DPReview TV: Sony a1 review

"useless"? It still took stills and shot 4K video. And its mostly a stills camera, so for stills was fully functional.
Are you think of older Sony cameras that "brick" for a period of time when they overheated?

You can complain about the Northrup's all you want, but they have the A1 and R5 in hand and have shot both side by side.

The summary of the video was that they both thought the R5 AF tracking was better for hitting the iris in humans and better for animals and much better for birds. They looked at the actual images at 100% and the R5 hit focus more often enough that it was clearly better in their opinion. They both agreed that 30 fps was amazing from the A1. The A1 was very responsive and should allow for good cropping as a sports camera. They can't open A1 raw files yet, so no image quality assessments.

I can't wait to see what Canon has in store for the R1 which is rumored for later this year. Early leaks from reputable sites quote Canon insiders saying that the R1 will have a “groundbreaking” new AF system, above the EOS R5/EOS R6.

Kona Mika, Canon Rumors said there is a FW update coming for the R5 in the next month. Will there really be one? Will it improve AF even more? It is said to add video formats and improvements. Will they improve AF more?

Of course you'd think that the Northrups were a reliable source of information, lol

It makes perfect sense.

Tony jumped the gun, and came out with a "first impressions" even before the embargo was lifted.......clearly for the all-important clicks/likes on youtube. The "1st impressions" was clearly designed to make the A1 look bad, or came out that way due to the rushed/botched video creation job they did. I suspect it was a botched/rushed, poorly edited video creation.

On the surface they're pretending to bring up the "Pros/Cons" of the camera, while really "damning it with faint praise", even when it comes to the "pros". Their autofocus "test"......did they validate if it is a camera problem or a lens problem (by repeatedly getting front-focus via multiple lenses) before rushing to declare it as a camera problem ? Total hit-job and I certainly won't blame Sony if they are denied any gear in the future for such "reviews".

Certainly not a credible review source anymore, and throughout the A1 introduction saga, they have not played nice or fair.

@Bank Shot, give me a link to any other side by side video or review of the A1 and R5 where they photograph people, pest and birds in flight. Do you think the Northrups lied, are intentionally misleading people, or are incompetent?

Is there any other argument against Tony's results besides "Tony - Bad"?

What the Northrups did is irrelevant, because they aren't a reliable source of information.

It's like looking for the truth on Fox News.

Does the vast number of other reviews that got released after the embargo, echo what the Northrups are saying ? Does it show a trend ? The Northrups are non-credible shills at the moment, and I am guessing after the Sony legal guys got in touch with them for breaking the embargo, they are now on a "scorched earth" course with the A1, since I doubt they'd get any future gear to review.

This is all pretty funny from the POV of someone who shoots neither system, but has been watching 'Sony' Northrup shill the Big S' products for ages. Now he, kinda by accident, finds the R5 a lot more competent in comparison than one would think, for $2700 less money than the A1.. and Sony fans are LOSING THEIR MINDS.

Fro Knows also did a pretty thorough A1 first test and noted the 30fps limitations-electronic shutter, compressed RAW or JPEG. Still plenty impressive, but for highest quality you'd want lower FPS.

I'm waiting for a proper shootout between the two cameras.

The Northrups, Jared Polin, and Gordon Laing have all done some comparison tests with the R5 and a1 on various factors and have found the two cameras to be very close in performance and output.

We will find out more once the a1 ships and people have time to do more comparisons...but you can't hide from reality: the a1 makes the R5 look good given the cost differential.

I think Nikon and Canon can be pleased at the early A1 reviews. I don't think they were surprised or caught off guard by the A1. Basically the A1 is faster, which is to be expected. Which isn't anything to downplay, but there wasn't any revolutionary new secret feature.

This is what Mark Galer, an infinitely more competent photographer than the Northrup celebrity couple has to say in refuting their incompetence.
Link:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vguyofpy16Y

@Avatar480234, I didn't watch the video link you posted yet, and I will.

However, the video if from "Mark Galer's Alpha Creative Skills" how on earth could that possibly be objective? He has "Alpha" in his channel name.

A quick web check and he is a Sony Alpha Ambassador, paid by Sony. he may be a great photographer, but how on earth can he be unbiased?

He has merch, and a complete web presence that looks for attention like any typical web influencer.

The first comment on the video, when I viewed it, from a Sony kool-aide drinker:

"’Ive been avoiding all the click bait videos out there & waiting for Mark’s honest review - the only reviews I trust when it comes to Sony - only trust a reviewer who knows Sony, knows how to set them up & is also a decent photographer! As always Thx Mark!"

Wow a video from a paid Sony reviewer, I'll bet it is objective!

I would certainly watch Mark Galer, disregarding him being a Sony ambassador, since by and large he is a fair reviewer, and even when he's dissing an aspect of the product, he does not hold back anything, but does it in a non-disagreeable way. Gordon Laing, Gerald Undone, Dan Watson, Manny Ortiz are also reviewers of a similar caliber, but focusing on other facets of the product review.

Ric r5 overheated and was not responsive. If his opinions count then r5 is useless. Thats your guy showing how bad r5 is.

When the R5 gets the overheated error, you can turn it off and on and shoot 4K video and stills all day. The only two things you cannot do are shoot over sampled 4K and 8K.
I think you are confusing the R5 with the old Sonys. If you turned them off and on or removed the battery and put it back, you still could not do anything until they cooled down.
With the R5 you can always shoot 4K (line skipping) video and any type of stills.

@Bank Shot, "he totally dismissed the alleged "eyelash" focusing complaint about the camera". I agree he "dismissed" it as a non issue and didn't dispute it as truth or not. Many people "dismiss" that you need to push shadows 6 stops, doesn't stop trolls from arguing that it is the most critical function of a camera.

His argument wasn't if the A1 missed the focus, but that you don't need a DOF that narrow. I never shoot with a DOF that narrow, but If the R5 can hit that DOF more often the A1, then the R5 is better at it. It might have something to do with the dual pixel focus which can focus on any pixel, while the A1 has fewer AF points and there may not be one exactly over the iris every time. This is something that should be tested more.

In fact he didn't really shoot down any of the Northrups' claims.

@Ric 360: You have a type there:
"I have a feeling Tony is going get a lot of grief."
should read:
"I have a feeling Tony is going get a lot of clicks."

Good grief :-), Tony is always click-baiting controversial stuff, wake up, he and his family LIVE from this channel. Taking TN as a source of reliable information is pathetic:
Don't you remember that he claimed that Sony would introduce a CURVED sensor with the A1? What a drivel.
Don't you remember when he posted on the Panasonic and it's great AF when you could see in the video the AF failing miserably many times?

What better topic than to combine the new Sony A1 and link it to the R5 while messing up the test? The resulting clash of Sony fans with the Canon fan boys eagerly waiting for an opportunity for revenge when they were shamed by the overheating feature of the R5?

That's like mixing ingredients of a nuclear bomb. Don't believe it? Check clicks on youtube of his post. That will earn Tony the next rate for his Beamer :-)

@cxsparc so Tony's key points was the R5 focused better on the human iris, better on pets, and way better on BIF. He also said you don't get 30fps when tracking AF. But he is click bait and shouldn't be trusted. However, Mark Galer didn't disprove or contradict any of this.

Mark merely said why have a shallow DOF? where the iris and eyebrow aren't both in focus. He didn't even test the R5 or A1 in this regard. His video clearly shows the A1 not always shooting 30 fps. The release priority is a common feature on a lot of cameras, including Canon. He was unable to get more than 26.6 fps with AF tracking, even with changing release priority. He got 30 fps when he turned off AF tracking, and went focus area wide. He then shot a large raptor up close at a sanctuary hardly a realistic 30 fps BIF test.

I'm sure Mark is doing quite nice promoting his merch, getting plenty of clicks.

#Kona Mike - "Mark Galer didn't disprove or contradict any of this."

No, that's wrong, Galer proved that the a1 could do 30fps, when the Northrups claimed that it couldn't be done, that they were in communication with Sony to figure out the "problem", blah blah.

The Northrup "problem" was with their own incompetence, for one thing they started out not using focus priority release, every sports shooter knows that release is the correct setting. Mark Galer made that very clear, I guess that you must have been asleep during that part of the video.

There were also questions about whether or not they had updated the lens firmware, the FE70-200 for instance needed an update to be fully compatible at 30fps.

Alex Phan also proved that the a1 could do 30fps with BIF.

Posting the Northrup garbage as any kind of a credible source just isn't valid.

@Bank Shot, Galer was only able to get 26.6 fps with AF tracking, even with release priority set for max fps. Galer technically did 30 fps "BIF", but not really what anyone would consider BIF. He shot a sanctuary (up close) raptor (big) at 30 fps using area wide AF and not AF tracking. The pics he showed of "BIF" were what look to me to be a mostly stationary raptor catching some thrown food. Which to me hardly qualifies as BIF, and is nothing close to what the Northrups' were doing.

Not being able to do AF tracking and 30 fps is news worthy and not click bait and Galer didn't disprove anything. Sony marketing material say 30 fps, I didn't see any "*" saying you needed to be in a special AF mode. I'm sure it can do 30 fps shooting stationary subject, but that isn't what people think when they hear 30 fps.

Does the A1 track a bird's eye at 30 fps? it doesn't seem to.

#Kona Mike - No, that's wrong again, Galer got the full 30fps when he switched to wide area focus mode, as the video clearly stated.

You obviously know nothing about Sony, and it's confusing you. Wide area focus mode tracks just as well as using real-time tracking. I know that because I've owned the a9 since it first came out in 2017, before Sony real-time tracking was invented, and I've tracked with wide area focus mode in thousands of sports pics. BIF people sometimes track with wide area mode when the background makes it easier.

The Northrups are idiots who don't know how to use Sony, and they don't even know how to use Canon MILC either, judging by their past videos. The Northrups claimed a lot lower a1 framerate than 26.5fps, they were waaay off the mark in part because they weren't using release priority.

I expect that the 25/26.5fps vs. 30fps disparity that Galer documented will be tweaked in a firmware release.

The Alex Phan videos back all that up.

@Bank Shot, I obviously know nothing about Sony and wish I was a great as you think you are!

FACT, the A1 needs a certain auto focus mode and settings to hit 30 fps.

The Northrups were correct, it wont do bird tracking it won't work in in 30 fps. The Galer video backs this up. The basic BIF example from the Galer video doesn't prove anything about the 30 fps or BIF tracking. The Northrups actually went out and were shooting in the wild, relying on the tracking and the R5 was better. I'm sure great pros will get great shots with either, but non-pros will need the tracking, which wont be 30 fps on the A1.

It sounds like maybe the 30fps is their marketing catchphrase feature. Like 8K on the R5 (esp. before the firmware updates) it's there and it somewhat works, but there are caveats. Maybe just kick it back down to 20fps and be happy?

#Kona Mike - "non-pros will need the tracking, which wont be 30 fps on the A1"

No, that's wrong again, Mark Galer already proved that the a1 tracks at 30fps in wide area af mode. You are confused because you don't know anything about Sony.

