2 main D7i concerns so far. Yes. Noise...

[s k u l p t]

Looking at samples, I have to main concerns regarding the D7i as of now.

1) Noise. I'm sorry to those who think the noise is better than the 707. It's really not. I've downloaded and viewed several samples of the 707 vs D7i. Look at the triangular building shot. Look into the dark windows. Ouch. Look at the grey areas. I can see noise in the grey areas with a view of 50% Keep in mind as well that the D7i image saturation levels are way down compared to the 707 images. Either desaturate the 707 samples down to match the D7i, or saturate the D7i samples to the 707 for an even fairer comparison. I really cringe at the thought of taking a picture with the D7i of a dark cloud/bright sun sutset. The noise could really take off I'm afraid.

2) Blown out highlights. Could be the settings. Could be the photographer. Still, the blown out highlights always concern me.

Now I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the samples that I'm seeing are being done at the non optimum settings. That could very well be. But as of now, I'm going to wait and see.

I LOVE the specs of the D7i. I love the 28mm combo with the 200mm. I love the tack sharp lens (even corners). I love the manual focus/zoom. And there is more. I love the price and the batteries and the 49mm thread.

I just want to wait and see though regarding this noise. Man. It's worse than my C3000Z which is old by now. Luckily, at 5mp, noise doesn't come into effect as much. Noise artifacts will be much smaller at 5mp than 3mp when printing.

B A H

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

 

[Claymore]

Looking at samples, I have to main concerns regarding the D7i as of
now.

1) Noise. I'm sorry to those who think the noise is better than the
707. It's really not. I've downloaded and viewed several samples of
the 707 vs D7i. Look at the triangular building shot. Look into the
dark windows. Ouch. Look at the grey areas. I can see noise in the
grey areas with a view of 50% Keep in mind as well that the D7i
image saturation levels are way down compared to the 707 images.
Either desaturate the 707 samples down to match the D7i, or
saturate the D7i samples to the 707 for an even fairer comparison.
I really cringe at the thought of taking a picture with the D7i of
a dark cloud/bright sun sutset. The noise could really take off I'm
afraid.

2) Blown out highlights. Could be the settings. Could be the
photographer. Still, the blown out highlights always concern me.

Now I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the samples that I'm
seeing are being done at the non optimum settings. That could very
well be. But as of now, I'm going to wait and see.

I LOVE the specs of the D7i. I love the 28mm combo with the 200mm.
I love the tack sharp lens (even corners). I love the manual
focus/zoom. And there is more. I love the price and the batteries
and the 49mm thread.

I just want to wait and see though regarding this noise. Man. It's
worse than my C3000Z which is old by now. Luckily, at 5mp, noise
doesn't come into effect as much. Noise artifacts will be much
smaller at 5mp than 3mp when printing.

B A H

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Looked at your posted Oly pictures, not bad. Now, those of us who
DO OWN the D-7 are quite happy with the total lack of noise when
used right, perfect natural color, and all the other attributes that make
it a superior camera. Your searches through all the other forums should
give you plenty of information and help you decide on your next camera.

--
Clifford
http://www.imageevent.com/cdbrown

 

[Major C Henderson]

There is no doubt that our D7i does have more noise than the 707, but I bought the D7i because of the fact I could use the Microdrive in it and the excellent lens it has. I am looking for a suitable noise reduction program and then I will have as close to the perfect camera which is now available.

I must say that the only place, in my pictures, that I have noticed the noise is in the blue sky. It almost even seems that it shows up at certain shades of blue. A light blue doesn't seem to show it as much.

 

[Claymore]

There is no doubt that our D7i does have more noise than the 707,
but I bought the D7i because of the fact I could use the Microdrive
in it and the excellent lens it has. I am looking for a suitable
noise reduction program and then I will have as close to the
perfect camera which is now available.

I must say that the only place, in my pictures, that I have noticed
the noise is in the blue sky. It almost even seems that it shows up
at certain shades of blue. A light blue doesn't seem to show it as
much.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Major, go to;
http://www.neatimage.com This even corrects 800 asa, this
helps make the D-7 even more perfect!

