Can our photos help terrorists?

[MThread]

When I was doing my compulsory service in the local defence forces, they said we could take pictures of most of the things, as long as they didn't show any particular "details" (for example, taking pictures inside of a tank where all the hi-tech stuff was [not that we had daily access to them anyway].) But general profile shots of the equipment/hardware/whatnot were most of the time OK.

So, by using that guideline to an advantage - if your pictures don't show anything special (security camera locations, holes in the fence or any other similar details) I don't think you should worry too much. After all, like people have said, anybody can get a general shot of the building(s).

 

[Craig Gillette]

Can our photos help terrorists? Yes, they could. Are they likely to? Who knows. Most likely not but the answer is not, no they can't be used. You'll note that very few people would assert that terrorists won't or can't use photographs, only that they'll get and use existing pictures, maps, or use a different kind of camera or cell phone or sketch pad or they'll skulk about and won't be seen, etc., etc. But to completely discount the value of pictures, maps, sketches, diagrams or the like would really fly in the face of historical experience. Spies have tried to get visual intelligence on targets forever and this intelligence has been used to attack "enemies" forever. So people generating this kind of intelligence are naturally the subject of some interest to the folks who are supposed to provide protection or security.

The value of current intelligence including photographs depends a lot on what you want to do, how close you need to get and how precise you need to be with what you are planning to do.

That's completely separate from whether you agree with or disagree with the politics, motives of any of the current good or bad actors on the world scene. If you let emotion or politics cloud the assessments, bad things can happen.

 

[WBirch]

...has become a serious problem for those that just want to
take pictures, Daniella. These post 9/11 days have made it very
difficult to just have fun with a camera and lens. Sad that paranoia
is taking over and it's simply impossible to point your camera where-ever
you want to anymore. :-(

WayneB.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wbirch/
=================================

We had a strange adventure recently. We were heading for the beach
to photograph the sunset but we did not make it on time. On the way
we passed a nice industrial plant that looked a bit like from a
Star War movie with the warm sunset light and the moon beside it.

Innocently we stopped to take a few pics. It did not took long let
me tell you that much. less then 5 minutes and there was 2 police
cars with 4 police officers surrounding us in no time.

They asked for our ID and took us apart to question us just to see
if our stories would match. I felt like a criminal or something!

Finaly I managed to get an answer to my question "is it illegal to
take photos of that plant?" "NO, it is not illegal but we want to
know who is taking photo and why" that was the reply. They
questioned us for a good half hour, asking all sort of questions
about our personal life.

he told me that this specific plant was on the 7 top terrorist target.

But now I have another worry, is it a real danger that someone
with bad intentions would use our photos to help in terrorist
attacks or sabotage? I have not posted the photos and I am afraid
to do so. what are the risks? is it a real risk?

what can they do with web size photos? Should we worry that our
photos can serve such purpose?

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send
them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[tony brown]

We had a strange adventure recently. They> questioned us for a good half hour, asking all sort of questions> about our personal life.> > he told me that this specific plant was on the 7 top terrorist target.>

That seems to be the security risk. Police who go about informing people of the contents of that list!

Perhaps they could publish them on the back page of the New Musical Express every week. The named installations might display (proudly), "We are number 5 on the hit-list this week. No photographs please!"

So then the innocent photographer could politely avoid taking pictures and the strange men in trench coats and trilbies could make dummy phone calls, using their 7 Mpixel Samsung phones and transmitting their pictures away before anyone gets to them.

Unfortunately terrorism has more effect on a population by making their own citizens the butt of every suspicion until they can prove otherwise.

Cheers, Tony.

 

[KEITH-C]

Daniella you have obviously discovered an good way of attracting Police attention ! Here in the UK if you report a burglary in process you will be lucky to get a Police response in less than an hour.

This reminds me of a story about someone who could not get a Police response to such a call so they phone them back again after some wait & told them not to bother saying that they had just shot the burglar - the Police came in less than 4 minutes !!

Keith-C

 

[zigg]

I know this isn't the right forum or website for this discussion but I was just trying to draw attention to an interesting insight courtesy of the bbc. And I dig those google maps!

