What Happened to Selectivity???? Praise to Lorey!

[Wild_Man1]

This message is certainly unrequested and I am sure will not please some of you, without question. Just because we all own cameras that can take lots of images and at a very low cost doesn't justify skipping the editing process--that is, looking critically at your images and chosing the BEST of the images for posting, printing, displaying...

I just visited this month's E-10 Day site and couldn't believe that some people have 6-8 versions of one shooting session. Maybe my beliefs are such because I "cut my photographic teeth" using a 4x5 view camera where with the individual sheet of film in a film holder forced selectivity in my vision.

For example, one of the finest photographs depicting this month's theme was posted by Lorey Barnum--actually Lorey posted two but at different times and with entirely different subjects. BOTH were well thought out with the "theme" of the month very much in mind and both depicting that theme wonderfully.

Part of the photographic vision process is in learning to select the image most appropriate rather than letting the viewer have to select--this is your responsibility to the viewer.

Nuff said and viewing the theme page is a good visual exercise for all of us and we should all take a lesson from Lorey's images.

Again, sorry to offend if I have in fact done that, but the same messages goes for me as well--the added variety of all of our selectivity will produce a wider variety of images for all of us to enjoy.

Thanks for your indulgence.

 

[koo22]

Sorry you were disappointed with the rest of us, but I did the best I could, as I'm sure the others did. Some of us are professionals, others are beginners. The purpose of these challenges above all is to have fun with the E-10. There will always be some that are more experienced or have better technique than others. I think your criticism is too harsh. K.

This message is certainly unrequested and I am sure will not please
some of you, without question. Just because we all own cameras
that can take lots of images and at a very low cost doesn't justify
skipping the editing process--that is, looking critically at your
images and chosing the BEST of the images for posting, printing,
displaying...

I just visited this month's E-10 Day site and couldn't believe that
some people have 6-8 versions of one shooting session. Maybe my
beliefs are such because I "cut my photographic teeth" using a 4x5
view camera where with the individual sheet of film in a film
holder forced selectivity in my vision.

For example, one of the finest photographs depicting this month's
theme was posted by Lorey Barnum--actually Lorey posted two but at
different times and with entirely different subjects. BOTH were
well thought out with the "theme" of the month very much in mind
and both depicting that theme wonderfully.

Part of the photographic vision process is in learning to select
the image most appropriate rather than letting the viewer have to
select--this is your responsibility to the viewer.

Nuff said and viewing the theme page is a good visual exercise for
all of us and we should all take a lesson from Lorey's images.

Again, sorry to offend if I have in fact done that, but the same
messages goes for me as well--the added variety of all of our
selectivity will produce a wider variety of images for all of us to
enjoy.

Thanks for your indulgence.

 

[Wild_Man1]

Doesn't take a professional to be selective at all--something that certainly can be learned and I am NOT referring to technical ability but rather selective vision--that which separates those with a camera and those with a blank canvas. Sorry that you took my words personally but I do not believe that you posted tons of the same image with subtle variations either Koo.

 

[koo22]

I understand what you're saying now, but when this "challenge" idea first started, we emphasized that it was not a contest, and the purpose was to learn and have fun. I wasn't speaking just for myself (I did post shots of the same "event"...haven't had much more time to shoot), but there are people here who may be reluctant to post because it's new to them, and we've been encouraging lots of posts for that reason. I admit I haven't looked at every single page on the site, but what I did see didn't look very repetitive. I thought you were referring to technical ability....if that's not what you meant, I'm sorry for jumping to that conclusion. K.

Doesn't take a professional to be selective at all--something that
certainly can be learned and I am NOT referring to technical
ability but rather selective vision--that which separates those
with a camera and those with a blank canvas. Sorry that you took
my words personally but I do not believe that you posted tons of
the same image with subtle variations either Koo.

 

[Greg Eddinger]

Chuck Hamilton wrote:
Just because we all own cameras

that can take lots of images and at a very low cost doesn't justify
skipping the editing process--that is, looking critically at your
images and choosing the BEST of the images for posting, printing,
displaying...

Part of the photographic vision process is in learning to select
the image most appropriate rather than letting the viewer have to
select--this is your responsibility to the viewer.

Chuck: I think your statement sums it up pretty well. Part of the photographic vision process is in LEARNING to select the image most appropriate. LEARNING is why many post their photo's up on the board. They submit themselves to critic and ridicule with the hope that someone might teach them, by example, how pick the best photo. Their hope is that someone might tell them why A is better than B or C. Many consumers prefer oversaturated images, those with more experience will generally prefer a true to life image. I think you get the picture so I won't go on and on with repetitive illustrations.

Nuff said and viewing the theme page is a good visual exercise for
all of us and we should all take a lesson from Lorey's images.

