Confirmed D60 to replace D30 at PMA

Interpolated is having more pixels than are actually physically present on the chip.

This is simply putting more physical pixels in the same space. This is easy to do for the same price, because the wafer area is the same, but smaller pixels produce more noise. The big pixels is what makes DSLR output special.

Also the lenses used would have to be exceptional putting more detail into the same area as well. Most probably would not be up to the task.

I really hope they don't do this.

Peter
Now if the chip is the same size as the current chip and 6MP, then
it will be higher noise
 
JCDos,

That's hard to disagree with, I did say that that would be a little too close to the 1D without the corresponding price being closer to $5500. The sensor size is a more difficult question, making it larger increases cost dramatically but how small are they willing to let the pixels get. It wil be a balance of cost and how much noise management has improved.

I have to beielve they would take the AF up a notch as that was the main functional issue with the D30 and likely a result of a product postioning decison gone wrong vs any lack in Canon's ability to make a good AF system.

p2g
I would hesitate to make any assumptions as to specific features
above and beyond what exists on the D30 except those clearly stated
(6MP sensor). To assume that the multiplier would be significantly
reduced would be a stretch. Assuming that the word "replace" was
appropriately used, I'd be amazingly surprised to find EOS 3-like
build quality in a camera that looks and acts more like an
Elan-series camera. I expect you're probably right about the
similar form factor, 3-4fps, and better AF module, though.

Remember how big of a deal the "modular construction" of the D30
was when it was first reviewed? Remember how it even caused people
to suspect that interchangeable sensors could be used? I suspect
that most of the "guts" of this new camera will be very D30-like,
and the sensor will probably have the same 1.6x multiplier. I also
suspect it will retain some of the less-loved features of the D30
as well, such as the big-dumb AF-assist light and "idiot modes."

OTOH, they could "release" a new camera with a smaller multiplier,
EOS-3 quality construction, and more options... but that camera
would not likely be one to "replace" the D30. I think what we're
all salivating over on this forums is that camera... a step
higher than the D30, but not "whole hog," particularly when the hog
costs so much... :-)

Than again, what do I know?
JCDoss
 
Canon wil obviously contine to support the D30 for the installed base. I don't know Canon's policy but 3-5 years is typical.
PG2

Great News for the pro users, but what about the rest of us. I
salivate as well about new "toys" but I just got my D30 4 months
ago and truely love the camera. When you say "discontinue" am I
to assume support and technical and etc.,etc.,etc.?

Matt
 
Is it just me, or would that announcement/availability be a spectacular blunder?

Announcing the discontinuance and replacement in Feb. but not being able to deliver the replacement until May or June would virtually kill all sales for at least three months.
I recieved a call back from my local Canon Pro shop yesterday in
regard to my D60 questions. My contact spoke to a regional and a
national sales manager and they both confirmed that Canon will be
discontinuing the D30 offically at PMA and replacing it with the
D60 at the same price (likely to mean same list price) with planned
availability in May or June. They also confirmed that it will be
6mp CMOS but didn't give any further details.

Not surprising except for the price but very interesting none the
less. One could reasonably specualte that this would also mean a
similar form factor, lower lens multiplier, 3-4 fps, & better AF
almost has to be an assumption. If the new low end slr rumors are
true it may also mean a more EOS 3 like body but I'd be a bit
surprised if they went that far at a "D30 Price" since that is a
big price gap but not so big of a feature gap for
non-journalist/actions types.

p2g
 
I have to beielve they would take the AF up a notch as that was the
main functional issue with the D30 and likely a result of a product
postioning decison gone wrong vs any lack in Canon's ability to
make a good AF system.
It was more likely the result of saving development costs by using pre exisiting parts from the EOS IX SLR which used APS film.
 
The sensor size is a more difficult question, making it
larger increases cost dramatically but how small are they willing
to let the pixels get.
That's the key point, assuming that your source is correct. I strongly suspect that if a new DSLR is designed to "replace" the D30 at the same price point, it will have a sensor with a 1.5x or 1.6x multiplier. If that sensor will have six megapixels, then either (a) the pixels will be smaller (something like 7um, but somebody else should do the math...) or (b) will require the involvement of interpolated pixels, like DavidP has been suspecting for a while now. Neither of these is a good thing.

But, this is all hocus-pocus at this stage, unless you've seen, handled, or have other evidence regarding this new camera you're holding back!

JCDoss
 
Usually when something comes out which replaces something that I have it drives me a little crazy, but not now, I'm really content with the D30.

