PC HELL- The Next Installment (LONGer than the last one)

I agree with you totally.....as to not wanting to upgrade to a newer OS that is your bussiness as well " If it aint broken don't fix it "....so why is it that Microsoft keeps making New software all the time if 98SE is so solid??

Sincerely
Jon J. Both (Edgeman)
The reason Printers don't work on the Mac OS is because they
"printer manufacturers" don't write proper drivers for them.....but
they soon do because it's Mac users that buy & upgrade their
equipment quite often..because we like using the latest & the
best....
Aha! Has it occurred to you that maybe some of the problems PC
owners go through are related to bad drivers/software? As I've
stated, I've run across this type of thing in the past, though
rarely, but I don't fault the OS or platform for it.
 
I apologize for the remarks regarding your statements....can I get that cookie now "Chocate Chip"???

BTW the only reason I post is when I see you flaming someone else.

Sincerely
Jon J. Both (Edgeman)

PS personally I think these PC vs Mac debates are a total waste of yours & mine time!!
Bob.....**** everytime these debates arises you rear your ugly
heads....
Well, I never said I was pretty. Keep in mind that the debate
always arises when some Mac user raises his/her head with pompous
statements about how superior their Macs are and how jealous we PC
users are for the joys of Mac ownership. The only thing I've tried
to point out to Mac owners is that (1) A properly set-up PC is as
reliable and efficient for graphics work as a Mac and (2) some Mac
owners are religious zealots, most (not all!) knowing little about
the workings of computers. Disclaimer: Most PC owners also know
little about their machines, but almost all gurus, home-builders,
and programmers use the PC platform. If you resent that, so be
it--but everytime a Mac owner becomes pompous and makes irrational
statements on this forum, I'll "rear my ugly head" and attempt to
set them straight. Keep your statements civil, rational, and
without religious fervor and I don't think anyone will ruffle your
feathers.
I remember when we had SCSI built in you jerks thought it was
shit...
Jon, now you're rearing your ugly head with personal attacks and
irrational, blanket statements so common with Mac zealots. For the
record, I never resorted to this. FWIW, I've been using SCSI for
10 years on PC's and never thought it was "shit." I now have six
SCSI devices attached to this PC, although my hard drive interface
of choice at the moment is is ATA100 (EIDE).
...and as soon as we went to something better like the Firewire
connection you adapted like it was your own....
I never said that and don't recall anyone doing so, but my
two-year-old Sony VAIO has firewire installed. I admit that Mac
introduced it. You want a cookie?
...now Mr. Bill ?
"Microsoft" is going to add that to the new OS.sss he's going to
create ...afterall if who would he copy for his New Operating
System if he didn't have someone to swipe from???
Jon, you're getting your panties in a wad and your religious
zealotry is showing.
...why did he
afterall invest in Apple?? so he could have some incentive to copy
Apple...like give your heads a shake..and wake up...as I said
before there are Mac users & those who wish they were...and you
fall into that later catagory!!!
I don't know why he invested in Apple. Get a grip, Jon.
So leave this fine thread..where someone just proved that PC's to
work with and set up are a great pain in the ass...while we do not
have any such problems....sure there are Mac users that screw
around with settings they know nothing about and have
problems...but not as many PC users afterall you guys have 80+% of
the market...so I think that there are a lot more of you having
problems..than us Mac users.
Geez, Jon, you are really foaming at the mouth. Spin down, man! I
don't know what the stats are for repair issues, but I have clients
with Macs who have far more problems that I do with my PC. I can
only go by what I see, but I wouldn't make a rash statement that
PC's are categorically more reliable than Macs, because in the
grand scheme of things I really don't know.
 
Stanton here is some interesting info:
http://www.nationalpost.com/search/story.html?f=/stories/20010507/553915.html

Jon J. Both (Edgeman)
If you are inclined to be rude, insulting and PERSONAL- please go
elsewhere. SK

Bob,

Your sister-in-law may have purchased her beige G3 two years ago,
but it is significantly older than that. I have an original G4 that
is approximately two years old and the translucent G3's came before
that.

USB was introduced on Apple models with the translucent G3's and
the first iMac. It was also introduced on the PC at the same
time...hence UNIVERSAL serial bus. FWIW, all PowerMacs with PCI
slots can be updated to accomodate both USB as long as they run OS
8.6 or later which provides USB support (all Macs after 1995 have
that capability). The USB card costs $30. Drivers are already
installed on the OS (8.6 and later). I have USB on my Mac 8600
(circa 1996), which predates the beige G3 and on which I type at
this very moment. For a computer that is pre-G3, with a limited
amount of RAM (160mb) the 8600/300 is pretty darn fast. I got it
just when the beige G3's came out (approx 1997) and paid $1200
for it, which was a steal at the time.

Other stuff worth noting, as long as we're talking about
pre-historic Macs . I have two ORIGINAL Apple Extended II
keyboards purchased in 1987 & 88 which I think I paid around $160
each. I have one here and one at the office (on my G4). The amount
of time that I've used these keyboards is a testament to the
durablity and quality that once marked Apple products. Its a shame
that the price of computers is based on gigahertz and gigabytes
rather than good old SOLID engineering and manufacturing. FWIW,
that 1988 Mac SE that came with the keyboard was just retired
two years ago. I'd say I got my money's worth out of it. It owes me
nothing.

One thing that continues to amaze me is how long I can continue to
upgrade the operating systems on my older Macs, with or without
upgrading applications. My original PowerMac 7100 (NuBus) 66,
converted to 80 purchased in 1994 is happily running OS 8.6 and is
used daily. It is no longer required to run Photoshop, and you know
what?... Its fast enough for most stuff. Its little brother, the
6100, purchased at the same time sits on my production manager's
desk. She is not a technical person and uses it for Word, Excel,
Quark Xpress, and Filemaker Pro. No, its not fast enough to play
today's video games or render 3D. But we don't use our computers as
toys, nor are we engineers that require 3D. Sure, it would be nice
to have a little faster network access, but frankly the iMac 400
she had wasn't being utilized to it fullest capacity, so it was
moved into a production role and moved the 6100 back to an
administrative function. Though it is always nice to have more
speed, it is not essential.


My point? You can't always measure the value of a product in terms
of short term cash outlay and raw processor speed. Though Macs have
always been more expensive (sometimes drastically) than their PC
counterparts, the useful life of (the higher end) Macs is almost
astounding. Another point to consider is that Apple does not try to
make its profits with bogus licensing schemes of its OS. You can
buy a FULL version of OSX for $129 (full retail price), and only if
you care to upgrade. Most Mac software applications are backwards
compatible. Compare that with $299 for Win2k. Also, within the
Windows systems, you need to have the correct version of the
software that supports the specific OS you are running. The Apple
OS doesn't search around your hardware to make sure you have a
license before allowing you to upgrade the OS.

Another point that I appreciate is that Apple, within its niche,
really pushes the envelope to devlop new and exciting stuff. PC
users can really thank Apple for developing all this neat stuff,
because it is the substance from which Microsoft has copied most of
its ideas. Apple is the first computer manufacturer to sell a
computer out of the box with DVD-RAM and now DVD-RW (Pioneer
A03...A for Apple). Affordable (if $1000 is affordable) DVD-RW has
just been released as an add-on component (Pioneer 103) for PC's
and earlier Macs. Additionally, Apple has developed some awesome
software, both for the average user and pro. Examples? Final Cut
Pro and iMovie. DV Studio Pro and iDVD. Let us not forget Claris
and Filemaker Pro.

Just look at what the Mac has done, not only for the Mac user, but
for all PC users. Apple has brought the computer to mainstream
America...even if mainstream America only knows about PC's. It
keeps coming out with new and exciting things and continues to
innovate. There is a reason why every generation of the
Microsoft's OS looks more and more like the Mac OS.

Sincerely,
Stanton
There have been USB ports in all Apple products since the introduction of
the iMac, over 3 years ago. There has not been a MAC without USB

created since then, so your statement about someone with a one-year > old mac without USB ports is WRONG. You don't know what you are
talking about.
I emailed my sister-in-law who owns a Mac and she says her system
is 2* years old and is a "biege G3." It has no USB ports. FWIW,
my 3*-year-old Aopen AX6BC motherboard had USB ports. I may not
know what I'm talking about in the Mac realm, but I'm apparently
not wrong in this case.

I will check on the other unit today.
 
The one experience with my first MacII that always stayed with me was the fact that, back in '87, I could plug a new graphics card into a slot, close the lid on that beautifully designed casing (frogdesign!), hook up another monitor (razorsharp!), hit the power-on key (unique!), hear that well-composed startup boing (first!) and hey: my desktop area had become twice as large, without seeing a single dialog box!

For me it has been plug-and-play ever since. Not that all the macs I have worn out to date were flawless, no sir, neither were they ever cheap but they had an insanely great user experience to offer, always on the cutting edge.
Just like my D1.

And quite contrary to any PC I ever laid my hands on.