I agree

Again, sorry to offend if I have in fact done that, but the same
messages goes for me as well--the added variety of all of our
selectivity will produce a wider variety of images for all of us to
enjoy.
Thanks for your indulgence.

Not offended. BTW Caps were used since their is no underline option. Not shouting. I appreciate your sesitivity. Greg

 

[Paul Sumi]

Greg,

Nicely put. And part of the learning is seeing other people's work as well as having others see your's. Even though there is no "crit" as such, I think that the monthly photo posting is a great way to learn and to get new ideas.

To me, one of the most important aspects of the monthly Challenges is that they can "stretch" one into areas that one may not normally photograph. For example, "action" is not a format I usually shoot. But I've gotten some ideas how to re-shoot a couple of the pictures I submitted to better illustrate the point.

As Koo said, these are not contests or competitions, and I think this is the right way to encourage people to post, give and get feedback, and learn. Chuck's point about selectivity is well-taken, and is integral to this process.

Paul

Part of the photographic vision process is in learning to select
the image most appropriate rather than letting the viewer have to
select--this is your responsibility to the viewer.

Chuck: I think your statement sums it up pretty well. Part of the
photographic vision process is in LEARNING to select the image most
appropriate. LEARNING is why many post their photo's up on the
board. They submit themselves to critic and ridicule with the hope
that someone might teach them, by example, how pick the best photo.

 

[KennyC]

Chuck Hamilton wrote:
Just because we all own cameras

that can take lots of images and at a very low cost doesn't justify
skipping the editing process--that is, looking critically at your
images and choosing the BEST of the images for posting, printing,
displaying...

I hesitate to reply to this but here goes. I'm guilty. The images I posted were repetitive. 4 images from the same shooting. They are not good quality by any standard. Clearly just snapshots, not art. My apologies if you wasted your time looking at them. My intent was merely to contribute since I haven't posted since the original E-10 day.

As I browse the site, I notice that there is not a lot of participation. Perhaps most others are more selective than I.

BTW, Lorey's shots are impressive. Obviously well thought out and executed flawlessly. Perhaps I will post again if I can ever reach this level.

Ken Choate
Photo Hack at large

 

[Wild_Man1]

Koo - If you note I also included MYSELF in that critique as well - I posted two swimming shots (did shoot about 40 images) but have two daughters LOL - couldn't chose one! And the last month's challenge, I too had 3 or 4 variations on the same subject due to lack of selectivity...hopefully I will improve too...

 

[Wild_Man1]

Ken: Apparently you missed my point of all of us learning including moi! And "art" is truly in the eye of the beholder for sure--and some of us love "control" while others love the "by chance" photograph--pure documentary and others love just to capture family, pets, flowers, etc. -- all of which have a place in photography. I truly did not mean to imply that only art or pro levels are acceptable--but I thought Lorey's work re: the theme was exceptionally well thought out - and I have always tried to keep this brain of mine working along with my shutter finger regardless of what I am shooting and for what purpose... Again, no discouragement meant and it appears I needed an eraser for that post...

With apologies,
Chuck

 

[William C]

Chuck

I totally agree with you and if anyone if offended by
the polite issue you posted, then they are the problem.

My problem with you is, if at all is a problem, are you
pointing this out to those photographers that posted
the 6 - 8 similar photos? If not, you are not helping
them or educating them.

My two cents.

Bill

 

[Tom Meeks]

When I first embatked on the project of shooting my daughter's artwork, I scoured the shelves for good books on photographic technique. Having purchased FAR too many, I now return, time after time, to John Hedgecoe's book subtled "How to see and take better pictures".

What I get from your message is that selecting is SEEING... and SEEING better and more discriminantly is really the key to learning how to take better pictures. By disciplining ourselves to select one or two images forces us to SEE better... so, for me, your point is well taken.

An exception would be when trying to get help in determining what is going on with some random mechanical problem... or when trying to get help in how to setup or frame images better. Then, several samples is helpful so that the helpers can give clues as to why one or the other angles is better, etc.

This message is certainly unrequested and I am sure will not please
some of you, without question. Just because we all own cameras
that can take lots of images and at a very low cost doesn't justify
skipping the editing process--that is, looking critically at your
images and chosing the BEST of the images for posting, printing,
displaying...

I just visited this month's E-10 Day site and couldn't believe that
some people have 6-8 versions of one shooting session. Maybe my
beliefs are such because I "cut my photographic teeth" using a 4x5
view camera where with the individual sheet of film in a film
holder forced selectivity in my vision.

For example, one of the finest photographs depicting this month's
theme was posted by Lorey Barnum--actually Lorey posted two but at
different times and with entirely different subjects. BOTH were
well thought out with the "theme" of the month very much in mind
and both depicting that theme wonderfully.

Part of the photographic vision process is in learning to select
the image most appropriate rather than letting the viewer have to
select--this is your responsibility to the viewer.

