PC Watch posts megapixel comparison

[Robert Leigh]

Copied from the Sony talk section.

Rodger

Posted by: Robert Maclellan At: 9:47:00 AM, 20/Mar/2000 (44 mins ago)

I was talking to a Sony technical rep on Sunday and he told me that there IS a limit to the capacity of the Memorystick....1.3Gb!!! Which they are aiming at reaching by around this time 2002! Prices should be dropping by then thanks to increased production and the flood of Memorystick devices that will be released in the coming months which will bring demand up to 10x the market for CF cards or other memory storage options. With increased production, costs per megabyte will fall for memorysticks while those other storage options will plateau out or be dropped entirely.

Soon every desktop will be able to have a memorystick port which will be built into aftermarket keyboards. Just slide the memorystick into port at the side of the keyboard and...you have a direct connection and a new drive on your PC!!

The Sony Vaio 505 already has it built in. Soon you will be able to download an MP3 file from your PC, place the memorystick in your MemoryStick-Walkman (due out any time now, they are waiting for the 25th anniversary) while you're walking around or, when you get into your car, pop the memorystick into your sound system and continue to get CD quality skip free music.and that is just the beginning.

Consider how cheap and universal the floppy disk is today! It and the drives weren't always cheap. I remember personal computers with tape storage!! But soon every computer came with them and the price dropped until now, as the Mavica people will tell you, they are practically free. The floppy disk is a cross-platform storage medium and the Memorystick will not only cross computer platforms but will cross digital devices and allow seamless data transfer and compatibility!

 

[Peter iNova]

Trying to imagine this. That must be a humungous printer Do they do
the whole thing at once, or in strips?

Strips. Vertical. Only 8 feet wide each by 16 feet tall. Placed on the wall like super wallpaper. Here is about 2/3 of it in the attraction



We did another one for a backdrop behind an actual not-flown engineering version of the Viking Lander.

-iNova

 

[Ulysses]

Roger -

While we're at it and talking about the future of Memory Stick, let's not forget the deals that have recently been struck with both Lexar to make more and faster Memory Sticks, as well as with Intel for integrating Memory Stick technology into future PCs.

And for what it's worth, carrying a pack of several Memory Sticks (one with your still shots, another with some videos, and still others with your favorite MPEG music) might as well be as easy as carrying a packet of Wrigley's chewing gum in your shirt pocket. How many CF cards or fat plastic-encased SM cards would you want to do that same thing with?

It's going to be an interesting couple of years for Memory Stick.

Glad to oblige. First, Memory Sticks are the least expensive of the
three major types. For example:

Memory Stick, 64 MB, $89.95
http://www.video-direct.com/closeouts.html
http://www.computers4sure.com/product.asp?ProductId=90931&

Smart Media, 64MB, $174.95
http://www.buy.com/comp/product.asp?sku=10241716

Compact Flash, 224MB, $889 (national advertisements)

In addition to price, Memory Sticks have a number of other advantages
over CF and SM:

1. The most compact and space efficient of the various memory cards
2. The most rugged of available memory cards
3. Protected contacts
4. Has write protect
5. Fewer connecting pins
6. Less wear on contacts during insertion and removal
7. Small enough to fit into adapters for floppies and other memory cards
8. Up to 1GB capacity without increasing size of card
9. Made available for use in hundreds of different electronic devices by
approximately 40 mfrs. This means that those who own Memory Sticks will
not have to buy additional ones when they purchase any of these devices.
It also means that CF and SM may become endangered species if digicam
manufacturers decide that MS is the way to go.

“Of all the memory formats we've played with to date (December,
1999), we actually found ourselves liking the Memory Stick the
most.” Imaging Resource

“The memory Stick technology will likely become the predominate
flash memory medium for digicams.” Steve Giannoni

Rodger

 

[Robert Leigh]

Only thing you have to watch out for is your little sister or brother saying "What kind of gum did you buy? I tried chewing everyone of them and they all tasted terrible. I had to spit them out and flush them down the toilet!

Rodger

 

[misha]

Glad to oblige. First, Memory Sticks are the least expensive of the
three major types. For example:

Memory Stick, 64 MB, $89.95
http://www.video-direct.com/closeouts.html
http://www.computers4sure.com/product.asp?ProductId=90931&

Smart Media, 64MB, $174.95
http://www.buy.com/comp/product.asp?sku=10241716

Compact Flash, 224MB, $889 (national advertisements)

You are not presenting the price facts quite straight - granted, the $90 for 64MB is lower than both Smartmedia and Compactflash, but these two types are made by different manufacturers with different prices - of course, you can pick the most expensive brands to make the contrast look starker, but if one checked prices for 64MB Sandisk cards - a major producer - they'd see that buy.com has them for $123 and $131 respectively. As for the price for 224MB, the comparison is not at all fair, since Memory sticks are still very far from that capacity, and this CF card is still new and geared to professionals.

As for more convenient size, I'm not sure about that. I find the square CF cards to be a better fit for small camera bag pockets than the long M-sticks (though the difference is, admittedly, not that significant).

