CD-R Warning, if ever one were needed.

In 1989 I had a job as computer operator at a Metlife office. We had a Honeywell-Bull mainframe in a computer room. For obvious reasons, there was redundant cooling built into the room. This consisted of 4 air conditioners mounted in the ceiling. If the house air went out, these units would continue to move heat from the room into the crawl space between the 6th and 7th floors.

For some reason, we began to have heat problems. So Honeywell came out and installed a stripchart temperature recorder. For some reason, the building also decided to turn off house air during the weekend. Finally, my manager decided not to have 24 hour operations. I happened to be the first person on duty at 6AM the next Monday. The thermostats were adjusted so that everything would be a nice temperature by 8AM. So the A/C was on already by 6AM but the building was not unexpectedly still a little warm.

I entered our hallway, and the temperature was warmer than the rest of the building. I walked down the hallway and unlocked the door to the computer room. Then I grabbed the door handle to open the door. It was so hot I had to let go.

Once I realized how hot it was, I managed to open the door somehow and propped it open. On the table was a fax with a dendrite pattern from static electric discharge that happened in the presence of the hot room. The overall color of the fax was greyish.

I walked over to the stripshart recorder. The scale went up to 120 degrees F. The pen had shot right past the top of the scale and was embedded in a crack in the housing. The distance from the crack to the 120 degree line was about the same as from the 100 degree line to the 120 degree line, so I'm sure the temperature was at least 140 degrees in the room.

Most of the disk drives on the mainframe had automatically powered themselves down for safety reasons because of the heat, but the mainframe itself was still pumping heat into the room.

All our daily backup tapes were in that room. All were ruined. Full weekly backup tapes were offsite, fortunately. The boot tape, which was in the lowest density format the tape drive could handle, fortunately, was still readable. So, after about a day of cooling, disk maintenance, etc., it was possible to boot the computer.

The point, though, is that the tapes were ruined by the heat. I suspect DVDs may not suffer the same problem at similar temperatures.
--
http://www.pbase.com/victorengel/



P.S. Why did the redundant A/Cs fail? Because they vented into the crawl space. WHen the house air was turned off, so were the crawl space fans. The ceiling mounted A/C units were still operating. However, a fire safety feature had them cutting off whenever the head pressure reached a certain threshold.
 
Kirbs, I think that Jay is right; it seems logical either to doubt
the ten year report or to doubt the article's or Gerecke's
assessment.
Hi George!

not disagreeing with you, really, because i'd rather have an opinion. Er, which is use the darn tape:) . . .

but i think and am pretty sure i was sitting on the fence about "Gerecke vs. Allcommers" [sic] .

Can you forgive me that one?

I mean, crappy article, but the idea was to flush out also some non-anecdotal evidence for optical working too.

Sad that we call it "news" but when i did copy, we joked "give it 5, and it hits "Science", 10 and we get NG paying attention"

Frank with you, i have no worthwhile data to share. But anyone?

Maybe it's still news because no-one grew past this?

best,
  • kirbs
 
It's information many have known for a long time. I've had burned
cds bite the dust after three years, the metal layer black in color
and the data inaccessible. If anything, there are companies who
offer archival CDs with a life of 75 years and up. I've seen some
as high as 300 years.
--
Nathan A. Luna

Freelance Photojournalist for the Visalia Times-Delta and Tulare
Advance Register. Photographer, LunaImages Photography. Currently
attending the College of the Sequoias, a junior college in Visalia,
CA. Learning, day by day. Equipment in Profile.

LunaImages Photography
http://luna.smugmug.com
 
DVD error correction is far more reliable than CD error correction. Actually, if memory serves correctly, it's about twice as reliable. CDs use Cross-interleaved Reed-Solomon code and DVDs use a more advanced form called Reed-Solomon Product Code. Several improvements and random differences, but rooted in the same algorithms.

That said, I used to run analysis on discs all day long at a place I worked. CDs were more likely to pass. Not because of the error correction, but because of other factors. CDs are easier for places to make decently, random brands of CDs are still reliable. The burners have been getting made for a lot longer and have been refined more. It's really heavily three things. The burner it was made from, the disc quality itself, and the drive it is being read from. All of those make a big difference. You should know that errors don't physically exist in most cases, they are a byproduct of the drive trying to read the disc. It's like reading handwriting, you have to have someone write it well on clean paper and be able to have someone else read it. If another person can't read your handwriting, same thing as when a drive can't read a disc. Generates errors. Put it back into the drive that burned it and it will read it better. In general when dealing with DVDs, read from a Pioneer drive. They are way more reliable at retrieving information, drives like Plextor will constantly give errors and deem discs unreadable. That same disc in a Pioneer will read just fine.