Funny how you refuse to comment on the Alex Phan data that I told you to look at, he is a real BIF shooter, he likes the a1 for BIF, and yes he got 30fps:

"It was shooting with 200-600 in CH+ mode (30 FPS)" https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1687493/0

"I'm happy to report that it [bird eyeaf] works as advertised" https://www.facebook.com/people/Alex-Phan/100007589355024

"I was skeptical about this new feature [bird eyeaf] but after trying it out, it turns out pretty fun to use and the most important thing is IT WORKS" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwzVy75W1-0

Mark Galer got 30fps, Alex Phan got 30fps, it's not arguable.

@Blank Shot, are you kidding me? that first link in your last post shows how bird AF is crap. It can get a stationary bird's eye then lose it, but is mostly a grid of flashing squares over a moving bird. It isn't taking any photos, so no FPS.

second link sends me to Facebook and I don't have a login so I can see anything.

third link same video as first. Ha, is that your proof?

#Kona Mike - Congrats on proving that you aren't a BIF shooter, although it was pretty obvious from the start.

The quotes that i posted, with links, prove that your claims are wrong:
"It was shooting with 200-600 in CH+ mode (30 FPS)"

"I'm happy to report that it [bird eyeaf] works as advertised"

"I was skeptical about this new feature [bird eyeaf] but after trying it out, it turns out pretty fun to use and the most important thing is IT WORKS"

You got nothing.

#Kona Mike - It's proof from a respected and accomplished BIF shooter who has used the gear in question.

Lets see your credentials... oh wait, you don't have any ;-)

@Kona Mike - No, you are wrong again, Alex Phan posted a screen grab of first/last EXIF sequence proving that he got 30fps:

"...so we have "non-sense noise" about A1 can't get 30 fps. I tried couple times and get the result pretty consistent. So here it is.
AF-C, CH+, Release priority, compressed RAW.
A1 + 600GM
5 seconds internal from 33,34,35,36,37 with total of 148 images. That would give out about 29.6 fps.
I can't upload the image here so i have to link back to my FB. My apology."
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2891515781111372&set=a.1957445131185113

You have repeatedly attacked and tried to discredit the words of a well-respected BIF shooter, while failing to offer up any of your own credentials. You don't shoot Sony and you don't shoot BIF, so I don't see where you are qualified to be questioning anything.

Sony real-time af tracks whatever object it locks on to, whether it's automatically locked on or you tell it what to lock on to. If it finds a face it'll automatically move the focus point to the face, and from there to eyeaf, if it finds an eye in the face, human or animal. You don't have to manually put the focus box on the face, like you would with a joystick.

so he wasn't using the A1's new bird tracking feature. He was using the general center area tracking, kind of like the DSLR equivalent of single center point. The Northrups were comparing bird tracking AF of the A1 to the R5 and they were right you can't get 30 fps from the A1 in bird tracking mode and the R5 had better bird tracking than the A1.

@Kona: Let's try some logic here :-)
Tony claims 30 fps Bird tracking doesn't work & R5 tracks birds better.
Others demonstrate they can get 30 fps with bird tracking with A1
Consequence: Either Tony ( :-) ) or his gear are defective.

If you choose to use Tony's claims that have been proven to be unreliable due to either lack of tech competence or intention to click-bait with fake news - so be it. It is a free world, and if that makes you feel better about life.

But please understand that others may prefer pursuing a more difficult life following the line of reason and truth.

Here a direct quote from (y)our beloved Tony:
"Curved sensors are coming... TOMORROW! Sony's camera LEAKED" from 26.1.2021 on YT. He didn't even bother to take that video down or post a comment excusing him for claiming such bs - because it has already been viewed 131k times!

En'uff said:
Barrett Strong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeVx1C73o8k
Money - that's what I want!
:-)

@Kona: It does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwzVy75W1-0

You still don't understand Sony AF. AF wide simply means that the AF system will try to acquire target within the WIDE area with the settings you chose. When tracking has engaged, it will follow the subject even outside of that area.
When bird eye af tracking has lost the target (temporarily) it will switchback to normal phase AF onto the approximate target and try to require eye AF.
As shown in the clip.
P.S. Phan: "there are wide/zone in some of the shot. What you see there is not Center. It is Flexible spot Large. Also, if you shot wildlife long enough and GOOD at panning, you don't use zone or wide. We narrow down the spot."

The a1 is a fantastic camera, but no doubt there's significant profit margin in it. Nothing wrong with that....hey, good for Sony if they can get that price.

But another way to look at it: it's the same body as the $3500 a7sIII, with the stacked sensor and extra Bionz XR processor...there is no way that those two components cost any extra $3000.

But again it's what the market will pay. Some existing Sony shooters will gladly pay for that, and of course, they always have the contract with the AP.

I wonder how many the AP will buy and at what cost will Sony sell it to them at? One thing about having a press agency under contract, is that you need to price high so you still make a nice profit when selling to them at a nice discount. And again, this is not a criticism of Sony. It's just business.

Regardless of how one appraises it as a "pro" model, the a1 is it for Sony...they are not going to come out with another version with a beefed up body. If they had wanted to do that they would have done it with this model.

Avery already knows there is a grip for it. It’s been available for some months already. (If not a year.)

What a strange coincidence, they are all singing the same song ;-)

Avery Robins
Joined on Dec 10, 2020

LarryJones
Joined on Dec 10, 2020

Ric 360
Joined on Dec 11, 2020

Yes. I noticed that. They all say the same thing. And coincidentally they all registered at the same time ... hmmm.

Coincidence? I don’t think so.

And this tone of posing a question like they don’t know the answer (but they do) is very similar to other previously abandoned accounts.

Nope. You don't mean professional. You mean what older photographers associate with older professional cameras. Guess what? New tech, new type of camera, new type of body. Sony is dedicated to small and light. If you want unnecessary bulk because of old associations, I am sure that other companies will accommodate you!

Actually, I just looked and number 1 in mirrorless is a Kodak Funsaver camera..but the Sony a7iii is number 2 :)

The a7III is a solid camera and it was recently lowered in price; that makes for a good combo in terms of sales. Most people don't buy the latest and greatest; they buy what they consider to have value. So it is impressive but understandable why the a7iii continues to perform. The Sony a6000 after all these years considers to sell well.

What is also impressive to me is that the R5 is #4 and the R6 is #5, and also that the a7sIII is #6; those are the newest cameras and all at higher prices, esp the R5 and a7sIII.

" This is Sony at their very best."

Canon is equally capable if they intended to do so. They decided to cripple R5.

I seem to recall that the Lensrentals claim was for the R5? Not the a1.

Per the quote I posted above, Sony stated: "...the heat generation from the image sensor, which is the main factor of the temperature rise inside the main body"

My opinion is that the people who built the camera know more about it than anyone else, but we could try to figure out why. For example the a1 has a stacked sensor and the R5 doesn't. Powering a bank of internal sensor ram is going to use more current, and therefore throw off more waste heat from the sensor.

A carbon fiber heatsink attached to the sensor has to be stabilized by the IBIS system, that will be more difficult because it adds mass and weight that the IBIS has to compensate for. Afaik, this is the first heatsink that's ever been used on an IBIS system.

The sensor is not doing millions or billions of frames per second. If you look at any silicon its the GHz speeds that create heat. Sony Semi's lovely stacked sensor has more column A/D than any previous sensors, and even at 8K they are loafing along. More A/D would make it run cooler than the Canon.
Just saying their claim doesn't pass a basic smell test.
40 years living at the interface of silicon engineers and Marketing folks makes me suspicious.

I was an electronics tech in a previous life, so you'd know more about this than I do. I wish that we knew what frequencies this stuff is running at.

What I don't understand is how more silicon could make things run cooler. Embedded ram generates heat because it takes power to run it, stacked sensors therefore should generate more heat than unstacked sensors.

There is probably an argument that Sony process node sizes and interconnects are going to be better than what Canon has, is that enough to offset the extra heat generated by internal ram. The a1 CIPA battery life numbers are really good, so perhaps so.

Overheating with video is why this matters so much, most people don't seem to be too hung up on battery life these days.

I think the separate grip is better since you can travel smaller and lighter if you want. I do think they should have included the grip especially if the R1 is priced at $6500. Maybe they'll be sold as a kit eventually.

The Nikon D6 is so well designed and thought out that honestly it doesn't seem as heavy or large as it might seem.

The Nikon pro bodies are a joy to use, and there is something special about that shutter sound. That shutter sound will always be iconic, just like the louder sounds from some of the great and classic cars are iconic, like Ferrari, Mustang, Corvette, etc.

That doesn't mean Sony has to copy that size/weight, or even that Nikon should with it's mirrorless pro body when that arrives...but rest assured the Nikon D6 is an amazing tool and feels amazing to use.

In fact I would say that just from a pure design perspective, the Nikon D6 is far more polished and refined at being what it is than any Sony camera.

You can't somehow magically wish heavier objects to be lighter, that's hilarious. It's a failed attempt at rationalization.

a1: 1.62 lb

D6: 2.80 lb

Nikon D6 is obsolete, and obsolete is not refined, it's dead tech that is not ergonomic.

#Thoughts R Us: "there is something special about that shutter sound."

The Sony a1 has a carbon fiber shutter, very few people will be using it, but I imagine that it will have a special sound all it's own. And again, it's another example of Sony innovation that no other company can match.

I do credit Sony with the carbon fiber design and how it mitigates heat internally.

But please, the Nikon pro body like the D6 is a classic in its own right. It's like a classic Ferrari or Mustang or Corvette...it does have a certain appeal to the soul.

If you don't appreciate that then it's on you. But don't denigrate the opinions of others. And please realize that your absolutism is absurd. If you can't admit that any other brand or camera other than Sony has anything else to offer then that puts you in a cult.

It takes nothing away from Sony to simply appreciate another type of camera from one of the most venerable names in all of photography.

Remember, photographers are supposed to be artists, not technicians.

#Thoughts R Us - "I do credit Sony with the carbon fiber design and how it mitigates heat internally."

I said "carbon fiber shutter", not carbon fiber heat sink. You are making a lot of derogatory comments about the a1, but you clearly don't know anything about it. Your constant false generalizations about Sony are the very definition of absolutism and cult behavior.

#Thoughts R Us - "photographers are supposed to be artists, not technicians."

You don't get to tell people what their photography is supposed to be.

@brownie 314

"It should have a built-in grip and a larger hand grip. Sony should have gone full Nikon D6 on the body. Anything less makes no sense for a camera in this price range with these capabilities."

You couldn't be more wrong. The big cameras are over. The gigantic bodies were needed to absorb the vibration of the high-speed reflex mechanisms and freight the enormous batteries. They are now a historic footnote.

Canon's has publicly stated that the R5 is the mirrorless heir to it's 5D series but it's smaller than any FF Canon DSLR - it's even smaller than the 80D.

@Bank Shot: I am sorry but I am going to totally embarrass you.

You wrote: "I said "carbon fiber shutter", not carbon fiber heat sink. You are making a lot of derogatory comments about the a1, but you clearly don't know anything about it."