Cheers!
Mark Ossen
 
Lets rewrite history!! I was under the impression that IBM brought the computer to mainstream America...and you are not a zealot...right...
If you are inclined to be rude, insulting and PERSONAL- please go
elsewhere. SK

Bob,

Your sister-in-law may have purchased her beige G3 two years ago,
but it is significantly older than that. I have an original G4 that
is approximately two years old and the translucent G3's came before
that.

USB was introduced on Apple models with the translucent G3's and
the first iMac. It was also introduced on the PC at the same
time...hence UNIVERSAL serial bus. FWIW, all PowerMacs with PCI
slots can be updated to accomodate both USB as long as they run OS
8.6 or later which provides USB support (all Macs after 1995 have
that capability). The USB card costs $30. Drivers are already
installed on the OS (8.6 and later). I have USB on my Mac 8600
(circa 1996), which predates the beige G3 and on which I type at
this very moment. For a computer that is pre-G3, with a limited
amount of RAM (160mb) the 8600/300 is pretty darn fast. I got it
just when the beige G3's came out (approx 1997) and paid $1200
for it, which was a steal at the time.

Other stuff worth noting, as long as we're talking about
pre-historic Macs . I have two ORIGINAL Apple Extended II
keyboards purchased in 1987 & 88 which I think I paid around $160
each. I have one here and one at the office (on my G4). The amount
of time that I've used these keyboards is a testament to the
durablity and quality that once marked Apple products. Its a shame
that the price of computers is based on gigahertz and gigabytes
rather than good old SOLID engineering and manufacturing. FWIW,
that 1988 Mac SE that came with the keyboard was just retired
two years ago. I'd say I got my money's worth out of it. It owes me
nothing.

One thing that continues to amaze me is how long I can continue to
upgrade the operating systems on my older Macs, with or without
upgrading applications. My original PowerMac 7100 (NuBus) 66,
converted to 80 purchased in 1994 is happily running OS 8.6 and is
used daily. It is no longer required to run Photoshop, and you know
what?... Its fast enough for most stuff. Its little brother, the
6100, purchased at the same time sits on my production manager's
desk. She is not a technical person and uses it for Word, Excel,
Quark Xpress, and Filemaker Pro. No, its not fast enough to play
today's video games or render 3D. But we don't use our computers as
toys, nor are we engineers that require 3D. Sure, it would be nice
to have a little faster network access, but frankly the iMac 400
she had wasn't being utilized to it fullest capacity, so it was
moved into a production role and moved the 6100 back to an
administrative function. Though it is always nice to have more
speed, it is not essential.


My point? You can't always measure the value of a product in terms
of short term cash outlay and raw processor speed. Though Macs have
always been more expensive (sometimes drastically) than their PC
counterparts, the useful life of (the higher end) Macs is almost
astounding. Another point to consider is that Apple does not try to
make its profits with bogus licensing schemes of its OS. You can
buy a FULL version of OSX for $129 (full retail price), and only if
you care to upgrade. Most Mac software applications are backwards
compatible. Compare that with $299 for Win2k. Also, within the
Windows systems, you need to have the correct version of the
software that supports the specific OS you are running. The Apple
OS doesn't search around your hardware to make sure you have a
license before allowing you to upgrade the OS.

Another point that I appreciate is that Apple, within its niche,
really pushes the envelope to devlop new and exciting stuff. PC
users can really thank Apple for developing all this neat stuff,
because it is the substance from which Microsoft has copied most of
its ideas. Apple is the first computer manufacturer to sell a
computer out of the box with DVD-RAM and now DVD-RW (Pioneer
A03...A for Apple). Affordable (if $1000 is affordable) DVD-RW has
just been released as an add-on component (Pioneer 103) for PC's
and earlier Macs. Additionally, Apple has developed some awesome
software, both for the average user and pro. Examples? Final Cut
Pro and iMovie. DV Studio Pro and iDVD. Let us not forget Claris
and Filemaker Pro.

Just look at what the Mac has done, not only for the Mac user, but
for all PC users. Apple has brought the computer to mainstream
America...even if mainstream America only knows about PC's. It
keeps coming out with new and exciting things and continues to
innovate. There is a reason why every generation of the
Microsoft's OS looks more and more like the Mac OS.

Sincerely,
Stanton
There have been USB ports in all Apple products since the introduction of
the iMac, over 3 years ago. There has not been a MAC without USB

created since then, so your statement about someone with a one-year > old mac without USB ports is WRONG. You don't know what you are
talking about.
I emailed my sister-in-law who owns a Mac and she says her system
is 2* years old and is a "biege G3." It has no USB ports. FWIW,
my 3*-year-old Aopen AX6BC motherboard had USB ports. I may not
know what I'm talking about in the Mac realm, but I'm apparently
not wrong in this case.

I will check on the other unit today.
 
I apologize for the remarks regarding your statements....can I get
that cookie now "Chocate Chip"???
Yes, and we've found common ground! I favor chocolate chip too.
BTW the only reason I post is when I see you flaming someone else.
I don't know where you've seen me flame anyone. I do site religious fervor when I see it, and blanket statements that PC's are worthless and Macs rule the world. Such, of course, isn't the case. Macs have their place and so do PC's, but there's lots more overlap now that in the past. That's really my thrust.
 
If you are inclined to be rude, insulting and PERSONAL- please go
elsewhere. SK
I wouldn't even contemplate such abhorrent conduct.
Your sister-in-law may have purchased her beige G3 two years ago,
but it is significantly older than that.
She claims she bought it new at that time. Maybe she got ripped off, but she's a long-time Mac user and I rather doubt it. As I said, I'm not an aficionado of Mac history, and am merely reporting what I'm told.

I retract my statement about the one-year-old Mac with no USB that I referenced earlier. The owner doesn't even know what model it is, and I certainly can't tell by looking at it (biege case), but claims she acquired it last year. I suspect it is indeed older than that. Imagine not knowing what model computer you work with! It's an abomination.
Other stuff worth noting, as long as we're talking about
pre-historic Macs .
I'm one up on you. I still have my first computer, an Osborne 1 (circa about 1982, CPM OS, 64k of non-upgradeable memory. Yes, I said 64k). Maybe it'll be a collectors item one day.
Another point that I appreciate is that Apple, within its niche,
really pushes the envelope to devlop new and exciting stuff.
Just look at what the Mac has done, not only for the Mac user, but
for all PC users.
Apple has brought the computer to mainstream
America...even if mainstream America only knows about PC's. It
keeps coming out with new and exciting things and continues to
innovate. There is a reason why every generation of the
Microsoft's OS looks more and more like the Mac OS.
Uh, excuse me while I wipe off some of this froth you are slinging around the forum. Okay, now...no one ever said Macs weren't good machines or lacking in a niche, or if they did they are wrong. Each platform has its place, but in a modern context each platform overlaps the other's much more than even last year. PC's are now competent in graphics applications, and more non-graphics programs are becoming available for Macs. I keep thinking that one day it'll all merge into one platform, taking the best of both worlds, but it never seems to happen.
 
I agree with you totally.....as to not wanting to upgrade to a
newer OS that is your bussiness as well " If it aint broken don't
fix it "....so why is it that Microsoft keeps making New software
all the time if 98SE is so solid??
Well, yes, I do. Bill needs to pay for his new house.

Anyway, I've heard many people say that W2K is more stable than Win98SE, but I have no need to upgrade at this time. I'm very stable and this OS does what I need. I have no emotional need to constantly upgrade to the newest, latest toy--be it software, OS, or hardware--any more than I need the newest camera just because it is the newest.

Alas, I did jump to buy my new D1X, though I really do need the hi-res capability.
 
Lets rewrite history!! I was under the impression that IBM brought
the computer to mainstream America...
Let me rephrase what I meant. Apple brought the computer into the lives of average people who did not have the training or technical accumen to deal with the good 'ol DOS. Windows came into being when??? Apple brought computing to THE REST OF US.

and you are not a
zealot...right...
You can think what you like. I am a strong proponent of the Mac platform. It provides folks with who have different thought processes and learning styles to be as functional (on a practical level) on a computer as the computer geeks who eat schematics and poop code. The Mac has revolutionized the graphics, typesetting, photography and publishing industries. Of course Microsoft followed with its "Me Too" products. I was already creating composite images on my Mac and making digital prints while Microsoft was introducing Windows 3.1 (or was it 3.5?).

I know you've been following these posts. ALL of mine have been written with honesty and sincerity. Just because I "call it like I see it" doesn't necessarily make me a zealot. Even though one may be a zealot, it is not a mutually exclusive proposition. I have no reason to bash PC's. I've invested a fair amount of money and personal resources in making it (and me) operation. I think I'm going to like my PC. I will (in time) most likely be able to do everything on the PC that I can with the Mac...but not without a lot of help and guidance. The PC is complex and complicated and requires much of the use. The Mac is simply... simpler. And THAT'S what I like about it. My forte is photography, not computing...and that is where I want to spend my time.