Not wanting to go on for too long here, but just to keep it simple, get a good drive to burn it out of, get good media. CDs and DVDs are reliable, CDs I trust more than DVDs though. Also take for granted that a burner that is 6 to 12 months old, depending on use, may work just fine and seem great and produce readable results, but it's really not burning a good disc and will be more likely to fail in the near future.

Discs can scratch. Foil can deteriorate. Magnetic media (all kinds including hard drives and tape) can have the magnetism die down/spread/number of other things. Tape formats I would rate as one of the least preffered ways of backing up data for long term. CDs are actually a better option in a way because you can easily burn new ones as time goes on. Constant backup is a better option that a back once and assume it will last forever. I have CDs from 8 years ago that were completely mistreated. Tossed, scratched, beaten, heated, sunlight...pretty much everything you could do to them without chewing on it. Guess what? They still work. Then again, I've seen CDs become unreadable in a week. Poor quality media and equipment has always been the reason, and not to start a war here but guess how high a percentage of the time Apple was attached to those failed discs. Answer is most of the time. Learn to upgrade your parts people, just because it still works doesn't mean it's not broken.

--
-Jan
 
Hi,

This software you are mentioning, the LG stuff, is it freely available or does it come bundled with LG DVD burners?

Regards,
Tomaz
Have you any reference
Not really, I probably read this in the German c't magazine and it
was only a short note about how IBM "considers the likely lifespan
of magnetic tapes no more than 5 years" or something along those
lines.
I think the IBM'er is pointing to poor quality dye
substrates.
Yes, my first CDs cost between 10 and 15 DM per piece which was
around $7-$10 at that time.

About the quality control, you have to do it yourself as a user of
optical media. I do spot checks of the media I buy with my LG
DVD-drive & KProbe, a 'leaked' LG engineering tool for Windows that
can display all those values like BLER, PI sum of 8, PO etc.
That will protect against the most frequent reason for data losses
with nowaday's media: a disc that was bad from the start. The only
CD-Rs I have lost data with were really cheap ones that went from
bad to unreadable in a couple of months. The check could be
repeated in certain intervals to be sure.
Note that I have yet to lose data with even the cheapest 'fake'
(wrong manufacturer ID) 1x DVD media burnt at 2x (firmware patch).
 
I mean, crappy article, but the idea was to flush out also some
non-anecdotal evidence for optical working too.
I think you did well bringing the article to our attention. It is interesting, but it is also logical that most people will disagree with the life expectancies given.
regards,
George
 
are proclaiming HD is the really safe data storage medium, what are
you doing to insure your data's safety in case of a natural
disaster. If your home or office burns to the ground, how are you
accommodating off site storage of redundant copies of your data?
When the next hurricane come ashore what will you do?
Are you are positing that tapes don't need to be taken off site because they are impervious to all disasters.

If not, then what does using HDs as a storage medium have to do with off site? I don't think there is any reasons that HDs can't be taken off site. HDs are much more attractive in an off site situation (bearing in mind that this is not a business forum), because HDs can be read in with most any random computer.

As opposed to some esoteric tape system. Do you really think that Joe photographer's cousin will have an enterprise level tape drive connected to thier computer? Just in case their cousin the photographer has some glitch with his computer?

HDs are the best media we have. For the photographers that frequent these forums. The cost per gig is low. The cost for gig for gold archive level CDR blanks is high. The cost of hardware to connect a HD to most any computer is low. They require no additional software to read. They are reasonably rugged when powered off. Unlike optical media, HDs have a reasonable rate of data recovery. Data recovery companies can do nothing once the dye layer of optical media has flaked off. They most likely can recover data from a failed HD.

I used to use tapes to backup up my computer back in the days when HDs were in the 1-8 gig range. I had a lot more tape failures, with multiple tape systems, than I have ever had from HDs. My happiest day was when the cost of HDs dropped such that they became attractive as backup media. Yea!

Yes, the situation for large scale enterprise IT departments is different, but this forum isn't about large scale enterprise IT.

