By now you've seen plenty of information about Panasonic's new S-series cameras, but after shooting with them at Panasonic's launch event in Barcelona, Chris and Jordan tell us about some important things you might have overlooked from the spec sheet.
Hello Chris and Jordan From the previews shown till now, both cameras and Panasonic lenses look nice and promising. What I would like to see/hear tested, is the following: 2 set-ups, one for S1 and Leica SL lenses and one for S1R and Leica SL lenses. The reason for this is simple, it was promised that those 2 new cameras will be compatible with Leica SL lenses, thus, that's the moment of truth, are they? Can I suggest the short, medium and long zooms? Thank you.
I know this is still preproduction, but holy cow the cathedral interior photos are noisy and smeared at ISO6400. They're not selling the low-light benefits of full frame.
I would be more concern with all the reviews, youtube videos and sample photos of how crap these new lenses are specifically the Panasonic LUMIX S 24-105mm F4 Lens. $1300 for this seems strange.
I noticed a fairly poor overall level of noise as well in my files. Let's hope some magic comes out of the firmware when this camera reaches final. We are at .7 so far so let's see what happens.
@ 7:07 of the video, if you look at the lamp behind Chris the AF keeps hunting in and out, which proves that its "improved" contrast-detect AF is inferior to PDAF.
I have a SL and some L lenses. Love the SL, but occasionally I need more res (cropping) or image stabilization. The L 24-90 and L 90-280 lenses are OIS. Will the S1R be able to use the OIS on those lenses PLUS the internal stabilization, or will the in-body AND OIS only work with Panasonic's lenses? Thanks
In the m43 world with Olympus lenses and Panasonic body this is not possible. But Panasonic said this L-mount alliance is a closer partnership than the m43 so it might.
I have the Leica as well, my main interest is if the Leica zooms will be just as slow to focus on the S1R as it is to focus on the SL? I was impressed with the Q’s autofocus so I ordered the SL without trying it, unfortunately it’s autofocus was less than stellar. Hoping Panasonic’s is much better but not holding my breath.
Way to go Chris and Jordan. Can we have more infoviews like this one please? Showing us exactly have things work on the camera, especially novelty or latest tech stuff is a real boon. You see when you talk about such stuff in a text based review, it is usually quite hard to visualise what you're talking about. But doing an infoview like this on features and implementations that don't appear on spec sheets is really useful for people to see how the way they normally shoot will be impacted or show people what is now possible and how it works in practice. This style of infoview tells me stuff I wouldn't really get to find out about or understand that well without a visual reference as to what is going on and give me a much better idea about the product in question. I almost felt like I wanted to go out and purchase the S1 right away - but can it AF as fast and accurately as the Sony A9? Really great effort here - let's have more like this.
Glad you enjoyed it! We'll probably keeping using this format on the day of major camera announcements, when we don't have time to produce a normal episode.
If resolution is your main concern then you are correct. However, these a significant difference in dynamic range of a FF sensor compared to m4/3. Each photographers needs are different. Choice is a good thing.
so lets get this straight......the canon R has a terrible video crop factor at 1.7 aprently it suks ..... its on record of chris and jordan saying so ....many times ..but apparently the 1.5 or 2x crop on the Panny seams a good thing and is described as and i quote "your best friend" ....and some still say this site dont bash Canon
Canon's 1.7x crop is the only crop you get. Panasonic can have 1.1x (near full sensor read), 1.5x (APSC) and 2x (m4/3). These crops give you predictable ways that the lenses will behave at those crops. With a 1.7x crop, the field of view of your wide angle lens wont be wide angle anymore...plus you don't have any other choice over the matter and you need to get a calculator out to calculate the FOV of your lenses (at least until you become familiar with how the lenses behave at 1.7x) This has nothing to do with Canon bashing. You're just misinterpreting and misrepresenting what DPReview have said to suit your own agenda.
i don't have an agenda i have canon ,nikon and sony cameras ....there is no misinterpreting and misrepresenting what DPReview have said (and others ) thier is plenty of video evidence where it has clearly been said that the canon 1.7 crop is very undesirable has there not???? however in this video they clearly say that the FF video is not very good and they list it as i good point that you can have the 1.5 and 2X crop .and i quote "your best friend"(referring to the crop) ..bearing in mind that the widest lens for the panny is 24mm so an equiv FL of 36mm at 1.5 crop and this cam is being marketed as video orientated camera ..but the canon with AF-s lenses can have an equiv FL of 17mm ..and less than 13mm with 3ed party lenses ... but that bit was left out of this vid...oh and that it has the worst type of AF for video
He's not used it. He's based his video on other sites and reviewers using pre production cameras. He hasn't even used one of those.