Sincerely,
Stanton
If you are inclined to be rude, insulting and PERSONAL- please go
elsewhere. SK

Bob,

Your sister-in-law may have purchased her beige G3 two years ago,
but it is significantly older than that. I have an original G4 that
is approximately two years old and the translucent G3's came before
that.

USB was introduced on Apple models with the translucent G3's and
the first iMac. It was also introduced on the PC at the same
time...hence UNIVERSAL serial bus. FWIW, all PowerMacs with PCI
slots can be updated to accomodate both USB as long as they run OS
8.6 or later which provides USB support (all Macs after 1995 have
that capability). The USB card costs $30. Drivers are already
installed on the OS (8.6 and later). I have USB on my Mac 8600
(circa 1996), which predates the beige G3 and on which I type at
this very moment. For a computer that is pre-G3, with a limited
amount of RAM (160mb) the 8600/300 is pretty darn fast. I got it
just when the beige G3's came out (approx 1997) and paid $1200
for it, which was a steal at the time.

Other stuff worth noting, as long as we're talking about
pre-historic Macs . I have two ORIGINAL Apple Extended II
keyboards purchased in 1987 & 88 which I think I paid around $160
each. I have one here and one at the office (on my G4). The amount
of time that I've used these keyboards is a testament to the
durablity and quality that once marked Apple products. Its a shame
that the price of computers is based on gigahertz and gigabytes
rather than good old SOLID engineering and manufacturing. FWIW,
that 1988 Mac SE that came with the keyboard was just retired
two years ago. I'd say I got my money's worth out of it. It owes me
nothing.

One thing that continues to amaze me is how long I can continue to
upgrade the operating systems on my older Macs, with or without
upgrading applications. My original PowerMac 7100 (NuBus) 66,
converted to 80 purchased in 1994 is happily running OS 8.6 and is
used daily. It is no longer required to run Photoshop, and you know
what?... Its fast enough for most stuff. Its little brother, the
6100, purchased at the same time sits on my production manager's
desk. She is not a technical person and uses it for Word, Excel,
Quark Xpress, and Filemaker Pro. No, its not fast enough to play
today's video games or render 3D. But we don't use our computers as
toys, nor are we engineers that require 3D. Sure, it would be nice
to have a little faster network access, but frankly the iMac 400
she had wasn't being utilized to it fullest capacity, so it was
moved into a production role and moved the 6100 back to an
administrative function. Though it is always nice to have more
speed, it is not essential.


My point? You can't always measure the value of a product in terms
of short term cash outlay and raw processor speed. Though Macs have
always been more expensive (sometimes drastically) than their PC
counterparts, the useful life of (the higher end) Macs is almost
astounding. Another point to consider is that Apple does not try to
make its profits with bogus licensing schemes of its OS. You can
buy a FULL version of OSX for $129 (full retail price), and only if
you care to upgrade. Most Mac software applications are backwards
compatible. Compare that with $299 for Win2k. Also, within the
Windows systems, you need to have the correct version of the
software that supports the specific OS you are running. The Apple
OS doesn't search around your hardware to make sure you have a
license before allowing you to upgrade the OS.

Another point that I appreciate is that Apple, within its niche,
really pushes the envelope to devlop new and exciting stuff. PC
users can really thank Apple for developing all this neat stuff,
because it is the substance from which Microsoft has copied most of
its ideas. Apple is the first computer manufacturer to sell a
computer out of the box with DVD-RAM and now DVD-RW (Pioneer
A03...A for Apple). Affordable (if $1000 is affordable) DVD-RW has
just been released as an add-on component (Pioneer 103) for PC's
and earlier Macs. Additionally, Apple has developed some awesome
software, both for the average user and pro. Examples? Final Cut
Pro and iMovie. DV Studio Pro and iDVD. Let us not forget Claris
and Filemaker Pro.

Just look at what the Mac has done, not only for the Mac user, but
for all PC users. Apple has brought the computer to mainstream
America...even if mainstream America only knows about PC's. It
keeps coming out with new and exciting things and continues to
innovate. There is a reason why every generation of the
Microsoft's OS looks more and more like the Mac OS.

Sincerely,
Stanton
There have been USB ports in all Apple products since the introduction of
the iMac, over 3 years ago. There has not been a MAC without USB

created since then, so your statement about someone with a one-year > old mac without USB ports is WRONG. You don't know what you are
talking about.
I emailed my sister-in-law who owns a Mac and she says her system
is 2* years old and is a "biege G3." It has no USB ports. FWIW,
my 3*-year-old Aopen AX6BC motherboard had USB ports. I may not
know what I'm talking about in the Mac realm, but I'm apparently
not wrong in this case.

I will check on the other unit today.
 
Bob you made a great choice with the D1X a great accurate color correct camera....I myself is using a D30..which I'm very happy with....good luck & happy shooting with your new camera....congrats!!!

Sincerely
Jon J. Both (Edgeman)
I agree with you totally.....as to not wanting to upgrade to a
newer OS that is your bussiness as well " If it aint broken don't
fix it "....so why is it that Microsoft keeps making New software
all the time if 98SE is so solid??
Well, yes, I do. Bill needs to pay for his new house.

Anyway, I've heard many people say that W2K is more stable than
Win98SE, but I have no need to upgrade at this time. I'm very
stable and this OS does what I need. I have no emotional need to
constantly upgrade to the newest, latest toy--be it software, OS,
or hardware--any more than I need the newest camera just because it
is the newest.
Alas, I did jump to buy my new D1X, though I really do need the
hi-res capability.
 
Bob you made a great choice with the D1X a great accurate color
correct camera....I myself is using a D30..which I'm very happy
with....good luck & happy shooting with your new camera....congrats!!!
I feel good about that choice over the DCS760, a matter that I labored over for months.

I haven't had much chance to use the D1X, as I won't subject it to any real jobs 'til I test it thoroughly, but what little I've seen from the camera looks impressive. I miss the ISO 200 speed of the D1, but the D1X has such an option that needs testing to see if it messures up to the same setting of the D1. A quick test yesterday suggests that it will. Even though much of the time I'll be shooting raw files at "medium" resolution (same as D1), I like the quicker writes to the card, which means it'll probably get more use than the D1.
 
Lets rewrite history!! I was under the impression that IBM brought
the computer to mainstream America...
Well, yes, and no. It perhaps depends on what you call mainstream. IBM did not really conceive the PC. It owes its very beginnings in the PC market, and most of its initial success, to BOTH Apple and Microsoft (and the pioneers before them). Secondly, Apple and MS have been in bed together a lot more than people realise today, and each owes the other a helluva lot for its very existence today.

Here's a potted history for those too young to remember (or who have chosen to forget). I offer it as a (hopefully welcome) change from the flame war that's raging here:

1971:

Xerox set up the Palo Alto Research Centre as a pure think tank. By 1973(!!) its people had come up with the GUI, the mouse, the WYSIWYG screen, Ethernet, and the foundations of object oriented programming. But the personal computer hadn't yet been conceived and Xerox's target platform was mainframe. Also, the head office managers and bean counters (none of whom really knew much about the PARC project), couldn't see the point as they were only interested in copiers. And the whole GUI concept was eventually given to Apple on a plate.

1975:

The original "personal computer" was invented by Ed Roberts who, BTW, got out of the whole melée 3 or 4 years later and retrained as a doctor. It was the Altair, and it was essentially a hobbyist's machine.

Improved designs followed, by Apple, Radio Shack, Texas Instruments and others.

During this era, the fledgling Microsoft did quite well, thank you, flogging languages to everyone -- chiefly its derivation of BASIC for this class of computer (by Bill Gates and Paul Allen). Its interest in OSes only came much later, and apps later still.

1977:

The Apple II was launched, and was an immediate hit. But it remained a geek-only machine until late 1979. Again, the success was both MS's and Apple's -- MS had the language, Apple had a nicely engineered box to run it on.

1979 - October:

Visicalc appeared, ex Harvard, at the hands of Dave Bricklin (design) and Bob Frankston (code). It was the very first "spreadsheet" (although the actual term was coined much later), and it was designed to make use of the Apple II which had already been selling like hot cakes. Visicalc caused an accounting revolution, with statisticians and engineers also recognising its potential.

I'm not going to debate the meaning of "mainstream". But by the start of the eighties the Apple II's success, given a huge boost by Visicalc, had already turned personal computing into a $billion industry. And that alone is what got IBM's attention. Its prime interest was still in mainframes, but it couldn't help but notice what was going on.

1980-81:

IBM wanted a package from MS containing BASIC and an OS (which it wrongly assumed MS had in its arsenal). MS did some frantic running around and ended up buying an OS from Seattle Computer Products for $50k. That OS was QDOS, which was just a thinly disguised version of CP/M, and it became in turn PC-DOS. MS sold the package to IBM at a modest profit for a flat fee with no ties . Its master stroke was in recognising that IBM's open architecture hardware would be copied, and looked to the future in licensing the same OS to the inevitable clone manufacturers, initially at $50 per PC.

