DPReview TV: Sony a1 review

https://karsh.org/photographs/georgia-okeeffe/

So Animal eye AF does NOT work during video. Some are now receiving their A1 cameras and confirming this. See the Sony forum for more. It's not on the A7Siii, but some thought the A1 would get it.
Maybe a FW update will come later.

Feb 28, 2021permalink

4sofnature

The hypothetical cost of A1 based on the specs of three specialty cameras
= 1.5x A9ii (based on burst rate and rolling shutter improvement) + 1x A7S3 (based on video spec) + 0.82x A7R4 (based on megapixel count)
= 1.5x $4500 + 1x $3500 + 0.82x $3500
= $13120
Therefore $6500 is NOT overpriced for a camera of such versatility.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

Fred Mueller

Karsh pressed the shutter release one time.

Feb 13, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

In our culture there is this tendency to "shoot the messenger".
"Shooting the messenger" is a metaphoric phrase used to describe the act of blaming the bearer of (what they consider) bad news.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger

And so Tony Northrup just released a video showing the R5 AF usually out performed the A1 and scored higher in their tests (they did give big props to the 30FPS though). Animal and Bird AF were especially effective with the R5.
I have a feeling Tony is going get a lot of grief.
I do look forward to more reviews. The more the better.

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

His own wife had her R5 overheated and became useless. If that did not matter i think this matters nothing too.

Feb 11, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

"useless"? It still took stills and shot 4K video. And its mostly a stills camera, so for stills was fully functional.
Are you think of older Sony cameras that "brick" for a period of time when they overheated?

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

You can complain about the Northrup's all you want, but they have the A1 and R5 in hand and have shot both side by side.

The summary of the video was that they both thought the R5 AF tracking was better for hitting the iris in humans and better for animals and much better for birds. They looked at the actual images at 100% and the R5 hit focus more often enough that it was clearly better in their opinion. They both agreed that 30 fps was amazing from the A1. The A1 was very responsive and should allow for good cropping as a sports camera. They can't open A1 raw files yet, so no image quality assessments.

I can't wait to see what Canon has in store for the R1 which is rumored for later this year. Early leaks from reputable sites quote Canon insiders saying that the R1 will have a “groundbreaking” new AF system, above the EOS R5/EOS R6.

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

Kona Mika, Canon Rumors said there is a FW update coming for the R5 in the next month. Will there really be one? Will it improve AF even more? It is said to add video formats and improvements. Will they improve AF more?

Feb 11, 2021permalink

Of course you'd think that the Northrups were a reliable source of information, lol

It makes perfect sense.

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

roweraay

Tony jumped the gun, and came out with a "first impressions" even before the embargo was lifted.......clearly for the all-important clicks/likes on youtube. The "1st impressions" was clearly designed to make the A1 look bad, or came out that way due to the rushed/botched video creation job they did. I suspect it was a botched/rushed, poorly edited video creation.

On the surface they're pretending to bring up the "Pros/Cons" of the camera, while really "damning it with faint praise", even when it comes to the "pros". Their autofocus "test"......did they validate if it is a camera problem or a lens problem (by repeatedly getting front-focus via multiple lenses) before rushing to declare it as a camera problem ? Total hit-job and I certainly won't blame Sony if they are denied any gear in the future for such "reviews".

Certainly not a credible review source anymore, and throughout the A1 introduction saga, they have not played nice or fair.

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

@Bank Shot, give me a link to any other side by side video or review of the A1 and R5 where they photograph people, pest and birds in flight. Do you think the Northrups lied, are intentionally misleading people, or are incompetent?

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

Is there any other argument against Tony's results besides "Tony - Bad"?

Feb 11, 2021permalink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger

What the Northrups did is irrelevant, because they aren't a reliable source of information.

It's like looking for the truth on Fox News.

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

Feb 11, 2021permalink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fake_news

Feb 11, 2021permalink

roweraay

Does the vast number of other reviews that got released after the embargo, echo what the Northrups are saying ? Does it show a trend ? The Northrups are non-credible shills at the moment, and I am guessing after the Sony legal guys got in touch with them for breaking the embargo, they are now on a "scorched earth" course with the A1, since I doubt they'd get any future gear to review.

Feb 11, 2021permalink

Mr Bolton

This is all pretty funny from the POV of someone who shoots neither system, but has been watching 'Sony' Northrup shill the Big S' products for ages. Now he, kinda by accident, finds the R5 a lot more competent in comparison than one would think, for $2700 less money than the A1.. and Sony fans are LOSING THEIR MINDS.

