Allan Tannenbaum - The Hidden Victims of 9/11

[marcuson]

Essentially, at bottom, you're a pretty stupid man.

I bet the early whistle blowers on Iran-Contra were called similar. If you think the government & media don't lie then you're the stupid one.

So the EVIL BUSH (and here I'm referring to Babs and Jenna, who
actually did the deed, pulled this off with ten or twenty people.

We don't know who pulled it off, though I very much doubt that Dubya was the mastermind.

Did it occur to you that for every so called expert (who strangely
enough wasn't there, as I was) there are a thousand who call them
blithering idoits.

Are there? How do you know that? Sounds like innuendo.

Like the experts who have PROVED beyond a shadow
of a doubt that it was a missle that hit the Pentagon. Wasn't it a
shame that thosands of people witnessed this?

Nobody's proved anything. But if Flight 77 really did hit it why won't they release the videos?

So you have any Friggen idea of what happens when MILLIONS of tuns of
building comes down? Uh? Or are you thinking 100 ranch houses piled
on top of each other.

First you have to consider what caused it to come down. The NIST report said there were no signs of the temperatures that are associated with significant weakening of steel. Think about that.

I am SICK of this stupidity. I am SICK of stupid morons who would
tell me that Al Qaeda is going to follow us home and I am SICK of
listening to jerks rant and rave about EVIL Bush.

The Bush administration proved itself very quick and competent at taking political advantage of 9/11. Go figure.

--

The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.

• H.L. Mencken

 

[Chato]

Like the experts who have PROVED beyond a shadow
of a doubt that it was a missle that hit the Pentagon. Wasn't it a
shame that thosands of people witnessed this?

Nobody's proved anything. But if Flight 77 really did hit it why
won't they release the videos?

You see jerk, two video's were released, but what does that have to do with the THOUSANDS of live and living witnesses?

Right, they were all paid off....

You PROVE how stupid you are with every stinking post. "Nobodys proved anything." Of course not...

Dave

 

[Clint Sanders]

Real science shows it isn't a "low probability" but rather almost guaranteed.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/911myths/4213805.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/911myths/

To put it bluntly, the logistics of organizing a conspiracy to rig explosives in the building to correspond to a plane-ramming attack on the other buildings, all the while keeping this whole plan secret and hidden as people continued to work in the building as the rigged the explosives is so god damned ridiculous, I question the sanity of anyone that even entertains the notion of it being possible.

Oh, they also managed to blow those explosives without any visual cues that high-explosives were going off inside the building - which would be another first for 9/11, BECAUSE THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Oh, but PLEASE go on about "low probability."

Low probability is infinitely greater than NO probability...

BTW, the surprise that tall buildings fall straight down shows the low IQ of the conspiracy believers. The don't fall like a toy block tower. Size doesn't scale. Cross-sectional area increases at a squared rate, while mass increases at a cubed rate. A block twice as wide/high will weigh 8 times more while only have 4 times the strength.

Gravity pulls one direction, straight down. When you have tons and tons of material held by structural properties determined by geometry, any compromise of that geometry will result in a fall straight down. These materials don't have enough strength to impart lateral movement on that much mass.

 

[marcuson]

You see jerk

I'm a bit surprised by this. I know we've had some lively discussions in the past but this is the first time I've seen you resort to insults. Having a bad day?

two video's were released

Which showed absolutely nothing. What about the other 80 or so? Obviously they DO show something and that's why we can't see them.

but what does that have to
do with the THOUSANDS of live and living witnesses?
Right, they were all paid off....

There weren't thousands, just a few hundred or so, most of whom were Pentagon employees. And nobody's saying an airborne object didn't hit it. Just that it couldn't have been a Boeing 757, piloted by Hani Hanjour who, according to his flight instructors, couldn't even solo a Cessna.

You PROVE how stupid you are with every stinking post. "Nobodys
proved anything." Of course not...

Temper, temper, now. See what George Nelson, Colonel, USAF (ret.) says:

"In 1989 I graduated from the Aircraft Mishap Investigation Course at the Institute of Safety and Systems Management at the University of Southern California. In addition to my direct participation as an aircraft accident investigator, I reviewed countless aircraft accident investigation reports for thoroughness and comprehensive conclusions for the Inspector General, HQ Pacific Air Forces during the height of the Vietnam conflict ...