CP/M, by the way, the first true OS for personal computing, was designed by the late Gary Kildall who also founded Digital Research. His vision was to benefit the world -- not to own or sell licences to it -- and he did not patent CP/M. Here's a link for those interested:

http://www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9775/9775b/9775b.htm

1981 - August:

The IBM Acorn was launched. It was successful because of IBM's marketing clout, especially because it was able to use its corporate image (from mainframes) as credentials for the new consumer product. And because it also had Lotus 1-2-3 which removed users' dependence on Visicalc.

The IBM PC used largely off-the-shelf electronics, the only chip it actually owned being the BIOS. Compaq duly reverse engineered the BIOS, a zillion others did likewise; Gates & Co. cheerfully licensed their OS -- which they still owned -- to everyone as MS-DOS, and went on their way into history.

1982:

MS commenced development work on applications for Apple's GUI project which was to founder as the Lisa (too costly) and succeed as the Macintosh in 1984.

I.e. Microsoft cut its teeth on the Mac as far as apps are concerned, long before it had much interest in them for the PC platform.

1984:

The Mac was launched and aroused much interest but was still $1000 dearer than the IBM PC. It needed exclusive software to sell it, just as Visicalc had done for the Apple II. It found this in Adobe (ex Xerox personnel and an Apple shareholding) and started the publishing revolution, not least via the birth of the laser printer (the Xerox connection).

It was at about this time that MS started to get serious about ruling the world, building on its OS licence foothold, and ostensibly left Apple to go its own way as a DTP and imaging specialist. Although Apple had not invented the GUI, it brought it to maturity. I don't think there's much argument these days about MS's appropriation of the GUI from Apple once it found wide acceptance.

1990:

IBM eschewed the idea of an exclusive Windows deal with MS, and effectively sealed its own fate in the PC market.
------------------------------------------------------------------

The split we have today is entirely due to the human impossibility that two huge egos -- Steve Jobs and Bill Gates -- could ever coexist. I use both platforms; I don't take sides, and I've had plenty of reason to be bloody annoyed with the quirks of each. It's mind boggling to think what could have been achieved by now through open cooperation -- even amalgamation -- between the two camps.

Mike F
 
Hi Mike,

Thanks for an excellent "short history" of HowItAllHappened... just as I remember it!

Early on, I REALLY wanted to get into the MAC in a programming way and I STILL remember the strange shock I experienced when Mac Toolbox showed me HEX codes within the then current Mac OS... I was not sure there were any HEX codes inside there! But then, the programming effort moved rapidly to the PC platform(s) and thats the way I went (from CPM). I then loved Assembler, but very soon there were too many Traps, Geshtalts, and OS patches... degenerated into a programmers nightmare... so I switched to the PC. Sort of like these dpreview forums... lots more collective help and resources for the PC in a VAST and GROWING programmer community.
Thats all too bad.
You are "right on" about the Jobs/Gates personality thing.

The genius idea was to confer power to the people re computers, but...

Now Micro$oft plans to "rent" their software to us users, with upgrades and bug-fixes for MORE "rent"!!

And, Apple sells "cool color" plastic boxes, that no longer have Toolbox, Hypercard, SCSI... but with Power User (external device) Cabling all over the place behind their desks.
Its a cautionary tale about how crappy Marketing can ruin a GoodThing.
Looks to me like we computer freedom lovers migrate to Linux!
Bill Hansen
Lets rewrite history!! I was under the impression that IBM brought
the computer to mainstream America...
Well, yes, and no. It perhaps depends on what you call mainstream.
IBM did not really conceive the PC. It owes its very beginnings in
the PC market, and most of its initial success, to BOTH Apple and
Microsoft (and the pioneers before them). Secondly, Apple and MS
have been in bed together a lot more than people realise today, and
each owes the other a helluva lot for its very existence today.

Here's a potted history for those too young to remember (or who
have chosen to forget). I offer it as a (hopefully welcome) change
from the flame war that's raging here:

1971:
Xerox set up the Palo Alto Research Centre as a pure think tank. By
1973(!!) its people had come up with the GUI, the mouse, the
WYSIWYG screen, Ethernet, and the foundations of object oriented
programming. But the personal computer hadn't yet been conceived
and Xerox's target platform was mainframe. Also, the head office
managers and bean counters (none of whom really knew much about the
PARC project), couldn't see the point as they were only interested
in copiers. And the whole GUI concept was eventually given to Apple
on a plate.

1975:
The original "personal computer" was invented by Ed Roberts who,
BTW, got out of the whole melée 3 or 4 years later and retrained as
a doctor. It was the Altair, and it was essentially a hobbyist's
machine.

Improved designs followed, by Apple, Radio Shack, Texas Instruments
and others.

During this era, the fledgling Microsoft did quite well, thank you,
flogging languages to everyone -- chiefly its derivation of BASIC
for this class of computer (by Bill Gates and Paul Allen). Its
interest in OSes only came much later, and apps later still.

1977:
The Apple II was launched, and was an immediate hit. But it
remained a geek-only machine until late 1979. Again, the success
was both MS's and Apple's -- MS had the language, Apple had a
nicely engineered box to run it on.

1979 - October:
Visicalc appeared, ex Harvard, at the hands of Dave Bricklin
(design) and Bob Frankston (code). It was the very first
"spreadsheet" (although the actual term was coined much later), and
it was designed to make use of the Apple II which had already been
selling like hot cakes. Visicalc caused an accounting revolution,
with statisticians and engineers also recognising its potential.

I'm not going to debate the meaning of "mainstream". But by the
start of the eighties the Apple II's success, given a huge boost by
Visicalc, had already turned personal computing into a $billion
industry. And that alone is what got IBM's attention. Its prime
interest was still in mainframes, but it couldn't help but notice
what was going on.

1980-81:
IBM wanted a package from MS containing BASIC and an OS (which it
wrongly assumed MS had in its arsenal). MS did some frantic running
around and ended up buying an OS from Seattle Computer Products for
$50k. That OS was QDOS, which was just a thinly disguised version
of CP/M, and it became in turn PC-DOS. MS sold the package to IBM
at a modest profit for a flat fee with no ties . Its master stroke
was in recognising that IBM's open architecture hardware would be
copied, and looked to the future in licensing the same OS to the
inevitable clone manufacturers, initially at $50 per PC.

CP/M, by the way, the first true OS for personal computing, was
designed by the late Gary Kildall who also founded Digital
Research. His vision was to benefit the world -- not to own or sell
licences to it -- and he did not patent CP/M. Here's a link for
those interested:

http://www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9775/9775b/9775b.htm

1981 - August:
The IBM Acorn was launched. It was successful because of IBM's
marketing clout, especially because it was able to use its
corporate image (from mainframes) as credentials for the new
consumer product. And because it also had Lotus 1-2-3 which removed
users' dependence on Visicalc.

The IBM PC used largely off-the-shelf electronics, the only chip it
actually owned being the BIOS. Compaq duly reverse engineered the
BIOS, a zillion others did likewise; Gates & Co. cheerfully
licensed their OS -- which they still owned -- to everyone as
MS-DOS, and went on their way into history.

1982:
MS commenced development work on applications for Apple's GUI
project which was to founder as the Lisa (too costly) and succeed
as the Macintosh in 1984.

I.e. Microsoft cut its teeth on the Mac as far as apps are
concerned, long before it had much interest in them for the PC
platform.

1984:
The Mac was launched and aroused much interest but was still $1000
dearer than the IBM PC. It needed exclusive software to sell it,
just as Visicalc had done for the Apple II. It found this in Adobe
(ex Xerox personnel and an Apple shareholding) and started the
publishing revolution, not least via the birth of the laser printer
(the Xerox connection).

It was at about this time that MS started to get serious about
ruling the world, building on its OS licence foothold, and
ostensibly left Apple to go its own way as a DTP and imaging
specialist. Although Apple had not invented the GUI, it brought it
to maturity. I don't think there's much argument these days about
MS's appropriation of the GUI from Apple once it found wide
acceptance.

1990:
IBM eschewed the idea of an exclusive Windows deal with MS, and
effectively sealed its own fate in the PC market.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The split we have today is entirely due to the human impossibility
that two huge egos -- Steve Jobs and Bill Gates -- could ever
coexist. I use both platforms; I don't take sides, and I've had
plenty of reason to be bloody annoyed with the quirks of each. It's
mind boggling to think what could have been achieved by now through
open cooperation -- even amalgamation -- between the two camps.