Fro Knows also did a pretty thorough A1 first test and noted the 30fps limitations-electronic shutter, compressed RAW or JPEG. Still plenty impressive, but for highest quality you'd want lower FPS.

I'm waiting for a proper shootout between the two cameras.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

The Northrups, Jared Polin, and Gordon Laing have all done some comparison tests with the R5 and a1 on various factors and have found the two cameras to be very close in performance and output.

We will find out more once the a1 ships and people have time to do more comparisons...but you can't hide from reality: the a1 makes the R5 look good given the cost differential.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vguyofpy16Y

I think Nikon and Canon can be pleased at the early A1 reviews. I don't think they were surprised or caught off guard by the A1. Basically the A1 is faster, which is to be expected. Which isn't anything to downplay, but there wasn't any revolutionary new secret feature.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

Avatar480234

This is what Mark Galer, an infinitely more competent photographer than the Northrup celebrity couple has to say in refuting their incompetence.
Link:

Feb 12, 2021permalink

@Avatar480234, I didn't watch the video link you posted yet, and I will.

However, the video if from "Mark Galer's Alpha Creative Skills" how on earth could that possibly be objective? He has "Alpha" in his channel name.

A quick web check and he is a Sony Alpha Ambassador, paid by Sony. he may be a great photographer, but how on earth can he be unbiased?

He has merch, and a complete web presence that looks for attention like any typical web influencer.

The first comment on the video, when I viewed it, from a Sony kool-aide drinker:

"’Ive been avoiding all the click bait videos out there & waiting for Mark’s honest review - the only reviews I trust when it comes to Sony - only trust a reviewer who knows Sony, knows how to set them up & is also a decent photographer! As always Thx Mark!"

Wow a video from a paid Sony reviewer, I'll bet it is objective!

Feb 12, 2021*permalink

roweraay

I would certainly watch Mark Galer, disregarding him being a Sony ambassador, since by and large he is a fair reviewer, and even when he's dissing an aspect of the product, he does not hold back anything, but does it in a non-disagreeable way. Gordon Laing, Gerald Undone, Dan Watson, Manny Ortiz are also reviewers of a similar caliber, but focusing on other facets of the product review.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

Ric r5 overheated and was not responsive. If his opinions count then r5 is useless. Thats your guy showing how bad r5 is.

Feb 12, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

When the R5 gets the overheated error, you can turn it off and on and shoot 4K video and stills all day. The only two things you cannot do are shoot over sampled 4K and 8K.
I think you are confusing the R5 with the old Sonys. If you turned them off and on or removed the battery and put it back, you still could not do anything until they cooled down.
With the R5 you can always shoot 4K (line skipping) video and any type of stills.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

Wildkits

Yes, Mark Galer is a generally credible guy, but there were two things that stuck me about his "review".

First, he totally dismissed the alleged "eyelash" focusing complaint about the camera. He may or may not be right that this is a non-issue, but we all have seen Alpha camera shots that focus on eyelashes rather than the eyeball.

The second point, was his almost apologetic recognition of the A1's problem focusing on small birds in flight with the 200-600. I'm glad he admitted there was a problem, but don't apologize for it.

Feb 15, 2021permalink

"he totally dismissed the alleged "eyelash" focusing complaint about the camera"

He dismissed it as a serious issue for all cameras, not just the a1. It's not just an Alpha issue, look at the Nikon z50/1.2 pics that Nikon shot for instance.

I didn't see him apologizing for anything, there is plenty of footage of eyeaf working on small birds in flight. See the Alex Phan examples on Youtube.

Feb 15, 2021*permalink

Wildkits

I think the EyeAF works pretty well on the Canon. It would be nice to see a comparison.

But nevermind. That's a secondary concern for me.

Thanks for the link to the Alex Phan video. Very impressive stickiness, but I did not see any sample images. He claimed that he had some in a fb feed, but I don't have time to search. Do you have a link to a gallery of a1/200-600 shots? It's great if the camera can track, but who cares if the images are mush. Lol, I need to decide within the next two weeks whether to keep or cancel my preorder, and the 200-600mm would be my goto lens.

Feb 16, 2021*permalink

Take a look at the a1 data on fredmiranda.com, there are links to a1 pics and plenty of discussion about it.

I did see some questions about a1/200-600 functionality, but we really won't know until people start using it. I'd suggest that if you are in doubt, use an a9 with the 200-600, that combo rocks.

Feb 16, 2021permalink

Wildkits

I've heard that as well, but I really want 45-50MP for cropping purposes.

Thanks for pointing me to Fredmiranda. I'll take a look.

Feb 16, 2021permalink

Amen to that, I really miss cropability with the a9/200-600, even with the 1.4x tc.