Not a lot of people know that, but apparently Leo Strauss was the original mastermind behind your "current lot" and - according to Wikipedia - this is what he taught:

"[politicians] need to propagate myths necessary to give ordinary people meaning and purpose as to ensure a stable society. Modern liberalism had stressed the pursuit of individual liberty as its highest goal, and Strauss wanted government to take a more active role in promoting morality. Perpetual deception of the citizens by those in power is critical in Strauss's view because the populace needs to be led; they need strong rulers to tell them what is good for them."

Well, you know, I grew up in the USSR and they were feeding us just as sinister an image of the USA - always news of american atrocities etc. I'm finding it interesting to see how fear is promoted nowadays and how the international balance of power has shifted.

cheers

z

I think the names you're looking for (among others) are rumsfeld
wolfowitz cheney.

"The Soviet Union has been busy," Defense Secretary Rumsfeld
explained to America in 1976. "They've been busy in terms of their
level of effort; they've been busy in terms of the actual weapons
they 've been producing; they've been busy in terms of expanding
production rates; they've been busy in terms of expanding their
institutional capability to produce additional weapons at
additional rates; they've been busy in terms of expanding their
capability to increasingly improve the sophistication of those
weapons. Year after year after year, they've been demonstrating
that they have steadiness of purpose. They're purposeful about what
they're doing."

How history repeats itself!

I know this is meant to be a photography forum but when you're out
innocently taking photos and you get harrassed by the police it has
the affect of dragging you into a political debate.

Anyway, you'd probably use a hidden camera - like hidden in a bag
with a hole for the lens, or perhaps a large telephoto lens from a
distance, if you were really being dodgy.
--
eat a beaver, save a tree.

--

 

[DocDAT]

Daniella you have obviously discovered an good way of attracting
Police attention ! Here in the UK if you report a burglary in
process you will be lucky to get a Police response in less than an
hour.

This reminds me of a story about someone who could not get a Police
response to such a call so they phone them back again after some
wait & told them not to bother saying that they had just shot the
burglar - the Police came in less than 4 minutes !!

Keith-C

Last Christmas, I filmed a burglary in progress (in a shop under my parents appartment) with a Powershot S1 IS. I shouted "Smile you're on camera" to the guy to get him to turn around and show his face. It worked. I then burned a CD-R with the movie and gave it to the police when they came to investigate the next day. They recognised him, got him in for questioning, showed him the movie, he broke down and confessed to about 50 counts of burglary and even some petty larceny.

 

[MilesW]

I doubt that pictures you take would provide help to any terrorist. If the target is valuable it has already been photgraphed and documented many times over. I think what occured is just an example of ineffective actions to combat terrorist. it is also a perfect example of the successful results of terrorist groups. The purpose is to create havoc and unrest to the local populace.
--
MilesW

 

[Patrol]

As with most things security related, it comes down to perceived levels of security.

There are no cost-effective systems in existence that can be sure to keep every criminal out, not one; however the mere presence of "perceived security" will reduce the chances of that particular location becoming a target.

As an example, a crook will likely pass by a house with an advertised security system in favour of a house with no "apparent" security. The fact that the security system is fallible is of no consequence, and the seasoned crook will easily get inside, but for the easy target next door.

People feel more comfortable knowing that their house is less likely to be a target than the next guy's house.

Terrorists would prefer not to have their ID's checked out for taking pictures, so by knowing that they will get checked, they'd rather not take pictures. The truth is that the real pro-terrorist can do a drive-by shoot (camera) as easily as they can learn to fly.

Non-photographer residents probably "feel" more comfortable seeing the police question photographers and go home feeling "secure".

It sucks, it really does, but it goes about perceptions and those aren’t going to change soon.

The new challenge will be getting the pictures of the “protected areas” and having bragging rights for the level of success.

--
--------
Patrol

 

[Eduardo del Solar]

Finaly I managed to get an answer to my question "is it illegal to
take photos of that plant?" "NO, it is not illegal but we want to
know who is taking photo and why" that was the reply. They
questioned us for a good half hour, asking all sort of questions
about our personal life.