Misha

 

[Bryan Bennett]

Can anyone comment on the pics from the Epson 900? I thought they looked very impressive, MUCH better than I remember from the 850Z (noise is GONE!). This is absolutely the first time I have given any kind of serious consideration to an Epson camera...I have the 1200 scanner & 1200 printer, which, in my book, have NO competition (within their range...and possibly a couple of others ;-), but I've never considered their cameras up to the challenge...until now. So am I losing it or what? I look at the Epson 900 images, and I'm blown away. All views welcome!

Bryan Bennett
BelaVizio

 

[mikec]

Rodger Carter wrote:

I'll preface this reply by freely admitting that I don't know great deal about memory stick. That said, my comments are imbedded below.

Copied from the Sony talk section.

Rodger

Posted by: Robert Maclellan At: 9:47:00 AM, 20/Mar/2000 (44 mins ago)

I was talking to a Sony technical rep on Sunday and he told me that there
IS a limit to the capacity of the Memorystick....1.3Gb!!! Which they are
aiming at reaching by around this time 2002! Prices should be dropping by
then thanks to increased production and the flood of Memorystick devices
that will be released in the coming months which will bring demand up to
10x the market for CF cards or other memory storage options. With
increased production, costs per megabyte will fall for memorysticks while
those other storage options will plateau out or be dropped entirely.

Soon every desktop will be able to have a memorystick port which will be
built into aftermarket keyboards. Just slide the memorystick into port at
the side of the keyboard and...you have a direct connection and a new
drive on your PC!!

I'm going to differ on this one. What determines product acceptance is perceived pervasiveness. Almost 5 years ago, we demonstrated the ability to have "SmartCard" readers in keyboards that could be everything from password authenticators to id cards to E-cash. There are all kinds of prototypes of these sorts of devices floating around. The fact of the matter is the VAST, VAST majority of keyboards out there and sold come from the system manufacturer, who is dealing with razor thin (and dropping) product margins. Unless Sony is giving away the electronics, manufacturers will have to be forced into adopting a standard like this.

Secondly, the fact that something is possible and available, doesn't make it inevitable or even likely. At last check, HP, IBM, Compaq, Dell, made up the lions share of new system sales. Do any of these desktop manufacturers have announced (or unannounced) plans to ship Memory Stick enabled keyboards with their systems? Even as an option?

The Sony Vaio 505 already has it built in. Soon you will be able to
download an MP3 file from your PC, place the memorystick in your
MemoryStick-Walkman (due out any time now, they are waiting for the 25th
anniversary) while you're walking around or, when you get into your car,
pop the memorystick into your sound system and continue to get CD quality
skip free music.and that is just the beginning.

All of which I can do today with greater capacity using CF.

Consider how cheap and universal the floppy disk is today! It and the
drives weren't always cheap. I remember personal computers with tape
storage!! But soon every computer came with them and the price dropped
until now, as the Mavica people will tell you, they are practically free.
The floppy disk is a cross-platform storage medium and the Memorystick
will not only cross computer platforms but will cross digital devices and
allow seamless data transfer and compatibility!

Today, I take pictures on 64Mb Lexar CF chip, which also contains my PowerPoint presentation, some MP3s, etc. I can pop the CF chip into my laptop -- any laptop from any manufacturer with a PCMCIA slot -- edit my pictures, and play the MP3, and update the powerpoint. I can then pop the chip into my PDA, listen to the MP3s, fiddle with the photos, and rehearse my powerpoint pres. Finally I can throw the chip into a dedicated MP3 player. Seems to me that I already am doing today what your promising for Memory Stick.

Until it becomes cheap as chewing gum, why would I switch. And of course, if people don't switch, it won't become as cheap as chewing gum.

Sony has a long history (can anybody say "Betamax"?) of producing interesting technology that doesn't become the adopted standard. (How many other camera manufacturers do you know with diskette drives in the cameras?)

How about a little less marketing hype and a little more objective reasoning?

Mike.

(By the way, I acutally do like the memory stick technology. I'm just not convinced that it's going to supplant CF in the foreseeable future.)

 

[Robert Leigh]

The best price you've found stil seems to be 37% higher than MS for the same MB--not exactly a steal. Below are some comments by Bob McClellan about the MS from another forum.

Rodger

Posted by: Robert Maclellan At: 9:47:00 AM, 20/Mar/2000 (44 mins ago)

I was talking to a Sony technical rep on Sunday and he told me that there IS a limit to the capacity of the Memorystick....1.3Gb!!! Which they are aiming at reaching by around this time 2002! Prices should be dropping by then thanks to increased production and the flood of Memorystick devices that will be released in the coming months which will bring demand up to 10x the market for CF cards or other memory storage options. With increased production, costs per megabyte will fall for memorysticks while those other storage options will plateau out or be dropped entirely.

Soon every desktop will be able to have a memorystick port which will be built into aftermarket keyboards. Just slide the memorystick into port at the side of the keyboard and...you have a direct connection and a new drive on your PC!!