Clifford
http://www.imageevent.com/cdbrown

 

[Alani]

I think i got this right, he has a Mack, NI would not work for him.

Hay, Major, get a PC (I am serious, get a smal referb pc from dell or gateway, you don't need a monitor since you have one attached to the Mac! - Ah, but then again, that is higher than the $200 plug-in for PS!)

-Alan

There is no doubt that our D7i does have more noise than the 707,
but I bought the D7i because of the fact I could use the Microdrive
in it and the excellent lens it has. I am looking for a suitable
noise reduction program and then I will have as close to the
perfect camera which is now available.

I must say that the only place, in my pictures, that I have noticed
the noise is in the blue sky. It almost even seems that it shows up
at certain shades of blue. A light blue doesn't seem to show it as
much.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Major, go to;
http://www.neatimage.com This even corrects 800 asa, this
helps make the D-7 even more perfect!

Clifford
http://www.imageevent.com/cdbrown

 

[*isteve]

You are right about the grey area noise in the dark windows - terrible! You got me researching a lot harder and I made a couple of comparison crops from my D7i vs crops from the Sony samples.

My results are NOT up there with Steve's for noise. Nor are some of the better samples I have seen posted on here for the D7i.

For blue skys I would have to say they are pretty similar for similar shades. For grey samples I give the nod to the F707 in terms of "smoothness" but in terms of variation (in pixel colour and luminosity) they are quite similar. F707 has larger colour blobs which tends to give a smoother impression but "real" noise is about the same. The D7i looks more like film grain which can be a bonus and certainly seems to fool my Canon printer!

I would guess the F707 is doing noise reduction in camera to "average out" some of the noise but its still there. They use the same CCD after all! Wonder what else its doing.

I was also surprised by how unsaturated Steve's shots looked. Compared to the D7 shots on Phil's site they are very washed out. Maybe the sun position or weather? Who knows. Maybe it would still benefit from sRGB conversion?

Check out Phils D7 and F707 samples. Colour looks great!

Steve

Looking at samples, I have to main concerns regarding the D7i as of
now.

1) Noise. I'm sorry to those who think the noise is better than the
707. It's really not. I've downloaded and viewed several samples of
the 707 vs D7i. Look at the triangular building shot. Look into the
dark windows. Ouch. Look at the grey areas. I can see noise in the
grey areas with a view of 50% Keep in mind as well that the D7i
image saturation levels are way down compared to the 707 images.
Either desaturate the 707 samples down to match the D7i, or
saturate the D7i samples to the 707 for an even fairer comparison.
I really cringe at the thought of taking a picture with the D7i of
a dark cloud/bright sun sutset. The noise could really take off I'm
afraid.

2) Blown out highlights. Could be the settings. Could be the
photographer. Still, the blown out highlights always concern me.

Now I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the samples that I'm
seeing are being done at the non optimum settings. That could very
well be. But as of now, I'm going to wait and see.

I LOVE the specs of the D7i. I love the 28mm combo with the 200mm.
I love the tack sharp lens (even corners). I love the manual
focus/zoom. And there is more. I love the price and the batteries
and the 49mm thread.

I just want to wait and see though regarding this noise. Man. It's
worse than my C3000Z which is old by now. Luckily, at 5mp, noise
doesn't come into effect as much. Noise artifacts will be much
smaller at 5mp than 3mp when printing.

B A H

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

 

[Thordur Arnason]

It might be that I have a bit to simplistic views on noise in the D7, D7i and F707 but here goes...

Fist and foremost: They all use the same CCD to capture images ( http://www.sony.co.jp/~semicon/english/img/sony01/a6802960.pdf )

Ignoring the lens, thus avoiding the GT vs. Carl Zeiss debate, and focusing on what happens in-camera after the image is captured:

1. The CCD data is written to the camera buffer

2. The camera performs some operations on the image data including in-camera sharpening and noise reduction.

3. The image data is written to a file in either JPEG,TIFF or RAW (RAW only available in D7/D7i) on the media (CF type I or II in the D7/D7i, Memorystick in the F707)

So what is going to effect the final image quality? Well, there are four things that can affect the way an image will look out of these cameras:

1. The ISO setting: 100,200,400 or 800 (800 only available in D7/D7i)
2. The in-camera processing including noise redution and sharpening
3. The colour space used in the resulting image files
4. The compression level, if JPEG is used.