How close were you to the plant? I ask this because I had a recent incident here in Boston while taking pictures of the PO office. The officer and the other cops that arrived 4 minutes later were quite civil about his matter. They told me I could not point my camera to the PO but they did not care that if I took pictures of the harbor while at the parking of the PO building. (Boston Harbor faces the opposite side of the PO).

The question or answer I got, this was in another post regarding security, is that it is legal to take such pictures if you are outside the premises. However in your case it looks like these officers felt entitled to ask you personal questions even though you were outside the premises.

Hmm! Sounds to me that the way the laws are carried out vary by state, building or the personality of the officers perhaps? I should add that this was a beautifull New England evening...
.

But now I have another worry, is it a real danger that someone
with bad intentions would use our photos to help in terrorist
attacks or sabotage? I have not posted the photos and I am afraid
to do so. what are the risks? is it a real risk?

Terrorism for me is 90 % psychological warfare with the main actors being a government and it opposition (at times referred as terrorists). I interpret the act of the cops stopping you as nothing but a government and its politicians making a formal or visible response to the population at large that they are ready to respond to terrorism. Terrorists groups, local or imports, will play the same cat and mouse games by making multiple threats to divert and keep government forces busy. I therefore assume that terrorists, in answer to the question regarding you photos, have already sent hundreds of pictures (both vector and bitmaps) and a time agenda of the many sites they want government forces to believe are next in line to be blown apart. I do not think that additional pictures on the web, yours or others, will have any practical impact on this psychological warfare.

I recall back in the early 80s when my home country (Lima, Peru) had the highest level of people in the world that disappeared as a result of terrorist acts perpetrated by government and citizen forces (Shining Path being one of these elements). Psychological warfare and the cat and mouse games play by these forces was almost as real as the actual terrorist attacks. Here in this country we have Waco, the Oklahoma City bombings and 9/11. From my perspective I think of these events as the gradual Latin Americanization of the US in a smaller scale. I have no idea if the actual attacks will increase or be contained.

Psychological warfare, however, is part of our national fabric. It is just who we are now.

Saludos!

Eduardo

 

[Roger Krueger]

Remember, Hitler was just an ordinary elected jerk before the Reichstag fire.

 

[Eduardo del Solar]

"[politicians] need to propagate myths necessary to give ordinary
people meaning and purpose as to ensure a stable society. Modern
liberalism had stressed the pursuit of individual liberty as its
highest goal, and Strauss wanted government to take a more active
role in promoting morality. Perpetual deception of the citizens by
those in power is critical in Strauss's view because the populace
needs to be led; they need strong rulers to tell them what is good
for them."

Please do not discriminate... you assumption that only US and USSR feed that propaganda to their citizens violates the rights of politicians in other countries. Stop it please or I will report you to the proper authorities!

Well, you know, I grew up in the USSR and they were feeding us just
as sinister an image of the USA - always news of american
atrocities etc. I'm finding it interesting to see how fear is
promoted nowadays and how the international balance of power has
shifted.

I grew in Latin America and I would have to say that propaganda seems to be a function of all goverments! If you ask many Latin Americans of the two oldest professions, prostitution or politicians, which is the most venerable you could get a nice debate going on.

Some Peruvians, would argue that prostitution is a healthier or more venerable profession since prostitutes are required by law to pass regular medical tests to prevent infections to the citizenry. Such laws, unfortunately, do not extend to the Rumfelds or Fujimoris of this world probably because they do not belong to the oldest profession.

Please keep posting!

Eduardo

cheers

z

I think the names you're looking for (among others) are rumsfeld
wolfowitz cheney.

"The Soviet Union has been busy," Defense Secretary Rumsfeld
explained to America in 1976. "They've been busy in terms of their
level of effort; they've been busy in terms of the actual weapons
they 've been producing; they've been busy in terms of expanding
production rates; they've been busy in terms of expanding their
institutional capability to produce additional weapons at
additional rates; they've been busy in terms of expanding their
capability to increasingly improve the sophistication of those
weapons. Year after year after year, they've been demonstrating
that they have steadiness of purpose. They're purposeful about what
they're doing."