Yet, in a later comment not too far above, you wrote this: "FYI, the a1 has 5.5 stops of IBIS-only stabilization, and Sony is doing it with a carbon fiber heatsink attached to the IBIS structure."
Link: https://www.dpreview.com/videos/8702427033/dpreview-tv-sony-a1-review?comment=1040281832

So which is it? Now to me it doesn't really matter since you were just trying to get all technical on me just to insult me. And even the comment you criticized of mine read ""I do credit Sony with the carbon fiber design and how it mitigates heat internally." So that "carbon fiber design" could apply to heat sink or shutter, or both for all I care.

But I find it ironic that you literally contradict yourself.

RubberDials - no those bodies were not big to absorb shock energy from from the shutter. If that were the case all DSLR would have been that big. No -- those bodies are big because when you have three feet of lens out in front of the body - it is useful to have something to hold on to that isn't a toothpick sized object.

#Thoughts R Us: "So which is it? ...how it mitigates heat internally"

1)The a1 has a carbon fiber heatsink and it has a carbon fiber shutter, as I stated. I'm not sure why actual facts and truth are so confusing.

2)The carbon fiber shutter is quite obviously not put there to mitigate heat, why would you think that. You claimed that the D6 had an "iconic" shutter sound, despite never having used it, and I pointed out that the a1 shutter probably also does, because it's carbon fiber.

#Thoughts R Us: "I am sorry but I am going to totally embarrass you."

I'm embarrassed because you didn't know that the a1 had a carbon fiber shutter? Lol, no.

#brownie314: "If that were the case all DSLR would have been that big. No -- those bodies are big because when you have three feet of lens out in front of the body"

People put big lenses on small DSLRs, so that doesn't make sense.

And it's not logical either, big lenses have tripod mounts to support the weight, they are not designed to be held by the camera body.

The fulcrum point of a big lens when it's mounted on a camera is not at the camera body, it's on the lens.

@Bank Shot: please, stop digging. You clearly claimed that you said "carbon fiber shutter" and not heat sink...and then berated me for possibly suggesting the heat sink. Then I point out how in another post you clearly stated that it had a carbon fiber heat sink.

In this instance I don't care about the tech details, but only that you clearly contradicted yourself to try to score a cheap shot against me.

As for me using a D6, yes, I have and I I've used a D5 as well. They are finely made machines and they do have a great iconic shutter sound IMHO.

Please try to stop insulting people and stick to discussing the topics of the cameras at hand.

"People put big lenses on small DSLRs, so that doesn't make sense." - people do all kinds of things that are not optimal - so...not an argument.
No - people hand hold long lenses all the time. A tripod is ideal - but not always convenient for all situations - especially fast moving sporting events where the photographer is moving with the athletes. It is better, if you have to hand hold - to have one hand on the big lens and the other on a firm big grasp point on the body. That is what the D6 and all Nikon D(x) bodies provide.

Yes, if you are handholding large lenses, the larger camera bodies make for a better balance and grip.

BTW the Nikon pro bodies are really well designed. They are big but don't feel as heavy as you might think they would. They are remarkable machines.

#brownie314: "people hand hold long lenses all the time"

Yes, people hand-hold the weight of long lenses by the fulcrum point on the lens, *not* by the camera body, as you keep falsely claiming.

The fact that there is a tripod mount at the fulcrum point of long lenses proves that, it's not arguable. No lens mount on a camera body is designed to support the weight of a long lens. That's why camera body size is irrelevant.

This sobbing nostalgia for giant camera bodies goes against what most manufacturers are doing with MILC, companies know that people don't want huge heavy cameras.

#Thoughts R Us: "You clearly claimed that you said "carbon fiber shutter" and not heat sink"

No, I clearly stated that the a1 has both a carbon fiber heat sink and a carbon fiber shutter, because it's does, that's a fact. I research the gear I post about.

You didn't know any of that, and for some weird reason you claimed that a carbon fiber shutter can mitigate heat. Next time research cameras before attempting to bash 'em.

As for your D6 ownership claim, lets see some of those D6 pics that you shot. Your DPR gallery is empty, so where is your website, instagram, Flickr, etc.? Have you ever posted a D6 photo to any DPR thread?

@BS: I will drop this silly line of argument about what you wrote about carbon fiber shutter and carbon fiber heat sink, etc. It's irrelevant and everyone can see for themselves if any one cares.

As for posting shots or disclosing IG, etc...why would I do that? All that would do is allow people like you to criticize me more. I don't need to prove anything to you and no matter what I proved, it wouldn't matter because you are not acting in good faith.

So believe what you want about me; no sweat off my back.

"Yes, people hand-hold the weight of long lenses by the fulcrum point on the lens, *not* by the camera body, as you keep falsely claiming."
You are kidding right? You think people hold a camera-body assembly with ONE HAND? You are either just grasping to win your un-winnable argument - or you have never held a camera before. You choose.

BTW - who designs a heat sink out of carbon fiber - a substance that has a very low thermal conductivity relative to metals?

@Brownie314

"RubberDials - no those bodies were not big to absorb shock energy from from the shutter. If that were the case all DSLR would have been that big."

This is my quote, I did not mention shutter: "The gigantic bodies were needed to absorb the vibration of the high-speed reflex mechanisms and freight the enormous batteries."

Cameras like the 1DXII and D5 flip the mirror at ≈14 fps. That creates a lot of vibration in the mirror box that would cause significant shake in smaller bodies. Larger battery packs are needed to drive the cameras at high speeds. There is no smaller DSLR that achieves the reflex viewing rates of these cameras. The body size has nothing to do with using large lenses.

Rubber - but that doesn't make any sense. If shutter shock (which IS what you are talking about) can happen at 14fps - it can happen at 1fps. Any motion blur due to shutter shock is not dependent on frame rate. So - if these big FF shutters can cause motion blur at 14fps - they can do it at 1fps. And clearly CaNikon has made lighter weight FF dslr bodies.
The D850 snicks away at 7fps. Are you telling me there is some significant difference between 7fps and 14fps vs 1fps WRT shutter shock?

BTW - I am not saying shutter shock doesn't exist. I am also not saying that larger bodies would not be less prone (because they would be). What I am saying is that clearly CaNikon has made small DSLR FF bodies. And those do not seem to be any more prone to shutter shock than the large bodies. Meaning - after a certain body weight is achieved - it becomes much less of an issue. Maybe that weight is somewhere around a D750?

#Thoughts R Us: "As for posting shots or disclosing IG, etc...why would I do that?"

People who can prove that they are photographers with the gear that they are arguing about establish credibility.

Failing that, at least posting links back to credible sources makes for a convincing argument, per any high school debate class.

#brownie314 - "who designs a heat sink out of carbon fiber"

Sony stated that it's a 5x improvement, and that they already use it on smartphones.

#brownie314 - "a substance that has a very low thermal conductivity relative to metals?"

"And carbon fiber, in particular, makes a pretty darned good heat conductor. ...That black woven material you see in high-end tennis rackets and racing bicycles, or stuck to the dashboards of cheap wannabe sports cars, is now making its way into the server room. It’s not there for structural integrity. It’s there as a newer, lighter, more flexible heat-transference device.

... part is due to the material’s stranded nature. Strands present more surface area to the heat source than does a solid object, like a metal heat sink. That allows the velvet to soak up more heat than an equivalent mass of metal could. And, since it transfers that heat better than any metal, it’s doubly more efficient." https://www.eejournal.com/article/carbon-is-cool/

#brownie314: "You think people hold a camera-body assembly with ONE HAND?"

Posting lies about what was said isn't an argument, lol.

I said that people hold the WEIGHT by one hand, at the fulcrum point of the lens, because that's how it's done.

You were wrong about the carbon fiber heat sink, and you are wrong about this.

#brownie314: "Tires steer cars - therefore - steering wheel size is irrelevant"

So now cars are somehow the same as camera bodies? Lol, that's the most ridiculous claim yet.

Tell us again how carbon fiber is not good heat sink material ;-)

#brownie314: "there is no doubt that cameras with long lenses are meant to be supported at the lens"

Why the sudden change of opinion? What happened to all your claims that people hold big lenses by the camera body? Strange.

"What happened to all your claims that people hold big lenses by the camera body?" - lies are not arguments. I could have sworn someone here said that before. Please show me where I claimed that people hold big lenses by the camera body. I will wait - possibly forever.

I don't get the obsession with the old ways. Big and bulky is just awful. Not everyone is elderly and wants everything clunky and heavy. It isn't needed. You have every other company if you want unnecessary bulk. GO with Panasonic.

And there is no better "balance." Stop parroting this. You hold it on the lens at the center of gravity. All that a bulky and heavy body does is add unnecessary weight.

"So what? A larger body still helps support and steady the whole assembly."

It does nothing to steady the heavy lens. It does nothing to support the lens. It is just added bulk and weight for the sake of nostalgia.

Thecylon - says someone who has never shot a 100-500 with an A7 matchbox on the flange end

When did Sony ever make a 100-500 lens in e-mount?

Once again, you are posting false information.

What 100-500 lens was ever adapted to e-mount?

My point is - big lenses exist. Like it or not. Even in native e-mount.

I shoot the FE200-600 on the a9, it works perfectly, because as many others have already told you, the weight of the lens is held by the hand, not by the camera body.

We know that you don't understand that, but it's a fact.

There only thing you got here is a bunch of false claims.

Just give it up and move on.

You hold on the lens at the center of gravity. Adding extra weight on one side might tip this by a tiny fraction, but the reality is just that you are just adding weight for the sake of it. Nostalgia and inability to adapt is what this is about.

Additionally, Sony's mirrorless lens designa have centered gravity as a goal unlike moat front heavy designs of past telephotos.

Thecylon - yes, there is no doubt that with a big lens - you have to hold the lens at its CG. Or the mount collar or some place to hold on. But - you also hold the camera grip in your OTHER hand. Or am I the only one that handles big lens / camera with two hands? Maybe you hold a big lens with your left and poke the shutter button with your tongue so your right hand is free to engage in other activities. I have not seen this style - but if you say so - I guess you do. No - most people I know like to have a nice grip to hold with their right while they hold the lens CG with their left. And having a nice, big right hand grip does help move the camera / lens combo around. I have never used your tongue method and I probably won't try it.

People keep talking about "balance," which is why I addressed that bogus argument. Yes, other hand is on the camera and the regular grip is absolutely fine. Are you slipping or something? Are you dropping lots of cameras?

The grip doesn't carry any lens weight, it's not heavy, so it is not relevant to holding weight on the fulcrum point of the lens.

Not sure why this is so confusing for you.

Maybe they will post some examples like this for everyone to see and judge.
https://2.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS1120x1120~forums/59547045/529c01ebeb154cd4acb6ba8ee54b659b

#LarryJones - "This is the first thing I look for in a high end camera"

I'd like to see some examples of the high-end work that you do, especially with the R5 that you keep posting about.

Got a website, Instagram, Flickr, etc? Your DPR gallery is empty.

I complimented Sony above for their innovative passive heat management system and the attention to detail that this shows. Would that Sony put that same attention to detail in the design and ergonomics of their camera bodies.

And this wouldn't mean going that much larger. They could even improve the design and keep it the current size.

Sony should hire Jony Ive and his new design company to rethink their camera design. A Jony Ive design with Sony's advanced tech would be something special.