Mike F
 
Gee Bill why not give OSX a look and see there are a great people very impressed with the beginnings of this "new" start for the MacIntosh personal computing softeware...you could be at the beginning but once again....take a look "try it you might like it"

Jon J. Both (Edgeman)
The genius idea was to confer power to the people re computers, but...
Now Micro$oft plans to "rent" their software to us users, with
upgrades and bug-fixes for MORE "rent"!!
And, Apple sells "cool color" plastic boxes, that no longer have
Toolbox, Hypercard, SCSI... but with Power User (external device)
Cabling all over the place behind their desks.
Its a cautionary tale about how crappy Marketing can ruin a GoodThing.
Looks to me like we computer freedom lovers migrate to Linux!
Bill Hansen
Lets rewrite history!! I was under the impression that IBM brought
the computer to mainstream America...
Well, yes, and no. It perhaps depends on what you call mainstream.
IBM did not really conceive the PC. It owes its very beginnings in
the PC market, and most of its initial success, to BOTH Apple and
Microsoft (and the pioneers before them). Secondly, Apple and MS
have been in bed together a lot more than people realise today, and
each owes the other a helluva lot for its very existence today.

Here's a potted history for those too young to remember (or who
have chosen to forget). I offer it as a (hopefully welcome) change
from the flame war that's raging here:

1971:
Xerox set up the Palo Alto Research Centre as a pure think tank. By
1973(!!) its people had come up with the GUI, the mouse, the
WYSIWYG screen, Ethernet, and the foundations of object oriented
programming. But the personal computer hadn't yet been conceived
and Xerox's target platform was mainframe. Also, the head office
managers and bean counters (none of whom really knew much about the
PARC project), couldn't see the point as they were only interested
in copiers. And the whole GUI concept was eventually given to Apple
on a plate.

1975:
The original "personal computer" was invented by Ed Roberts who,
BTW, got out of the whole melée 3 or 4 years later and retrained as
a doctor. It was the Altair, and it was essentially a hobbyist's
machine.

Improved designs followed, by Apple, Radio Shack, Texas Instruments
and others.

During this era, the fledgling Microsoft did quite well, thank you,
flogging languages to everyone -- chiefly its derivation of BASIC
for this class of computer (by Bill Gates and Paul Allen). Its
interest in OSes only came much later, and apps later still.

1977:
The Apple II was launched, and was an immediate hit. But it
remained a geek-only machine until late 1979. Again, the success
was both MS's and Apple's -- MS had the language, Apple had a
nicely engineered box to run it on.

1979 - October:
Visicalc appeared, ex Harvard, at the hands of Dave Bricklin
(design) and Bob Frankston (code). It was the very first
"spreadsheet" (although the actual term was coined much later), and
it was designed to make use of the Apple II which had already been
selling like hot cakes. Visicalc caused an accounting revolution,
with statisticians and engineers also recognising its potential.

I'm not going to debate the meaning of "mainstream". But by the
start of the eighties the Apple II's success, given a huge boost by
Visicalc, had already turned personal computing into a $billion
industry. And that alone is what got IBM's attention. Its prime
interest was still in mainframes, but it couldn't help but notice
what was going on.

1980-81:
IBM wanted a package from MS containing BASIC and an OS (which it
wrongly assumed MS had in its arsenal). MS did some frantic running
around and ended up buying an OS from Seattle Computer Products for
$50k. That OS was QDOS, which was just a thinly disguised version
of CP/M, and it became in turn PC-DOS. MS sold the package to IBM
at a modest profit for a flat fee with no ties . Its master stroke
was in recognising that IBM's open architecture hardware would be
copied, and looked to the future in licensing the same OS to the
inevitable clone manufacturers, initially at $50 per PC.

CP/M, by the way, the first true OS for personal computing, was
designed by the late Gary Kildall who also founded Digital
Research. His vision was to benefit the world -- not to own or sell
licences to it -- and he did not patent CP/M. Here's a link for
those interested:

http://www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9775/9775b/9775b.htm

1981 - August:
The IBM Acorn was launched. It was successful because of IBM's
marketing clout, especially because it was able to use its
corporate image (from mainframes) as credentials for the new
consumer product. And because it also had Lotus 1-2-3 which removed
users' dependence on Visicalc.

The IBM PC used largely off-the-shelf electronics, the only chip it
actually owned being the BIOS. Compaq duly reverse engineered the
BIOS, a zillion others did likewise; Gates & Co. cheerfully
licensed their OS -- which they still owned -- to everyone as
MS-DOS, and went on their way into history.

1982:
MS commenced development work on applications for Apple's GUI
project which was to founder as the Lisa (too costly) and succeed
as the Macintosh in 1984.

I.e. Microsoft cut its teeth on the Mac as far as apps are
concerned, long before it had much interest in them for the PC
platform.

1984:
The Mac was launched and aroused much interest but was still $1000
dearer than the IBM PC. It needed exclusive software to sell it,
just as Visicalc had done for the Apple II. It found this in Adobe
(ex Xerox personnel and an Apple shareholding) and started the
publishing revolution, not least via the birth of the laser printer
(the Xerox connection).

It was at about this time that MS started to get serious about
ruling the world, building on its OS licence foothold, and
ostensibly left Apple to go its own way as a DTP and imaging
specialist. Although Apple had not invented the GUI, it brought it
to maturity. I don't think there's much argument these days about
MS's appropriation of the GUI from Apple once it found wide
acceptance.

1990:
IBM eschewed the idea of an exclusive Windows deal with MS, and
effectively sealed its own fate in the PC market.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The split we have today is entirely due to the human impossibility
that two huge egos -- Steve Jobs and Bill Gates -- could ever
coexist. I use both platforms; I don't take sides, and I've had
plenty of reason to be bloody annoyed with the quirks of each. It's
mind boggling to think what could have been achieved by now through
open cooperation -- even amalgamation -- between the two camps.

Mike F
 
...But you forgot the Commodore 64 and the Amiga, which became the first consumer level video toaster.

Thanks for the (almost) full run down.

Stanton
Lets rewrite history!! I was under the impression that IBM brought
the computer to mainstream America...
Well, yes, and no. It perhaps depends on what you call mainstream.
IBM did not really conceive the PC. It owes its very beginnings in
the PC market, and most of its initial success, to BOTH Apple and
Microsoft (and the pioneers before them). Secondly, Apple and MS
have been in bed together a lot more than people realise today, and
each owes the other a helluva lot for its very existence today.

Here's a potted history for those too young to remember (or who
have chosen to forget). I offer it as a (hopefully welcome) change
from the flame war that's raging here:

1971:
Xerox set up the Palo Alto Research Centre as a pure think tank. By
1973(!!) its people had come up with the GUI, the mouse, the
WYSIWYG screen, Ethernet, and the foundations of object oriented
programming. But the personal computer hadn't yet been conceived
and Xerox's target platform was mainframe. Also, the head office
managers and bean counters (none of whom really knew much about the
PARC project), couldn't see the point as they were only interested
in copiers. And the whole GUI concept was eventually given to Apple
on a plate.

1975:
The original "personal computer" was invented by Ed Roberts who,
BTW, got out of the whole melée 3 or 4 years later and retrained as
a doctor. It was the Altair, and it was essentially a hobbyist's
machine.

Improved designs followed, by Apple, Radio Shack, Texas Instruments
and others.

During this era, the fledgling Microsoft did quite well, thank you,
flogging languages to everyone -- chiefly its derivation of BASIC
for this class of computer (by Bill Gates and Paul Allen). Its
interest in OSes only came much later, and apps later still.

1977:
The Apple II was launched, and was an immediate hit. But it
remained a geek-only machine until late 1979. Again, the success
was both MS's and Apple's -- MS had the language, Apple had a
nicely engineered box to run it on.

1979 - October:
Visicalc appeared, ex Harvard, at the hands of Dave Bricklin
(design) and Bob Frankston (code). It was the very first
"spreadsheet" (although the actual term was coined much later), and
it was designed to make use of the Apple II which had already been
selling like hot cakes. Visicalc caused an accounting revolution,
with statisticians and engineers also recognising its potential.

I'm not going to debate the meaning of "mainstream". But by the
start of the eighties the Apple II's success, given a huge boost by
Visicalc, had already turned personal computing into a $billion
industry. And that alone is what got IBM's attention. Its prime
interest was still in mainframes, but it couldn't help but notice
what was going on.

1980-81:
IBM wanted a package from MS containing BASIC and an OS (which it
wrongly assumed MS had in its arsenal). MS did some frantic running
around and ended up buying an OS from Seattle Computer Products for
$50k. That OS was QDOS, which was just a thinly disguised version
of CP/M, and it became in turn PC-DOS. MS sold the package to IBM
at a modest profit for a flat fee with no ties . Its master stroke
was in recognising that IBM's open architecture hardware would be
copied, and looked to the future in licensing the same OS to the
inevitable clone manufacturers, initially at $50 per PC.

CP/M, by the way, the first true OS for personal computing, was
designed by the late Gary Kildall who also founded Digital
Research. His vision was to benefit the world -- not to own or sell
licences to it -- and he did not patent CP/M. Here's a link for
those interested:

http://www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9775/9775b/9775b.htm

1981 - August:
The IBM Acorn was launched. It was successful because of IBM's
marketing clout, especially because it was able to use its
corporate image (from mainframes) as credentials for the new
consumer product. And because it also had Lotus 1-2-3 which removed
users' dependence on Visicalc.