Feb 16, 2021permalink

@Bank Shot, "he totally dismissed the alleged "eyelash" focusing complaint about the camera". I agree he "dismissed" it as a non issue and didn't dispute it as truth or not. Many people "dismiss" that you need to push shadows 6 stops, doesn't stop trolls from arguing that it is the most critical function of a camera.

His argument wasn't if the A1 missed the focus, but that you don't need a DOF that narrow. I never shoot with a DOF that narrow, but If the R5 can hit that DOF more often the A1, then the R5 is better at it. It might have something to do with the dual pixel focus which can focus on any pixel, while the A1 has fewer AF points and there may not be one exactly over the iris every time. This is something that should be tested more.

In fact he didn't really shoot down any of the Northrups' claims.

Feb 16, 2021*permalink

cxsparc

@Ric 360: You have a type there:
"I have a feeling Tony is going get a lot of grief."
should read:
"I have a feeling Tony is going get a lot of clicks."

Good grief :-), Tony is always click-baiting controversial stuff, wake up, he and his family LIVE from this channel. Taking TN as a source of reliable information is pathetic:
Don't you remember that he claimed that Sony would introduce a CURVED sensor with the A1? What a drivel.
Don't you remember when he posted on the Panasonic and it's great AF when you could see in the video the AF failing miserably many times?

What better topic than to combine the new Sony A1 and link it to the R5 while messing up the test? The resulting clash of Sony fans with the Canon fan boys eagerly waiting for an opportunity for revenge when they were shamed by the overheating feature of the R5?

That's like mixing ingredients of a nuclear bomb. Don't believe it? Check clicks on youtube of his post. That will earn Tony the next rate for his Beamer :-)

Feb 16, 2021permalink

@cxsparc so Tony's key points was the R5 focused better on the human iris, better on pets, and way better on BIF. He also said you don't get 30fps when tracking AF. But he is click bait and shouldn't be trusted. However, Mark Galer didn't disprove or contradict any of this.

Mark merely said why have a shallow DOF? where the iris and eyebrow aren't both in focus. He didn't even test the R5 or A1 in this regard. His video clearly shows the A1 not always shooting 30 fps. The release priority is a common feature on a lot of cameras, including Canon. He was unable to get more than 26.6 fps with AF tracking, even with changing release priority. He got 30 fps when he turned off AF tracking, and went focus area wide. He then shot a large raptor up close at a sanctuary hardly a realistic 30 fps BIF test.

I'm sure Mark is doing quite nice promoting his merch, getting plenty of clicks.

Feb 16, 2021*permalink

#Kona Mike - "Mark Galer didn't disprove or contradict any of this."

No, that's wrong, Galer proved that the a1 could do 30fps, when the Northrups claimed that it couldn't be done, that they were in communication with Sony to figure out the "problem", blah blah.

The Northrup "problem" was with their own incompetence, for one thing they started out not using focus priority release, every sports shooter knows that release is the correct setting. Mark Galer made that very clear, I guess that you must have been asleep during that part of the video.

There were also questions about whether or not they had updated the lens firmware, the FE70-200 for instance needed an update to be fully compatible at 30fps.

Alex Phan also proved that the a1 could do 30fps with BIF.

Posting the Northrup garbage as any kind of a credible source just isn't valid.

Feb 16, 2021*permalink

@Bank Shot, Galer was only able to get 26.6 fps with AF tracking, even with release priority set for max fps. Galer technically did 30 fps "BIF", but not really what anyone would consider BIF. He shot a sanctuary (up close) raptor (big) at 30 fps using area wide AF and not AF tracking. The pics he showed of "BIF" were what look to me to be a mostly stationary raptor catching some thrown food. Which to me hardly qualifies as BIF, and is nothing close to what the Northrups' were doing.

Not being able to do AF tracking and 30 fps is news worthy and not click bait and Galer didn't disprove anything. Sony marketing material say 30 fps, I didn't see any "*" saying you needed to be in a special AF mode. I'm sure it can do 30 fps shooting stationary subject, but that isn't what people think when they hear 30 fps.

Does the A1 track a bird's eye at 30 fps? it doesn't seem to.

Feb 16, 2021*permalink

#Kona Mike - No, that's wrong again, Galer got the full 30fps when he switched to wide area focus mode, as the video clearly stated.

You obviously know nothing about Sony, and it's confusing you. Wide area focus mode tracks just as well as using real-time tracking. I know that because I've owned the a9 since it first came out in 2017, before Sony real-time tracking was invented, and I've tracked with wide area focus mode in thousands of sports pics. BIF people sometimes track with wide area mode when the background makes it easier.