Isn't that the first think everyone looks at when they are at a store considering cameras? You hold it in your hand before turning it on to see how it feels. Then you fiddle with the buttons and dials to see how they feel.
Do people buy expensive cameras without ever holding them first? I wouldn't unless there was a liberal return policy.
About 6 months ago I looked at an X-T3 and X-T4. Bothe great cameras. Both with small grips. I couldn't hold either comfortably. But then the S10 came out and it was much improved for me.

Unfortunately, with less camera stores around, and even stores like Best Buy not always carrying as full a selection of cameras, many now buy online based on specs.

I think when most get their camera, they rightfully are impressed by its technical capabilities, and just learn to live with it. Many probably don't know what else is out there and if there's anything better.

That being said, I do think Sony loses some sales based on some of their design shortcomings.

I still say Sony should bring in an outside design firm to offer a fresh perspective, a perspective based not just on engineering, but on art and human factors.

A better design would probably gain Sony a decent amount of sales.

@Ric 360

"Maybe they will post some examples like this for everyone to see and judge. https://2.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS1120x1120~forums/59547045/529c01ebeb154cd4acb6ba8ee54b659b"

That's a picture of the A7II - a camera that came out seven years ago. What has that got to do with the A1?

@Thoughts R Us

"I complimented Sony above for their innovative passive heat management system and the attention to detail that this shows. Would that Sony put that same attention to detail in the design and ergonomics of their camera bodies."

Yes, you're nothing if not canny. You don't want to be all one note and get banned. And praising them insincerely in one area means you can attack them with more justification in another - as your post above demonstrates.

@RubberDials: you give me too much credit!

Maybe I'm just being honest. Maybe I'm just saying what many others have said for years: that when it comes to the technology inside, Sony is to be admired, but when it comes to design and the human factors, the user experience, they could use some help. And it's not just cameras, a lot of their products have had this problem going back years.

I'm sorry if you can't admit that Sony is like all brands, with their strengths and weaknesses. Again, there's a term for someone who believes that any person, group, or company is perfect and that is a cult member.

But if you want to believe that I am some sort of devilishly clever commenter, then go ahead.

@Thoughts R Us

"Maybe I'm just being honest."

Nope.

@TRU

" the user experience"

How ironic of you talking about user experience! When someone have positive user experience about Sony, you won't consider it at all, On the other hand, you keep bashing the cameras based on less than 5% of real user experiences where the person either don't own a Sony or based on some subjective preference.

I have never met a Sony user who have any issues with the design of the camera he is using. It is just a matter of getting used to it. I have been using a lot of cameras and never had any issues with the design, even though I have a large hands, but that did not prevent me from using and enjoying the camera.

@TRU

"A better design would probably gain Sony a decent amount of sales."

The last time I checked, they do sell a decent amount while dominating the Mirrorless market share!

"Maybe I'm just saying what many others have said for years"

Others said the opposite of what you are claiming but you don't mention it nor do you even consider it as a REAL user experience.

Stop your nonsense and grow up.

@EG: I grant you that many use Sony cameras, and thus the user experience can't be all bad. And yes, I am sure some like and enjoy the Sony user experience. And yes, some of it is just getting used the controls and menu's.

But it is a common point that many make that Sony needs some help on UX. Even Sony acknowledged that when they totally changed their menu design staring with the a7sIII. Why? Some defended the old menu system just like you are doing here. But clearly Sony felt that it needed improvement.

As to "growing up"...well, I'm not the one with the rather insulting personal tone.

@TRU

I asked you and several people before about the reason that make Sony menu's bad, and how often are you using the menu (for what reason). Non have answered the question because it is just a repetitive nonsense.

Could you tell me how many times Canon did changed the menu? Why didn't you and others complained about it? if it was such a sufficient menu system, why would Canon change it?
Anyone who is used to a certain system, will find other systems difficult or bad (mostly).

You shouldn't have a double standards, anyone who can go through your comments history will see how you totally ignore facts provided by real owners and keep on repeating the same things over and over. You just can't admit your double standards towards a certain brand.

Its cold and snowing where I am now.

I'd like someone to tell us how well the A7Siii/A7Riv/A1 body works with thick gloves and a larger lens.

@Ric 360

Here you go.. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4456565

Also you could ask Paul Nicklen, who is using Sony cameras for years in the Artic. They seem to be very happy with the cameras.

Do you own one of these cameras btw?

Yeah, he is coming from the A9ii. I remember seeing a lot of people using the Em1 mark II in the arctic and sub zero weather. Of course that old MFT had a nicer grip than the A9, but you can use those smaller grips with gloves. Its just not as easy.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#692,713,ha,t

I think some are missing the point too. Sony has the smallest grips on their bodies (some like that), and they don't offer any options to all of those who prefer a larger grip. They don't offer a top LCD at all many more either.
What makes it seem a little worse is they are charging $6500 for a camera that lacks a lot of features many expect in a FF in that price range.
That's why the A1 gets compared to the R5 and not more expensive cameras.

@Ric 360

Form factor is subjective, some people prefer smaller form factor and others prefer bigger form factor. Neither are wrong, it is all up to the personal preferences.

Your point is not valid because of that. Real user experience shows that people who are using these cameras are happy with them and you can't just disapprove that because your personal preferences are different. I have a large hands and never had any issues with any lens I have used. In fact, this is the first time I see people (which don't own the camera) complain about something that they never used.

There are no complaints from real users of these cameras with the issue you mentioned, this is enough to stop this nonsense.

Again, do you own one of these cameras?

"Form factor is subjective," - which is why offering a greater choice of form factors rather than one extreme (on the small stripped down side) is important. If you are going offer one, make in the in the middle of what people want.
The A1 form factor is close to budget level bodies with no top LCD, a smaller grip, a 3 inch LC (vs 3.2), and no vertical grip.
Look at all these bodies that sell for under $2000 next to the A1. The grips area about the same, controls are similar, and the Z6 comes with the top LCD the A1 lacks.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#815,795,692,867,ha,b

And since you ask, this is the body I shot with for years. It is 10x more comfortable and easier to hold than the A1/A7Siii/A7Riv body.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#867,552,ha,t
it has a top LCD, and despite its age had the same size LCD with near identical resolution.
IMHO, Sony has gone backwards in ergonomics.

@EG: Actually Canon has had remarkable consistent menu's for several years. They may have tweaked them here and there, but they did not do a total makeover like Sony did. Because they didn't need to do so.

Also, one other little point: it is only with the a7siii and the a1 that Sony has full touchscreen allowing touch menu operation. Why? That tech has been around a long time, others have used it for a long time. Sony knows how to do it, but why didn't they give that useful feature only until now and only on their higher priced models? It's baffling but it's one of those oversights that Sony tends to make.

Just like their lower quality back LCD screen..again, it makes no sense. Sony is perfectly capable of putting in a high quality LCD screen. But they cheap out even on their most expensive model.

#Thoughts R Us: "Just like their lower quality back LCD screen..again, it makes no sense."

I can see how it makes no sense to people who don't have experience with MILC. Because with MILC there is this thing called an "evf", where the most-used functions, like chimping, are done better. People don't want a weak rear lcd, that gets washed out in bright light.

Modern evf's all use OLED panels, not inferior lcd panels, so p.q. is much better with the evf, and it never washes out in bright light.

MILC does not need top lcd either, because camera settings are visible in the evf. Top lcd sucks down power, there is nothing logical about it. It's nothing more than a nod to DSLR boomers who can't accept change.

@Ric 360

So your factor in deciding a camera price is the form factor? If a camera is small it shouldn't be rated as pro-level camera? Lol, you make me laugh with this excuses.

Top LCD was a good advantage back when optical viewfinders where the standard, what advantage it will give you nowadays? You can see and adjust the exposure from the viewfinder (in which case it is the best in class) or the back LCD as they contain all of the needed information

Sony bodies have more customization than others provide, it is all about your talent in preparing the camera the way you like.

While I do agree on the A77II as having a better form factor for (me), in which case will lead to the same point above. Some people prefer smaller form factor, some prefer bigger, none of them are wrong.

So your point regarding the form factor is only valid for people who prefer larger form factor.

An LCD top panel is the way to go when checking settings. It uses almost no battery. And can been seen while the camera I down at your side.

Anybody who says a top LCD sucks power has no clue. Its different tech than the rear LCD and EVF which use a lot more power. A top LCD uses virtually none. Its similar to a kindle screen that can run for weeks vs. a phone screen which lasts hours.

ElGhuraify, did you really just imply form factor should NOT be considered when deciding a cameras price? I bet you Sony feels the A1 EVF justifies a higher price than if it didn't have one. Its insane that you do not.

@Bank Shot: Even on a mirrorless with EVF, people still use the back LCD screen. Some use it a lot. It depends on the individual and the photographer. If the EVF was all people needed and used, then why even put in a back LCD screen?

So the EVF is no excuse for not giving a quality back LCD.

I'd say the top LCD is less important than the back screen, but of course, even with EVF, some like to use that feature. And those top LCD's do not use much power at all.

Also please dispense with the insulting tone and stereotyping of those who have used DSLRs. I have news for you: most of those buying mirrorless have also had DSLRs. And those using DSLRs not are just boomers. And quite frankly, any company wanting to sell mirrorless has to appeal to those who've used DSLRs. There are not that many new camera buyers going straight into mirrorless.

@TRU

So what was so bad about Sony's menu, which I see you complaining a lot about it without giving a valid reason! Also let me ask you this question again, how often do you use the menu and for what? could you please answer the related questions?

I agree with you that the back screen is lacking behind the competition, while the competition is lacking behind in terms of viewfinder. However, that doesn't make this camera lacking in general by any means. other flagship cameras with the same price point targeting the same market don't have 50 MP, FPS, video options, Sensor readout speeds and many other advantages. The only thing that you and others have is exactly the same over the years (menu, colors and now "built like a tank".

It comes down to this, Sony offers one smaller body in all their cameras over $2000. It's a smaller body which appeals to some, but not everyone.
Canon has the R5 body and the "pro" body on the 1Dx3 in comparison. Obviously that's more of a choice. Both the R5 and 1Dx3 offer features the A1/A7Siii/A7Riv do not. So its impossible to get them with Sony.
If the Sony body were highly rated it might make more sense, but its not. It is a step below the R5 according to review sites. (example:"Body and Design - We Prefer the Canon R5")

Its a simple fix For Sony though. Offer a pro body and the argument ends.

#Ric 360: "An LCD top panel is the way to go when checking settings."

If people wanted that, camera manufacturers would be putting it on all MILC bodies, but they aren't. Most MILC bodies do not have a top lcd.

When most manufacturers aren't doing something, it might be because people don't want it. I know that's hard to understand, some people think that they know it all, that everyone wants what they want.

Of course an lcd panel uses power, but I can see how people who don't own Sony are so used to dealing with terrible battery life that it's minor in their big inefficiency picture.

#Ric 360: "It's a smaller body which appeals to some, but not everyone."

No single camera body size appeals to everyone.

You keep claiming that what you want is what everyone wants, but that's clearly not the case.

Sony has been doing ff MILC for 10 years now, they have focus groups and they do user studies, they are giving their customers what the customer wants. No top lcd, no silly giant MILC bodies, the best battery life on the planet, the best af, the best lens selection, etc.