"With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged".

http://www.physics911.net/georgenelson

And speaking of proof:

Rex Tomb, chief of investigative publicity for the FBI said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Osama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting bin Laden to 9/11.”

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

Do you realize that the black boxes from Flight 77, 11 and 175 have not been recovered. Why not?

And where are the videos from airport security security, and the tapes of the air traffic controllers conversations, and so on?

Also, you have failed to comment on the NIST report stating the temperatures of the WTC steel were not high enough to cause weakening.

--

The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.

• H.L. Mencken

 

[200mm]

--I would just like to see, one picture of any of the 4 planes.
Roger.

' Nothing is so firmly believed as what we least know'

 

[Chato]

Real science shows it isn't a "low probability" but rather almost
guaranteed.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/911myths/4213805.html
http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/911myths/

To put it bluntly, the logistics of organizing a conspiracy to rig
explosives in the building to correspond to a plane-ramming attack
on the other buildings, all the while keeping this whole plan secret
and hidden as people continued to work in the building as the rigged
the explosives is so god damned ridiculous, I question the sanity of
anyone that even entertains the notion of it being possible.

Oh, they also managed to blow those explosives without any visual
cues that high-explosives were going off inside the building - which
would be another first for 9/11, BECAUSE THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Oh, but
PLEASE go on about "low probability."

Low probability is infinitely greater than NO probability...

BTW, the surprise that tall buildings fall straight down shows the
low IQ of the conspiracy believers. The don't fall like a toy block
tower. Size doesn't scale. Cross-sectional area increases at a
squared rate, while mass increases at a cubed rate. A block twice as
wide/high will weigh 8 times more while only have 4 times the
strength.

Gravity pulls one direction, straight down. When you have tons and
tons of material held by structural properties determined by
geometry, any compromise of that geometry will result in a fall
straight down. These materials don't have enough strength to impart
lateral movement on that much mass.

Keep in mind, although our little Troll Marcusson likes to keep it separate, that the "plot" also involves the "missile" that hit the pentagon, which includes bribing the thousands of motorists that witnessed the event. Then there's all those Evil soldiers at NORAD who were a part of the scheme, not to mention the androids and robots who flew the planes into the WTC.

Why, why, Bush is SOOOOOOO evil, that Jenna and Babs planted the actual charges that took the buildings down...

Humoursly, he asked "why they never released the videos of the Pentagon attack." Now actually there were Two videos released. But why should I give him the links? Black after all is white.
Dave

 

[Chato]

You see jerk

I'm a bit surprised by this. I know we've had some lively discussions
in the past but this is the first time I've seen you resort to
insults. Having a bad day?

two video's were released

Which showed absolutely nothing. What about the other 80 or so?
Obviously they DO show something and that's why we can't see them.

You see JERK, this took place in RUSHOUR. There were THOUSANDS of motorists who watched in stunned silence, as Babs and Jenna bailed out...

Dave

 

[Chipsthe1]

To put it bluntly, the logistics of organizing a conspiracy to rig
explosives in the building to correspond to a plane-ramming attack
on the other buildings, all the while keeping this whole plan secret
and hidden as people continued to work in the building as the rigged
the explosives is so god damned ridiculous, I question the sanity of
anyone that even entertains the notion of it being possible.

Oh, they also managed to blow those explosives without any visual
cues that high-explosives were going off inside the building - which
would be another first for 9/11, BECAUSE THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE. Oh, but
PLEASE go on about "low probability."

Now there you go, Clint, introducing logic into the discussion. It is but a waste of time to do so, you will not convince the conspiracy theory believers. Logic, reason and such are not welcome in conspiracy theory groups.

Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame

 

[Chipsthe1]

Do you realize that the black boxes from Flight 77, 11 and 175 have
not been recovered. Why not?

It was, and still is, my understanding that the black boxes have been recovered.

--
Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame

 

[Chato]

Now there you go, Clint, introducing logic into the discussion. It is
but a waste of time to do so, you will not convince the conspiracy
theory believers. Logic, reason and such are not welcome in
conspiracy theory groups.

Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame

I've discussed this with Marcusson a dozen times or more. A simple fact that thousands of motorists caught in traffic on that horrific morning is something he simply dismisses, even though it nails a large part of his BS.