So the percived noise in images captured by any of these three cameras boils down to what Sony and Minolta do when post processing an image in-camera and what your preferences are.

I have no problem with the noise in images captured with my D7. If, for any reason, I would want to reduce the noise (for some purposes this can be necessary) I just use noise reduction software that gives me the results I want.

I love Minolta for giving me the choice and not doing heavy noise reduction in-camera like some other brands/models do.

--
Cheers,

Thordur Arnason
All about DiMAGE - http://www.arnason.no/

 

[Cat 5]

I'll agree with you about the noise. The 7i pix I have seen are a tad noisy, but I don't think enough to be an issue. However, the Sony cameras (all of them) seem far more prone than the Minoltas to get theose "video camera" looking blown highlights. In fact, that is one of the main reasons I like the Minolta cameras better than both Sony & Nikon. They look more like traditional film to me. As far as saturation goes, you can adjust the camera settings so that te saturation is every bid as deep as the 707 right out of the cam (which I would call a bit hyped...definitely not natural) or leave it and adjust later. Either way, don't let that sway you. It's like comparing two stereos, and one being a bit louder at half volume. It's a bit deceiving.

If you read through a few reviews you'll see the 707 has a few more shortcomings such as a lower resolution viewfinder, and quite a bit more lens barrel distortion at wide angle. Coupled with a smaller zoom, funky layout, and the fact that you have to use the more expensive Sony memory sticks this completely x'ed out the 707 for me. Some nice shots, but too much wrong. You may have different priorities, but I think the Canon G2 is a better alternative than the Sony 707, and it's really more comparabl;e to the s404 - not the 7i.

Just my .02

Shane

Looking at samples, I have to main concerns regarding the D7i as of
now.

1) Noise. I'm sorry to those who think the noise is better than the
707. It's really not. I've downloaded and viewed several samples of
the 707 vs D7i. Look at the triangular building shot. Look into the
dark windows. Ouch. Look at the grey areas. I can see noise in the
grey areas with a view of 50% Keep in mind as well that the D7i
image saturation levels are way down compared to the 707 images.
Either desaturate the 707 samples down to match the D7i, or
saturate the D7i samples to the 707 for an even fairer comparison.
I really cringe at the thought of taking a picture with the D7i of
a dark cloud/bright sun sutset. The noise could really take off I'm
afraid.

2) Blown out highlights. Could be the settings. Could be the
photographer. Still, the blown out highlights always concern me.

Now I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the samples that I'm
seeing are being done at the non optimum settings. That could very
well be. But as of now, I'm going to wait and see.

I LOVE the specs of the D7i. I love the 28mm combo with the 200mm.
I love the tack sharp lens (even corners). I love the manual
focus/zoom. And there is more. I love the price and the batteries
and the 49mm thread.

I just want to wait and see though regarding this noise. Man. It's
worse than my C3000Z which is old by now. Luckily, at 5mp, noise
doesn't come into effect as much. Noise artifacts will be much
smaller at 5mp than 3mp when printing.

B A H

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

 

[s k u l p t]

Thanks for the info. I agree as well that the noise looks more like film grain, and that the color noise (the actual noise) is about the same. It just seems like the grain kind of noise is a bit high. I've been looking into grain and that kind of thing, and have found that some cameras over do it like you said. I wouldn't say that the 707 is overdoing it, but I've seen some Fuji 602 samples where trees are turned into washy water color paintings due to noise reduction overkill. I too would rather have noise than too much detail taken away from noise reduction.

I looked at each channel, and it's the blasted green channel that's creating pretty much all of that disturbance. Go into photoshop (or your other editing program), open up the triangle building taken with the D7i, select just the green channel, and apply the dust and scratches filter to that channel. I used radius of 1, and threshold of 2 I think. Boom. The noise is gone, but so is some detail, and green appears on some edges and some other colors slightly change. The point being, it's the green channel that's the main problem.

It might be that I have a bit to simplistic views on noise in the
D7, D7i and F707 but here goes...