#Thoughts R Us: "Even on a mirrorless with EVF, people still use the back LCD screen"

DSLR owners certainly do, it's all they know because they never had an evf. Same thing with the weird fixation on having a top lcd, that most MILC bodies don't have.

You failed to address the specific points that were made, for instance not being able to use a rear lcd when it's washed out in bright light. Ignoring facts doesn't make for a convincing argument.

@Ric 360
Which features that the 1DXIII offer over the Sony A1? The R5 does appeal to some, but not everyone also. People who prefer smaller form factor are not interested in both of Canon's offerings.

What applies to Sony, it also apply to Canon.

"Offer a pro body" could you refer me to anyone who could define a pro body? or is it again some personal preferences?

" according to review sites."

Well according to this review site they "loved the deeper grip, the buttons and dials feels really good" so could you refer me to how many sites are describing the A1 body not being a pro body, or how it lacks in handling? and if so, how many there are compared to others?

"We Prefer"
Key word here is we prefer. Again, a subjective opinion (preference) which you don't understand and keep including.

"Which features that the 1DXIII offer over the Sony A1"

larger grip
Top LCD
vertical grip
more controls
larger rear LCD

We are talking about bodies and ergonomics and that's a lot the A1 left off.

This is the class the A1 falls under for body and ergonomics.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#815,692,867,852,795,ha,t

The next level (with larger read LCDs and top LCD) is this class. https://camerasize.com/compact/#861,851,ha,t

And then you have the "Pro" class. (I added the A99ii because with vertical grip is was very competitive)
https://camerasize.com/compact/#838,839,687,ha,t

@Ric 360

It seems that you still can't differentiate between personal preferences and features.

-First of all, not everyone need/want a larger grip you can't decide that it is a drawback.

- Top LCD's are essential for cameras with optical viewfinders, while EVFs offer much more information.

- Again, not everyone wants a permanent attached grip into their cameras, subjective.

- You are wrong, you can have more than 17 function buttons on the A1 to customize it the way you want.

- A1 is clearly lacking in terms of rear LCD, not that 0.2 will make a huge difference.

I will tell you what does features mean.

A1 have 250% more resolution
- 50% more FPS.
- Best EVF in the market.
- Both cameras are made from the same materials.
- Better video capabilities.
and much more FEATURES inside the camera that the 1DX is not even close to.

I could say the smaller and lighter form factor is an advantage, but as I sai before, it is just subjective.

ElGhuraify.
You are making my argument.
Saying Sony offers a small limited feature one-size fits-all body isn't helping you.
Sony only has one form factor. Its in the "small" class with fewer features. ITs fine for those who want that.
But Sony is neglecting the majority who want other form factors too.
Sony has a number of features they do not offer all because of this. They offer less than their competitors when it comes to body features, body sizes, and ergonomics.
This is the class the A1 falls under for body and ergonomics.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#815,692,867,852,795,ha,t

The next level (with larger read LCDs and top LCD) is this class. https://camerasize.com/compact/#861,851,ha,t

And then you have the "Pro" class. (I added the A99ii because with vertical grip is was very competitive)
https://camerasize.com/compact/#838,839,687,ha,t

@Bankshot, ElGhuraify

Don't waste your time arguing with Richard 360 and Thoughts R Us - they are astroturfers. They don't actually believe any of the things they write.

Ric 360 is not and has never been a Sony user. This is his brand: https://j.mp/2OnWyCj

Imagine complaining about the size of Sony's grip when you use something like that!

Rubber Dials, can't say I've ever seen one of those in person.
But look at the classes of bodies. the newer model of the one in your picture falls in into the same class as the A1. My old A77ii falls in the next class with a larger grip and top LCD.

This is the class the A1 falls under for body size and ergonomics.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#815,692,867,852,795,ha,t

The next level (with larger rear LCDs and top LCD) is this class. https://camerasize.com/compact/#861,851,ha,t

And then you have the "Pro" class. (I added the A99ii because with vertical grip is was very competitive)
https://camerasize.com/compact/#838,839,687,ha,t

@RubberDials

Yes, it is clearly as you said. Will call it a day and stop arguing with them.

#Ric 360: "You are making my argument"

No, he isn't.

You keep failing to address the fact that most MILC manufacturers aren't offering what you want.

Sony is the #1 MILC brand, because they give customers what the customer wants, better than any other camera brand.

There are 5 FF MILC manufactures that I know of (does Sigma count?). Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and. Leica.

All but Sony offer FF cameras with larger rear LCDs and a top LCD.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#851,861,813,843,ha,t

@Ric 360

You buffoon, I actually owned an A77 - it felt exactly the same in the hand as the A7rIV. The grip depth and size is exactly the same!

The R5, A7rIV and z7 are also the same size.

It helps if you've actually handled these cameras.

@RubberDials

He won't, I asked him several time about it and he ignored me.

But look what I found in 1DXIII's review. "What we don't like"
"Menus are increasingly complex, could benefit from more organization"
"It's big and heavy; awkward to use in live view for video"

So much for a flagship with non Sony menu and "BEST" Handling lol.

Should we start parroting this for the next 10 years? :)

Rubber dials, I don't get the name calling that Sony fans do all the time. Please be more civil.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#826,552,31,867,ha,t
https://camerasize.com/compact/#826,867,31,552,ha,f
"I actually owned an A77 - it felt exactly the same in the hand as the A7rIV. The grip depth and size is exactly the same"
The grip on the A77 and A77ii is a little deeper, longer (due to thinker body) and taller (no hanging pinkie).

As we can see with our own eyes you re wrong. You don't know what you are talking about.

@Ric 360

So your argument is we don't have stacked sensor technology, or even BSI, or dual recording, back-up or chaining, or custom white balance etc., but we have got a top plate LCD? Mmm convincing.

Finally, a Sony user agrees Sony no longer offers a camera with a Top LCD, a 3.2 inch rear LCD, and a larger grip, like other manufactures.

With A mount we had a few choices with body styles. I never owned the A99, but the A77ii felt good in the hand and that top LCD was very useful. Everyone said the A99i was even better.

@Ric 360

Your beloved 1DXIII "Pro body" that is better than the Sony (according to you) is under (What we don't like) section in this site. Why are you still bragging about bigger form factor then?

Below is what is written about A7S III (which is the same body of A1) under (what we like section)

- "Comfortable ergonomics"

How ironic is that huh? Could you please explain?

#Ric 360: "All but Sony offer FF cameras with ...top LCD"

Not as a standard offering they don't. And none of those are professional sports cameras like the a1 that is the subject of this article.

Top lcd is a waste of camera real estate, that is much better served by button/dial interfaces. That should be obvious, but apparently not.

And once again... rear lcd washes out in bright light regardless of the platform, a bigger lcd isn't going to help with that. I'm glad that Sony uses the lcd that they do, I don't want to pay for a bigger lcd, and apparently neither do most of the other Sony customers.

After confirming the bad handling of the 1DXIII and Canon's complex menu system, while on the other hand the comfortable ergonomics from Sony. Next argument will be the placement of the C1 button lol.

"Not as a standard offering they don't"
Its a choice. That is what Sony fans no longer understand.
It is better to have choices rather than a one-size-fits-all body that lacks a lot of features that some people want.

In the A mount days we had choice. A65 didn't have a top LCD, the A77 did. And the A99 was even better.

#Ric 360: "Its a choice."

No, it's not a choice, you can't choose to have it or not have it on any specific camera model, from any manufacturer. It's an abnormality reserved for just a few cameras, that are designed to make DSLR boomer holdouts feel comfortable about moving to MILC.

Top lcd is clearly not widely accepted on MILC, most manufacturers do not offer it.

Lol @Ric 360 still can't reply to my comments because of his double standards.

A1 have better and more comfortable ergonomics than the 1DXIII, not to mention the "complex menu system" that some were bragging about all day.

Yes Sony tells users today "No, it's not a choice". You don't get a choice. We won't offer it at all.
With the A65 and A77 it was.

@Ric 360

Stop spreading misleading information. It was not offered with the A65, it was offered on the newer A68.

Still didn't reply to my comments?

@Ric 360

"As we can see with our own eyes you re wrong. You don't know what you are talking about."

You want me to post the link to A77 sale - it's still up.

"The grip on the A77 and A77ii is a little deeper, longer (due to thinker body) and taller (no hanging pinkie)."

The trouble is, mate, you're an M43 user, astroturfing for Canon and you're talking about bodies you've never seen or handled. The SLT bodies had a curvy body design, and the mirrorless bodies are more angular, but the grip geometry is the same - depth, hight, angle. The control wheel is even at the same angle.
https://j.mp/3rFpYu6

For anyone who wonders how the Sony body rates against the 1DX3, this site lets you compare.

The Sony is the green bar and the 1Dx3 is the yellow that shows it scores higher.
https://g1.img-dpreview.com/376369D3CF0F42B7AD68007648191EB0.jpg

You can check for yourself. Go to the last page of the A7Siii review and use the comparison widget.

I did have a typo above. My point was Sony offered choice before the A65 did not have a top LCD and the A77 did.

Rubber, naming calling and making up fakes stuff doesn't help your cause. Saying one grip is curved and the other isn't, then contradicting yourself and saying they have the same geometry makes shows you are making stuff up.
It's obvious in the comparison too. Its there for all to see. They are not the same.
You were wrong, just move on.

@Ric

Sony is "Comfortable ergonomics", while 1DXIII is not favorable because of its handling according to DPR. Face it and accept that fact.

Can you show us a pictures for your claim of A65 for having a top LCD please?

ElGhuraify. Its not my opinion. I was posting what this site says.
The 1DX3 build quality and ergonomics rate a lot higher vs the Sony body when the two are compared.
If you do not like their conclusion when the two are directly compared take it up with them.
And YES!!!! You agree too! Sony offered choice with the A65/A77 one had a top LCD and the other did not. 100% agree!!!
Too bad they don't offer that choice or option anymore.

#Ric 360: "Yes Sony tells users today "No, it's not a choice"

No camera manufacturer gives you a choice for top lcd by specific model. You keep trying and failing to troll Sony for doing what all manufacturers do.

Once again, most MILC bodies do not have top lcd, that is not arguable, it's a fact. What you want is not what most people want.

#Ric 360: "ElGhuraify. Its not my opinion."

Agreed, it's the opinion of the company that's paying you to constantly bash Sony with all of this nonsense. Looks like they are wasting their money, tho ;-)

#Ric 360: "I was posting what this site says"

You attempted to claim that a tiny sliver portion of a small yellow bar is an accurate representation of what the entire market thinks. You failed to attach any poll data or any numerical representation to that little sliver, it's so tiny and undefined that it's insignificant.

One thing I've noticed about some of the Sony defenders: they get very personal and can't confine their discussion to the camera topics. They also have this weird idea that anyone who disagrees with them must be getting paid to do it.

Bank shot, please stop the personal attacks.
I posted link to the DPR conclusion. And I posted a link to the camera size comparison.
Those are not my opinions, just information from experts.
I've also praised Sony repeatedly. The A77/A7ii/A99ii are great camera bodies with all the features I prefer. That was my opinion.
I just don't get why you guys get so uncivil.

Thoughts, its weird. I do not see this as much with other brands. As soon as I see name calling and those strange personal attacks, I know what brand they are "defending". And don't get me wrong, 99% of Sony users are great people. It's that 1%.