How history repeats itself!

I know this is meant to be a photography forum but when you're out
innocently taking photos and you get harrassed by the police it has
the affect of dragging you into a political debate.

Anyway, you'd probably use a hidden camera - like hidden in a bag
with a hole for the lens, or perhaps a large telephoto lens from a
distance, if you were really being dodgy.
--
eat a beaver, save a tree.

--

 

[Serge88]

"In the past our politicians offered us dreams of a better world. Now they promise to protect us from nightmares."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/3755686.stm
(link provided by zigg)
--
Serge
http://www.pbase.com/RebelXT/

 

[Tony SD]

And welcome back Daniella!

This forum isn't quite the same without you...
--
TonySD

 

[GovtLawyer]

They asked for our ID and took us apart to question us just to see
if our stories would match. I felt like a criminal or something!

You should have shown your ID's and told them you were not willing to be separated or questioned; that you were United States citizens enjoying the freedoms the United States Constitution gives you.

Finaly I managed to get an answer to my question "is it illegal to
take photos of that plant?" "NO, it is not illegal but we want to
know who is taking photo and why" that was the reply. They
questioned us for a good half hour, asking all sort of questions
about our personal life.

After around 5 minutes you should have told them to either arrest you or release you.

he told me that this specific plant was on the 7 top terrorist target.

You should have told him that he was a certified moron for giving you such classified information; asked him for his name and badge number, and told him that if he didn't release you that very moment you would see to it that everyone in America knew what a dimwit he was.

But now I have another worry, is it a real danger that someone
with bad intentions would use our photos to help in terrorist
attacks or sabotage? I have not posted the photos and I am afraid
to do so. what are the risks? is it a real risk?

GET REAL!

what can they do with web size photos? Should we worry that our
photos can serve such purpose?

Why are you asking other people if you should worry, as it seems you already are. You should be worrying more about the erosions of freedom and the attack upon your personal liberty than the possibility that someone 5000 miles away might use your photo for an attack.

 

[borderrose]

I don't know if the posting these kinds of photos would hurt anyone, but it is really nice to see you back on the forum.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Daniella68313]

It's just like the USSR in the old days where police and kgb would
harass you (actually, me under the pretext of national security
and taking a photograph in the wrong place would be a very
commonplace reason for arrest. I'm sure it's the same in many if
not most countries - and sounds like the USA has joined them.

This subject has been discussed before but I saw a series of
programs on the English BBC about the "neocons". Cannot remember
the names - but a certain academic set up a very influential group
of advisers in the 70's in Washington, basically saying - all these
hippies and liberals - they don't pay taxes, they only care about
drugs and orgies - individualism and pursuit of pleasure will lead
this country to ruin. So the answer, he said, is to actively
exaggerate any foreign threat - basically, if an army of subhuman
monsters is about to invade and tear your nearest and dearest limb
from limb - then you'll be too busy sealing windows with duct tape
to worry about any "necessary sacrifices" in the name of security.

Anyway, if photos of important facilities were so helpful to
terrosrists, then why isn't anybody getting onto google for
displaying important places like -

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.942261,-118.403318&spn=0.009667,0.013669&t=k&hl=en ?

Don't read if this bores or bothers you - but the BBC series I saw

• well, in the 80's this think-tank managed to "twist the ear" of

US president "Ray-Gun" - kept telling him how the Russians were
about to start "the Big One". So he ordered a commission to look
into this "threat" and they came back saying - "We found no proof
of any aggressive Russian intentions." His "team of advisors"
responded - "Well, that shows us how carefully these devious
Russians must have hidden their true plans - we must prepare for
the worst without delay!" And they started spending even more money
on building stuff like this:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=32.150899,-110.834026&spn=0.009034,0.015192&t=k&hl=en

now that is a worrying sight, don't you think?

dunno. it's an airport? suffice to say, they did not need many photos to crash in new york with airplanes, they had more sofisticated tools I guess, like the airplane radars etc. Their target can be unpredictable as we saw and what people expect to be their target is not always the right thing.

nobody could have anticipated what happened, that's what makes it scary.

so in that lines of thoughts, yes it is scary to see an airport from such easily accessed satellite map. but I don't know if this could help anyone destroy that airport and how?