The Sony Vaio 505 already has it built in. Soon you will be able to download an MP3 file from your PC, place the memorystick in your MemoryStick-Walkman (due out any time now, they are waiting for the 25th anniversary) while you're walking around or, when you get into your car, pop the memorystick into your sound system and continue to get CD quality skip free music.and that is just the beginning.

Consider how cheap and universal the floppy disk is today! It and the drives weren't always cheap. I remember personal computers with tape storage!! But soon every computer came with them and the price dropped until now, as the Mavica people will tell you, they are practically free. The floppy disk is a cross-platform storage medium and the Memorystick will not only cross computer platforms but will cross digital devices and allow seamless data transfer and compatibility!

 

[misha]

So we are to assume that the memory stick is superior because a Sony rep said so? People are taking distant promises for a fact, so one would think that 1Gb sticks are already here - that remains to be seen, as well as the capacities CF cards will reach by that time. As for the future proliferation of MS in various devices, you fail to mention the fact that CF and SM cards have long been used in MP3 players, PDA, printers, etc. - at this point they are still much more common than MS equipment. (As for the CF price I quoted ($131), it's the lowest at buy.com, but not on the market - it is currently $118)

The best price you've found stil seems to be 37% higher than MS for the
same MB--not exactly a steal. Below are some comments by Bob McClellan
about the MS from another forum.

Rodger

Posted by: Robert Maclellan At: 9:47:00 AM, 20/Mar/2000 (44 mins ago)

I was talking to a Sony technical rep on Sunday and he told me that there
IS a limit to the capacity of the Memorystick....1.3Gb!!! Which they are
aiming at reaching by around this time 2002! Prices should be dropping by
then thanks to increased production and the flood of Memorystick devices
that will be released in the coming months which will bring demand up to
10x the market for CF cards or other memory storage options. With
increased production, costs per megabyte will fall for memorysticks while
those other storage options will plateau out or be dropped entirely.

Soon every desktop will be able to have a memorystick port which will be
built into aftermarket keyboards. Just slide the memorystick into port at
the side of the keyboard and...you have a direct connection and a new
drive on your PC!!

The Sony Vaio 505 already has it built in. Soon you will be able to
download an MP3 file from your PC, place the memorystick in your
MemoryStick-Walkman (due out any time now, they are waiting for the 25th
anniversary) while you're walking around or, when you get into your car,
pop the memorystick into your sound system and continue to get CD quality
skip free music.and that is just the beginning.

Consider how cheap and universal the floppy disk is today! It and the
drives weren't always cheap. I remember personal computers with tape
storage!! But soon every computer came with them and the price dropped
until now, as the Mavica people will tell you, they are practically free.
The floppy disk is a cross-platform storage medium and the Memorystick
will not only cross computer platforms but will cross digital devices and
allow seamless data transfer and compatibility!

 

[Robert Maclellan]

Yes, but the death knell for CF cards will be when the Music industry adopts Memorystick because of the Sony MagicGate anti-piracy scheme. CF cards are incapable of protecting the copyright material on the card and so the standard will never be CFcards. The new MP3 players will all be Memorystick like the Memorystick Walkman. The digital camera industry is tiny compared to the money and muscle of the music industry.

As far as devices are concernend, you also haven't heard about the Memorystick digital video camera and Digital still camera that are only slightly larger than the memorystick itself. They will both come with a swivel lens and an LCD in a package about 2.5" x 1/2" x 1/4"...small enough to wear on your lapel or poke through a button hole!

The other deficiency of CF cards comes from the need to change the form factor (Type I and Type II) as capacity increases. As you know, cameras that only take Type I CF cards hit a capacity ceiling fairly quickly. Even Smartmedia cameras retain the same form factor and only need to upgrade the drivers in the camera to access higher capacity cards. Sure, more capacity can be squeezed into CF cards but, how soon will it be before there are Type III CF cards (like there are Type III PC Cards) and Type II cameras will be dinosaurs like the Type I cameras are now!

So we are to assume that the memory stick is superior because a Sony rep
said so? People are taking distant promises for a fact, so one would
think that 1Gb sticks are already here - that remains to be seen, as well
as the capacities CF cards will reach by that time. As for the future
proliferation of MS in various devices, you fail to mention the fact that
CF and SM cards have long been used in MP3 players, PDA, printers, etc.