Nuff said and viewing the theme page is a good visual exercise for
all of us and we should all take a lesson from Lorey's images.

Again, sorry to offend if I have in fact done that, but the same
messages goes for me as well--the added variety of all of our
selectivity will produce a wider variety of images for all of us to
enjoy.

Thanks for your indulgence.

 

[Tom Meeks]

It was good that you DID reply.

I think that Chuck was right when he said that you missed the point; but, I might put it another way... by seeing ALL criticism as part of the learning process. That includes not only comments on framing, focus or processing; but, how to be selective as well. Learning to pick ONE 'best' sample from several competitive candidates contributes just as much to our growth as photographers (amateur or pro) as any of the other aspects.

I didn't hear him say that those who posted several were posting lots of bad pictures... as it seems you may have heard... but, that of those pictures there was probably one that was a cut above the others and that part of the process of geting better was disciplining ourselves to make that cut beforehand.

What DID bother me about youyr reply was this sentence, "Perhaps I will post again if I can ever reach this level."

Who is assuming that you HAVEN'T??? The critique was on quality; but, on quantity. So, PLEASE... KEEP on contributing!

In the early days of OC's I used to go to SIGGRAPH. The greatest thing about SIGGRAPH is the animation festival. There one could see works done on the world's fastest super-computers or works done on little 1.4mhz 4-color personal computers. ALL were appreciated more for their creativity and skill rather than hardware wizardry.

Amateur or Pro... it doesn't matter here. What matters is PROGRESS and GROWTH... in ALL it's facets.

Chuck Hamilton wrote:
Just because we all own cameras

that can take lots of images and at a very low cost doesn't justify
skipping the editing process--that is, looking critically at your
images and choosing the BEST of the images for posting, printing,
displaying...

I hesitate to reply to this but here goes. I'm guilty. The images I
posted were repetitive. 4 images from the same shooting. They are
not good quality by any standard. Clearly just snapshots, not art.
My apologies if you wasted your time looking at them. My intent was
merely to contribute since I haven't posted since the original E-10
day.

As I browse the site, I notice that there is not a lot of
participation. Perhaps most others are more selective than I.

BTW, Lorey's shots are impressive. Obviously well thought out and
executed flawlessly. Perhaps I will post again if I can ever reach
this level.

Ken Choate
Photo Hack at large

 

[Tom Meeks]

Editor's note: Should have been "The critique was NOT on quality; but, on quantity"

Of course this DID have to happen in a thread about editing BEFOREHAND!!!!

I think that Chuck was right when he said that you missed the
point; but, I might put it another way... by seeing ALL criticism
as part of the learning process. That includes not only comments
on framing, focus or processing; but, how to be selective as well.
Learning to pick ONE 'best' sample from several competitive
candidates contributes just as much to our growth as photographers
(amateur or pro) as any of the other aspects.

I didn't hear him say that those who posted several were posting
lots of bad pictures... as it seems you may have heard... but, that
of those pictures there was probably one that was a cut above the
others and that part of the process of geting better was
disciplining ourselves to make that cut beforehand.

What DID bother me about youyr reply was this sentence, "Perhaps I
will post again if I can ever reach this level."

Who is assuming that you HAVEN'T??? The critique was on quality;
but, on quantity. So, PLEASE... KEEP on contributing!

In the early days of OC's I used to go to SIGGRAPH. The greatest
thing about SIGGRAPH is the animation festival. There one could
see works done on the world's fastest super-computers or works done
on little 1.4mhz 4-color personal computers. ALL were appreciated
more for their creativity and skill rather than hardware wizardry.

Amateur or Pro... it doesn't matter here. What matters is PROGRESS
and GROWTH... in ALL it's facets.

Chuck Hamilton wrote:
Just because we all own cameras

that can take lots of images and at a very low cost doesn't justify
skipping the editing process--that is, looking critically at your
images and choosing the BEST of the images for posting, printing,
displaying...

I hesitate to reply to this but here goes. I'm guilty. The images I
posted were repetitive. 4 images from the same shooting. They are
not good quality by any standard. Clearly just snapshots, not art.
My apologies if you wasted your time looking at them. My intent was
merely to contribute since I haven't posted since the original E-10
day.

As I browse the site, I notice that there is not a lot of
participation. Perhaps most others are more selective than I.

BTW, Lorey's shots are impressive. Obviously well thought out and
executed flawlessly. Perhaps I will post again if I can ever reach
this level.

Ken Choate
Photo Hack at large

 

[DF]

....thanks for mentioning the Hedgecoe book. I admire your work and your approach, so I value the book suggestion. It is currently out of print, but I ordered a copy used from Amazon.

David

When I first embatked on the project of shooting my daughter's
artwork, I scoured the shelves for good books on photographic
technique. Having purchased FAR too many, I now return, time after
time, to John Hedgecoe's book subtled "How to see and take better
pictures".