Might as well argue Black is White.

(Of course we all know that Babs and Jenna Bush did it....)

Dave

 

[marcuson]

You see JERK, this took place in RUSHOUR. There were THOUSANDS of
motorists who watched in stunned silence

Firstly, thousands on their way to work doesn't necessarily mean that thousands saw it. Upward field of view from a car seat is rather limited. Besides, those that did see something cannot be sure it was a 757. An airborne object buzzing overhead at 500 mph would look like a blur.

But even so, that is no reason to keep the other 80 videos from public view. What do you suppose is the reason for this secrecy?

Also, the early reports from different sources are revealing. ABC News cited eyewitnesses who said a business jet had crashed into the Pentagon. The first report on NBC said there had been an explosion near the Pentagon heliport but no mention of a plane.

This CNN reporter says he saw "no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon" and that all he saw were small bits you could pick up in your hands. He said "there are no large tail sections, wing sections, or a fuselage"...

http://thewebfairy.com/911/pentagon/index.html

And the testimony of Colonel George Nelson means nothing to you?

Think about this: Look at the entry hole at the Pentagon. It extends from the ground up. But if a 757 is placed on the ground in flight profile, ie, with the landing gear retracted, the nose will be about 12 feet above the ground. Add another foot or so, to enable it to be clear of the ground, and that's 13 feet, and that's about where the hole should be. So for the nose to impact the building at ground level, the plane would have had to approach with the engines buried in the ground. An IMPOSSIBILITY.

And drop it with the name calling. You're not helping your case one bit. As one erudite statesman put it, "Only he who has no argument resorts to name-calling. Name-calling is no substitute for rational discourse; name-calling is an admission of intellectual bankruptcy."

--

The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.

• H.L. Mencken

 

[marcuson]

It was, and still is, my understanding that the black boxes have been
recovered.

The 9/11 Commission Report states: “The CVRs and FDRs from American 11 and United 175” - the two planes that hit the Trade Center - “were not found.”

CVR = cockpit voice recorder FDR = flight data recorder

This is despite some firefighter reports to the contrary. If they were located the authorities are showing a great reluctance to release the data. I wonder why?

--

The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.

• H.L. Mencken

 

[Chipsthe1]

This is despite some firefighter reports to the contrary. If they
were located the authorities are showing a great reluctance to
release the data. I wonder why?

I suppose it depends on whom you choose to believe. One of the conspiracy theories has it that the black boxes were recovered by the FBI but are being held in secret. Other conspiracy theories hold that the black boxes were never recovered.

Personally I have little confidence in most conspriacy theories based on my observations over the years as to how difficult it is for people to keep their mouths shut about anything close to being a secret. These forums being a fine example what with all the reports about "secret new cameras" and such.

I am also of the opinion that conspiracy speculation abounds because it is so much more fun than simple explanations. The 9-11 conspiracy theories being a case in point. Since we do not think along the lines of the fanatic terrorists it is difficult for our minds to conceive that this idiot fringe group would choose to fly airplanes into buildings. The simple fact of the matter is that they did yet the public is somewhat reluctant to accept that. The elaborate, intricate conspiracy theory involving all sorts of convulated thinking and rationalization is more acceptable to many minds. Somehow it just seems more reasonable than the simple fact that the terrorists hijacked the planes on a suicide mission.
--
Shoot lots of pictures, always fill the frame

 

[marcuson]

Personally I have little confidence in most conspriacy theories based
on my observations over the years as to how difficult it is for
people to keep their mouths shut about anything close to being a
secret.

Did you read the above?

"In all of these cases, more than a handful of people were involved in planning, funding and carrying out the attacks. And yet no one spilled the beans or – if someone did – they were not believed."

The elaborate, intricate
conspiracy theory involving all sorts of convulated thinking and
rationalization is more acceptable to many minds. Somehow it just
seems more reasonable than the simple fact that the terrorists
hijacked the planes on a suicide mission.

Research shows false flag terrorist attacks are far more common than most think. Google "strategy of tension" and "operation gladio".

--

The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.

• H.L. Mencken

 

[dinoSnake]

Personally I have little confidence in most conspriacy theories based
on my observations over the years as to how difficult it is for
people to keep their mouths shut about anything close to being a
secret.

Did you read the above?