• at this point they are still much more common than MS equipment. (As

for the CF price I quoted ($131), it's the lowest at buy.com, but not on
the market - it is currently $118)

 

[Robert Leigh]

So we are to assume that the memory stick is superior because a Sony rep said so? People are taking distant promises for a fact, so one would think that 1Gb sticks are already here - that remains to be seen, as well as the capacities CF cards will reach by that time. As for the future proliferation of MS in various devices, you fail to mention the fact that CF and SM cards have long been used in MP3 players, PDA, printers, etc. - at this point they are still much more common than MS equipment. (As for the CF price I quoted ($131), it's the lowest at buy.com, but not on the market - it is currently $118)

NS: OK - $118, that’s still more than 30% higher than MS---and MS prices are expected to continue dropping significantly as production increases. Furthermore, you never addressed the numerous advantages I mentioned in a previous post. Just as a reminder:

1. The most compact and space efficient of the various memory cards
2. The most rugged of available memory cards
3. Protected contacts
4. Has write protect
5. Fewer connecting pins
6. Less wear on contacts during insertion and removal
7. Small enough to fit into adapters for floppies and other memory cards
8. Up to 1.3GB capacity without increasing size of card

9. Made available for use in hundreds of different electronic devices by approximately 40 mfrs. This means that those who own Memory Sticks will not have to buy additional ones when they purchase any of these devices. It also means that CF and SM may become endangered species if digicam manufacturers decide that MS is the way to go.

“Of all the memory formats we've played with to date (December, 1999), we actually found ourselves liking the Memory Stick the most.” Imaging Resource

“The memory Stick technology will likely become the predominate flash memory medium for digicams.” Steve Giannoni

If you believe there are some areas where CF or SM are technically superior to MS, let’s hear them.

Rodger

 

[Robert Leigh]

I imagine Bob will jump in here if he reads your post, and he certainly knows more about this subject than I, but several things do jump out as I read it.

“Unless Sony is giving away the electronics, manufacturers will have to be forced into adopting a standard like this.”

ANS: Approximately 40 different manufacturers of electronic devices have already signed agreements with Sony for production of MS and use of MS in their electronic products. I don’t believe any force was involved. Perhaps they were just covering all bases, but if they decide that the MS technology is better than CF or SM, CF and SM may someday be a footnote in electronics history.

“Secondly, the fact that something is possible and available, doesn't make it inevitable or even likely. At last check, HP, IBM, Compaq, Dell, made up the lions share of new system sales. Do any of these desktop manufacturers have announced (or unannounced) plans to ship Memory Stick enabled keyboards with their systems? Even as an option?”

ANS: Don’t know. Haven’t kept track of which companies have gotten on the MS bandwagon so far. But Sony hasn’t placed a limit on new entries, so those that haven’t still may do so.

“All of which I can do today with greater capacity using CF.”

ANS: What is the max capacity possible with CF or SM? Sony says 128MB later this year and a max of 1.3GB by 2002. How about CF and SM?

“Today, I take pictures on 64Mb Lexar CF chip, which also contains my PowerPoint presentation, some MP3s, etc. I can pop the CF chip into my laptop -- any laptop from any manufacturer with a PCMCIA slot -- edit my pictures, and play the MP3, and update the PowerPoint. I can then pop the chip into my PDA, listen to the MP3s, fiddle with the photos, and rehearse my PowerPoint pres. Finally I can throw the chip into a dedicated MP3 player. Seems to me that I already am doing today what your promising for Memory Stick. Until it becomes cheap as chewing gum, why would I switch. And of course, if people don't switch, it won't become as cheap as chewing gum. Sony has a long history (can anybody say "Betamax"?) of producing interesting technology that doesn't become the adopted standard

ANS: You’ve named several devices which use CF cards. With 40 mfrs already online, use of the MS potentially involves thousands of individual products. not half-a-dozen. Since MS has only been on the market a short time, it is rather specious to use the argument that CF is currently used in more devices. That’s like criticizing the first jet liners by saying that more airlines were using prop jobs.

As to BetaMax, Sony has produced a plethora of successful electronic devices, but whenever the name Sony comes up, the only product you ever hear mentioned by some sources is BetaMax. BetaMax was and still is superior to VHS. Sony should have licensed it the way they are licensing MS and it would have wiped VHS out in short order. BetaMax is still in production and is used by professional products almost exclusively—no VHS for the pros! Unfortunately, the millions of consumer VCR owners have had to do with a second-rate system.

”How many other camera manufacturers do you know with diskette drives in the cameras? How about a little less marketing hype and a little more objective reasoning?”

ANS: Do you consider the Mavicas a failure on Sony’s part? If so, I can guarantee you that every other digicam manufacture in the world wishes they could fail so brilliantly. As to other floppy users, read on.

It's nice to see someone other than Sony finally produce a digicam that can use conventional floppy diskettes. (Steve’s Digicams re Panasonic PV-SD4090 Superdisk digicam 16 Mar 00)

Canon Inc. said it would launch a newly developed video image storage device for still images taken by digital video camcorders. The newly developed floppy disc drive for storing still images from digital video camcorders can store images on popular 3.5-inch 2HD floppy disks and the images can be easily transferred to personal computers via a floppy disk drive.

Panasonic, Sony and Canon. Not too shabby a group when it comes to the manufacturer of electronic devices. Of course, Panasonic and Canon are Johnny-come-latelies as concerns floppies.

As to marketing hype, could you be more specific? Which of the advantages of MS that I previously listed were in error. What technical advantages does CF or SM have over MS? I don’t think we have any marketers here, just users.

Rodger

 

[misha]

“All of which I can do today with greater capacity using CF.”