Longest thread ever?

FWIW, having read thousands of posts from various commentators on dpr, I've generally found TRU to write mostly thoughtful, well-considered and rational posts.

Like all of us, he has personal preferences over brands and designs, which do come across in his posts, but unlike certain other rubbery folk, he appreciates the good points, as well as the faults, that are present in all brands and models.

Furthermore, I've never known TRU to descend to rudeness or personal attacks, even when vigorously challenged.

#Thoughts R Us: "they also have this weird idea that anyone who disagrees with them must be getting paid to do it."

Yes, somebody who joined DPR in 2009, with thousands of posts reflecting a constant hardcore anti-Sony agenda, but never any photos, website, Flickr, instagram, etc., is only out here for the most innocent of purposes.

#Ric 360: "I posted link to the DPR conclusion."

No, you posted a link to an undefined graphic, that essentially fell within the margin of error, along with grandiose claims like:

"The 1DX3 build quality and ergonomics rate a lot higher vs the Sony body when the two are compared."

The graphic link you posted clearly didn't back that up, and neither does the DPR conclusion.

@entoman

"but unlike certain other rubbery folk, he appreciates the good points, as well as the faults, that are present in all brands and models."

Almost nothing he writes is true.

99% of my posts on here are correcting misinformation spread by astroturfers like him and Ric who have had more accounts on here than you've had hot dinners. TRU has kept his account by knowing when and where to push his marketing but it looks to me like he will lose it soon.

@Ric 360

I don't have a 'cause' and I 'don't make stuff up', I leave that to you.

Trashing the A1 isn't going that well for you under any of your accounts, because it's obviously an exceptional product and to people who don't know you're a paid forum influencer you just look bitter or deranged. Either way you're losing.

If Sony stay in the camera business (they have form in abandoning things; their main moneymaker is computer games) they will have to address their mount, originally designed for crop sensor. There’s a reason why this new camera shows no IBIS improvement.

B2N1 - Sure, *when* the pro Canon mirrorless "R1" and pro Nikon mirrorless "Z9" are launched, a more direct comparison can be made.

But right now, the most direct competitors are the 1Dxiii and D6.

Same target audience - pros shooting sports, wildlife & reportage. Same price band.

I'd consider the a1 to be the king of stills, due to its ability to shoot 50MP images at up to 30fps, with almost zero rolling shutter, and with the best EVF in the business, and the widest range of native MILC glass.

Sony has clearly listened to all the justified criticisms made about various a7 series models - ergonomics, menus, touchscreen implementation etc, and sorted them out.

The a1 is the new king, and is the camera that I would buy, if I could justify spending that much money.

Of course, it won't improve my photography, as that is down to my own skill level and experience, but it's the best specified FF camera, and quite probably the one that would be most enjoyable to use.

Welsh - Yes there are one or two areas where other cameras will outperform the a1, and IBIS is the obvious example.

But this is primarily an action camera, and that means that subject movement is far more likely to cause blur than camera shake. Sony IBIS in such situations is more than adequate IMO.

Don't be concerned about Sony or Canon pulling out of photography. It simply won't happen. They'll both survive long after several of the other manufacturers have folded.

I think you are comparing price more than anything else. But I reserve the right to be wrong. I won't attempt to do an direct comparison against the likes of Sony's own a7riv nor the other brands simply because as you should well know, the A1 hasn't even been properly vetted due to a variety of reasons. So how anyone can say King of anything is beyond me.

I beg to differ on whether a camera can improve one's photography. It's just a matter of how much. Composition, was that's so subjective although folks scream at the top of their lungs how great theirs and or someone else's is.

I truly believe the potential most enjoyable camera that's I seen so far is the new Fujifilm GFX 100S . At least for me. Bottom line, we now have a wide variety of choices with more to come. That's a good thing.

B2N1 - Fujifilm GFX100s is a great camera, I agree. And I respect your opinion. It will outperform the a1 in terms of resolution and dynamic range. For some people it will indeed be the new "king" of cameras.

But for me personally, the a1 will do just about everything I want a camera to do, and when fitted with a zoom or telephoto, it's a far more usable camera than the Fujifilm, due to the lesser weight and bulk.

We all have different needs and shoot different subjects, so I wouldn't expect my first choice to coincide with anyone else's. As long as we are all happy with the gear we use, and more importantly - happy with the photographs we take with it, that's all that really counts.

I can't wait to see the specs of the pro Canon R1, and the Nikon Z9. It's all largely academic to me (and to most people) because I can't justify the cost of a flagship camera, but it's great fun to watch all these new models appearing.

@Ric 360

"The stacked sensors capture a group of lines at one time, but still can have banding because the groups of lines are captured at different times."

A global shutter can still fail under artificial lights. It can fire when the light is pulsed off, producing a dark photo or one gigantic 'band'.

Canon released their pro sports camera last year. It was by necessity a DSLR. The likelihood of them producing a mirrorless camera with a global shutter is very slim. They were unable even to develop a custom 24mp sensor for the R6, but re-used the 1DXIII sensor instead.

There are those who prefer exactly what the OP wrote, namely a larger grip, a vertical grip, and a top display, and will gladly accept a larger body to get it.

Bigger is not always better, but nor is it always worse. The "more bulk" is not for nothing but to get exactly what the OP notes, along with more a more rugged body.

I think you wrote in a recent post about how often people make the mistake of assuming that their preference is universal for everyone else.

I understand that for many the smaller design is preferred, but please also understand that at least for some a larger more robust body would be appreciated.

@ Thoughts R Us: My guess is that "larger is more robust" is not always true. Also, how solid do a camera need to be, and at what cost?

Bigger is better for some photographers in some situations, eg, when using large telephoto lenses. But bigger isn't always better. I use bodies with and without top displays. I can work with either. It's all a matter of personal preference.

@Magnar: interesting question. I agree that not in every case does larger mean more durable...but in many cases it does.

But as noted by the OP, there are other reasons to want the larger body style, and if that allows for more protection to be built in then all the better.

There is no one size fits all approach. Obviously the companies cannot put out every camera in multiple sizes, so it is up to the camera companies to decide which trade offs to make and hope enough customers agree with them.

But in general pro's are used to working with larger equipment, esp since it's not just the camera, but the larger lenses, and now often other items like gimbals and external monitors added on.

@ Thoughts R Us: My guess is that Sony is much more interesting in new breeds of photographers, also female photographers, than those who are used with their bulky and heavy DSLR cameras. This is the older generation, the nostalgic photographers, those who are conservative and will be the last ones to change their habits.

In product life cycle theory, those are the least interesting group. They represent the past, and this small group just shrinks.

@Magnar W: Ouch...you touched on so many stereotypes in that post :) I won't get into those...but I will say that the problem with your life cycle theory is that it ignores the impact of smartphones.

So this newer younger generation is coming up primarily thinking of photography in terms of smartphones and many won't ever go into dedicated cameras. That is one reason why there is a shrinking camera market.

I would venture to say that it is those who have grown up thinking about cameras as dedicated equipment, before smartphones, who buy most of the camera equipment and keep the market going. Notice that this would also span a fairly large age group.

"is that it ignores the impact of smartphones "
Well... I would argue that smartphone market and usage is not that impactful on this end of the photo market. Yes, those playing with smartphone cameras at kids/beginners would have a different mindset. And as Magnar said, a more "full-specked", more "gadgety", even smaller camera would be more attractive.

Personally, I think Sony would benefit having the same guts in a larger, more rigged, probably better cooled as well body, and sell it for $1000 more, and will solve both market segments elegantly. But they probably thought of that and considered it is not worth doing or no worth yet.

@ Thoughts R Us: If you look at the remaining camera marked, my guess is that the life cycle theory holds water. That's where cameras are sold, since you can't sell cameras those who will not buy a camera anyway.

Just because the only ‘pro’ grade cameras have been super sized, doesn’t mean that that is what is always preferred. They have been large out of necessity in most cases. Isn’t it nice that *someone* offers a high performance body without being oversized? Why should all cameras look the same?

It’s interesting you bring up gimbals too, because they are an absolute pain in the neck with the full sized bodies.

A smaller camera certainly enables more usage than a larger camera does.

Sony has apparently been in contact with professional photographers to improve their products. Have the pros been asking for larger cameras? Smaller cameras? Integrated grip? Is Sony asking the wrong people?

All fair arguments in favor of the smaller body. And as someone noted, Sony probably asked some pro’s for their opinion.

But my guess is that there is no universal preference. So it will be interesting to see how the pro mirrorless market evolves.

Argue all you want, but Sony has a one size fits all plan for cameras over $2000.
The A7Siii for video, the A7Riv for landscapes, and the A1 for sports all have the virtually the same body and ergonomics.

I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing that having a 'professional' body in addition to the current one would be bad for consumers. There are those who want a large top LCD, and there are those that want a larger solid grip. And there are even those that prefer a built in vertical grip.
So why would anyone argue there should not be camera bodies for those people?

Other companies offer at least two sizes.

Sony is ignoring the photographs who want the larger style and forcing something else upon them if they don’t come out with a professional style body.

If the argument is give people what they want, then offer 2 or 3 sizes like Canon and Nikon.

Dont worry Ric360. Some camara companies dont have the technology available to put A1 performance into similar sized body without serious overheating problems. So they will have to make larger cameras, and your wish for large cameras will then be fullfilled, eventually 😊

Sony is obviously banking on there being enough people who want the capability that has traditionally been associated with large, dual-grip DSLRs—but without the associated bulk—to make the a1 a profitable endeavor. You can add a battery grip if you want that. Some photographers will no doubt prefer a camera with the second grip built in, but not all. Journalists, travel photographers, wildlife photographers… these are all people who might benefit from a smaller kit. Also, videographers who intend to use this in a rig would likely prefer to have a smaller body.

Not everyone actually *wants* a big, dual-grip DSLR, it's just that for the last decade or two that's what you've needed to use if you wanted the most capable camera available. If you want the best but in a smaller package, Sony has you covered.

Sony's problem is the traditional sports FF camera without the built in grip, without and LCD top plate, and without a large standard grip, normally sells for $2000-$4000 less.
And so all the review are comparing the A1 to the R5 instead of the 1DX3, and most reviews are saying the R5 is a bargain because it has competitive specs (according to Jared Polin), has a BETTER body (according to photographyblog, tech radar and other reviews), and even beats the A1 in a few other categories (IBIS)
If the A1 was priced at $4500 there would be no complaints, but its $2000 and missing all the things photographers expect in a camera over $5000.

The R5 is competitive specs-wise with the A7R IV. It's not competitive with the A1, it's just that a lot of people won't get much benefit from an A1 because their photography doesn't require its level of capability. The R5 is an excellent camera no doubt, but the A1 is really in a class of its own right now among mirrorless cameras.

Halftrack, I am only going by the reviews. Check TN, Fro, IR, and dozens of other sites .
They say the R5 is competitive (I am not saying better) with the A1 (their words not mine). In many cases not quite as good (readout and FPS), and in other cases better (IBIS, ergonomics).