Fist and foremost: They all use the same CCD to capture images (
http://www.sony.co.jp/~semicon/english/img/sony01/a6802960.pdf )

Ignoring the lens, thus avoiding the GT vs. Carl Zeiss debate, and
focusing on what happens in-camera after the image is captured:

1. The CCD data is written to the camera buffer

2. The camera performs some operations on the image data including
in-camera sharpening and noise reduction.

3. The image data is written to a file in either JPEG,TIFF or RAW
(RAW only available in D7/D7i) on the media (CF type I or II in the
D7/D7i, Memorystick in the F707)

So what is going to effect the final image quality? Well, there are
four things that can affect the way an image will look out of these
cameras:

1. The ISO setting: 100,200,400 or 800 (800 only available in D7/D7i)
2. The in-camera processing including noise redution and sharpening
3. The colour space used in the resulting image files
4. The compression level, if JPEG is used.

So the percived noise in images captured by any of these three
cameras boils down to what Sony and Minolta do when post processing
an image in-camera and what your preferences are.

I have no problem with the noise in images captured with my D7. If,
for any reason, I would want to reduce the noise (for some purposes
this can be necessary) I just use noise reduction software that
gives me the results I want.

I love Minolta for giving me the choice and not doing heavy noise
reduction in-camera like some other brands/models do.

--
Cheers,

Thordur Arnason
All about DiMAGE - http://www.arnason.no/

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

 

[Silicon Junkie©]

Major C Henderson wrote:

There is no doubt that our D7i does have more noise than the 707,
but I bought the D7i because of the fact I could use the Microdrive
in it and the excellent lens it has. I am looking for a suitable
noise reduction program...

Try NeatImage, at http://www.neatimage.com .... oh I forgot, you have a Mac, right? Hm...I don't know of a Mac program for noise reduction.

...and then I will have as close to the
perfect camera which is now available.

I must say that the only place, in my pictures, that I have noticed
the noise is in the blue sky. It almost even seems that it shows up
at certain shades of blue. A light blue doesn't seem to show it as
much.

You might see it on-screen, but it won't be noticeable at all on prints. Also, compare your blue skies from JPG shots and RAW shots, and you'll see that the RAW shots (at 100 ISO) will be almost 100% noise-free.

 

[Major C Henderson]

-------------------------------------------------------

Major, go to;
http://www.neatimage.com This even corrects 800 asa, this
helps make the D-7 even more perfect!

Clifford
http://www.imageevent.com/cdbrown

Can't do it. I have a Mac. I have been trying things in Photoshop, but so far am not satisfied, or can't figure out how to do it. I need a stand alone program which will work on a Mac. BTW, NOT and expensive one.

 

[TNRandy]

Looking at samples, I have to main concerns regarding the D7i as of
now.

1) Noise. I'm sorry to those who think the noise is better than the
707. It's really not. I've downloaded and viewed several samples of
the 707 vs D7i. Look at the triangular building shot. Look into the
dark windows. Ouch. Look at the grey areas. I can see noise in the
grey areas with a view of 50% Keep in mind as well that the D7i
image saturation levels are way down compared to the 707 images.
Either desaturate the 707 samples down to match the D7i, or
saturate the D7i samples to the 707 for an even fairer comparison.
I really cringe at the thought of taking a picture with the D7i of
a dark cloud/bright sun sutset. The noise could really take off I'm
afraid.

2) Blown out highlights. Could be the settings. Could be the
photographer. Still, the blown out highlights always concern me.

Now I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the samples that I'm
seeing are being done at the non optimum settings. That could very
well be. But as of now, I'm going to wait and see.

I LOVE the specs of the D7i. I love the 28mm combo with the 200mm.
I love the tack sharp lens (even corners). I love the manual
focus/zoom. And there is more. I love the price and the batteries
and the 49mm thread.

I just want to wait and see though regarding this noise. Man. It's
worse than my C3000Z which is old by now. Luckily, at 5mp, noise
doesn't come into effect as much. Noise artifacts will be much
smaller at 5mp than 3mp when printing.

