for me, k10d = nearperfect - 2.5

[savagemikel]

Looks like a fantastic camera, as long as the picture quality is good.

For now, I'll assume it is as good as the 100/d80. Though I'm hoping for better high ISO noise.

The - 2.5 part:

The .5 is size. Unless they have some good reason for the size bump, I think it not a great decision. I recently purchased a k100d and really, really, really like its small take almost anywhere size.

• 1:

Battery decision. This was just a super poor choice on the part of pentax. Should have gone with a form factor which allowed AAs still. Ideally they would have upped the power circuity to be able to handle the rechargable lithiums.

Maybe that just was not chosen because of a power vs size & weight consideration?
I hope they had some VERY good reason for this route.

• 1:

No ttl support !! Come on! That is just a pain. I would have loved to see some of the great macro shots we are happily exposed to on these forums coming from the k10d.

This decision makes the TTL ringlight setups a lot of the people are using unusable with the k10d, doesn't it?

Well.. that about covers my whining. Since I recently gave in to a very good price on a k100d I am somewhat sated for a while.

So many other things about the k10d look soooooo good, that I am sure I'll end up with some variant of it down the road.

The real thing now is that image quality.
Am on the edge of my seat waiting for some real samples.

• mike

 

[Lance B]

I know some will agree with you, Mike, but for me none of the things you have given demerit points for worry me, so therefore I give the K10D 100/100. ;-)
--
Lance B

http://www.pbase.com/lance_b
GMT +10hours

 

[Darren M]

The - 2.5 part:

The .5 is size. Unless they have some good reason for the size
bump, I think it not a great decision. I recently purchased a
k100d and really, really, really like its small take almost
anywhere size.

Very simply, Pentax was losing more camera sales due to its small size than it was gaining from people who want smaller. There is very much a perception that a small camera isn't robust or "professional" enough when compared to a larger camera. It was easier and more effective to change the size of the camera than the perception of the average user.

Battery decision. This was just a super poor choice on the part of
pentax. Should have gone with a form factor which allowed AAs
still. Ideally they would have upped the power circuity to be able
to handle the rechargable lithiums.
Maybe that just was not chosen because of a power vs size & weight
consideration?
I hope they had some VERY good reason for this route.

Again, Pentax was losing far more buyers than it was attracting by going the AA route. Part of it was the perception of professionalism, but there are also very real functional advantages to a proprietry battery. These include lighter weight, greater capacity (I have read of a Nikon D2X getting 10 000 shots on a single charge) and probably greater reliability/less warranty issues. If Pentax can control what batteries people are using, they don't have to worry quite so much about spikes, or other odd things a poorly designed battery might do to sensitive electronics. When I first bought my *istD, I praised the AA/RCRV3 option; now it is two and a half years later and I am glad that Pentax has come to the realization.

No ttl support !! Come on! That is just a pain. I would have
loved to see some of the great macro shots we are happily exposed
to on these forums coming from the k10d.
This decision makes the TTL ringlight setups a lot of the people
are using unusable with the k10d, doesn't it?

I agree completely here, from the reading I have done, this is the biggest dissappointment I have with the K10D. Truthfully, I don't even have a TTL flash, but I was still dissappointed.

Well.. that about covers my whining. Since I recently gave in to a
very good price on a k100d I am somewhat sated for a while.
So many other things about the k10d look soooooo good, that I am
sure I'll end up with some variant of it down the road.

The K100D is a great camera, I am sure you will love it for a long time. I am also sure that it won't be long before you want to upgrade, but that is human nature.

--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com

Have camera, will travel

 

[Oleg_V]

Battery decision.
I hope they had some VERY good reason for this route.

Sure - SR takes alot of power to keep CCD floating in the magnetic field no matter SR switch is on or off.

And my -1:

Its impossible to fix CCD permanently by turning SR off! It will be free moving inside your camera even in case SR switch is off.

 

[Barry Fitzgerald]

Battery decision.
I hope they had some VERY good reason for this route.

Sure - SR takes alot of power to keep CCD floating in the magnetic
field no matter SR switch is on or off.

And my -1:
Its impossible to fix CCD permanently by turning SR off! It will be
free moving inside your camera even in case SR switch is off.

Maybe a reason KM used a motor...?

Anyhow battery issue, size etc...I think pentax have done well...very well...this may even attract a few KM users...like myself..later on.