The IBM PC used largely off-the-shelf electronics, the only chip it
actually owned being the BIOS. Compaq duly reverse engineered the
BIOS, a zillion others did likewise; Gates & Co. cheerfully
licensed their OS -- which they still owned -- to everyone as
MS-DOS, and went on their way into history.

1982:
MS commenced development work on applications for Apple's GUI
project which was to founder as the Lisa (too costly) and succeed
as the Macintosh in 1984.

I.e. Microsoft cut its teeth on the Mac as far as apps are
concerned, long before it had much interest in them for the PC
platform.

1984:
The Mac was launched and aroused much interest but was still $1000
dearer than the IBM PC. It needed exclusive software to sell it,
just as Visicalc had done for the Apple II. It found this in Adobe
(ex Xerox personnel and an Apple shareholding) and started the
publishing revolution, not least via the birth of the laser printer
(the Xerox connection).

It was at about this time that MS started to get serious about
ruling the world, building on its OS licence foothold, and
ostensibly left Apple to go its own way as a DTP and imaging
specialist. Although Apple had not invented the GUI, it brought it
to maturity. I don't think there's much argument these days about
MS's appropriation of the GUI from Apple once it found wide
acceptance.

1990:
IBM eschewed the idea of an exclusive Windows deal with MS, and
effectively sealed its own fate in the PC market.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The split we have today is entirely due to the human impossibility
that two huge egos -- Steve Jobs and Bill Gates -- could ever
coexist. I use both platforms; I don't take sides, and I've had
plenty of reason to be bloody annoyed with the quirks of each. It's
mind boggling to think what could have been achieved by now through
open cooperation -- even amalgamation -- between the two camps.

Mike F
 
Hi Stanton --

To be completely honest, you're right: I had in fact forgotten. But if this stream had crossed my mind I still probably would have left it alone rather than open another can of worms I've never been near myself.

A Google search on "history of Amiga" returned 396 results, no less, and with a few surprises. The biggest one was to find that it has been resurrected quite recently. The embarrassing one was that there are 9 authorised Australian dealers, including one only 2 km from me whose door I've actually been through more than once!

It could be that the Amiga following has been running deeper underground in Oz than in the US.
-----------------------------

We hadn't heard from you for a while ... beginning to wonder if the name on the box was Hal and it had finally devoured you :-)

Does this mean the Beast is finally tamed and usable?

Cheers,
Mike
Thanks for the (almost) full run down.

Stanton
Lets rewrite history!! I was under the impression that IBM brought
the computer to mainstream America...
Well, yes, and no. It perhaps depends on what you call mainstream.
IBM did not really conceive the PC. It owes its very beginnings in
.....
 
Hi Jon,

Your suggestion IS very appealing... lots of excellent graphic software is Mac Only.

BUT (this is hard to explain), I find the computer itself interesting... how a machine can be coded so as to "seem" to think, and the electronic details of buses and cards and chips. I want a machine that can do the Digital Graphics AND one that I poke around the insides of. Actually I always have an "experimental" computer to mess with, and a main computer that I keep my itchy hands (and mind) out of.

In many ways the various Macs are interesting, but the real problem is MY learning curve. You can see that it is full of "pieces and parts" things I've learned. Can I do the same approach to the New Macs? That approach is VERY important to me... I refuse to accept "magic black boxes" in my life!

Dont ever forget... the REAL computer has the brain and fingers, the small computer has the monitor and keyboard!
Bill Hansen
Jon J. Both (Edgeman)
The genius idea was to confer power to the people re computers, but...
Now Micro$oft plans to "rent" their software to us users, with
upgrades and bug-fixes for MORE "rent"!!
And, Apple sells "cool color" plastic boxes, that no longer have
Toolbox, Hypercard, SCSI... but with Power User (external device)
Cabling all over the place behind their desks.
Its a cautionary tale about how crappy Marketing can ruin a GoodThing.
Looks to me like we computer freedom lovers migrate to Linux!
Bill Hansen
Lets rewrite history!! I was under the impression that IBM brought
the computer to mainstream America...
Well, yes, and no. It perhaps depends on what you call mainstream.
IBM did not really conceive the PC. It owes its very beginnings in
the PC market, and most of its initial success, to BOTH Apple and
Microsoft (and the pioneers before them). Secondly, Apple and MS
have been in bed together a lot more than people realise today, and
each owes the other a helluva lot for its very existence today.

Here's a potted history for those too young to remember (or who
have chosen to forget). I offer it as a (hopefully welcome) change
from the flame war that's raging here:

1971:
Xerox set up the Palo Alto Research Centre as a pure think tank. By
1973(!!) its people had come up with the GUI, the mouse, the
WYSIWYG screen, Ethernet, and the foundations of object oriented
programming. But the personal computer hadn't yet been conceived
and Xerox's target platform was mainframe. Also, the head office
managers and bean counters (none of whom really knew much about the
PARC project), couldn't see the point as they were only interested
in copiers. And the whole GUI concept was eventually given to Apple
on a plate.

1975:
The original "personal computer" was invented by Ed Roberts who,
BTW, got out of the whole melée 3 or 4 years later and retrained as
a doctor. It was the Altair, and it was essentially a hobbyist's
machine.

Improved designs followed, by Apple, Radio Shack, Texas Instruments
and others.

During this era, the fledgling Microsoft did quite well, thank you,
flogging languages to everyone -- chiefly its derivation of BASIC
for this class of computer (by Bill Gates and Paul Allen). Its
interest in OSes only came much later, and apps later still.

1977:
The Apple II was launched, and was an immediate hit. But it
remained a geek-only machine until late 1979. Again, the success
was both MS's and Apple's -- MS had the language, Apple had a
nicely engineered box to run it on.

1979 - October:
Visicalc appeared, ex Harvard, at the hands of Dave Bricklin
(design) and Bob Frankston (code). It was the very first
"spreadsheet" (although the actual term was coined much later), and
it was designed to make use of the Apple II which had already been
selling like hot cakes. Visicalc caused an accounting revolution,
with statisticians and engineers also recognising its potential.

I'm not going to debate the meaning of "mainstream". But by the
start of the eighties the Apple II's success, given a huge boost by
Visicalc, had already turned personal computing into a $billion
industry. And that alone is what got IBM's attention. Its prime
interest was still in mainframes, but it couldn't help but notice
what was going on.

1980-81:
IBM wanted a package from MS containing BASIC and an OS (which it
wrongly assumed MS had in its arsenal). MS did some frantic running
around and ended up buying an OS from Seattle Computer Products for
$50k. That OS was QDOS, which was just a thinly disguised version
of CP/M, and it became in turn PC-DOS. MS sold the package to IBM
at a modest profit for a flat fee with no ties . Its master stroke
was in recognising that IBM's open architecture hardware would be
copied, and looked to the future in licensing the same OS to the
inevitable clone manufacturers, initially at $50 per PC.

CP/M, by the way, the first true OS for personal computing, was
designed by the late Gary Kildall who also founded Digital
Research. His vision was to benefit the world -- not to own or sell
licences to it -- and he did not patent CP/M. Here's a link for
those interested:

http://www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9775/9775b/9775b.htm

1981 - August:
The IBM Acorn was launched. It was successful because of IBM's
marketing clout, especially because it was able to use its
corporate image (from mainframes) as credentials for the new
consumer product. And because it also had Lotus 1-2-3 which removed
users' dependence on Visicalc.

The IBM PC used largely off-the-shelf electronics, the only chip it
actually owned being the BIOS. Compaq duly reverse engineered the
BIOS, a zillion others did likewise; Gates & Co. cheerfully
licensed their OS -- which they still owned -- to everyone as
MS-DOS, and went on their way into history.

1982:
MS commenced development work on applications for Apple's GUI
project which was to founder as the Lisa (too costly) and succeed
as the Macintosh in 1984.

I.e. Microsoft cut its teeth on the Mac as far as apps are
concerned, long before it had much interest in them for the PC
platform.

1984:
The Mac was launched and aroused much interest but was still $1000
dearer than the IBM PC. It needed exclusive software to sell it,
just as Visicalc had done for the Apple II. It found this in Adobe
(ex Xerox personnel and an Apple shareholding) and started the
publishing revolution, not least via the birth of the laser printer
(the Xerox connection).

It was at about this time that MS started to get serious about
ruling the world, building on its OS licence foothold, and
ostensibly left Apple to go its own way as a DTP and imaging
specialist. Although Apple had not invented the GUI, it brought it
to maturity. I don't think there's much argument these days about
MS's appropriation of the GUI from Apple once it found wide
acceptance.

1990:
IBM eschewed the idea of an exclusive Windows deal with MS, and
effectively sealed its own fate in the PC market.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The split we have today is entirely due to the human impossibility
that two huge egos -- Steve Jobs and Bill Gates -- could ever
coexist. I use both platforms; I don't take sides, and I've had
plenty of reason to be bloody annoyed with the quirks of each. It's
mind boggling to think what could have been achieved by now through
open cooperation -- even amalgamation -- between the two camps.