I think he makes some valid points anyway such as the super high res mode being unusable in reality but as he points out, so it is with all other makes except in product/still life work.
His comments on CDAF hunting focus ruining video seem intuitively correct especially based on his experience with GH5 video AF but until we see the actual production cameras we do not know the truth.
He's also got a point about the lenses prices (the 50mm F1.4 price is insane) but you's hope Sigma would come to the rescue there, though again he's right to say as of today lenses are scarce and costly.
He concludes by suggesting Panasonic rushed these to market to get a slice of the pie. This is probably true but that is also true of his video.
How could he be any more used to it than anyone else? Obviously you don't realize that this camera is just being introduced, and the tester was using a pre-production model. He was just handed the camera to test, at the same time as everyone else. The Northrups are amongst the most reputable of reviewers, and they are never afraid to describe their findings, whatever they are. How refreshing is that, compared to some hustlers who seem to be more interested in making a big show, as opposed to uncovering the real truth?
I don't find the Northrups particularly reputable. They have their own hobby horses (anything Sony, Eye Auto Focus) which they like to ride. They pretend to know the ins and outs of long telephoto shooting but their birding shots with the Nikon Z7 showed only their own incompetence in the genre. A real Nikon and birding guy brought home consistently amazing photos with the same setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNAziALpnXc
Tony is vaguely entertaining in a silver fox kind of way, as long as you don't take what he says too seriously. Chelsea is mainly annoying. Reputable, not so much. I'm not sure how much one can learn about photography from the pair. Their teaching on how to self-market would have more to offer.
@UncoyDP I have followed Mark Smith for a long time now. The video you linked contradicts your claim. He points out how the D850 and the D500 are more consistent performers that he would prefer if he wants the "money shot". The only consistent thing about the Z7 is the amount of unsharp pictures in a burst before the AF locks on.
If you watch his newer videos he also says how the A9 completely blows away all those cameras in terms of AF performance. He even goes as far and says many of his A9 shots would have been impossible with the Nikon bodies.
Just a quick heads-up because you make Mark Smith look like a Nikon-biased photographer by pretending his videos have conclusions they don’t. In reality he is the opposite of trash channels like the Angry Photographer and very unbiased.
Mark Smith is the opposite of trash channels which is why I linked to him. His video indicates that the Z7 is a very capable birding camera. He prefers the DSLRs as he has to work to pay for his equipment and less expensive equipment which performs better is desirable. I totally agree with him. Mirrorless (have both a Fuji X-T20 and a Sony A6300 in the house) is best reserved as a carry camera or to shoot video.
If you have serious work to do, bring out the 5DS R or the D850 and enjoy the (relatively) affordable classic lens pool that both Canon and Nikon offer (example EF 300mm f4 is just €550 in near mint condition or the EF 70-200mm f2.8 L IS II at about €1200 in similar condition: for the first, there's no Sony equivalent and for the second, it's €2000 from dodgy sellers - the Canon marketplace slightly less excellent but still viable professional alternatives down to €400).
Interesting that Mark Smith likes the A9. I'll check out what he has to say in detail.
@UncoyDP "His video indicates that the Z7 is a very capable birding camera." - No, it indicates that it can work out okay depending on the subject. The bottom line is that the Z7 is not bad, but worse than other options.
"Mirrorless ... is best reserved as a carry camera or to shoot video." - The Sony A9 is a mirrorless camera. And he says it works better for him than those DSLRs. Not as a backup but as a primary if speed and critical/difficult focus has to be achieved.