 

[climie]

The pro throws the bad ones away.

Some old photographer told me that once... oh well.

EDIT! EDIT! EDIT!

So ruthless in the edit, I have nothing to post.

Marc

;^)

 

[Paul Sumi]

AND the professional makes his/her living knowing the difference between the good and bad ones. The pro who doesn't choose well will soon not be able to pay the bills. ;-)

The rest of us have to rely on our own sensibility, any education/training, and the feedback of others. But I entirely agree with your EDIT statement.

Marc, one comment on your "so ruthless" remark, and this is NOT meant to be a jab. Being ruthless is appropriate when you know what went wrong - focus, exposure, missed the moment, or just not a well-seen composition. But I think that one learns more from showing the ones that you can't quite figure out why they don't work as the ones that are perfect.

Kind regards,

Paul

The pro throws the bad ones away.

Some old photographer told me that once... oh well.

EDIT! EDIT! EDIT!

So ruthless in the edit, I have nothing to post.

Marc

;^)

 

[climie]

AND the professional makes his/her living knowing the difference
between the good and bad ones. The pro who doesn't choose well
will soon not be able to pay the bills. ;-)

The rest of us have to rely on our own sensibility, any
education/training, and the feedback of others. But I entirely
agree with your EDIT statement.

Marc, one comment on your "so ruthless" remark, and this is NOT
meant to be a jab. Being ruthless is appropriate when you know
what went wrong - focus, exposure, missed the moment, or just not a
well-seen composition. But I think that one learns more from
showing the ones that you can't quite figure out why they don't
work as the ones that are perfect.

Kind regards,

Paul

My post was entirely tongue in cheek. Yes, I am very critical of my own work, much more than anyone else's work because I know exactly what I was going for and why I didn't get it. One thing a formal photo education has afforded me is the ability to stand back and take a shredding, leaving the emotion of creating it out of the equation entirely. The image must stand without the ifs and whys. Years of face to face group critiques really helps. It's good to be never content with your images, in my opinion.

Any pro knows that, without the ability to be self critical, you won't get very far in the 'real world' because the people looking at your book aren't going to critique it for you. They will simply say 'thank you -we'll call you' and you will be waiting by the phone like a bad date.

Regards,

Marc

 

[Paul Sumi]

Hi Marc,

Thanks for the clarification, I couldn't tell whether you were being humorous or serious in the tone of your first post. Although I know that your key message that the image must stand on its own without any excuses is dead serious and correct.

Your formal photography education is an advantage that many of us "civilians" don't have. We may be self-taught or have taken photography in high school, college or evening extension classes. But this can't match the intense, single-minded regimen that you undertook.

One way that we learn is by example from people like you. I'm not saying that you have an obligation or responsibility to do so, but .

Best regards,

Paul

Regards,

Marc

Marc, one comment on your "so ruthless" remark, and this is NOT
meant to be a jab. Being ruthless is appropriate when you know
what went wrong - focus, exposure, missed the moment, or just not a
well-seen composition. But I think that one learns more from
showing the ones that you can't quite figure out why they don't
work as the ones that are perfect.

Kind regards,

Paul

 

[Wild_Man1]

The formal education process and the attendant "critique board" is an excellent learning arena--both from a student's and a teacher's perspective. When an assignment is given, one image must represent the answer--technically good or not so good, visually exciting or not, composed well or not--that is the learning process.

I see the majority of you certainly understand my original post and one of you so eloquently put it it is quality not quantity. Yes, editing your own work is a learned skill and rightfully so, you should be your toughest critic.

This forum has all the potential of replicating that "critique board" but yet, here, it is difficult to "express" without the addition of body language and facial expression, tonal inflections, etc. Misunderstandings happen way too easily and what I am most fearful of is alienating someone from posting--not my intent at all! Keep 'em coming but as you do so, take the risk of making a decision about which image best represents what it is you are trying to accomplish.

Thanks for the indulgence!

 

[Paul Sumi]

Chuck,

Time to resurrect the "international E-10 photographers convention" idea I saw here a while back. You know, the one where we all stay over at Jaja's home (he says, tongue-in-cheek ).

I know that photography tends to be a solo pursuit, but what's wrong with organizing occasional local shoots or crits? Might be interesting, for example, to meet local E-10 Forum folks right after the next E-10 Day this fall to show and crit photographs.

Just my US $0.02.

Best,

Paul

This forum has all the potential of replicating that "critique
board" but yet, here, it is difficult to "express" without the
addition of body language and facial expression, tonal inflections,
etc. Misunderstandings happen way too easily and what I am most
fearful of is alienating someone from posting--not my intent at
all! Keep 'em coming but as you do so, take the risk of making a
decision about which image best represents what it is you are
trying to accomplish.