For now I'll just concentrate on building a good lens collection slowly, I just got the 50mm 1.4 today to add to the 28.70mm, I'm on my way!

I used to change audio amplifiers as I was never satisfied until I got a Jeff Rowland amplifier.

I'm content with that and I'm content with the D30.

(but I've said this before!)
 
Ahto,

The info I passed on was that it would be approximately the same "list price". If my memory serves that means ~$3500. When the D30 came out street was $3000-$3500 for around 6 months or $500-1000 more which combined with being farther down the experience and volume curves could easily pay for a bigger sensor.

It think it is unlikely that Canon would follow Fuji down the primrose path to significant interpolation within the base spec. The question is ifthe pixels wil be smaller and by how much. I'm guessing they could go 20-30% without a siginificant increase in low-mid ISO noise given improvements in noise reduction and improvments in CMOS.

p2g
I think it is too positive to think that camera with 6MP CMOS
sensor and better build and functionality will be the same price as
D30 is. They may release it but I don't think it will bedirect D30
replacement.

Ahto
 
Every heard of Film? I'm using an original EOS 650 which is
compatable with all the EF Lenses.

I was pretty lucky to get what I got for my D30. I've seen
D30's in the local classifieds for $1700 with grip, they are only
going to drop further.

I also have a backup G2...

Matt
I took a gamble and sold my D30 a few weeks ago... in the mean
time I'll save money toward a purchase of a 1D. By the time I'm ready,
the 'replacement' should be announced, at that time I can make
a decision regarding a 1D or 'D60' purchase without having to deal
with selling a discontinued D30.

I'd sell NOW if you're even contemplating an upgrade.
Assuming I was looking to upgrade (which I am not), how am I
supposed to take photographs while I am weaiting 4-6 months to get
hold of this new camera. All those EOS lenses and strobes won't
help very much without a camera body.

My recommendation is to hold on to your D30 if you already have
one. If a D60 wonder camera does materialize, buy it in the fall or
early next year. Hold on to your D30 and use it as a backup.
 
The D30 is an easy camera to be content with. Even it's slow AF is easy to deal with if you anticipate it and look for areas with more contrast to focus on. For more contemplative photography it has few issues to push you towards something new. You have a great perspective from this standpoint as the most important thing is getting to shoot and improve so you can make the most out of what you have. There a plenty of people in this world that could outshoot me with a much less sophisticated camera, for the most part it's notthe camera that is limiting the quality of my photos.

p2g
Usually when something comes out which replaces something that I
have it drives me a little crazy, but not now, I'm really content
with the D30.

For now I'll just concentrate on building a good lens collection
slowly, I just got the 50mm 1.4 today to add to the 28.70mm, I'm on
my way!

I used to change audio amplifiers as I was never satisfied until I
got a Jeff Rowland amplifier.

I'm content with that and I'm content with the D30.

(but I've said this before!)
 
I think there are some semantic games with the "D30 Price" being played. I don't know that Canon ever has admitted to dropping the D30's SRP. They have offered rebates and sellers have sold at discount prices.

Given a $3,500 or so SRP, there is a lot of working room from today's $1,800 effective US street price (B&H say) after rebates.

Another factor is that they might shrink the pixel slightly and keep the multiplier down to 1.4 to 1.3X rather than 1.2X. With a little better design/process they could keep the noise down. Even if the noise PER PIXEL is slightly higher on a 6MP, assuming the noise is random, for the same size output the effective noise would be less.

Another BIG cost factor is that they may allow "dead" pixels. A big killer in yielding large die is the probably of a single or few defects. At 6 Megapixels, one could tolerate the occasional dead pixel and map it out with processing in the camera. The whole Bayer filter process means that to get a output pixel you are already processing the fool out of what comes out of a number of imager "Pixels."

At 3MP you don't have as much to work with for a reasonable size output (Say 8x10). As the number of pixels goes up, you can be more tolerant of an occasional bad pixel (somewhat analogous to grain in film). Based on my 25 years of Semiconductor experience, this the probably the way they will go. According to Phil's Review of the Nikon 5000, the other camera companies (but not the Nikon 5000 in his review) are mapping out bad pixels already on consumer cameras.

Every DRAM today has "redundancy" or else the yields would be next to zero. With redundancy the yield go from less than 1% to greater than 80%. You could not afford a PC today if you did not accept memories that used redundancy to map out bad pixels.