Interestingly, many say the R5 has a better body with better ergonomics. (example from pb.com "Body and Design - We Prefer the Canon R5")
On this site in the comparison the R5 body is rated higher than the A7Riv (it won't let me compare the A7Siii to the R5 but its very similar)

I am not a fan of the one size fits all strategy from Sony, especially with a body that many sites say isn't as easy to use or as comfortable as other cameras. No matter which you like better you have to admit the ergonomics of the R6/R5/Z6ii/Z7ii/A1 are very similar. And yet one costs about $3000 more than the rest.

That Intel press release is just trying to cover their you know what because Apple silicon is eating their lunch.

As Ric notes, there are several real world user tests that show this.

And wait until Apple gets around to updating its even more powerful computers with the next generations of Apple silicon...they will be even farther ahead of Intel.

The next two gen of apple cpu will make intel cringe even more. For creative works Mac is starting to be default choice well ahead of windows as well. This combination of os and hardware will make it easy for customers to choose apple over other product and with these new chips nothing gets compromised.

If you ignore the ambassadors (ignore the Canon ones too), everyone seems to compare this to the R5.

It is a good comparison vs the R5.

IQ seems equal. At IR they struggle to see a resolution difference. They said the lens makes the difference.

Pros:
It has faster sensor readout
shoots 30 FPS.
Body may be a little stronger
Can shoot unlimited video (but not the quality of the R5)
Slightly smaller body.
Better EVF

R5 pros:
8K RAW for 25 minutes.
4K oversampled from 8K for 25 minutes.
Top LCD
Larger back LCD
Better IBIS
Larger grip with room for large fingers.

The jury is out on the AF, That bird AF didn't look reliable in the video. Maybe user error.

To me they both look good. Only one is close to affordable for most though.

The elephant in the room is the R1. Will it have the rumored global shutter? With it have a 20-25FPS mechanical shutter with the R5 sensor?
Iy should have no overheating problems and have a professional body like the 1DX3 and unlike these.

The key is what Ric 360 said: both the R5 and a1 look good; both are fantastic; I am sure owners of either will be thrilled with the results and the user experience.

But it is an accomplishment for Canon that they have a $3800 camera going head to head against a $6500 one.

Anytime anyone compares the two, the R5 is being given a huge compliment by default.

I am going to throw the A7Riv in to mix too. I've talked to birders and sports shooters who say 10 FPS is fast enough and anything faster is a waste and fills up their card.
It has a great 10 FPS mechanical shutter and a 61MP sensor. It does not compare for video, but it costs less than both the R5 and A1.

I just saw on the sidelines at the Super Bowl someone with a 7D or maybe 7Dii.
Those are very popular with sports photographers even though they are older.
They have large comfortable bodies and controls the pros are familiar with (the most important factor in a camera). And they use the greatest line of sports lenses ever made.

Everyone comparing the A1 to the R5. The A1 is Sony's top of the range pro body. Canon don't have a top of range mirrorless pro body yet, wait for the R1 to make direct comparisons. As some one said above, it is a testament to how good the R5 is that it is being compared to the A1, but it isn't quite in the same league. The R1 is going to have to be very good to compete with the A1. Anyway, I will probably never buy either of them.

Yes, exactly.
As Ric said, you can throw in the A7R 4 and that is cheaper than the R5.
It just depends on the needs ... can you compare it? sure. And if the performance of the more reasonable camera will suit you, no need to buy more expensive. Is the R5 comparable - as in provides in those areas where this is unique? Not.

If you need/want ES as good as mechanical one, there is only one camera that can do that. And probably the coming $9000 R1 will have to do it to be competitive :)

Well let’s look at the R6 vs the 1DX III then shall we? They use basically the same sensor and have many of the same features. Like all the pro bodies that have come before, you pay (quite a bit) more to eek out that little bit more performance. Canon have usually wrapped theirs up in a big hulking body which many use to justify the price difference. But because Sony have chosen to use a small frame there seems to be more confusion over product positioning. No doubt many of these features will make their way into lesser bodies. This isn’t where Sony begins and ends, this is a statement about the top, a pretty convincing one.

It too also differs away from the ‘pro body’ status quo by finally offering top tier resolution and non-gimped video. Which is not something we’ve seen before (1DX III is somewhat of an exception, but compared to the R5 is still not their top product and misses other key features).

It doesnt seem reasonable to me that the screen is the main concern. If so then do you think it is the screen that overheats the Canon R5 so badly?
And what about the A1 very high resolution and high fps viewfinder, wouldnt that then consume much power?

Nah, it has to be something else than the screen.

There is no excuse for the low quality LCD screen...it's not a matter of battery power.

The screen is not the cause. Certainly the superior EVF in the A1 would equalize the battery life if that were the case. But the Sony while using the EVF still destroys in battery life.

It has to be the power consumption of the sensor and/or the image processor. It’s the only thing left. And it makes sense when you analyze the numbers. Given the batteries have very similar capacities the Sony is simply doing the job while using much less of it. Generating much less heat in the process enabling longer recording times.

So either the Sony A1/A7/A9 imaging pipelines are very efficient, or the Canon R5 processor and sensor need much excessive power.
Perhaps Canon were so stressed to catch up on Sony ML performance that they had no choice but to sacrifice sensor efficiency. Or Canon simply didnt have the tech to make it efficient. I dont know which is worst, the R5 short battery life or the overheating. Perhaps the overheating.

@FuhTeng

No, the R5 isn't 'almost there'. The R5 sensor read-out is very fast for it's pixel density - about 1/60, which is twice the speed of the similar resolution A7rIII, but this camera has a readout speed of ≈1/240, which makes it almost as fast as a mechanical shutter. In fact it's possible to use the camera in electronic shutter with no penalty whatsoever, unlike the R5 or any other camera, even the A9/9II.

That is a significant achievement and would be lauded in the comments if it had been achieved by Canon or Nikon. As it is the camera is being damned with faint praise or being criticised at the pettiest level imaginable, over it's rear screen for example.

For all practical purposes the R5 is yes, almost there, with the a1...and in some cases right there and even better. But sure, if people instead of taking pictures want to fixate on the read speed. As usual, some make the case for Sony based on a spec sheet rather than real world use. But people when they take pictures don't go out and read the spec sheet.

But that's why so many reviewers are comparing the R5 to the a1, because they are very similar. And if a $3800 R5 is being compared with the $6500 a1 then that is a win for the R5.

@Rubber...
Oh I am sure that you would have been FULL of praise had it been a Canon or Nikon........🤣😂😂
The rear screen IS disappointing at this price - oh yes and the price....the A1 is 71% more expensive than the R5......to get 10 minutes more 8K and 30 rather than 20 fps - seems a tad dear.......

@Thoughts R Us
For a Camera that yet to be properly Vetted, some folks are really getting ahead of themselves. Tony Northrup has already hinted at some issues which he has apparently consulted with Sony on. So this is far from an settled, by Far King of the World issue.

2ovlov
Whats a 'tracing board'? Is that something you use a lot........?

so many people feel threatened already by the A1 that they need to be agressive against it. Why not be happy when a great camera comes along?

Why do so many people feel threatened already by the A1 being compared unfavourably with ANYTHING else that they need to be aggressive. Why not be happy that better alternatives exist for many people.....😊

@Kandid

If Canon or Nikon had made a camera that essentially obsoleted the mechanical shutter I would have praised it. That is an extremely significant achievement.

Unfortunately they haven't even come close to making a camera that matches the A9's 1/160 readout.

To be clear the mechanical shutter is not obsolete, and despite the hype still has benefits over an electronic shutter. One large one overlooked is the added cost of making stacked sensor like this.
If there was no reason for a mechanical shutter the camera would not have one, but even Sony realizes it is necessary.

@ Ric360 - yes there may be a place for mechanical shutters in low cost cameras for quit a bit longer.

But for the highest performance the mechanical shutter has already lost. There is no mechanical shutter that can keep up with latest ML cameras silent shutters fps. And now the silent shutter of the A1 is so fast you dont need to switch to mechanical in any scenario.

Dont worry, eventually there will be fast and reliable silent shutters comming to your favorite brand. It may take 2-3 years, but eventually it will happen.

Meanwhile if you want lower price silent shutter that still performs very well you have the A9. It sells for 2.900$ and still outperforms any CaNikon shutter, even those in the CaNikon 6500$ class.

No one has yet to show any photos that were taken with the a1 that could not be taken with other comparable cameras. Show me the difference. Show me the types of shots that require an a1, or at least an a9/a9II, that cannot be made with other cameras.

Otherwise when you talk superiority in specs, it's all academic and means nothing.

" Show me the types of shots that require an a1, or at least an a9/a9II, that cannot be made with other cameras. "

Same could be say other way round. That is what you are saying is that there is no point of buying canon over sony too.

Sony put a mechanical shutter on the $6500 camera. If it was not necessary they would have left it off.

Sony knew they could not sell this camera without a mechanical shutter.
If they had a 20 FPS mechanical shutter they would have put it on the camera too.

For 71% more (71%!) than an R5 I expected more that nerdo tin hat nonsense about sensor read out speed......

@zxaar: I've been saying for a while that technical differences among cameras are largely irrelevant and so one should choose based more on factors like ergonomic preferences and such.

Mike posted a link to an interview with 5 of the best pro sports photographers who will be covering the Super Bowl and one even shoots with a D780...which most would not consider to be a "pro" camera...yet he gets the shots and is a well renowned pro in his field. Yet imagine a debate on this forum over pro sports cameras...if someone even mentioned a D780 in the conversation they would be laughed at by most commenters here.

Really all of these debates over technical matters have gotten way overblown.

@Thought R Us

What you said is like saying Usain Bolt outruns me every single time bare feet. Hence, running shoes are way overblown. 🤣🤣🤣

@Fengshui
No - what he is saying is that Usain Bolt runs really fast in $3800 training shoes and is unlikely to go faster in $6500 training shoes just because they have solid gold spikes.....😊

@Fengshui
Agree with your last point - not sure what it has to do with A1.....?

@Ric 360

"To be clear the mechanical shutter is not obsolete, and despite the hype still has benefits over an electronic shutter."

There is no hype. The A1's sensor reads out at 1/240. Mechanical shutters fire @ 1/250-300. What are the benefits of the mechanical shutter?

“ I've been saying for a while that technical differences among cameras are largely irrelevant”

You sure liked to bang on about the technical differences with the R5. Still do.

“ No one has yet to show any photos that were taken with the a1 that could not be taken with other comparable cameras. Show me the difference. Show me the types of shots that require an a1, or at least an a9/a9II, that cannot be made with other cameras.”

Well assuming you need ~20fps+ (which is why you’d be looking at these cameras), then yeah, there’s a bloody big difference between 1/60th sensor readout and 1/240th in action photography.

@rubber...
If a mechanical shutter is redundant why is it on the gold plated A1 then ❓❓❓❓❓❓

Well the electronic shutter already matches pretty much every other mechanical focal plane shutter out there. But their new mechanical shutter goes beyond that, surpassing everyone else’s and their own electronic shutter. But assuming existing mechanical shutters were fine for you, this electronic one will be too. Unlike ANY other electronic (non-global) shutter that has come before.

It’s like saying ‘well if AF is so good, why do they bother having manual focus options’.