B A H

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

I have been looking at G2 galleries and i am so impressed with that camera and the noise is not bad. But then you get to looking at telephoto lens, wide lens, and you come back and look at the 707 and d7i. I know if i buy the G2, i will be buying more add on lens, etc. Do you lose mush or any detail, when you use the program neat image? Can Minolta have an add on thru software, in camera or even a program, out of camera to correct and reduce the noise? I could live with the battery issues and any of the other bad points, is it had any, with the D7, but i can't get past the noise. I hope when Phil does the review he will comment about the noise, noise in general, and how hard it is to rid noise, with neat image or another program and if you lose much detail. This would be a killer camera if the noise could be controlled. I wish Minolta would call Canon and hire Canon to help them with noise. I have always loved the noise free pics with the D30 and i am very impressed with the G2 as well. Maybe someone can comment on the neat image program, that uses it with his or her D7i and can they tell if they lose detail and any bad points using a noise removal program.
Randy

 

[s k u l p t]

I've also been looking at the G2, but you can't match pure telephoto with add on teleconverters from what I've seen. Something I found this morning which might have put the last nail in the coffin for me is when I looked at dpreviews dynamic range tests of the G2 and then the D7. (For those who don't know, dynamic range is.....

"Dynamic range simply defines the range of light the camera is able to capture before it either loses detail in darkness (shadows for example) or blows out a highlight (edges of chromed metals are good examples of this)."

Anyways. The G2 has a rating of 675:1 ratio (the higher the better)

The D7 has a ratio of 354:1! That would easily explain the blown out highlights and the too dark shadows that you see in many shots.

B A H

I have been looking at G2 galleries and i am so impressed with that
camera and the noise is not bad. But then you get to looking at
telephoto lens, wide lens, and you come back and look at the 707
and d7i. I know if i buy the G2, i will be buying more add on lens,
etc. Do you lose mush or any detail, when you use the program neat
image? Can Minolta have an add on thru software, in camera or even
a program, out of camera to correct and reduce the noise? I could
live with the battery issues and any of the other bad points, is it
had any, with the D7, but i can't get past the noise. I hope when
Phil does the review he will comment about the noise, noise in
general, and how hard it is to rid noise, with neat image or
another program and if you lose much detail. This would be a killer
camera if the noise could be controlled. I wish Minolta would call
Canon and hire Canon to help them with noise. I have always loved
the noise free pics with the D30 and i am very impressed with the
G2 as well. Maybe someone can comment on the neat image program,
that uses it with his or her D7i and can they tell if they lose
detail and any bad points using a noise removal program.
Randy

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

 

[TNRandy]

I've also been looking at the G2, but you can't match pure
telephoto with add on teleconverters from what I've seen. Something
I found this morning which might have put the last nail in the
coffin for me is when I looked at dpreviews dynamic range tests of
the G2 and then the D7. (For those who don't know, dynamic range
is.....

"Dynamic range simply defines the range of light the camera is able
to capture before it either loses detail in darkness (shadows for
example) or blows out a highlight (edges of chromed metals are good
examples of this)."

Anyways. The G2 has a rating of 675:1 ratio (the higher the better)
The D7 has a ratio of 354:1! That would easily explain the blown
out highlights and the too dark shadows that you see in many shots.

B A H

What is the dynamic range rating on the Sony 707?

Have you looked at telephoto lens, in case you buy the G2? I was looking and a few looked nice but i think i would go with the Canon telephoto and Canon wide also. The 707 is a great camera also, but i can't see buying memory sticks, sending the camera in if it has the blue syndrome, playing with colors alot in photoshop, plus i need a camera that is not so heavy. That is why i was looking at the d7i,G2 and 707. That was interesting about the dynamic range numbers you pointed out and thanks. Let us know on what camera you decide on and i am right behind you also. I looked at matching Giftsplash last week, with Sears but i didn't and it was a great deal at $630.00 and i think this week it is back up about $675.00 or so. To bad Sears doesn't carry Canon and price match the G2 as well. Anyway let us know which one you decide on. I know all three are great cameras.
Randy

 

[lharris]

Between a 707 and 7i. Own a c2100 and d-40. Novice.