I'm guessing that an 8" wafer costs about $2500 to $3000. Finishing the wafers and packaging would about double that (depends on whether they can yield sort before or after packaging). A quick guess is that that will give about 35 to 40 displays at an UNYIELDED cost of about $150 dollars a piece. The cost per good device is given by dividing $150 by the Yield (if say 50% then the cost is $300).

Thus paradoxically it COULD be cheaper to build a 6MP device IF you accept a few scattered defects at 6MP but could not tolerate them a 3MP.

Karl
To do 6MP right, the chip would have to be much bigger. A 1.2
Multiplier would be expected. I don't know how they could do this
given current technology and hit D30 pricing. If this is really
6MP, nearly full framed, and D30 priced, it should destroy the
competition.

Red Flags:
Now if the chip is the same size as the current chip and 6MP, then
it will be higher noise and most current lenses would not
adequately resolve 6mp in that small space. This would be the case
if they chose marketing over good design.

Chip size is what I see as the main stumbling block.

Peter
and what are the "red flags" to look for in the specs. (not that
they wouldn't be pointed out here)
--Karl
 
well, my guess is that with 2 D30 ccd's 22x14.9 * 2 = 1.3X focal length muliplier.
I'll take that, if the price is right,

since nikon is comeing out with 1.5x consumer slr.... or save the pennies for a fuji full frame,.... but it better be a good build this time.

and on the AF sensor, the D30 had a aps size sensor,... this will be a regular AF sensor, what might have the same issue like the D1X due smaller ccd, but should really be usable this time, not quiet up to 1D, if a different DSP is used,...different clock rate, due difference in ccd vs. cmos,....

still don't understand why it take so long, if they already stopped production for the D30 ,... should be more like april....
cheers, Robert Schultz
The sensor size is a more difficult question, making it
larger increases cost dramatically but how small are they willing
to let the pixels get.
That's the key point, assuming that your source is correct. I
strongly suspect that if a new DSLR is designed to "replace" the
D30 at the same price point, it will have a sensor with a 1.5x or
1.6x multiplier. If that sensor will have six megapixels, then
either (a) the pixels will be smaller (something like 7um, but
somebody else should do the math...) or (b) will require the
involvement of interpolated pixels, like DavidP has been suspecting
for a while now. Neither of these is a good thing.

But, this is all hocus-pocus at this stage, unless you've seen,
handled, or have other evidence regarding this new camera you're
holding back!

JCDoss
-- http://www.RobsPhoto.com
 
Every heard of Film? I'm using an original EOS 650 which is
compatible with all the EF Lenses.
I gave up on film a while ago and I don't own either a film scanner or film based EOS body. I suspect many D30 owners are in the same position.
I was pretty lucky to get what I got for my D30. I've seen
D30's in the local classifieds for $1700 with grip, they are only
going to drop further.
Selling on Ebay seems to be the best bet. There is always someone who will overpay.
I also have a backup G2...
I had an Oly C3000Z but I sold it when I bought the D30. I decided I didn't like consumer digitals.Too slow and the images are too noisy.
However, the D30 would make a great backup body to either the 1D or D60.
 
. . . but I suspect marketing may win this one.
I can just imagine the marketers at work in Canon, thinking that if
they offer a D-30 with 6-mpixels (same AF and same 1.6x sensor
size) at a "street price" of $2500, that they'll win over many
people wanting to enter the digital SLR market.
No one could be that stupid--not even Canon upper level management. There's no way they will leave the D30 AF in that level camera. They have to know it was a mistake.

I think the new camera will be very close to the speculation you offered a while back. I have heard approximately those same specs from another source (6MP CMOS, 1.2X or 1.3X, EOS-3 AF, BP-511 battery, etc.).

Now I'm the one to say I could be wrong, but I think the new camera will be the D30 evolved into what it should be. In other words, all the strong points of the D30 (image quality!) with the problems fixed. However, I do not think it will be an EOS-1-level camera, but more in Elan7/EOS-3 range.

P.S.: There are two things from the 1D I hope to see in the "D60" that don't get mentioned in wish lists. The elimination of the D30 write/shoot buffer lockout (the camera should flush the buffer to the card regardless of what else it's doing). And the flash sync circuit tolerance of up to 250V (or at least 24V which is the industry standard).
 