@Kandid

The mechanical shutter closes over the sensor when you remove the lens to protect it. It also offers 1/500 an 1/400 flash sync for high speed shooting.

@Kandid
I was responding to @TRU about that a single cameraman using D780 means A1 technical matters being way overblown.

Whether 1/240s e-shutter, 30 fps, etc are meaningful, depends on the situation. For those don’t need them, yeah, they are meaningless. But they can be invaluable for those need it.

I am sure no black out alone is a game changer. High speed photography has its place as well. All these requires high fps e-shutter.

And A1 provides a high resolution solution for the above situation for the first time. That’s what to do with A1.

@fengshui
Weeeellll - it’s not a choice between 30fps and nothing is it - it’s a choice between 20 and 30 FPS.....increasingly marginal....

@elisam, rubber...
So - mechanical shutters are redundant unless they are in a Sony.....🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣. Typical...

Erm, well because Sony are the only ones with a usable electronic shutter. Plus they are the only ones with a mechanical shutter with sync speeds of 1/400th / 1/500th sec. IF there was this kind of electronic shutter in say an R5, then that definitely would be redundant. Once other brands do too, it will be equally redundant.

Just like Canon users didn’t want IBIS until Canon had IBIS, then it was the best thing ever and way better than Sony.

Redundant is probably not the right word (I didn’t use it before), more like unnecessary in 99% of use cases, so long as you have an electronic shutter with similar capabilities. Once electronic shutters are working at 1/500th and 1/1000th then there will be almost certainly no use for a mechanical one.

“ the A1 is 71% more expensive than the R5......to get 10 minutes more 8K and 30 rather than 20 fps - seems a tad dear.......”

The 1DX III is 71% more expensive for no 8K, only 20MP, no IBIS, barely faster, no articulating screen and so on.

The Sony records 8K for well over an hour. Does the R5? 30fps vs 20fps... wow and I remember when Canon / Nikon fanboys would gush over an extra 1 or 2 fps in a top end camera. Like wait 4 years and get 16fps vs 14fps. SO worth the wait. But because it’s a Sony an extra 10fps suddenly has no value.

Oh and let’s not forget the gushing about the R5 doing 20fps (electronic with bad rolling shutter mind) over the A7R IV doing what, 12 or something? Yeah I’m sure you thought that was pretty important, when it was a ‘win’ for Canon.

*sigh*

Since you mentioned the R5.

The R5 is still the #1 mirrorless camera on Amazon.
Huge win for Canon. Its been #1 at Amazon and Map camera for months.

The A1 is the best marketing campaign for the R5. A few months back $3900 was said to be too much to pay for a camera, but now countless articles are pointing out that the R5 is a bargain.

https://www.dailyadvent.com/news/bc1e75824b80a71a9cd9b2db6adfb41f-The-Sony-A1-makes-the-Canon-EOS-R5-look-like-a-bargain

@Elisam

Full scale deflection for the hypocrisy needle, with these people.

@Ric 360

The R5 is not even in the top hundred:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Mirrorless-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/430660031/ref=zg_bs_pg_1?_encoding=UTF8&pg=1

The best selling FF milc is the A7III at #8.

@feng
For 71% more cash I would expect it would.......

@Elisam
The only ‘sigh’ is the sad realisation creeping in among even the diehards that $6500 is toooo much for such marginal (real I grant you) improvements...

Check Tech Radar, IR, PhotographyBlog, and other reviews.
"Canon EOS R5 is a Bargain" is the general conclusion.

What Sony has done is tell everyone the R5 is a bargain and their camera is overpriced.

btw check those reviews most say the R5 has a better body too.

R5 is overheating junk. Thats what A1 shows.

So the R5, the best selling mirrorless camera for the past couple months, and the one several sites say is a bargain compared to the A1, is overheating junk?

Is this the same R5 this site named Product of the year and best camera for portraits, and best high resolution camera?
That R5 you say is junk?
Doesn't that say more about your bitterness than the camera?

Anyway you are entitle to that opinion. zxaar says DPR's product of the year and the best selling mirrorless camera on Amazon is junk.

unfortunately there is none alternative with that readout speed combined with the IQ. There isnt even an alternative with double the readout time 😊
But in 3 years there could potentially be a CaNikon alternative. Lets hope they catch up.

Canon brought us 8k first to FF, Sony has just now caught up. Sony brought us an FF camera that is nearly 3 Grand more than what Nikon and or Canon is offering. So no, it won't be that hard to catch up. Unfortunately for Sony.

Canon hasnt even caught up with A9 (2017) sensor speed 😊

The A9 does not offer 8k nor the now legendary Bird Eye AF of the Canon R5 plus it's better image stabilization. Let me know when it does.

Having unreliable 8k on one card slot doesn't solve the problems with a slow sensor unfortunately. If you cant trust the silent shutter then you cant. Wobble wobble.

When the A9 catches up, let me know.

and if you truly want reliable 8k there is now the A1 that can record 8k on two card slots and doesn't need to do as R5 sitting on the bench an hour panting from overheating after a clips of 8k.
Thats just an extra A1 bonus on top of all the fast silent shutter benefits 😊

@BackToNature1

The second FF stacked sensor to hit the market three years after the A9 is also a Sony product. Nilsjohan is pointing out that there has been zero progress amongst Sony's competitors with this technology. Not sure why you're talking about IBIS or 8K.

@nilsjohan
If you want 8k, legendary Bird Eye AF, or better IBIS, that would be the Canon R5 as opposed to the A9. Thanks for agreeing.

If all people did was talk about stacked sensors and read speed, then sure the a1 shines. But last I looked a camera was more than that. And photographers when they go out to shoot don't care about reading spec sheets.

It's funny how the only defense one can offer for the a1 relates to specs that most people cannot even relate to.

Once you start arguing from arcane specs, you've lost the argument. Show me tangible differences in output. Show me where the a1 gets shots that others cannot. The we can talk.

For instance, look at the Fuji GFX 100s gallery and the a1 gallery. The Fuji clearly has the better IQ. Now the a1 is still a fine camera, but let's not pretend it's best in everything. And with the Fuji one can clearly point to images and see a real difference without resorting to quoting a spec sheet.

@ TRU - sorry, I assumed it was well known the advanteges of fast sensors. It has been descibed many times also by DPReview: You can always rely on the silent shutter, never have to switch to mechanical, no banding, vertical lines remain vertical, less wearing down moving mechaninal parts, less vibrations and shutter shocks, higher fps, you can improve many aspects of a camera with SW upgrades over time but not the shutter so its increadibly useful to get a fast silent shutter in your camera platform from the beginning, etc

Its pretty telling that you need to compare the worlds fastest camera A1 with the latest MF camera to try to find something where its challenged 😊
Of course you can take good pictures with the Fuji, assuming neither the cameraman nor the objects moving, assuming there is a reasonable lens available for each job (tele? fast AF? 3rd parties? stealthy?), etc. So for a niche set of scenarios the Fuji can deliver really good IQ.

@nils..
So for a niche set of scenarios the 100mp medium format Fuji is best but for everything else the 50MP more expensive smaller sensor Sony is best - not biased at all are you ? 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣😂😂

@Thoughts R Us

"It's funny how the only defense one can offer for the a1 relates to specs that most people cannot even relate to."

No one is 'defending' the A1 - it doesn't need defending. It's clearly an exceptional product.

There are lots of people trying to trash it, like you and Kandid and others. Kandid has never had much in his locker beyond a tremor in his emoji finger, but you have plumbed new levels of nonsense to do it - calling a 50mp sensor that reads out at almost the same speed as a mechanical shutter an 'arcane spec' for example. It is a hugely significant achievement that would cause you to dissolve into a gibbering wreck, were it a Canon achievement.

@Nilsjohan: I have news for you: you don't need the fastest AF in town to capture most things that move. I've used the GFX 100 on slow moving birds and it performed wonderfully. It wouldn't be my first choice for high speed action but it can work. And of course for landscapes, portraits, etc...the Fuji medium format has a look above FF.

I can just as easily say that the Fuji is best for most situations, since most photographers are not photographing fast action. I only brought up the Fuji because it was released at the same time as a1 and has almost the same price, actually $500 less.

And for you and Rubber Dials, I have news for you: when most photographers are out shooting, no one is thinking of whether this is using mechanical or e shutter...only if it gets the results.

I seem to remember some complaining about the high price of the Canon and Nikon pro bodies in those discussions. I think anytime you have a camera with this sort of price you will have people complaining about the price.

But there is this: the 1DXIII and D6 seem like they should be more expensive than the other cameras, due to their build quality. People can understand that. They are like tanks. They are like those big trucks you can buy for a premium and no one expects them to be priced like a Honda Civic.

I think Sony could have and should have taken this new product line as an opportunity to upgrade their body into something a bit stronger and more refined. That wouldn't have meant the same size as Canon/Nikon pro bodies but something a bit more substantial.

Not only would that have given it more durability but it would have also signaled to the market that this is a camera more worthy of that high price tag.

Bigger is better? That’s a pretty shallow view. I’m glad Sony doesn’t prescribe to this belief. You can keep your 1DXIII.

@Mike: I would say that sometimes yes, sometimes no (if “bigger” = integrated grip ergonomics benefit). However: in a certain line of work, tougher is better. Always was. But more about this in a future episode. Now it cannot be done - A1 is a rookie, no “combat” experience.😉

Yes I guess if an A1 is in a collision with a 1DXIII the 1DXIII with its higher weight would have an advantage.

What do you mean no one knows?
The A9 has been out for nearly 4 years? Where are all the reports of them falling apart?

I think you have an Oedipous Complex.

@TRU

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4456565

Here you can see various reports of REAL users experience for various Sony cameras. Not just false and misleading information that you are trying to spread. I can provide more but I know that your arrogance will prevent you from admitting.

I use mine in extreme hot conditions 50+ degrees Celsius, 80+% humidity and dusty weather without any issues.

Not sure which reviews you were watching. Pretty much everyone is lauding the buffer clearing when using fast CF-A cards.

And with the only apparent limitation now being starting a video or changing the card or battery while the buffer is writing this does seem to be a non issue going forward.

What`s that got to do with Compressed RAW ? ....... Canon had Optical stabilizers long before the Dynax 7D arrvied on the scene which were far more effective than Minolta's IBIS - Or Sonys Current IBIS come to that .....

Optical viewfinders are problematic with IBIS, as the viewfinder doesn't show you what the sensor is capturing (up to 10-15% off). Better for lower-end cameras not people who frame carefully.

@AdamT

You were talking about things you 'can't believe' so I added a thing I couldn't believe. Here's another one; neither Canon or Nikon has ever made a professional camera with a tilt screen.

@1Bwana1

Okay, the Sky is Blue.

@1Bwana1
Nonsense. The average wage in the US is about $50k. Business class travel and this camera are reserved for the well heeled and businesses (clue is in the name). To suggest it’s ‘not much money’ is laughably self serving. Seemingly an excellent camera of course but about $1500 overpriced. I will retract the overpriced if it is as robust as other cams at this price and pro action shooters want the 50MP.

Kandid -go back and reread what he wrote.

@Eric
It was a struggle - but yes I managed to reread his ‘let them eat cake’ post .....👍
Anything else❓