Mike F
 
Good point...to each their own....just strange it took you 10 days to respond to my response to you...mmm...so much for the human aspect!!or respect!! getting confused now!! (grin)...the only chips I like to mess with are the kind you eat...I'm going to rename them brain food now!! (another grin)

Have a nice life
Jon J. Both (Edgeman)
Jon J. Both (Edgeman)
The genius idea was to confer power to the people re computers, but...
Now Micro$oft plans to "rent" their software to us users, with
upgrades and bug-fixes for MORE "rent"!!
And, Apple sells "cool color" plastic boxes, that no longer have
Toolbox, Hypercard, SCSI... but with Power User (external device)
Cabling all over the place behind their desks.
Its a cautionary tale about how crappy Marketing can ruin a GoodThing.
Looks to me like we computer freedom lovers migrate to Linux!
Bill Hansen
Lets rewrite history!! I was under the impression that IBM brought
the computer to mainstream America...
Well, yes, and no. It perhaps depends on what you call mainstream.
IBM did not really conceive the PC. It owes its very beginnings in
the PC market, and most of its initial success, to BOTH Apple and
Microsoft (and the pioneers before them). Secondly, Apple and MS
have been in bed together a lot more than people realise today, and
each owes the other a helluva lot for its very existence today.

Here's a potted history for those too young to remember (or who
have chosen to forget). I offer it as a (hopefully welcome) change
from the flame war that's raging here:

1971:
Xerox set up the Palo Alto Research Centre as a pure think tank. By
1973(!!) its people had come up with the GUI, the mouse, the
WYSIWYG screen, Ethernet, and the foundations of object oriented
programming. But the personal computer hadn't yet been conceived
and Xerox's target platform was mainframe. Also, the head office
managers and bean counters (none of whom really knew much about the
PARC project), couldn't see the point as they were only interested
in copiers. And the whole GUI concept was eventually given to Apple
on a plate.

1975:
The original "personal computer" was invented by Ed Roberts who,
BTW, got out of the whole melée 3 or 4 years later and retrained as
a doctor. It was the Altair, and it was essentially a hobbyist's
machine.

Improved designs followed, by Apple, Radio Shack, Texas Instruments
and others.

During this era, the fledgling Microsoft did quite well, thank you,
flogging languages to everyone -- chiefly its derivation of BASIC
for this class of computer (by Bill Gates and Paul Allen). Its
interest in OSes only came much later, and apps later still.

1977:
The Apple II was launched, and was an immediate hit. But it
remained a geek-only machine until late 1979. Again, the success
was both MS's and Apple's -- MS had the language, Apple had a
nicely engineered box to run it on.

1979 - October:
Visicalc appeared, ex Harvard, at the hands of Dave Bricklin
(design) and Bob Frankston (code). It was the very first
"spreadsheet" (although the actual term was coined much later), and
it was designed to make use of the Apple II which had already been
selling like hot cakes. Visicalc caused an accounting revolution,
with statisticians and engineers also recognising its potential.

I'm not going to debate the meaning of "mainstream". But by the
start of the eighties the Apple II's success, given a huge boost by
Visicalc, had already turned personal computing into a $billion
industry. And that alone is what got IBM's attention. Its prime
interest was still in mainframes, but it couldn't help but notice
what was going on.

1980-81:
IBM wanted a package from MS containing BASIC and an OS (which it
wrongly assumed MS had in its arsenal). MS did some frantic running
around and ended up buying an OS from Seattle Computer Products for
$50k. That OS was QDOS, which was just a thinly disguised version
of CP/M, and it became in turn PC-DOS. MS sold the package to IBM
at a modest profit for a flat fee with no ties . Its master stroke
was in recognising that IBM's open architecture hardware would be
copied, and looked to the future in licensing the same OS to the
inevitable clone manufacturers, initially at $50 per PC.

CP/M, by the way, the first true OS for personal computing, was
designed by the late Gary Kildall who also founded Digital
Research. His vision was to benefit the world -- not to own or sell
licences to it -- and he did not patent CP/M. Here's a link for
those interested:

http://www.ddj.com/articles/1997/9775/9775b/9775b.htm

1981 - August:
The IBM Acorn was launched. It was successful because of IBM's
marketing clout, especially because it was able to use its
corporate image (from mainframes) as credentials for the new
consumer product. And because it also had Lotus 1-2-3 which removed
users' dependence on Visicalc.

The IBM PC used largely off-the-shelf electronics, the only chip it
actually owned being the BIOS. Compaq duly reverse engineered the
BIOS, a zillion others did likewise; Gates & Co. cheerfully
licensed their OS -- which they still owned -- to everyone as
MS-DOS, and went on their way into history.

1982:
MS commenced development work on applications for Apple's GUI
project which was to founder as the Lisa (too costly) and succeed
as the Macintosh in 1984.

I.e. Microsoft cut its teeth on the Mac as far as apps are
concerned, long before it had much interest in them for the PC
platform.

1984:
The Mac was launched and aroused much interest but was still $1000
dearer than the IBM PC. It needed exclusive software to sell it,
just as Visicalc had done for the Apple II. It found this in Adobe
(ex Xerox personnel and an Apple shareholding) and started the
publishing revolution, not least via the birth of the laser printer
(the Xerox connection).

It was at about this time that MS started to get serious about
ruling the world, building on its OS licence foothold, and
ostensibly left Apple to go its own way as a DTP and imaging
specialist. Although Apple had not invented the GUI, it brought it
to maturity. I don't think there's much argument these days about
MS's appropriation of the GUI from Apple once it found wide
acceptance.

1990:
IBM eschewed the idea of an exclusive Windows deal with MS, and
effectively sealed its own fate in the PC market.
------------------------------------------------------------------
The split we have today is entirely due to the human impossibility
that two huge egos -- Steve Jobs and Bill Gates -- could ever
coexist. I use both platforms; I don't take sides, and I've had
plenty of reason to be bloody annoyed with the quirks of each. It's
mind boggling to think what could have been achieved by now through
open cooperation -- even amalgamation -- between the two camps.

Mike F
 
I know MAC simplicity was supposed to Save The World! What better way to be a slave race than to learn nothing, do nothing and leave it to someone else.

The best way to OWN a computer is to Take OWNership. No technicians. They will never tell you anything for an education because they are in Pit Stop mode all day. Thats all they do. In/Out. How many units can I do in a day? No wonder there are mistakes.

Read Max. PC. Learn everything about the machine at least once. It takes time. Eventually never take your PC to a technician again. DIY.

Once you know the lay of the land the PC is one of the most intuitive machine processes ever designed.

However, some people will never know much about computers just like some will never know how to use an advanced camera in manual mode.
(el)
This is a follow-up episode of an ongoing saga of long time Mac
user attempting to get indocrinated into the sacred world of the
PC. This has been a sadistic sort of fun as well as quite
educational.

After my last thread, I was thoroghly (and probably correctly)
chided by forum members for letting the computer company put cheap
parts into my box. My logic was to build a "value" box. It was an
experiment...that failed miserably. The value turned into absolute
hell the moment I tried to load new system software. FOUR DAYS
later, I still did not have system software on the f& %#$g PC! Ron
Reznick can attest to my lack of exaggeration. I tried every
freaking idea we could think of, including putting in both new hard
and CD-ROM drives. On Sunday night, the contest was "called on
account of darkness". Machine-1, Stanton-O.


Monday morning, a very determined photographer called up the
computer company. They acted as if they had never taken back bad
parts before. They gave me this 15% restocking BS, to which I
replied; they were taking those cheap s^#t parts back (actually,
the only cheap part was the Amptron all-in-one motherboard and cpu
cooling fan. and replacing them with quality products and no, I
wasn't paying any restocking fees! After all the time and
exasperation I was ready to accept the conclusions of the first
part of my experiment and spend some more money to go to upgraded
parts, as long as the opportunity presented itself.

We replaced the processor and motherboard with a 1.1gig AMD
Thunderbird processor (upgraded from the 900), an ASUS A7V133
motherboard. In addition I added a Fujitsu 20 gig ATA100 drive,
Sony 52xCD-ROM and an (older SCSI) HP CD-R (W?), a Soundblaster
Live Value card and 512mb of RAM. No one can accuse me of having a
"crippled" machine now .

So, I leave the computer store thinking my problems are over.
Right? WRONG!!! I get home and attempt to to load system software
again. NO HARD DRIVE RECOGNIZED!!! I won't waste the bandwidth
going over the gory AND LONG details. It was not fun. At 10:30 that
night, my friend Bob was kind enough to let me come over to figure
out the problem. Somehow, together we (he) figured out how to get
the system up and running.