Not going to happen. It would be a nightmare trying to make two sensors work together.
The sensor size is a more difficult question, making it
larger increases cost dramatically but how small are they willing
to let the pixels get.
That's the key point, assuming that your source is correct. I
strongly suspect that if a new DSLR is designed to "replace" the
D30 at the same price point, it will have a sensor with a 1.5x or
1.6x multiplier. If that sensor will have six megapixels, then
either (a) the pixels will be smaller (something like 7um, but
somebody else should do the math...) or (b) will require the
involvement of interpolated pixels, like DavidP has been suspecting
for a while now. Neither of these is a good thing.

But, this is all hocus-pocus at this stage, unless you've seen,
handled, or have other evidence regarding this new camera you're
holding back!

JCDoss
--
http://www.RobsPhoto.com
 
When people talk about higher resolution large physical size sensors, I keep thinking back to the Nikon D1X. Nikon put roughly 5.4MP into a sensor with the same physical size as the 2.7MP sensor of the original Nikon D1. Nikon clearly made a lot of improvements, not just to the sensor but to surrounding electronics that contributed to the noise when building the D1X.

I don't see why Canon can not make similar strides in their sensor and camera designs. A smaller sensor does not always mean more noise and less dynamic range. I'm sure most people agree that the photos from the D1X are a generation better than the photos from the D1.

My prediction is that Canon will make a 1.5x or 1.4x 6MP sensor. I don't think they'll go 1.2x or 1.3x. To keep the cost of the camera similar to the D-30s, they have to keep the physical sensor size similar. This will mean a smaller sensor 'cell'. I think Canon will make additional improvements to the cameras electronics, not just to the processing algorithms, to improve the noise characteristics of the sensor so that it matches or is close to that of the D-30's.

Joo
Just like "raw Mhz" seems to win the public in the current CPU war,
"raw Mpixels" is a big draw to many looking for digital cameras.
(Certainly in the consumer-end of the business).

I can just imagine the marketers at work in Canon, thinking that if
they offer a D-30 with 6-mpixels (same AF and same 1.6x sensor
size) at a "street price" of $2500, that they'll win over many
people wanting to enter the digital SLR market.

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong. If Canon DOES do this, I at least
hope they'll offer something (or at least announce it) later this
year that's based on large pixels . . . even a 1-D clone with CMOS
and less "robustness" (eg, an EOS-3 vs EOS-1v) would be a good
upgrade.
To do 6MP right, the chip would have to be much bigger. A 1.2
Multiplier would be expected. I don't know how they could do this
given current technology and hit D30 pricing. If this is really
6MP, nearly full framed, and D30 priced, it should destroy the
competition.

Red Flags:
Now if the chip is the same size as the current chip and 6MP, then
it will be higher noise and most current lenses would not
adequately resolve 6mp in that small space. This would be the case
if they chose marketing over good design.

Chip size is what I see as the main stumbling block.
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
--Canon D-30 & PowerShot S100Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture.
 
Just wanted to add that this is all speculation on my part. I did not hear any of this, the part about the sensor and electronics, from any Canon rep.

Joo
I don't see why Canon can not make similar strides in their sensor
and camera designs. A smaller sensor does not always mean more
noise and less dynamic range. I'm sure most people agree that the
photos from the D1X are a generation better than the photos from
the D1.

My prediction is that Canon will make a 1.5x or 1.4x 6MP sensor. I
don't think they'll go 1.2x or 1.3x. To keep the cost of the camera
similar to the D-30s, they have to keep the physical sensor size
similar. This will mean a smaller sensor 'cell'. I think Canon will
make additional improvements to the cameras electronics, not just
to the processing algorithms, to improve the noise characteristics
of the sensor so that it matches or is close to that of the D-30's.

Joo
Just like "raw Mhz" seems to win the public in the current CPU war,
"raw Mpixels" is a big draw to many looking for digital cameras.
(Certainly in the consumer-end of the business).

I can just imagine the marketers at work in Canon, thinking that if
they offer a D-30 with 6-mpixels (same AF and same 1.6x sensor
size) at a "street price" of $2500, that they'll win over many
people wanting to enter the digital SLR market.

Like I said, I hope I'm wrong. If Canon DOES do this, I at least
hope they'll offer something (or at least announce it) later this
year that's based on large pixels . . . even a 1-D clone with CMOS
and less "robustness" (eg, an EOS-3 vs EOS-1v) would be a good
upgrade.
To do 6MP right, the chip would have to be much bigger. A 1.2
Multiplier would be expected. I don't know how they could do this
given current technology and hit D30 pricing. If this is really
6MP, nearly full framed, and D30 priced, it should destroy the
competition.

Red Flags:
Now if the chip is the same size as the current chip and 6MP, then
it will be higher noise and most current lenses would not
adequately resolve 6mp in that small space. This would be the case
if they chose marketing over good design.