602 too large for my hand. I have seen the 7i-really intimitidating dials and so forth. I will do mostly flash indoor stuff. No extra lighting. Fun and hobby.

Not great with doctoring stuff later. Love EVF's . Love zoom. I am a bit unsure of the manual zoom thing-though it was more precise. I do like to print the photos. (Sorry, I use white paper,,,). 1315 printer. Great PC.
Bought Paint Pro. I like strong but real color. Natural skin color, resolution,
sharpness, contrast.

What do you think? You sound more qualified. I have really enjoyed the OLY's. The D-40 mp shots blew me away, but no zoom--tho it is 3x to the 707 5X. I would even consider th Nikon 5700, but the 7i seems better.

I know whaat noise is, but I have mostly seen it in zoom ins on my D-40
or enlargement on my c2100. The g2 photos always look great to me,

I just didn't like the feel of the camera. I don't think I will carry accessories. What I get is what I will take with me.(Except maybe a mindsstor if I go Sony)

Looking at samples, I have to main concerns regarding the D7i as of
now.

1) Noise. I'm sorry to those who think the noise is better than the
707. It's really not. I've downloaded and viewed several samples of
the 707 vs D7i. Look at the triangular building shot. Look into the
dark windows. Ouch. Look at the grey areas. I can see noise in the
grey areas with a view of 50% Keep in mind as well that the D7i
image saturation levels are way down compared to the 707 images.
Either desaturate the 707 samples down to match the D7i, or
saturate the D7i samples to the 707 for an even fairer comparison.
I really cringe at the thought of taking a picture with the D7i of
a dark cloud/bright sun sutset. The noise could really take off I'm
afraid.

2) Blown out highlights. Could be the settings. Could be the
photographer. Still, the blown out highlights always concern me.

Now I'll give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe the samples that I'm
seeing are being done at the non optimum settings. That could very
well be. But as of now, I'm going to wait and see.

I LOVE the specs of the D7i. I love the 28mm combo with the 200mm.
I love the tack sharp lens (even corners). I love the manual
focus/zoom. And there is more. I love the price and the batteries
and the 49mm thread.

I just want to wait and see though regarding this noise. Man. It's
worse than my C3000Z which is old by now. Luckily, at 5mp, noise
doesn't come into effect as much. Noise artifacts will be much
smaller at 5mp than 3mp when printing.

B A H

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

 

[TNRandy]

Between a 707 and 7i. Own a c2100 and d-40. Novice.

602 too large for my hand. I have seen the 7i-really intimitidating
dials and so forth. I will do mostly flash indoor stuff. No extra
lighting. Fun and hobby.
Not great with doctoring stuff later. Love EVF's . Love zoom. I am
a bit unsure of the manual zoom thing-though it was more precise. I
do like to print the photos. (Sorry, I use white paper,,,). 1315
printer. Great PC.
Bought Paint Pro. I like strong but real color. Natural skin color,
resolution,
sharpness, contrast.

What do you think? You sound more qualified. I have really enjoyed
the OLY's. The D-40 mp shots blew me away, but no zoom--tho it is
3x to the 707 5X. I would even consider th Nikon 5700, but the 7i
seems better.

I know whaat noise is, but I have mostly seen it in zoom ins on my
D-40
or enlargement on my c2100. The g2 photos always look great to me,
I just didn't like the feel of the camera. I don't think I will
carry accessories. What I get is what I will take with me.(Except
maybe a mindsstor if I go Sony)

I have always thought the 707 and G2 pictures were great and all these cameras have their great points and also some weaknesses on each and every camera. The same on the D7. If you can hold off, and wait for Phil's review on the d7i, i think this will make your decision alot easier. The D7i looks very strong now, if you can get away or correct the noise. In the mean time check out D7 and 707 galleries(i think this was the two cameras you were interested in). Maybe Phil will review the d7i camera soon.
Randy

 

[henri56123]

Hi Major

Photoshop has many poweful ways to elemininate noise, even without degrading the ohoto too much (depends on the case) but it takes time to learn
One good start:
change the mode from RGB to LAB

apply a gaussian blur (3-7 pixels) to the a and b channels - that takes case of the color artifacts without any effect on sharpness at all

then click the lightness channel, apply a median filter of 1 to max 2 pixels ; that takes care of most of the remaining noise;

in a more advanced stage you should use the median filter using the history brush which allows to paint the filter on selected parts of the pics where the noise is

I also work on a Mac G4 with PS 6 (as hobby)
henri

Major, go to;
http://www.neatimage.com This even corrects 800 asa, this
helps make the D-7 even more perfect!