ANS: What is the max capacity possible with CF or SM? Sony says 128MB
later this year and a max of 1.3GB by 2002. How about CF and SM?

The difference so far is that CF manufacturers don't "say", they just release increasingly larger cards. CF is now available in 320 MB (at least those I know, there may be larger cards already). The biggest cards are, of course, espensive, but the prices will come down. How can one confidently say that there WILL be a 1.3 gb Memory stick in 2000? A lot can happen between now and then - that's two years, ages in digital photography. Besides, the Microdrive is in CF(2) format, not Memory stick. You refer to the 40 manufacturers that have plans to use MS in their products - do you have any numbers for companies that have similar agreements regarding CF and SM cards? What's the basis of your claim that the MS has the best form factor? I can easily fit a few CF cards in my wallet - how much smaller do they need to be?

To sum up, I'm not saying that other cards are better that the Memory stick - I just don't see many clear advantages of the latter.

Misha

 

[Robert Maclellan]

Those large capacity cards are CF Type II and are unusable in CF Type I cameras.

The difference so far is that CF manufacturers don't "say", they just
release increasingly larger cards. CF is now available in 320 MB (at
least those I know, there may be larger cards already).

 

[misha]

Those large capacity cards are CF Type II and are unusable in CF Type I
cameras.

Probably the majority of new cameras have slots that accommodate both type I and type II; there are also plans for Microdrive-type devices for type I slots.

Misha

 

[Doug17370]

Man you sound like a proslytizing fool-

Your primary argument is null and void - do a websearch on warez and magicgate - people are already writing software tools that have rendered the magicgate "anti-piracy" scheme useless. There is not a company in the world that will ever create a consumer level copy protection scheme that won't be cracked virtually before it hits the market. The only truly "secure" distribution system is public-private key encryption - and there is no way any company is going to find it cost effective to produce individually encrypted products for each consumer.

So we are to assume that the memory stick is superior because a Sony rep
said so? People are taking distant promises for a fact, so one would
think that 1Gb sticks are already here - that remains to be seen, as well
as the capacities CF cards will reach by that time. As for the future
proliferation of MS in various devices, you fail to mention the fact that
CF and SM cards have long been used in MP3 players, PDA, printers, etc.

• at this point they are still much more common than MS equipment. (As

for the CF price I quoted ($131), it's the lowest at buy.com, but not on
the market - it is currently $118)

 

[Robert MacLellan]

So let me see if I have YOUR primary argument straight. Because criminals and thieves are working on methods of defeating the protection of an artist's legitimate work and stealing it, that will be the reason why the Memorystick won't be accepted.

So, according to your way of thinking, the music industry will turn to the memory format that makes no attempt whatsoever to protect their product because there are crackers out there trying to break it. Maybe they will decide to throw up their hands and let all of their music be freely pirated because they have made enough money already. Yeah...RIGHT!!

I think it isn't a good position to be on the side of the criminals! Is that what you are advocating? The right to pirate?

Your primary argument is null and void - do a websearch on warez and
magicgate - people are already writing software tools that have rendered
the magicgate "anti-piracy" scheme useless. There is not a company in
the world that will ever create a consumer level copy protection scheme
that won't be cracked virtually before it hits the market. The only
truly "secure" distribution system is public-private key encryption - and
there is no way any company is going to find it cost effective to produce
individually encrypted products for each consumer.

 

[John Burns]

Robert may have the reason wrong but the memory war is already over and Sony has won. The battles will go on for awhile but the outcome is clear. No Beta fiasco this time. Sony learned their lesson well and blindsided CF and SM and they will not be able to maintain market share. Already the memory stick has passed SM in capacity and will go past CF late this year. As already discussed earlier in this thread the price per MB is less then either one. Sony is adding companies at a rapid rate which will assure widespread use and availibility in a short time. I predict that the marketing of the memory stick will end up being used in buisness schools as a model of how to penetrate an established market.

John

Your primary argument is null and void - do a websearch on warez and
magicgate - people are already writing software tools that have rendered
the magicgate "anti-piracy" scheme useless. There is not a company in
the world that will ever create a consumer level copy protection scheme
that won't be cracked virtually before it hits the market. The only
truly "secure" distribution system is public-private key encryption - and
there is no way any company is going to find it cost effective to produce
individually encrypted products for each consumer.

So we are to assume that the memory stick is superior because a Sony rep
said so? People are taking distant promises for a fact, so one would
think that 1Gb sticks are already here - that remains to be seen, as well
as the capacities CF cards will reach by that time. As for the future
proliferation of MS in various devices, you fail to mention the fact that
CF and SM cards have long been used in MP3 players, PDA, printers, etc.

• at this point they are still much more common than MS equipment. (As

for the CF price I quoted ($131), it's the lowest at buy.com, but not on
the market - it is currently $118)

 

[mikec]

ANS: Approximately 40 different manufacturers of electronic devices have
already signed agreements with Sony for production of MS and use of MS in
their electronic products. I don’t believe any force was involved.
Perhaps they were just covering all bases, but if they decide that the MS
technology is better than CF or SM, CF and SM may someday be a footnote
in electronics history.