If you're wondering what was wrong, the PROFESSIONAL technician
plugged the drive into the ATA/100 Promise/Raid controller without
setting the jumper properly or setting the bios properly. Imagine
this newbie (I don't even rank amateur status on PC's yet) trying
to figure out what was wrong. So, the computer went into a search
loop, not finding anything. When I reached ASUS tech support this
morning the explained the problem and answer. This so-called
PROFESSIONAL technican's small mistake caused another several hours
of grief and misery. You'd have thought he'd be more careful
checking his setup before sending a computer home with a customer.
I finally left my friend's house at 3am- but the computer was
actually working and actually had system software on it.

For the most part, the application software installation went well,
with the exception of my extreme fatigue caused me to leave some
update disks at home that I had downloaded. For the most part,
installing general software was very similar to Mac installations,
with the exception of drive naming conventions.

Now I can see that the PC has made some significant strides in
trying to provide a plug-and-play environment. But it wasn't so
plug-and-play when I tried to set up my HP LaserJet6mp printer
which is on our ethernet hub. Though ideally, I would like my PC to
interact with out Mac network, right now I'll settle for just
getting the printer to print over ethernet. I expected the Mac/PC
interaction to be a bit more complicated, requiring additional
software, but I didn't expect setting up the printer to be such a
chore. At this moment, I cannot print with it. My only savior is
that I would be able to print from my Epson 1280 via USB if needed.

Partial Conclusion: I admit that the first scenario with the old
parts made my frustration level a bit raw, but I can be rational
about it in my personal evaluation. I can see the "flexibility" in
the PC that some of you speak of, but it comes at the expense of
ease of use, or at the very least, ease of setup. The PC is very
complicated and not terribly intuitive. Errors are communicated in
"Technese", which I found sometimes difficult to understand.
Though I am not intimidated by it, looking at the bios settings
made my head hurt. You HAVE to know what you're doing if you're
messing with the bios. This is all stuff that is foreign to a Mac
user. As I said, one could make a case for the flexibility of the
PC, but IMHO, much of that flexibility for the average user is
overkill.

One last observation- It felt very odd to be working with an OS
that felt like a separate entity from the hardware. I never worked
with an OS before that actually felt like IT was a a money making
entity. Macs just come with the software. No license keys, and/or
updates that won't work with some "limited" license of operating
software. Working with Macs seems so much more integrated and
cohesive in feel and operation. I admit that years of working with
Macs may have biased me slightly. I truly AM keeping an open mind
about this and will call it as I see it.But honestly, if I were
this same new user on a Mac, I wouldn't have had to fight so hard
to get up and running as have this week with my first PC.

Hopefully, my hellish stories are over and I can quitely join the
ranks of happy PC users. I hope to get my printer on line soon and
even learn to operate a mixed Mac/PC network. Stay tuned....

Again, I want to thank my friend Ron Reznick who helped save my
sanity, and for the great amount of time he unselfishly donated. I
owe him lunch (and a whole bunch more). I wish I knew half of
what he knows. Thanks Ron.

Sincerely,
Stanton
 
Hi All,

I agree with you (el), but the PC is evolving so fast that we "fiddlers" will forever be relegated to "technician" status... in the PitStop as you said very well.

Some of us WANT to understand the MAC as well as the PC... and that is VERY difficult. The UI of the MAC is very simple and intuitive, but how it is developed internally is NOT very simple... but it is interesting... and knowable, just not easily.
My experiences with Mac users is that most of them do not WANT to find out > how

So why not get to KNOW the computer that allows them to Pshop their pictures so very nicely? They are ONLY machines after all... If Apple Corps. engineers and technicians can understand it, why cannot I understand it? Actually...even if I never "get the MAC"... I really > OBJECT
The best way to OWN a computer is to Take OWNership. No
technicians. They will never tell you anything for an education
because they are in Pit Stop mode all day. Thats all they do.
In/Out. How many units can I do in a day? No wonder there are
mistakes.

Read Max. PC. Learn everything about the machine at least once. It
takes time. Eventually never take your PC to a technician again.
DIY.
Once you know the lay of the land the PC is one of the most
intuitive machine processes ever designed.

However, some people will never know much about computers just like
some will never know how to use an advanced camera in manual mode.
(el)
This is a follow-up episode of an ongoing saga of long time Mac
user attempting to get indocrinated into the sacred world of the
PC. This has been a sadistic sort of fun as well as quite
educational.

After my last thread, I was thoroghly (and probably correctly)
chided by forum members for letting the computer company put cheap
parts into my box. My logic was to build a "value" box. It was an
experiment...that failed miserably. The value turned into absolute
hell the moment I tried to load new system software. FOUR DAYS
later, I still did not have system software on the f& %#$g PC! Ron
Reznick can attest to my lack of exaggeration. I tried every
freaking idea we could think of, including putting in both new hard
and CD-ROM drives. On Sunday night, the contest was "called on
account of darkness". Machine-1, Stanton-O.


Monday morning, a very determined photographer called up the
computer company. They acted as if they had never taken back bad
parts before. They gave me this 15% restocking BS, to which I
replied; they were taking those cheap s^#t parts back (actually,
the only cheap part was the Amptron all-in-one motherboard and cpu
cooling fan. and replacing them with quality products and no, I
wasn't paying any restocking fees! After all the time and
exasperation I was ready to accept the conclusions of the first
part of my experiment and spend some more money to go to upgraded
parts, as long as the opportunity presented itself.

We replaced the processor and motherboard with a 1.1gig AMD
Thunderbird processor (upgraded from the 900), an ASUS A7V133
motherboard. In addition I added a Fujitsu 20 gig ATA100 drive,
Sony 52xCD-ROM and an (older SCSI) HP CD-R (W?), a Soundblaster
Live Value card and 512mb of RAM. No one can accuse me of having a
"crippled" machine now .

So, I leave the computer store thinking my problems are over.
Right? WRONG!!! I get home and attempt to to load system software
again. NO HARD DRIVE RECOGNIZED!!! I won't waste the bandwidth
going over the gory AND LONG details. It was not fun. At 10:30 that
night, my friend Bob was kind enough to let me come over to figure
out the problem. Somehow, together we (he) figured out how to get
the system up and running.

If you're wondering what was wrong, the PROFESSIONAL technician
plugged the drive into the ATA/100 Promise/Raid controller without
setting the jumper properly or setting the bios properly. Imagine
this newbie (I don't even rank amateur status on PC's yet) trying
to figure out what was wrong. So, the computer went into a search
loop, not finding anything. When I reached ASUS tech support this
morning the explained the problem and answer. This so-called
PROFESSIONAL technican's small mistake caused another several hours
of grief and misery. You'd have thought he'd be more careful
checking his setup before sending a computer home with a customer.
I finally left my friend's house at 3am- but the computer was
actually working and actually had system software on it.

For the most part, the application software installation went well,
with the exception of my extreme fatigue caused me to leave some
update disks at home that I had downloaded. For the most part,
installing general software was very similar to Mac installations,
with the exception of drive naming conventions.

Now I can see that the PC has made some significant strides in
trying to provide a plug-and-play environment. But it wasn't so
plug-and-play when I tried to set up my HP LaserJet6mp printer
which is on our ethernet hub. Though ideally, I would like my PC to
interact with out Mac network, right now I'll settle for just
getting the printer to print over ethernet. I expected the Mac/PC
interaction to be a bit more complicated, requiring additional
software, but I didn't expect setting up the printer to be such a
chore. At this moment, I cannot print with it. My only savior is
that I would be able to print from my Epson 1280 via USB if needed.

Partial Conclusion: I admit that the first scenario with the old
parts made my frustration level a bit raw, but I can be rational
about it in my personal evaluation. I can see the "flexibility" in
the PC that some of you speak of, but it comes at the expense of
ease of use, or at the very least, ease of setup. The PC is very
complicated and not terribly intuitive. Errors are communicated in
"Technese", which I found sometimes difficult to understand.
Though I am not intimidated by it, looking at the bios settings
made my head hurt. You HAVE to know what you're doing if you're
messing with the bios. This is all stuff that is foreign to a Mac
user. As I said, one could make a case for the flexibility of the
PC, but IMHO, much of that flexibility for the average user is
overkill.

One last observation- It felt very odd to be working with an OS
that felt like a separate entity from the hardware. I never worked
with an OS before that actually felt like IT was a a money making
entity. Macs just come with the software. No license keys, and/or
updates that won't work with some "limited" license of operating
software. Working with Macs seems so much more integrated and
cohesive in feel and operation. I admit that years of working with
Macs may have biased me slightly. I truly AM keeping an open mind
about this and will call it as I see it.But honestly, if I were
this same new user on a Mac, I wouldn't have had to fight so hard
to get up and running as have this week with my first PC.

Hopefully, my hellish stories are over and I can quitely join the
ranks of happy PC users. I hope to get my printer on line soon and
even learn to operate a mixed Mac/PC network. Stay tuned....

Again, I want to thank my friend Ron Reznick who helped save my
sanity, and for the great amount of time he unselfishly donated. I
owe him lunch (and a whole bunch more). I wish I knew half of
what he knows. Thanks Ron.

Sincerely,
Stanton
 

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