually take good pictures in bad light and whose pictures do look like pictures from a multi-$K SLRs. With the G11 I get an expensive camera that cannot take good pictures in bad light and whose pictures look like an improved version of a $100 point and shoot my aunt Lori is using for the last 5 years. To me the choice could not be clearer. I don't really give a damn about zoom, I am just fine zooming with my feet, but if I want zoom, I can buy a kit zoom lens.
Maybe you are confusing it with the GH1, which is an HD camcorder (a totally different beast with the only other equivalent of it being 5DMkII for, what, $2,500 body only?). GX1 and EP1 are $799 for their kits. For extra $200 ($800 vs $600 or so, right), I get a camera that can actually take good pictures in bad light and whose pictures do look like pictures from a multi-$K SLRs. With the G11 I get an expensive camera that cannot take good pictures in bad light and whose pictures look like an improved version of a $100 point and shoot my aunt Lori is using for the last 5 years. To me the choice could not be clearer. I don't really give a damn about zoom, I am just fine zooming with my feet, but if I want zoom, I can buy a kit zoom lens.
If I can take a large camera, I have a 5D with a good L-lens kit for the times when I am out really taking pictures, or taking pictures for money. I could not care less about 500D. What I need is a compact small camera that can deliver the IQ in all kinds of light. EP1 delivers that capability, G11 does not. It is really quite irritating when people start to compare m43 with full-size SLRs, m43 was developed from the ground up as a compact system that does not compete with the SLRs. Based on the equipment you own, you should understand the difference, so I don't quite understand your position. If you are claiming that a small sensor superzoom would take better pictures than a large-sensor compact with a prime lens, good luck and god bless you, because you will need all the help you can get.
Thomas Niemann
Senior Member
An interesting idea but didn't try it. Actually I was wishing that the pelicans were flying in the same direction as the bicycle.
SamTruax
Senior Member
Well, I wish those prices were the same around here.
$1100 for GF-1 with 20 mm
$580 for G11
and if I were to get the Panasonic I would want the viewfinder so that is another $200...then I would need some kind of zoom for it down the road....
Anyway you look at it (here) it is significantly more money. Pretty much double.
I would rather have the GF-1 for its better IQ, flexibility, etc. but if I can't dump some of my other equipment it looks like I would be leaning toward the G11. Fortunately Canon has done a good job with the G series and the image quality is about as good as you can get out of that sensor size. Until the micro 4/3 or compact APS-C cameras start selling for under $600 including a lens I think the G series will do just fine.
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Sam
'Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it... albeit probably in colour the second time around.'
$1100 for GF-1 with 20 mm
$580 for G11
and if I were to get the Panasonic I would want the viewfinder so that is another $200...then I would need some kind of zoom for it down the road....
Anyway you look at it (here) it is significantly more money. Pretty much double.
I would rather have the GF-1 for its better IQ, flexibility, etc. but if I can't dump some of my other equipment it looks like I would be leaning toward the G11. Fortunately Canon has done a good job with the G series and the image quality is about as good as you can get out of that sensor size. Until the micro 4/3 or compact APS-C cameras start selling for under $600 including a lens I think the G series will do just fine.
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Sam
'Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it... albeit probably in colour the second time around.'
Glen Barrington
Forum Pro
That pelicans simply will NOT listen to reason.
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Mayonnaise on white bread, mmmmm!
Now that you've judged the quality of my typing, take a look at my photos. . .
http://www.jpgmag.com/people/glenbarrington/photos
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Mayonnaise on white bread, mmmmm!
Now that you've judged the quality of my typing, take a look at my photos. . .
http://www.jpgmag.com/people/glenbarrington/photos
With no zoom range, yes.
The 500D with a lens like the 35/2 is hardly a full-size SLR. It's tiny.
It doesn't compete with compacts either.
Here's my position.
If I'm traveling light, it has to fit in my pocket. Hence, my SD960IS. The G-series doesn't, and none of the m4/3 cameras are even close.
If it can't fit in my pocket, and I still want to travel light, that means I only want a single piece, not a bunch of pieces that have to be in a bag. Traveling with a single prime is way too limiting so I'd need several. This means a compact superzoom is ideal, hence my S3IS.
If it has to be in a bag anyway, it doesn't matter very much what's in there. A few grams and millimeters here and there make no difference in bag size, so if I'm going to have a bag, I want some POWER. That means an SLR.
These not-very-compact cameras with prime lenses that don't fit in a pocket and cost upwards of $1,500 don't fit any conceivable application to me, and putting a zoom on them completely defeats the purpose of tolerating such a tiny camera with lousy ergonomics.
If you are willing to go out with just a single prime, and not shoot very much, maybe an expensive camera with no range and bad ergonomics would appeal to you. For me, not one iota. If I go out with just primes, I take all three of mine.
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Lee Jay
(see profile for equipment)
You can get a zoom for it, you know... And it not that large.
It is not tiny compared to EP1/17pancake. Or compared to G11.
It did in my case, I bought a m43 instead of the next G series camera, and I always had a G compact.
Here is my position- you cannot have you cake and eat it. You cannot have a small camera with huge zoom range and great IQ, it is a fantasy, so you need to chooe one of the two. I choose a small camera with great IQ, you choose a small camera with large zoom range. Different compromises.
One last remark- you don't know lousy ergonomics until you shoot with Sigma DP1, all your Canon gear spoiled you;-) So don't call Olympus ergonomics lousy, it actually handles pretty well and I can even set it exactly as I set my 5D, with one dial controlling aperture and another exposure compensation. I like that. The only wish is for the back wheel to be a bit harder to turn, but that's nitpicking...
JortS29
Senior Member
Steveasub
Well-known member
MisterPootieCat
Senior Member
I've been trying for 6 months to talk a co-worker into selling me his S3 IS that he bought new but never uses. I own the S2 & S5 and think the S3 sensor density was in the sweet spot for that camera line. And I like the idea of owning all three of them too!
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