Yes, and if pigs had wings we'd have bacon in trees. Look I'm not disputing the elegance of MS architecture. But I think you are seriously misrepresenting the current state of the storage market. Both manufacturers and consumers have reasons to adopt technology which has nothing to do with its superiority (and yes, I agree with you that Betamax was a superior technology to VHS). For example, compatibility with existing technology investments is pretty high on most consumers lists. When I upgrade my camera, I'd like to take my storage with me.

“Secondly, the fact that something is possible and available,
doesn't make it inevitable or even likely. At last check, HP, IBM,
Compaq, Dell, made up the lions share of new system sales. Do any of
these desktop manufacturers have announced (or unannounced) plans to ship
Memory Stick enabled keyboards with their systems? Even as an
option?”

ANS: Don’t know. Haven’t kept track of which companies have
gotten on the MS bandwagon so far. But Sony hasn’t placed a limit
on new entries, so those that haven’t still may do so.

The difference here is that Memory Stick technology is not an industry-wide standard. It is a proprietary technology licensed by Sony to other manufacturers. And if you think that has no effect on product availability, think again. In the digicam space there are exactly 5 models of cameras which use Memory Stick; only two of them are shipping today. All 5 are manufactured by Sony. As of August 31, there were over 100 cameras models from over 30 different manufacturers using CF technology.

“All of which I can do today with greater capacity using CF.”

ANS: What is the max capacity possible with CF or SM? Sony says 128MB
later this year and a max of 1.3GB by 2002. How about CF and SM?

I can buy today a 192Mb CF ram card and a 340Mb CF microdrive. The largest MS device available today is 64Mb. CF Storage cards are designed around the same IDE/ATA command set used my hard disk drive manufacturers; The CF Spec 1.4 ( http://www.compactflash.org/cfspc1_4.pdf ) does not specify ANY upper limit on storage size. (To be fair however, I surmize the limit would be reached by exceeding the bit addressibility of the number of sectors per track -- a 32 bit value. Since the current sector size (b/s) in use is 512, this would mean a limit of 2.1 billion sectors times 512 bytes each -- roughly 1 terabyte -- unless, of course manufacturers increased the sector size.)

ANS: You’ve named several devices which use CF cards. With 40
mfrs already online, use of the MS potentially involves thousands of
individual products. not half-a-dozen. Since MS has only been on the
market a short time, it is rather specious to use the argument that CF is
currently used in more devices. That’s like criticizing the first
jet liners by saying that more airlines were using prop jobs.

Look, I mentioned half a dozen devices that I PERSONALLY OWN and use today. At the end of this message, I've included a partial list of the HUNDREDS of devices YOU CAN BUY AND USE TODAY using CF. Secondly, it is hardly appropriate to compare lets & prop planes in this context. Current memory capacities are 500% higher on CF (64 vs 340). Thirdly, if your basing the dominance of MS on 40 manufacturers, think again. Here's the list of 140 manufacturers supporting CF:

3COM
3S System Co.
Acecom Inc.
ActionTec Electronics, Inc.
Adaptec, Inc.
Adtron Corp.
A Force Group
ALLTOP Technology Co.
Alps
AMCO TEC Intn'l Inc.
AMP Inc.
Ando Electric Co., Ltd
Apacer Technology Inc.
Apricorn Inc.
Asahi Optical Co. (Pentax)
Askey Computer Corp.
Atmel Corp.
Billionton Systems
Buffer-Tek Corporation
Butterfly Group, Inc.
Capstone Technology
Carry Computer Engrg.
Casio Computer Co., Ltd.
Cellotape
Centennial Technologies
Centon Electronics
CIS Technology
COM One
Compaq Computer
CUE Corporation
Cute Technology
Cycolor
Dane-Elec
DataFab Systems Inc.
DDK Electronics, Inc.
Delkin Devices, Inc.
Digital Print Corp.
Eastman Kodak Co.
ETON Inc.
ETRI
FCI Electronics
FEIYA Technology Corp.
Foxconn
FUJIFILM Microdevices
FUJI Photo Film Co., Ltd.
Fujisoku Corp.
Fujitsu Computer Technology Ltd. Fujitsu Ltd.
Fujitsu Takamisawa America
Fujitsu Towa Electron, Ltd.
Green House Co., Ltd.
GoldenRAM
Hagiwara Sys-Com Co., Ltd.
Halo Data Devices, Inc.
Hirose Electric Inc.
Highlead Technology Inc.
Hitachi Maxell, Ltd.
Honda Tsushin Koyga
Hosiden
I/O Interconnect
I-O Data Device
Icon CMS
Intel Corporation
Iomega
ITT Cannon
JAE Elecronics
J.S.T. Manufacturing Co., Ltd.
Key Technology Corp.
Kingmax Technology Inc.
Kingston Technology Company
Konica
Kyocera Corp.
Kyocera Elco Corp.
Lexar Media, Inc.
Lexmark International, Inc.
M-Systems
MarQlin Corp.
Matsushita Battery Industrial
Matsushita Electronic Instruments
MCCI
MELCO Inc.
Memory Card Technology
Memory Corporation
Memtek Products Inc.
Micron Quantum Devices
Microsoft
Microtech International
Minolta Co., Ltd.
Mitsubishi Electric Corp.
Mitsubishi Plastics Inc.
Molex
National Semiconductor NEC
Nikon
Nokia
OKI Electric Industry Co.
Olympus
Option International
Palmax Technology Co., Ltd. (Matsushita)
Philips Electronics
Phoenix Technologies
Pixela Corporation
PNY Electronics
PointStar
Polaroid
Power Quotient International
Pretec
Princeton Technology
Proxima Corporation
RATOC Systems, Inc.
Ricoh
Ritek Corporation
Rohm Co., Ltd.
SANYO
SCM Microsystems
Sharp Corp.
Silicom Multimedia Systems
Silicon Storage Technology
Simple Technology
SMART Modular Technology
Southland Micro Systems
STMicroelectronics
TDK
Tec-Hill Company
TEKA Interconnection Systems
Testmetrix
Tokyo Electron Ltd.
Transcend Information, Inc.
TRG Products
TwinMOS Technologies, Inc.
UCONN Technology Inc.
Uniden
Unifosa Enterprise Co.
USA Speed Tech., Inc.
Victor Company of Japan
Viking Components Inc
VisionTek
Wichmann WorkX AG
Wintec Industries, Inc.
Xircom