"and for the second, it's €2000 from dodgy sellers" - The Canons are used for several years while the 2000€ gets you a brand new lens. In reality, there is a decent used market for Sony lenses, at least here in Europe and it's not much more expensive. Also consider that the DSLR lenses will lose quite a bit of value because of new mounts. Sony lenses are the current option for Sony bodies and are there to stay in terms of demand.
Your nickname is StopTheGAS but you are here flogging hard the A9 and the overpriced Sony E lens system. Here's a good tip: whatever you own now is probably overkill for the photos you will shoot in the next ten years of your life.
Mark Smith doesn't need an A9 or Sony lenses to shoot amazing bird and BIF photos. He can even do it on a Z6 or Z7, even if a D850 would be better. It seems the Northrups need eye focus to hit focus accurately. I don't and neither have generations of photographers before us. Those two are like people who can buy & use a lawn mower and now call themselves gardeners.
In the meantime, I'm snapping up great Canon EF lenses and enjoying them on high megapixel, high ISO and fast focusing Canon DSLR bodies, Sony APS-C video machines and Fuji X retro hybrid photo/video cameras. Eventually Canon will make a good mirrorless camera (perhaps in two or three years). I have no shortage of cameras or lenses between now and then and no "switcher" costs, just great glass.
10 not so cool things you may have missed about the Panasonic S1 and S1R -Contrast detect AF Only (bad tracking) -CDAF causing pulsing bokeh in video (useless) -Only pricey and slow lenses -4k60 in S1 is 1,5xcrop -4k60 in S1R is using line skipping method and 15mins record limit -You have to pay for 10bit V-Log as extra feature -180fps 1080p is 1,5xcrop with no AF and Audio -heavier than top dslr-s (900g and 1000g) -Battery time is not good -Very limited lens selection +1: -More expensive than any other competition
good list. for me 4k/60 crop is a big no and ill wait for another camera. but looking at the gallery samples, the images are not impressive whatsoever. really horrible and mushy.
otoh, im certain the battery will have AMAZING battery life. dont look at the cipa rating. nikons cipa rating and sonys cipa rating is low but IRL its actually almost triple the amount.
nikons enel18 gives around 2500+ clicks and its 2800mah
the panasonic is 3100mah. but we dont know how efficient it is. though im 1000% certain it will do at least 2000clicks.
and yes, the prices are too high. everyone is settled with their brands. I believe when you have a new system (which is pretty much beta) y you try to make it tempting to get people to move over to it. and you really want to do it very fast.
dont worry about the cipa rating. it doesnt mean anything. ill bet you $10 the battery life in real life goes to AT LEAST 2000 clicks. the battery is even significantly larger then the nikon (which does 2500+clicks. I use the enel18 battery and get at least 2500 clicks. the panasonic battery will get at least 2000 clicks. wait and see.
sony isnt exactly one to show off about battery life. they dont even include a charger for it. which is pathetic.
im not against you but dont come flexing sony muscle like it has some great benchmarks. the nikon en-el15b batery gets almost 2000clicks and the z battery is not even close. they have a LONG way to go before they can show off about numbers.
The thing about these cameras is, they're "huge" because they're not just chasing the /photo/ capabilities of a Canon/Nikon/Sony FF MILC; they're huge because they're actually chasing the video capabilities of much larger setups like the Canon Cinema EOS system, or bigger. I wouldn't be surprised if future cameras in this system could shoot RAW video, if not internally then maybe at least to an Atmos, since thanks to Nikon we now know it's possible.
I'd love to take the S1R out for a spin for landscape photography, and I'd love to try the S1 for wedding and action sports photography, but really, the future is indeed with hybrid habits and final results. Otherwise, for the price (and weight) these cameras are absolutely overkill. Sweet, sexy overkill, maybe, but overkill nonetheless.
Thanks for the correction Richard. It's the lag and the inaccuracy of manual focus by wire that I don't like. How well are these issues controlled with the panasonic lenses.
HB1969 Don’t expect great feedback just because of the clutch. It it mainly does 3 things: - It provides a bigger, easier to access switch compared to the more common side switch. - You get hard stops on both focus ends resulting in less unnecessary turning you have on "infinite" focus rings. - It memorizes the last set focus distance. This can be a disadvantage as well if you are used to lock the AF by flipping the MF switch. Because now it will change the focus when you do that.