--

 

[Roland Mabo]

Hi,

I understand your points but I believe we must accept some trade offs for other benefits - at least at this price. 999 USD with kit lens for a weather sealed body means that cust cutting in the corners has been unavoidable.

The .5 is size. Unless they have some good reason for the size
bump, I think it not a great decision. I recently purchased a
k100d and really, really, really like its small take almost
anywhere size.

The multitude of internal processors, memory chips, shake reduction system, dust protectionm etc. all takes upp size. Unfortunately. Pentax are the best in the industry to pack many things on a limited space. If this camera was designed by Canon or Nikon, it sure would have been much larger. Unfortunately, not even Pentax skills (just look at their history here) in the mini-department didn't help. It had to be the size it got.

Battery decision. This was just a super poor choice on the part of
pentax.

The camera needs the power of 3 CR-VR or 6 AA's. A bit unpractical with 6 AA's since most AA chargers only takes 4 at the same time, not 6. The cost oc 3 CR-VR's... oh dear, this would be an expensive camera in terms of batteries... So, therefore the choice of a special developed LiIon battery. They were working on an internal solution so it could be able to take 6 AA's in the case of an emergency, but they decided to drop it off because it costed too much. Cost cutting, again!

No ttl support !! Come on! That is just a pain.

It is, but again - cost cutting.

The P-TTL system was introduced in the late 90's, so it's not a new system. It's actually quite old now... Pentax are working on a P-TTL ring flash, I hope for a solution next year, or hopefully earlier.

Take care
R

 

[pentaxowner]

I guess I'll have to be much more careful with k10d than my DS.
--
Fero, London
My blog: http://feronovak.blogspot.com/index.html

 

[Oleg_V]

Hi,
I understand your points but I believe we must accept some trade
offs for other benefits - at least at this price.

As for me

• I don't care about the price of a good camera
• I don't care about trade of between removed featuresthat I need and added features that I don't need

Why pentax can't produce at least one camera without such strange trade offs ?

 

[hcoley]

No ttl support !! Come on! That is just a pain.

It is, but again - cost cutting.
The P-TTL system was introduced in the late 90's, so it's not a new
system. It's actually quite old now... Pentax are working on a
P-TTL ring flash, I hope for a solution next year, or hopefully
earlier.

Take care
R

I would think if demand increases with enough DL/DL2, K100D/K110D and K10D in the hands of users, we will start seeing more third party options also for P-TTL. Unfortunately it will require our patience until such time.

 

[Darren M]

You might not care about the cost, but the vast majority of users do and therefore Pentax has to decide what to keep and what to drop. They are trying to build something that hundreds of thousands will buy, not an indvidual users such as yourself will. If you want a cost no object DSLR, get a Canon 1DSmk2, f you want intelligent compromise and terrific value, consider the K10D.

--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com

Have camera, will travel

 

[savagemikel]

While I'm not so silly as to think that perception and marketing are not key factors in product design, I hope you are wrong about pentax choosing the options they did for these reasons.
I like to think that functional design would have been the major driving factor.
I just find that more.... I don't know...... noble... somehow.. I guess.
Kind of silly I know...
But hey. That's me.

Also, I am wondering if these are just your perceptions for if you have seen actual market analysis which supports these ideas as decision makers for pentax?

• mike

 

[muxis]

• I think the camera size is a compromise to add weather-sealing. Personally, I think that's awesome, esp. when shooting outdoor sports.

• As for batteries, I embrace the change. I bet the proprietary battery has a chip which gives accurate readout on the charge level. But the possibility to use rechargeable crv-3 would've been a big plus. Also, I'd rather have batteries that can last 500+ shots in one go. I don't think AA compares to crv-3 or Lithiums.

• Yea, removing TTL is unfortunate.

I'm still very excited about this camera though. Even though it uses SD cards instead of CF. I know SD is faster, but now I have to buy them. The increase in write/read speed should be worth the investment.

Also:

• SR, pentaprism, ergonomic grip, USM(?)

• Dedicated dials for aperture/ shutter speed. Or am I the only one that still shoots on M and changes both dials at the same time? That's the main reason I'm not buying the k100d.

• white balance bracketing

• no annoying 'portrait, landscape, sports, nightime' shooting modes. Though I'm skeptical (or just not understand) about the new Sv, X, etc modes.

I think it'll be great for PJ work. Anybody know anything about the K1d? Or is that just wishful thinking?