"In all of these cases, more than a handful of people were involved
in planning, funding and carrying out the attacks. And yet no one
spilled the beans or – if someone did – they were not believed."

The elaborate, intricate
conspiracy theory involving all sorts of convulated thinking and
rationalization is more acceptable to many minds. Somehow it just
seems more reasonable than the simple fact that the terrorists
hijacked the planes on a suicide mission.

Research shows false flag terrorist attacks are far more common than
most think. Google "strategy of tension" and "operation gladio".

Fine, but that would assume that in today's society of high technology:

• surveillance cameras in the streets, businesses and private
• camera phones / video recorders / cameras of bystanders, street pedestrians and tower workers
• activity levels inside towers, even on off-business hours
• ubiquitous communications (internet / cell phones / telecommunications)
• etc.

that not a single bystander would have seen, noticed or even "smelled" something "funny" going on while they "supposedly" planted all that detonation material (for sure in WTC 7, along with suggested theories on WTC 1 & 2). You cannot just "drop" dynamite into a building and expect it to fall, it must be place properly...and this takes time and preparation.

You ever seen the preparation done to intentional implosive demolition? It's staggering and takes months. The explosives must be attached to the load bearing members themselves - and what, those support columns are easy to get to in modern construction, especially with nobody noticing later??

Riiiight...

We can mention the highjacking of the planes, but I doubt that as there are lots of other ways to create the effect they planners would have wanted without going to destroy one of the largest districts responsible for the capital functioning of the very country that they wished to plot against - it's like cutting off both your legs, one arm and your nose just so you can collect unemployment.

It is simply not logical.

They could have car bombed a few important buildings in New York and Washington - say, the Stock Exchange and a bomb in front of the White House - with controlled detonations, made it look like a terrorist attack, and gotten the same level of response without as much collateral damage (and costs - you think that if the government was plotting against us that they would want to spend the huge sums of money spent to rebuilt Manhattan? Any military planner would go for highest results but lowest impact).

If our government was plotting against us then they would be greedy (well, even more than they are now!) and certainly would want the money for other projects / themselves, rather than pour the billions of dollars it will cost to fix that level of damages - not to mention the bailouts of the airlines, who would certainly be put on the hot seat for allowing it to happen (as occurred in reality (and where the true blame of all this lay, as the airlines cut back on security spending at a time when they were responsible for the programs)).

Bush's "reaction" to the initial wave of attacks is, utterly regretful, not a sign of conspiracy plotting. It is a sign of him, well, having the intelligence of a chipmunk. Regretfully George W. Bush, I feel, is a person with the lowest I.Q. who has held the office of President of the United States in the past 30 years - which is why he had such a "strong" support staff around him.

He NEEDED it.

Not to mention, if we indeed give G.W. Bush a bit of a benefit, if IIRC when his aides first reported the fact that terrorists were attacking the United States to him, they did not tell him the SEVERITY of the attacks. Now, if the timing of the Bush visit to the school is correct, before his arrival in the classroom he would have known about the first plane hitting the towers - the news of the second plane would have been simply adding additional information to existing knowledge, not at "Holy Cow!" initial response on camera.

Plus, there is always the possibility of plan failure – that is, backlash. There is no guarantee that the planners would have gotten what they wished for, as the government could have been blamed to such a level for ‘allowing’ these attacks to occur that it could have caused a level of public backlash to the severity up to causing a recall election.

All in all, it simply does not add up.

 

[Chato]

Plus, there is always the possibility of plan failure – that is,
backlash. There is no guarantee that the planners would have gotten
what they wished for, as the government could have been blamed to
such a level for ‘allowing’ these attacks to occur that it could have
caused a level of public backlash to the severity up to causing a
recall election.

All in all, it simply does not add up.

Every time theres a topic about the incompency of this administration - In this case the failure to warn the thousands of first responders, the workers, the volunteers, the residents of the downtown area, you can count on him to break the thread open and change the topic.

He does this EVERY TIME. Someone says one bad word about Bush or his administration and there's Marcusson posting away about how EVIL BUSH and the EVIL FBI, EVIL CIA, EVIL Americans, blew up the WTC.

You can set your clock on his always doing this.

Dave

 

[marcuson]

It is simply not logical.