Wayne Larmon
 
"Almost a quarter of respondents – 23 percent – concede that they do not archive data. Respondents agreed, says BridgeHead, that the hypothetical task of retrieving a vital file lost three months ago would be a hit-or-miss affair."

http://theinquirer.net/?article=28937

Great, extrapolated, that's an awful lot of companies in statutory breach of criminal (albeit not severe) provisions of UK Companies Act . . .
 
are proclaiming HD is the really safe data storage medium, what are
you doing to insure your data's safety in case of a natural
disaster. If your home or office burns to the ground, how are you
accommodating off site storage of redundant copies of your data?
When the next hurricane come ashore what will you do?
Are you are positing that tapes don't need to be taken off site
because they are impervious to all disasters.
I don't believe I mentioned anything at all about tape being impervious to disasters or that they would not need to be taken off-site. Don't try to put words in my mouth.
If not, then what does using HDs as a storage medium have to do
with off site? I don't think there is any reasons that HDs can't
be taken off site. HDs are much more attractive in an off site
situation (bearing in mind that this is not a business forum),
because HDs can be read in with most any random computer.
HD's can be taken off site and in fact we have done that with some projects. We found that taking HD's off site nightly shortened their life considerably. HD's just don't handle the travel well. Accidents happen. They are more prone to static, and also the jostling they took was harmful to their reliability. They proved they were not trustworthy in our project. While they were part of a multiple copy backup system we never lost data but we were left with a single source of data at times.
As opposed to some esoteric tape system. Do you really think that
Joe photographer's cousin will have an enterprise level tape drive
connected to thier computer? Just in case their cousin the
photographer has some glitch with his computer?
HUH? The reason for offsite storage of the data was no so that Joe's cousin could read the data. It would be for safe storage and recall if needed. I am not suggesting tape is the best solution for anyone. I personally don't particularly care for tape. I have seen too many bad tapes and defective tape devices to feel comfortable with that as a sole backup.
HDs are the best media we have. For the photographers that
frequent these forums. The cost per gig is low. The cost for gig
for gold archive level CDR blanks is high. The cost of hardware
to connect a HD to most any computer is low. They require no
additional software to read. They are reasonably rugged when
powered off. Unlike optical media, HDs have a reasonable rate of
data recovery. Data recovery companies can do nothing once the
dye layer of optical media has flaked off. They most likely can
recover data from a failed HD.

I used to use tapes to backup up my computer back in the days when
HDs were in the 1-8 gig range. I had a lot more tape failures,
with multiple tape systems, than I have ever had from HDs. My
happiest day was when the cost of HDs dropped such that they became
attractive as backup media. Yea!

Yes, the situation for large scale enterprise IT departments is
different, but this forum isn't about large scale enterprise IT.

Wayne Larmon
You somehow interpreted my prior post as being in support of a tape system. I have not posted anything of the sort.

The principals of a back-up strategy are basically the same for individuals as they are for an enterprise.

You need multiple copies[ b] of your data saved regularly[ b] and stored in multiple locations[ b].

HD's, while fast, large and much less expensive these days do not lend themselves easily to storage in multiple locations. HD's also do not handle transit as well as tape or optical media. I can drop a CD into a mailer and have a high likelihood that even using the USPS the product will arrive in good shape. Try that with a HD.

A good backup system can use multiple media, tape, HD or optical, or any combination.

My previous post was meant to point out that if you value your data and can't replace it you might wish to take into consideration local and regional disasters. If you value your photos and want them to survive a hurricane, or other major disaster, you need to store them outside of your region. How many in NOLA lost all their irreplaceable photos? I'd suggest almost every one. If I lived there I may have lost almost everything but I would not have lost my data. Whether a business or a personal library, I have my data stored in multiple regions. It's very easy to burn archival quality CD's or DVD's and to mail them to a friend or relative in another state for safe storage.

My only point here is use what you like, use it often and use it wisely.
--

Jim
 
The reliability of CD-Rs can be debated. I my business we have about 10,000 over 5 years old and the failure rate is one or two a year. On the other hand our old tape systems (Exabyte) had tapes and drives fail all the time. (The drives: one operational, one in for repair, and one in the mail was the constant state of affairs.

But your comment about managing data is just plain wrong. How could anyone say that managing serial media is easier then random access? It rediculous in the extreme.

Lastly DVD-Rs and CD-Rs can be varified after they are written. When we had tape archives we didn't varify the tapes because on every read you scrap of some oxide coating. Varification can cause tape data drop outs. So you need to varify after the varification......on and on and on.

We maintain the CD/DVD-Rs in a well protected location with good climate control and no sun light. We don't allow our scientists to handle them but make them their own copy to work with. With normal care optical media can last a long time. For small business and amature photogs a long time is probably a few decades. Optical is also very easy to duplicate, compared to the rewinding and tape damage associated with tape to tape backups (minutes vs hours per media.) Lastly tapes actually lose data just sitting there. The magnetic fields in vacume cleaners and even the Earth's magnetic field changes during solar storms tend to erase data.

Ken Eis
 
This discussion has focused on salvaging data over a period of a few years.