ANS: Do you consider the Mavicas a failure on Sony’s part? If so,
I can guarantee you that every other digicam manufacture in the world
wishes they could fail so brilliantly. As to other floppy users, read on.

As a matter of fact I do think it's been a failure. Otherwise they wouldn't be inventing a new storage architecture.

It's nice to see someone other than Sony finally produce a digicam that
can use conventional floppy diskettes. (Steve’s Digicams re
Panasonic PV-SD4090 Superdisk digicam 16 Mar 00)

If Sony were committed to the smashing success of the Mavica floppy approach, why wouldn't they use SuperDisk? Perhaps because it's not a Sony technology?

As to marketing hype, could you be more specific? Which of the
advantages of MS that I previously listed were in error. What technical
advantages does CF or SM have over MS? I don’t think we have any
marketers here, just users.

Yes let me be specific:

1. Can you give me ANY aspect of Memory Stick technology available today that is superior to (or even equal to) available CF technology?

2. Can you name any manufacturer other than Sony that is putting memory stick in their PC's, Laptops, PDA's, etc.

3. If what we have here is "just users". then please stick to information that "users" can use. "Users" want information that is useful about making current and near term purchasing decisions. I don't think it is very helpful to cast aspersions on the market viability of CF just because Sony has announced "a plan". Your fanciful prediction of the demise of CF in the shadow of MS dominance is unsupported by ANY facts. If you have 'em, show 'em in the same detail you find below.

Mike

Here's the list of PDA's you can BUY TODAY using CF:

Amedia Pocket Pro 204
Amedia Pocket Pro 206
BCOM Handheld PC
Canon EX-100P
Casio Cassiopeia A-20
Casio Cassiopeia E-10 Palm PC
Casio Cassiopeia E-11 Palm PC
Casio Cassiopeia E-100 Palm sized
Casio Cassiopeia E-105 Palm sized
Casio Cassiopeia E-500
Casio Cassiopeia PA-2400
Compaq Aero 2100 Palm PC
Compaq Aero 8000
Ericsson MC12
Ericsson MC218
Everex Freestyle Associate
Everex Freestyle Manager
Everex Freestyle Executive
Fujitsu Intertop
Fujitsu TeamPad 7600
Hitachi HPW-200EC Hitachi HPW-20E8M
Hitachi HPW-600JC
Hitachi HPW-600JCM
HP 320LX
HP 360LX
HP 620LX
HP 660LX
HP Jornada 420 Palm PC
HP Jornada 820
HTC Kangaroo Palm PC
Husky Fex21
Husky FS/3
Husky MP2500
Intermec Norand 600 Series Palm Size
Keyence XL-200
LEO Freestyle
LG Phenom
LG Phenom Ultra
LG Pocket Phenom
LG Rx Phenom Express
LG Rx Phenom Ultra NEC MobilePro 700
NEC MobilePro 750C
NEC MobilePro 770
NEC MobilePro 800
NTT SpacePad
Palmax PD-300 Palm PC
Philips Nino 300
Philips Nino 301
Philips Nino 302
Psion Series 5
Psion Series 5mx
Samsung eGo-note
Samsung InfoGear Palm PC
Sharp MI-310 Pocket Zaurus
Sharp Moblon TriPad PV-6000
Telexon Rugged Wireless PTC-960M
TRGpro Handheld (Palm OS)
Trogon PalmPower! C-200
Uniden Unipro PC 100 Palm PC
Vadem Clio