--

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[Daniella68313]

Well, you know, I grew up in the USSR and they were feeding us just
as sinister an image of the USA - always news of american
atrocities etc. I'm finding it interesting to see how fear is
promoted nowadays and how the international balance of power has
shifted.

my boyfriend is Russian too. The police said when they were questioning us after a while, "your canadian and he's russian, so we are more concerned"

bad thing..we are not terrorist just photographers. And russians are no terrorists either.

But my question is still not answered. Is it a real threat if we put our photos online? can anyone use those to help their evil plans?

I wonder if this ever hapened and why the authorities are so afraid of poople taking photos.

BTW, is it as bad in russia now about taking photos of plant or other private buildings, not even military? some people mentioned the subway, other mentioned bridges. There are tons of the Golden Gate photos on the internet, from every possible angles but how is that going to help...if they want to do something bad they cannot just look at the photos and witht the power of their thoughts bring it down. they might be able to spot a specific spot to put a bomb or something but they would be able to do that on the place just as well I would imagine.

cheers

z

I think the names you're looking for (among others) are rumsfeld
wolfowitz cheney.

"The Soviet Union has been busy," Defense Secretary Rumsfeld
explained to America in 1976. "They've been busy in terms of their
level of effort; they've been busy in terms of the actual weapons
they 've been producing; they've been busy in terms of expanding
production rates; they've been busy in terms of expanding their
institutional capability to produce additional weapons at
additional rates; they've been busy in terms of expanding their
capability to increasingly improve the sophistication of those
weapons. Year after year after year, they've been demonstrating
that they have steadiness of purpose. They're purposeful about what
they're doing."

How history repeats itself!

I know this is meant to be a photography forum but when you're out
innocently taking photos and you get harrassed by the police it has
the affect of dragging you into a political debate.

Anyway, you'd probably use a hidden camera - like hidden in a bag
with a hole for the lens, or perhaps a large telephoto lens from a
distance, if you were really being dodgy.
--
eat a beaver, save a tree.

--

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.

 

[Olga Johnson]

...they don't need your shots. They get their own. They would probably get video and a lot more details than you could ever think of.

I agree with the poster who said that it was a worse breach of security telling you (someone they considered a "suspect") that the structure is on some type of security list.

They have a distorted sense of security, IMHO. Don't let them put you in a paranoid state.

Olga

 

[Daniella68313]

Daniella you have obviously discovered an good way of attracting
Police attention ! Here in the UK if you report a burglary in
process you will be lucky to get a Police response in less than an
hour.

well that'S no joke...my boyfriend did not even had the time to join me with his tripod that the police were there. just the time it took for him to get his tripod from the car and walk a 100 feet or so and bingo.

I had the time to take about 20 or so pics.

This reminds me of a story about someone who could not get a Police
response to such a call so they phone them back again after some
wait & told them not to bother saying that they had just shot the
burglar - the Police came in less than 4 minutes !!

LOL, I guess so

what really puzzle me is that if our photos represent a risk, then why simply not put sign asking people not to take photos..and we are not terrorists and they realized this after questioning us for that long but then if we go back home and display those photos on the Internet..who cares if we are terrorist or not, who cares who takes the photos? it will be the same results no? if the only thing that they don't want is peole to take photos, I find it strange that they did not ask us to delete the photos or not to publish them. REally all they wanted is to know who we were and why we were taking photos, but the threat is still there, assuming there was one with the photos.

it puzzle me that after they knew who we were they did not even mentioned what to do with the photos..no rules of not posting them, no guidance, nothing. just go and call it a day.

Keith-C

--



Please do not start new thread for private message to me but send them to me via email instead! thanks.