Chip size is what I see as the main stumbling block.
--
The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
http://thewilkinsons.crosswinds.net
--
Canon D-30 & PowerShot S100

Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture.
--Canon D-30 & PowerShot S100Maybe one day I'll take a decent picture.
 
When people talk about higher resolution large physical size
sensors, I keep thinking back to the Nikon D1X. Nikon put roughly
5.4MP into a sensor with the same physical size as the 2.7MP sensor
of the original Nikon D1. Nikon clearly made a lot of improvements,
not just to the sensor but to surrounding electronics that
contributed to the noise when building the D1X.

I don't see why Canon can not make similar strides in their sensor
and camera designs. A smaller sensor does not always mean more
noise and less dynamic range. I'm sure most people agree that the
photos from the D1X are a generation better than the photos from
the D1.
Perhaps Canon will increase the resolution the same way Nikon did with the D1x.
 
Its not just noise. Lenses are designed with film in mind I think numbers I saw was a good lens resolving around 100lines/mm. If a much denser sensor is used, it will be wasted by current lens technology.

1.3 would probably be pretty good for 6MP though. 1.5 seems dicey to me. But as far as I am concerned this is all speculation and rumour until I see the press release.

Peter
Given a $3,500 or so SRP, there is a lot of working room from
today's $1,800 effective US street price (B&H say) after rebates.

Another factor is that they might shrink the pixel slightly and
keep the multiplier down to 1.4 to 1.3X rather than 1.2X. With a
little better design/process they could keep the noise down. Even
if the noise PER PIXEL is slightly higher on a 6MP, assuming the
noise is random, for the same size output the effective noise would
be less.

Another BIG cost factor is that they may allow "dead" pixels. A
big killer in yielding large die is the probably of a single or few
defects. At 6 Megapixels, one could tolerate the occasional dead
pixel and map it out with processing in the camera. The whole
Bayer filter process means that to get a output pixel you are
already processing the fool out of what comes out of a number of
imager "Pixels."

At 3MP you don't have as much to work with for a reasonable size
output (Say 8x10). As the number of pixels goes up, you can be
more tolerant of an occasional bad pixel (somewhat analogous to
grain in film). Based on my 25 years of Semiconductor
experience, this the probably the way they will go. According to
Phil's Review of the Nikon 5000, the other camera companies (but
not the Nikon 5000 in his review) are mapping out bad pixels
already on consumer cameras.

Every DRAM today has "redundancy" or else the yields would be next
to zero. With redundancy the yield go from less than 1% to greater
than 80%. You could not afford a PC today if you did not accept
memories that used redundancy to map out bad pixels.

I'm guessing that an 8" wafer costs about $2500 to $3000.
Finishing the wafers and packaging would about double that (depends
on whether they can yield sort before or after packaging). A quick
guess is that that will give about 35 to 40 displays at an
UNYIELDED cost of about $150 dollars a piece. The cost per good
device is given by dividing $150 by the Yield (if say 50% then the
cost is $300).

Thus paradoxically it COULD be cheaper to build a 6MP device IF you
accept a few scattered defects at 6MP but could not tolerate them a
3MP.

Karl
To do 6MP right, the chip would have to be much bigger. A 1.2
Multiplier would be expected. I don't know how they could do this
given current technology and hit D30 pricing. If this is really
6MP, nearly full framed, and D30 priced, it should destroy the
competition.

Red Flags:
Now if the chip is the same size as the current chip and 6MP, then
it will be higher noise and most current lenses would not
adequately resolve 6mp in that small space. This would be the case
if they chose marketing over good design.

Chip size is what I see as the main stumbling block.

Peter
and what are the "red flags" to look for in the specs. (not that
they wouldn't be pointed out here)
--
Karl
 
How did Nikon do it?
When people talk about higher resolution large physical size
sensors, I keep thinking back to the Nikon D1X. Nikon put roughly
5.4MP into a sensor with the same physical size as the 2.7MP sensor
of the original Nikon D1. Nikon clearly made a lot of improvements,
not just to the sensor but to surrounding electronics that
contributed to the noise when building the D1X.

I don't see why Canon can not make similar strides in their sensor
and camera designs. A smaller sensor does not always mean more
noise and less dynamic range. I'm sure most people agree that the
photos from the D1X are a generation better than the photos from
the D1.
Perhaps Canon will increase the resolution the same way Nikon did
with the D1x.
 

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