Here's the list of Digicams YOU CAN BUY TODAY using CF:

Agfa ePhoto CL30
Canon PowerShot 350
Canon PowerShot A5
Canon PowerShot A5 Zoom
Canon PowerShot A50 Zoom
Canon PowerShot Pro70
Canon PowerShot S10
Casio QV-700
Casio QV-7000SX
Casio QV-2000UX
Casio QV-8000SX
Casio QV-5500SX
Epson Colorio CP-800
Epson CP-500
Epson PhotoPC 600
Epson PhotoPC 650
Epson PhotoPC 700
Epson PhotoPC 750Z
Epson PhotoPC 800
Epson PhotoPC 850Z
Goko MacromaX DMC-1
HP PhotoSmart C20
HP PhotoSmart C30
HP PhotoSmart C200
HP PhotoSmart C500
Jenoptik Jendigital JD850Z2
JVC GC-S1
Kodak DC25
Kodak DC120
Kodak DC200
Kodak DC200 Plus
Kodak DC210
Kodak DC210 Plus
Kodak DC215 Kodak DC240
Kodak DC220
Kodak DC260
Kodak DC265
Kodak DC280
Kodak DC290
Kodak Prizm XLX
Konica DG-1
Konica Q-Mini
Konica Q-M100
Konoca Q-M100V
Konica Q-M200
Kyocera DR-350
Kyocera Samurai 1300DG
Kyocera Samurai 2100DG
Matsushita LK-RQ2Z
Matsushita NV-DCF3
Matsushita NV-DCF50
Matsushita LK-RQ130Z
Microdia QuickShot
Minolta Dimage EX 1500
Minolta Dimage EX 3000
Mitsubishi DJ-1000
Mustek VDC-200
Mustek VDC-300
NEC Picona
Nikon CoolPix 600
Nikon CoolPix 700
Nikon CoolPix 900
Nikon CoolPix 910 Nikon CoolPix 950
Nikon D1
Panasonic CardShot
Panasonic CoolShot
Panasonic CoolShot II
Panasonic PV-DC10 (PalmCam)
Panasonic PV-DC1580 (PalmCam)
Panasonic PV-DC 2090
Panasonic PV-DC 2590
Polaroid PDC-3000
Polaroid PDC-700
Pretec DC-600
Pretec DC-800
PuLI DC-600
Ricoh RDC-100
Samsung Digimax 30
Samsung Digimax 150
Samsung Digimax 800K
Samsung SSC-410N
Sanyo DSC VPC-SX500EX
Sound Vision SVmini-209
Tekom Tekcam-200
UMAX DC-A1
UMAX MDX-8000
UMAX PhotoRun
Vivitar ViviCam 2700
Vivatar ViviCam 2750
Yashica KC-600
Yashica Samurai 1300DG

Here's the list of other devices YOU CAN BUY TODAY using CF:

3C Comm. Pay Phone System
Advantech PCM-5820 Embedded PC
Braemer Heart Monitor
Burdick Heart Monitor
Canon CD-200 Photo Printer
Canon CD-300 Photo Printer
Clarion Auto PC
Dictaphone Walkabout Tour
(Audio Recorder)
Epson SCE8700Cox/SH-Card PC
Granite Communications NOVIS
(Industrial HPC)
Hewlett-Packard P1000 Photo Printer
Hewlett-Packard P1100 Photo Printer
Iomega Flash Memory Reader
JVC Guideman Audio Player
Lanier Cquence Mobile Recorder
Lexmark Photo jetprinter 5770
Lucent EPAC Internet Player Matsushita Audio Recorder
Micro Industries Vehicle Computer
Motorola CompactPCI
(Industrial Computer)
Motorola PATX3000 Motherboard
Norris Audio Recorder
Orchid PC104
(Industrial Computer)
Orchard PC104
(Industrial Computer)
Panasonic Photo Printer
Photo-Request Set-top Box
RadiSys AutoPC
Samsung SAP-100 AutoPC
Sanyo DMA-100 Digital Album
Seiko Epson PM750C Photo Printer Spyrus Hydra Privacy Card
SurVivaLink Heart Defribrillator
Teac IR-300
Teknor CompactPCI
(Industrial Computer)
Teknor TEK-CPCI-1004
(Industrial Computer)
Thomson RCA Lyra MP3 Player
Trimble AgGPS 170 Field Computer
UHER DH10 Audio Recorder
UHER DH2000 Audio Recorder
VideoChip Wallet LCD Player
Vivatar VPP-150 Photo Printer
WinSystems PCM-CFlash
Ziatech CompactPCI Board

In addition nearly ALL Laptops can us CF cards via their Type II PCMCIA slots.

 

[mikec]

Those large capacity cards are CF Type II and are unusable in CF Type I
cameras.

Probably the majority of new cameras have slots that accommodate both
type I and type II; there are also plans for Microdrive-type devices for
type I slots.

Misha

In addition, CF1 Cameras won't accept Memory Sticks either -- not even the 1.3Gb ones