The actual response and latency could be all over the place. Also, Sony already did the exact same thing with their 90mm Macro lens. It works okay.
C & J. Thanks for your initial insights. Can you truly grab the super high res shots handheld? Down to what shutter speed? Thank you both. Respect, Mark
I'd honestly stick to tripod use. Otherwise I feel any benefit will be lost. The Olympus E-M1X is perfectly capable handheld but the S1 would be pushing it.
Chris--thank you for the courtesy of a reply. Your point is noted and I can appreciate the reason--we need discipline when taking any shot with any camera let alone 4 x's 47 megapixels. I, like many of the folks that enjoy the reasonableness to be found in J & C comments, are looking forward to your experiences with the AF performance. Lens and Camera set-ups seem beast heavy--so deep field carry, for me at least, seems unlikely. More will be revealed.
As far as I know, the only ones that do are certain Panasonic micro four thirds cameras like the G85, the GH4, the GH5, and the GH5s. And also the Canon 1DC.
It seems that the law that imposed additional taxes on cameras with recording time longer than 29:59 is not in effect anymore so every new camera can have "unlimited" video recording time. Case in point - Sony a6400.
"Probably not those older cameras which tend to overheat, like the A6300?"
That was fixed in firmware updates. I got 47 min of 4K out of mine without an issue. I have the unlimited time hack on mine, but never really needed to go longer than that 47 min at once. The temps should have stabilized long before then, as well.
The A6500 actually came with a feature that was later added to the A6300 in FW: Auto Power Off Temp. It allowed you to raise the shutoff temp for overheating. I believe all Sonys after the A6500 came with this, as well. The A6500 didn't suffer from the same issue at launch that the A6300 did: an incorrect temp sensor reading that would shut the camera down prematurely, before any kind of overheating occurred.
Now one thing is clear, market/manufacturers are not going for smaller bodies/lenses. Mirror-less has advantage but not in size anymore. So if you have DSLR dont sweat on size...despite all predictions i dont see apsc format going obsolete..
People forget that the Pro SLR size got that way for a reason. They started out as little flat gripless bricks and slowly evolved into what they are today - which is ergonomic marvels in most cases.
Wrong. Mirrorless CAN offer a size advantage. However, mirrorless system makers get to choose what they want to put in the camera body, or what aperture and corner sharpness they want to give a particular lens, ...all of which are factors in the final size of the system. Not to mention the actual robustness of the gear itself.
Which is why an original Sony A7 seems tiny and feather-light versus this Panasonic beast. The old Sony body has no IBIS, and would overheat immediately if tasked with matching the S1's video output.
Yet the old Sonys still make decent cameras. Pair them with one of the super-compact Rokinon f/2.8 primes, and you've got a dinky little setup yet still a full-frame sensor.
Panasonic has chosen to use the "mirrorless size advantage" to instead cram in some serious professional video features that actually pit the camera against even bigger systems such as the Canon Cinema EOS bodies. (Also mirrorless, mind you. Which just goes to show, it's all about features.)
most notable cameras in nikon and canon were Nikon F and Canon F series. they both considered workhorse cameras...
The grip started with T90 and from Nikon F4 onwards... Later both systems adapted vertical grips. so it is kind of evolution the grip design came to modern dslrs...
Canon I’ve left out based on value for money and innovation. Canon’s full frame mirrorless option is overpriced for the features it offers in my opinion.
Olympus is okay but $3000 for a Micro Four-Thirds sensor is an incredibly hard sell.
I like the tactic Sony, Nikon and Panasonic has taken. Ridiculously well specd $2000 camera with a high resolution equivalent for $3000.
It does. But who shoots slownotion takes longer than 30 minutes though? (Which actually translates to a final conformed 1 hour video). In real time (30p) you can record indefinitely as long as you have a power brick and hot swap 128-264gig cards.
First of all, these guys have the talent to make a presentation by all means. More than that they offer quite informative staff with simplicity, clearness and comments right in the point. That means that they have done their homework thoroughly and extensively and you feel it, mainly because they don't use any kind of rhetoric for any reason. They also manage their expressed critics to be detached from the object they present or evaluate thus giving an excellent result by all means. Great work guys, keep it up, you are the best in your field and there only two (much older than you) guys who really have your quality of telling things for photography and videography gear and generally in photography. Second, these new Panas seem to be the new king of the pack.