 

[savagemikel]

Hi,
I understand your points but I believe we must accept some trade
offs for other benefits - at least at this price. 999 USD with kit
lens for a weather sealed body means that cust cutting in the
corners has been unavoidable.

Yes, surely. And I might add that nearperfect - 2.5 is a might fine score. Shows that for me at least they have done a fine job. From the posts here that seems true for a great majority.

The .5 is size. Unless they have some good reason for the size
bump, I think it not a great decision. I recently purchased a
k100d and really, really, really like its small take almost
anywhere size.

The multitude of internal processors, memory chips, shake reduction
system, dust protectionm etc. all takes upp size. Unfortunately.
Pentax are the best in the industry to pack many things on a
limited space. If this camera was designed by Canon or Nikon, it
sure would have been much larger. Unfortunately, not even Pentax
skills (just look at their history here) in the mini-department
didn't help. It had to be the size it got.

I had not considered the weather seals. That is an interesting point. I was thinking of thermal dissipation issues and marketing alone as the possible key factors. I don't think in general the electronics take up that much more room than the k100d.

However, I guess you do need wiring for all the extra switches so that isn't really fare of me either.

I can live with the size increase if it is what was needed and not just marketing. And even if it was marketing, it's not a deal breaker.

Battery decision. This was just a super poor choice on the part of
pentax.

The camera needs the power of 3 CR-VR or 6 AA's. A bit unpractical
with 6 AA's since most AA chargers only takes 4 at the same time,
not 6. The cost oc 3 CR-VR's... oh dear, this would be an expensive
camera in terms of batteries... So, therefore the choice of a
special developed LiIon battery. They were working on an internal
solution so it could be able to take 6 AA's in the case of an
emergency, but they decided to drop it off because it costed too
much. Cost cutting, again!

Still, seems like more R&D and production money in the proprietary design than just doing the circuitry to handle off the shelf rechargable lithiums.

Probably a poor assumption on my part though as proprietary lithium systems are so widely used that I'm sure the expertise and production to use this was relatively cheap.
Probably just the physical size to power thing more than anything else.

No ttl support !! Come on! That is just a pain.

It is, but again - cost cutting.
The P-TTL system was introduced in the late 90's, so it's not a new
system. It's actually quite old now... Pentax are working on a
P-TTL ring flash, I hope for a solution next year, or hopefully
earlier.

Yes again on having to make choices for cost. But... I think they should have included this even if it was a few dollars more per camera.

Take care
R

You too Roland. You are always a 'must read' for me when I see your name on the forum. Thanks for all the info and insight.

• mike

 

[savagemikel]

Battery decision.
I hope they had some VERY good reason for this route.

Sure - SR takes alot of power to keep CCD floating in the magnetic
field no matter SR switch is on or off.

I think this is incorrect. I don't think the SR uses a lot of power either way, on or off.

And my -1:
Its impossible to fix CCD permanently by turning SR off! It will be
free moving inside your camera even in case SR switch is off.

I am sure this is not a design consideration which slipped by them. Otherwise any shot taken with SR off would appear off axis toward the bottom of the frame.
No.... I'm sure this is seen to.

• mike

 

[savagemikel]

Battery decision.
I hope they had some VERY good reason for this route.

Sure - SR takes alot of power to keep CCD floating in the magnetic
field no matter SR switch is on or off.

And my -1:
Its impossible to fix CCD permanently by turning SR off! It will be
free moving inside your camera even in case SR switch is off.

Maybe a reason KM used a motor...?

I think the motors would actually use more power.

Anyhow battery issue, size etc...I think pentax have done
well...very well...this may even attract a few KM users...like
myself..later on.

Yes. I think they have done very well too. Nearperfect - 2.5 is not a bad score.

 

[savagemikel]

• I think the camera size is a compromise to add weather-sealing.

Personally, I think that's awesome, esp. when shooting outdoor
sports.

YES !! This is my number one favorite surprise about the k10d. I know there were rumors; but, I wasn't really on board with them at this price point. This is an AWESOME feature. I hope it works as advertised.

• As for batteries, I embrace the change. I bet the proprietary

battery has a chip which gives accurate readout on the charge
level. But the possibility to use rechargeable crv-3 would've been
a big plus. Also, I'd rather have batteries that can last 500+
shots in one go. I don't think AA compares to crv-3 or Lithiums.

Yeah, when I say AA I am thinking lithium or CRV-3 or RCRV-3. I am referring to the form factor generally and so a lot of possibilities.