Clifford
http://www.imageevent.com/cdbrown

Can't do it. I have a Mac. I have been trying things in Photoshop,
but so far am not satisfied, or can't figure out how to do it. I
need a stand alone program which will work on a Mac. BTW, NOT and
expensive one.

--
Pluche

 

[Michael Almond]

FYI: The D30 and D60 use a CMOS sensor not a CCD which is why they are so wonderfully noise-free. I just wish I could afford one!

I think I've tried all the tricks to reduce noise and I've found that Neat Image is by far the best. It seems to do an excellent job of removing noise without removing detail. Another good one to use is Camera Bits Quantum Mechanic (www.camerabits.com), but it is not as good as Neat Image (plus a lot more expensive - $190!). A cheaper alternative to Camera Bits is Noise Reduction Pro ($100) from http://www.theimagingfactory.com . Both are available for the Mac with demo versions.

You can get a free noise reduction Photoshop action from http://www.digitalsecrets.net/secrets/denoiseISO.html which works pretty good too.

An even cheaper trick (and basically what both Quantum and Noise Reduction Pro do) is to convert your image to LAB is Photoshop and use the despekle or dust and sctraches filter followed by an unsharp mask on the luminance channel only.

BTW: Major, isn't there software for the Mac that lets you run Windows
software? That might be the route to go.

• Mike (anxiously waiting for my D7i to arrive from Amazon)!

I have been looking at G2 galleries and i am so impressed with that
camera and the noise is not bad. But then you get to looking at
telephoto lens, wide lens, and you come back and look at the 707
and d7i. I know if i buy the G2, i will be buying more add on lens,
etc. Do you lose mush or any detail, when you use the program neat
image? Can Minolta have an add on thru software, in camera or even
a program, out of camera to correct and reduce the noise? I could
live with the battery issues and any of the other bad points, is it
had any, with the D7, but i can't get past the noise. I hope when
Phil does the review he will comment about the noise, noise in
general, and how hard it is to rid noise, with neat image or
another program and if you lose much detail. This would be a killer
camera if the noise could be controlled. I wish Minolta would call
Canon and hire Canon to help them with noise. I have always loved
the noise free pics with the D30 and i am very impressed with the
G2 as well. Maybe someone can comment on the neat image program,
that uses it with his or her D7i and can they tell if they lose
detail and any bad points using a noise removal program.
Randy

 

[*isteve]

I agree the DR of the G2 at ISO 50 with soft sharpening is very impressive!!

At ISO 100 it is better than the D7 but not by by so much. You generally get a reduction of 50% at each ISO doubling so this is not surprising and the difference is consistent with the faster lens on the G2. Adding an attachment lens to the G2 would certainly reduce it so considering the large lens the D7's performance is "OK".

I'll wait for Phils review but my impression is that default sharpening on the D7i is a little softer and the "fine" quality setting does a little less compression than the D7 - images are averaging 3 Mb. This may help somewhat with DR as well as noise. Must admit an ISO 50 setting would be nice!!!

I think my low noise experience is also related to use of the "fine" setting. I do see more noise with more compression and less in TIFF files. I will post some comparison samples as soon as I can find a place to put them but at 100% mag even the worst noise I've seen (dark overcast sky) is not very obtrusive.

Steve

"Dynamic range simply defines the range of light the camera is able
to capture before it either loses detail in darkness (shadows for
example) or blows out a highlight (edges of chromed metals are good
examples of this)."

Anyways. The G2 has a rating of 675:1 ratio (the higher the better)
The D7 has a ratio of 354:1! That would easily explain the blown
out highlights and the too dark shadows that you see in many shots.