But what about the longer term: say 75 to 100 years. This is not only important for historical organizations but for individuals like you and me who would like their grandchildren or great grandchildren to be able to look at the photo records we have of our families and activities.

In the past we had photo albums where we could visit 100 year-old prints and find them still in reasonable shape. But today we print few of our images and those that we do print are often done in inkjet media whose longevity is unknown. When you go to an online printer, do you ask about longevity?

Back to the original thread: in a time frame of 75 years, which of these backup strategies is going to be useful? Will the ATA disk in your vault still play on your grandchildren's SRTDC computer? Not a typo - in 75 years Windows and MacOS will be names nobody even remembers. What will replace them? Will they recognize a FAT file system? Will your CD-R be readable by a machine 75 yrs from now? And the DAT tape? Will there be drivers for this quaint technology? How many of your computers have a slot for 3.5 in diskettes? You remember diskettes...

This is not a polemic for any one of the above technologies. I think all of them are going to be unsupported 75 years in the future. Then what happens to our photo archives? [I don't have the answer.]

Maybe on the personal level the only answer is to make silver halide prints of the precious photos and store them carefully.

pegasus
 
Are you are positing that tapes don't need to be taken off site
because they are impervious to all disasters.
I don't believe I mentioned anything at all about tape being
impervious to disasters or that they would not need to be taken
off-site. Don't try to put words in my mouth.
I was responding to you saying
Re: Those of you who...
are proclaiming HD is the really safe data storage medium, what are
you doing to insure your data's safety in case of a natural
disaster.
which sounds like condemning HDs as a backup media. You started this thread saying
I've commented before, seemingly hundreds of times, about the
insanity of photogs who'll think nothing of spending thousands on a
new lens, in a fit of lust, but who rely on cheap optical media in
preference to mag. tape. I currently get 500GB compressed on a
single tape - and it beats the heck out of burning DVDs.
If you are discounting HDs and optical media, but speak favorably of tape, then why is it unreasonable to interpret your words as reccomending tape?

Wayne Larmon
 
Here's a thread to an interesting NIST report on this subject. I believe someone said they had not seen results of any scientific study regarding CD or DVD longevity.

http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/gipwog/StabilityStudy.pdf

This NIST report seems to contain some good news along with similar concerns to the news article that started this discussion.

As to adhering to a archival process where you periodically check and refresh your backups, remember that this refresh maintenance will take progressively longer as we collect more data. Someone clever is going to come up with an automated way to do this. Wish it were me.

--
Stuart
 
That Epson is right. Prints from my R1800 are put away in archival photo albums as well. I printed about 500 of my pics from last year and stored them that way.

I can't see just leaving them on the hard drive.

:-)

Darrin
 
but of limited utility....

You can look at the tests for CD-R media and make an educated guess that the S4 sample that fared so well in their tests was a MAM-A from Matsui (the media that I have been using), but ...

when it comes to DVD-R it is still a bucket of worms. Even though one of their samples (D2) does much better than the others they tested, they refuse (for understandable reasons) to identify the manufacturer, so none of us can go out and buy those DVD-R disks.
 
I've commented before, seemingly hundreds of times, about the
insanity of photogs who'll think nothing of spending thousands on a
new lens, in a fit of lust, but who rely on cheap optical media in
preference to mag. tape. I currently get 500GB compressed on a
single tape - and it beats the heck out of burning DVDs.
If you are discounting HDs and optical media, but speak favorably
of tape, then why is it unreasonable to interpret your words as
reccomending tape?

Wayne Larmon
I don't know who should be attributed for that quote but it sure was not me. I did not post that comment.
--
Jim
 
that's not easily replaceable.

Heck, I've found that even a fingerprint smudge can mess up readability, and a CD can get scratched easily, too.

Perhaps a bit flipped here and there is not going to impact most things. But, I'd rather have more reliable media for images and other data.

I trust hard disk drives only for my backups (and I only trust them so far). LOL

--
JimC
------
http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield
 
i've had too many jazz and zip disks go dead on me as opposed to CDs. i'll stick with optical media for now.

besides, in case of a nuclear blast, you magnetic guys are screwed! :)
 
For around $15 I can buy an IDE/USB2.0 cable and AC to DC
powersupply to connect a hard drive to my pc for backing up.
I'm doing exactly that, and keep the drives in a firesafe safe.

Works super! Can really recommend it. (Btw, everyone ought to have a safe at home. It's good for important papers and other stuff too.)

Backing up to some backup-service over the internet could be an option, if you have the technical possibility (i.e. true broadband) and find someone you trust who offers the service at a reasonable price.

So far, I'm really happy with the offline drive solution.

Ciao

Thomas
 

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