I can see reasons why they would have gone proprietary from a functional design perspective.
To me the 500 shots seems low compared to other cameras though, doesn't it?

• Yea, removing TTL is unfortunate.

I'm still very excited about this camera though. Even though it
uses SD cards instead of CF. I know SD is faster, but now I have to
buy them. The increase in write/read speed should be worth the
investment.

I've no big CF investment. So, I'm just as happy with SD. Smaller and from what I have read a physically superior design.

Also:

• SR, pentaprism, ergonomic grip, USM(?)

• Dedicated dials for aperture/ shutter speed. Or am I the only one

that still shoots on M and changes both dials at the same time?
That's the main reason I'm not buying the k100d.

• white balance bracketing

• no annoying 'portrait, landscape, sports, nightime' shooting

modes. Though I'm skeptical (or just not understand) about the new
Sv, X, etc modes.

I think it'll be great for PJ work. Anybody know anything about the
K1d? Or is that just wishful thinking?

Yeah... many really nice looking features on this cam.

• mike

 

[Roland Mabo]

It would have been cheap for Pentax to make it to take CR-V3's or AA's, BUT...

Taking LiIon AND CR-V3's AND AA's was too expensive, it needed a special solution for this and this was developed but trashed because it costed too much to produce. It would have raisen the price on the camera and then good bye price-advantage...

LiIon is a must to power the electronics. Supersonic drive, dust-removal, anti-shake, all the internal processors, the 22 bit A/D, the PRIME engine and lots of other stuff. 44 AA's or 2 CR-V3's wasn't enough. It needed 3 x CRV3 = 6 AA's. Pentax felt it was too unpractical, too expensive for the users having to buy 3 sets of CR-V3's (or three battery chargers for CR-VR, they only support one CR-VR each) and 6 AA batteries with 2 chargers (1 x 4 and 1 x 2).
And going for LiIon + all this... too expensive.

So, LiIon it was.
I think most will be happy...

Take care
R

 

[Godfrey]

I can't judge the camera until I have one, but the feature mix fits my uses.

• I only rarely use flash and use a manual flash unit when I do, don't own a dedicated TTL flash unit of any kind, so that's not an issue for me.

• The increased convenience of a single battery with a lot of power is appealing, makes it easier to change quickly in the field, while the need to carry a charger and maintain the battery when traveling is a disadvantage. But overall not a big deal either way.

• I'd love it to be the same size and weight as the *ist DS but I think the AS and weather-sealing are worth the increase. It's still smaller and lighter than my old Canon 10D, by a healthy difference, and the lenses haven't changed (and now have the benefit of image stabilization...) so I'll accept this without too much.

Once I have one, I'll see what bugs me. ;-)

Godfrey

 

[Darren M]

I haven't seen any well controlled studies, but I know that in my contacts with different photographers, the size is almost always mentioned and almost never in a positive way and that the battery solution has been brougth up on a number of ocassions, none of them in a positive light. These are from Canon, Nikon and Olympus users alike.

As for hoping that Pentax would not design to please perceptions and marketing, well I am actually not quite with you there either. The biggest complaint many Pentax users have is the poor marketing; maybe it is time they take their marketing seriously? More Pentax bodies sold will mean more lenses becoming available, both from Pentax as well as third party manufacturers. I agree with you that I want the changes to be made with performance in mind, but if they don't hurt performance and they help with sales/marketing I am all for them.

--



http://www.trekearth.com/members/Darren/photos/
http://www.darrenmelrose.com

Have camera, will travel

 

[AndrewF]

Good points.

For me, these are all non-issues. I think the size for what we're getting is reasonable and the battery solution pentax has come up with is consistant with trying to keep this as small as they could for what's stuffed in it (6 AA batteries or 3 CRV3 batteries would take up a lot more room than 1 proprietary Li Ion battery). And because I don't really use flash all that often, TTL isn't really a concern - again, just from my perspective.

What I was hoping for and didn't get was 5 fps. This isn't a deal-breaker in the least though. The other thing that would have been nice is a magnesium alloy body - but that's just cosmetics AFAIC and would have probably increased the price.

What I'm really impressed with is being able to shoot 12 raw/unlimited except by card-size jpg continuous shooting.

After almost a year of abusing my DS2, the K10D has pretty much everything I was hoping for in an upgrade.
--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andrewfaires/