Completely agree. Not a homerun, but a grand slam. If you want to shoot video and also want a great still camera, there is nothing that can complete with this.
Cue the comments that real pros don't care about size, weight or cost. But these look like you're getting a lot for the money and all that capability just takes a lot of space and costs money.
How do you know? I think that actually they care a lot. There hasn’t been any real choices in the past though. There is no business area in the world where expenses doesn’t matter
Fantastic information! I would have missed all these key features if I just read the specs. When you do your field testing could you please comment on low light photography? Great job guys!
Yeah, I like the concept of this video. But I would have preferred 5 photo things then 5 video things, like many of your other videos. Just a little jarring to go back and forth so much. OTOH, it's nice to have both of you interacting with each other on both topics.
Oh wow! You're in my Barcelona!!! :) hope you're having a nice stay! You're gonna miss a ultra wide angle lens for the streets in the gothic quarter and the raval!!
Guys, why this news is hidden? Major announcement and I need to scroll down to see anything has happened, because top news is about interview with olympus.
7 of the top 8 stories on the home page are currently about these and other Panasonic products. 3 hours ago it would have been 7/7. These cameras were announced a while back, but only this morning were the full specs revealed.
The image stabilizer monitor is not a new idea. My old Sony A100 had a similar idea in that it had a little sliding scale graph type display in the corner of the viewfinder.
The shakier you were the more steps on the scale came up. I always paid attention to it and tried to minimise it so it's nice to see a return of the concept.
Sony dropped it from later cameras which was a pity.
The A100 had only a IBIS, but there are no stabilized lenses. So there was no visiual feedback, about how good the stabilization was. With the help of the scale, you could guess, how much the camera had to counter act. With introduction of the EVF, there was not really necessary to have that sort of feedback. But I like, what Panasonic did. It's like the balance board of the Wii.
It has the rudiments of what the Panasonic does, but the Panny does it in a way that allows you to try to compensate for your own motion, if this is possible. It sounds that from what Chris and Jordan describe and show, the Panasonic implementation does allow you to try to keep the dot on target which can help a lot.
Makes a lot of sense to me, and obvious in hindsight, because the Panasonic shows you which direction you need to return to and by how much. The Sony only tells you that you're being shaky.
Hang on you two, I was merely pointing out that an ancient camera gave some visual feedback as to how much you were shaking the camera.
You also were not guessing anything, you were simply trying to light as few bars on the scale as possible. A very intuitive idea.
As to Panasonic's being better I should hope so but that said, whether there is any real value in trying to keep a dot on a target as opposed to just trying to light fewer bars on a scale is an interesting question. Panasonic's idea sounds more distracting and may have you concentrating on that rather than the photo. I never found the bars distracting and only referred to them when I felt it necessary but they were on all the time Super Steady Shot was on.
I presume with the Panasonic you have to make choice to have this mode on a bit like having an spirit level /horizon line on. Sounds more intrusive to me so maybe sometimes simpler is better.
Great job, guys! You really nailed it with summarizing stuff that we haven't heard before in any of those pre-announcements or on all those rumour sites.
Clearly, hiring you guys and letting you do your video format (which was great even before your dpreview times) was the smartest thing that dpreview ever did.
Well thats thrown a spanner in my works... I was just about to go sony but think im going to hold off a little while, specs look impressive now to wait to see if it performs, and is there a Pro lens road map ?
One thing I would definitely like to be covered is how the AF works with non-Panasonic lenses (Leica at this point, Sigma later). Traditionally DfD only works with their own lenses, and if the cameras revert to standard contrast AF... Well, I would like to know.
Yeah, me too. For many people the Panasonic lenses are either slow at f/4 or too expensive for the 50mm f/1.4. Sigma looks like very nice alternative to that but what will be the performance, mainly for video AF tracking?
Obviously DFD requires additional lens data that is not available through the m43 mount and needs to be stored in camera instead. Let's hope that the L-mount is sufficiently powerful to make DFD work with any L-mount lens.
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