B A H

I have been looking at G2 galleries and i am so impressed with that
camera and the noise is not bad. But then you get to looking at
telephoto lens, wide lens, and you come back and look at the 707
and d7i. I know if i buy the G2, i will be buying more add on lens,
etc. Do you lose mush or any detail, when you use the program neat
image? Can Minolta have an add on thru software, in camera or even
a program, out of camera to correct and reduce the noise? I could
live with the battery issues and any of the other bad points, is it
had any, with the D7, but i can't get past the noise. I hope when
Phil does the review he will comment about the noise, noise in
general, and how hard it is to rid noise, with neat image or
another program and if you lose much detail. This would be a killer
camera if the noise could be controlled. I wish Minolta would call
Canon and hire Canon to help them with noise. I have always loved
the noise free pics with the D30 and i am very impressed with the
G2 as well. Maybe someone can comment on the neat image program,
that uses it with his or her D7i and can they tell if they lose
detail and any bad points using a noise removal program.
Randy

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com

 

[s k u l p t]

I wish I knew Randy. Dpreview didn't show those numbers in the 707 review. I wish they would be more consistant on tests in their reviews, and what is included in each review.

All 3 cameras are quite good. The G2 in my mind takes the best looking pictures, but the telephoto range is average. Getting a 2X teleconverter will bring it to around the other cameras range, but then that's it. I'm hoping to have around 200mm to start off with, and then add a teleconverter to get to 3-400mm. So that leaves me with the 707, the D7i, and the 602. Maybe the Nikon 5700.

The 602 has some great features, but the noise reduction from what I've seen is butchering some images and making them smeary in some areas. They claim it's a 6mp camera, but it's interpolation that can be done to any 3mp image with roughly the same result. Funky artifacts showing up as well.

The 707 from what I've seen has shown the best image quality between the higher zoom cameras. Colors can be too saturated, but a quick drop in saturation levels fixes this for a few shots that go too far. The thing that impresses me about the 707 images is that the noise levels are better than the D7i, and yet the saturation is higher. Dropping the saturation will decrease the noise levels of the 707 images even more. I held a 707 today, and it felt good. Darn them for using the memory stick. I have no problems with the battery. If it lasts as long as they say it does, it doesn't bother me.

And then there's the D7i. Great features include a manual focus ring, manual zoom ring, live histogram, and tack sharp images. But from what I've seen, the images blow out highlights, and darken shadows too much. This accounts for the lower dynamic range numbers. Noise also is really high I think. Yes, you can use programs to reduce the noise, but same for any other camera. And this process takes time for each image. To me, there are too many processes at work here. First, you convert the color space in the Minolta program, drop the noise in another program, and THEN tweak it further in a program like Photoshop? Yikes. 49mm lens fits all of my filters... Bad battery life, but cheaper as well.

I'd say image quality is as follows (for me)

1) G2
2) F707
3) D7i
4) 602

Which one do I wish was the best based on features and specs? I REALLY wish the D7i had the best image quality. I would buy it so fast. It's a great price with great features, but features mean squat to me if the images can't support them.

I'm hoping that Sony releases a newer version of the 707, which will drop the price of the 707 a few hundred bucks.

But I'm eagerly awaiting the review of the D7i at other sites other than at Steve's Digicams.... Hurry up guys and gals.... : )

Keeping my fingers crossed for the D7i,

B A H

What is the dynamic range rating on the Sony 707?

Have you looked at telephoto lens, in case you buy the G2? I was
looking and a few looked nice but i think i would go with the Canon
telephoto and Canon wide also. The 707 is a great camera also, but
i can't see buying memory sticks, sending the camera in if it has
the blue syndrome, playing with colors alot in photoshop, plus i
need a camera that is not so heavy. That is why i was looking at
the d7i,G2 and 707. That was interesting about the dynamic range
numbers you pointed out and thanks. Let us know on what camera you
decide on and i am right behind you also. I looked at matching
Giftsplash last week, with Sears but i didn't and it was a great
deal at $630.00 and i think this week it is back up about $675.00
or so. To bad Sears doesn't carry Canon and price match the G2 as
well. Anyway let us know which one you decide on. I know all three
are great cameras.
Randy

--
http://www.pbase.com/gdguide
http://adigitaldreamer.com