They could have car bombed a few important buildings in New York and
Washington - say, the Stock Exchange and a bomb in front of the White
House - with controlled detonations, made it look like a terrorist
attack, and gotten the same level of response without as much
collateral damage (and costs - you think that if the government was
plotting against us that they would want to spend the huge sums of
money spent to rebuilt Manhattan? Any military planner would go for
highest results but lowest impact).

I'll address some of the other points later if there's time. For now, just consider this:

The WTC was a white elephant

[ http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/oct2001/nf2001105_5320.htm]

yet to dismantle it would have cost a fortune and it could not be demolished due to the asbestos problem:

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/asbestos.html

"The exact amount and distribution of the asbestos in the Towers remains unclear, like other details of the buildings' construction and history, but the evidence suggests that the cost of its removal may have rivaled the value of the buildings themselves."

How convenient 19 "terrorists" came along and solved everything.

--

The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.

• H.L. Mencken

 

[Chato]

That on a thread about thousands or workers being poisoned, the entire thread is now devoted to Marcusson and his fantasies about the thousands of evil Americans who live and breathe to kill other Americans.

How convenient that a docmented crime to deny first responders, workers and volunteers the necessary information to protect their health we are once again debating this stupidity.

Yup, I would say its very convenient.

Indeed, he does this every time such a thread comes up. You can set your clock on Marcusson showing up about five minutes after the word Bush appears.

Dave

 

[marcuson]

From the other thread, as it belongs here:

But this thread is about an important and relevant topic: Who was responsible
for hiding the information that the WTC site was dangerous, the air toxic,
and the final results will be far more dead people then 9/11 itself.

------------

DATE: May 6, 2007

FROM: Cate Jenkins, Ph.D.

GCB, HWID, OSW, OSWER, EPA

[email protected]

TO: Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, Chair, Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health, Congressman Jerrold Nadler, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney

COMPLAINT AND ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE OF pH FRAUD BY:
USGS, OSHA, ATSDR, NYC, EPA, and EPA-funded scientists

— 1. Falsification of corrosive pH data for WTC dust
— 2. Historical fraud by EPA of hazardous pH levels since 1980

This is a request for an investigation by the Senate Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health into the falsification of pH corrosivity data for World Trade Center dust. This corrosivity is attributed to be one of the causative agents in current respiratory disabilities and/or deaths of first responders, recovery workers, laborers, residents, and office workers. Corrosive dusts would also have facilitated the entry into the body via the respiratory system of other toxic substances found in WTC emissions.

Part 1 of this complaint contains new evidence of additional falsifications of pH testing of WTC dust, in addition to the allegations of fraud raised in my 8/22/06 and 10/25/06 complaints to your Congressional delegation as well as to the EPA Inspector General (IG).

Part 2 of this complaint documents the historical falsifications (dating back to 1980) for the pH levels known to cause corrosive human tissue damage. These falsified pH levels were incorporated into EPA's Hazardous Substances list under the National Contingency Plan/Superfund, and thus had a significant impact on the assessment of hazards of WTC dust.

Cate Jenkins, Ph.D., Environmental Scientist,
Generator and Characteristics Branch,
Hazardous Waste Identification Division, OSW
[email protected]

------------

PDF file entitled, "Request for an Investigation by the Senate Subcommittee on Superfund and Environmental Health into the Falsification of pH Corrosivity Data for World Trade Center Dust"

Volume 12 - June 2007

and

"Addendum: Request for an Investigation by the FBI into the Falsification of pH Corrosivity Data for World Trade Center Dust"

available at http://journalof911studies.com/

--

The men the American people admire most extravagantly are the most daring liars; the men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth.

• H.L. Mencken

 

[Chato]

But this thread is about an important and relevant topic: Who was responsible
for hiding the information that the WTC site was dangerous, the air toxic,
and the final results will be far more dead people then 9/11 itself.

Whatever the point of your data, while interesting is irrelevant. The EPA identified the debris at the WTC site as toxic and hazardous. Whatever errors there are in EPA standards, doesn't matter, because THEY regarded this stuff as deadly.

They claim they gave that information to the City and State, both of those entities in turn deny they recieved the data. While there was a Senate Hearing, where are the indictments for the crime of criminal negligence? The NYFD is calling for indictments - and they have GOOD grounds for being outraged that this Major and incredible story seems to have fallin right off the press.

Dave