The Northrups are idiots who don't know how to use Sony, and they don't even know how to use Canon MILC either, judging by their past videos. The Northrups claimed a lot lower a1 framerate than 26.5fps, they were waaay off the mark in part because they weren't using release priority.

I expect that the 25/26.5fps vs. 30fps disparity that Galer documented will be tweaked in a firmware release.

The Alex Phan videos back all that up.

Feb 16, 2021*permalink

@Bank Shot, I obviously know nothing about Sony and wish I was a great as you think you are!

FACT, the A1 needs a certain auto focus mode and settings to hit 30 fps.

The Northrups were correct, it wont do bird tracking it won't work in in 30 fps. The Galer video backs this up. The basic BIF example from the Galer video doesn't prove anything about the 30 fps or BIF tracking. The Northrups actually went out and were shooting in the wild, relying on the tracking and the R5 was better. I'm sure great pros will get great shots with either, but non-pros will need the tracking, which wont be 30 fps on the A1.

Feb 16, 2021permalink

Mr Bolton

It sounds like maybe the 30fps is their marketing catchphrase feature. Like 8K on the R5 (esp. before the firmware updates) it's there and it somewhat works, but there are caveats. Maybe just kick it back down to 20fps and be happy?

Feb 16, 2021permalink

#Kona Mike - "non-pros will need the tracking, which wont be 30 fps on the A1"

No, that's wrong again, Mark Galer already proved that the a1 tracks at 30fps in wide area af mode. You are confused because you don't know anything about Sony.

Funny how you refuse to comment on the Alex Phan data that I told you to look at, he is a real BIF shooter, he likes the a1 for BIF, and yes he got 30fps:

"It was shooting with 200-600 in CH+ mode (30 FPS)" https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1687493/0

"I'm happy to report that it [bird eyeaf] works as advertised" https://www.facebook.com/people/Alex-Phan/100007589355024

"I was skeptical about this new feature [bird eyeaf] but after trying it out, it turns out pretty fun to use and the most important thing is IT WORKS" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwzVy75W1-0

Mark Galer got 30fps, Alex Phan got 30fps, it's not arguable.

Feb 16, 2021*permalink

@Blank Shot, are you kidding me? that first link in your last post shows how bird AF is crap. It can get a stationary bird's eye then lose it, but is mostly a grid of flashing squares over a moving bird. It isn't taking any photos, so no FPS.

second link sends me to Facebook and I don't have a login so I can see anything.

third link same video as first. Ha, is that your proof?

Feb 17, 2021*permalink

#Kona Mike - Congrats on proving that you aren't a BIF shooter, although it was pretty obvious from the start.

The quotes that i posted, with links, prove that your claims are wrong:
"It was shooting with 200-600 in CH+ mode (30 FPS)"

"I'm happy to report that it [bird eyeaf] works as advertised"

"I was skeptical about this new feature [bird eyeaf] but after trying it out, it turns out pretty fun to use and the most important thing is IT WORKS"

You got nothing.

Feb 17, 2021*permalink

@Bank Shot, great proof. lol.

Feb 17, 2021permalink

#Kona Mike - It's proof from a respected and accomplished BIF shooter who has used the gear in question.

Lets see your credentials... oh wait, you don't have any ;-)

Feb 17, 2021*permalink

@Bank Shot a pro BIF photographer can do it with center point DSLR AF. That video "proof" is lame that the A1 bird tracking works better than the R5, and it certainly doesn't show any proof of 30 fps while tracking. At least Galer gave fps amounts.

You crap all of the Northrups and their video, but the video you post is crap, the tracking was crap. I'm sure the A1 can do better than that video shows. Look how bad it tracks the standing bird in the first 5 seconds. The first flying bird has a flashing grid of boxes that try to, but can't quite, stay over the bird. is that Sony bird tracking?

Feb 17, 2021*permalink

@Kona Mike - No, you are wrong again, Alex Phan posted a screen grab of first/last EXIF sequence proving that he got 30fps:

"...so we have "non-sense noise" about A1 can't get 30 fps. I tried couple times and get the result pretty consistent. So here it is.
AF-C, CH+, Release priority, compressed RAW.
A1 + 600GM
5 seconds internal from 33,34,35,36,37 with total of 148 images. That would give out about 29.6 fps.
I can't upload the image here so i have to link back to my FB. My apology."
https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=2891515781111372&set=a.1957445131185113

You have repeatedly attacked and tried to discredit the words of a well-respected BIF shooter, while failing to offer up any of your own credentials. You don't shoot Sony and you don't shoot BIF, so I don't see where you are qualified to be questioning anything.

Feb 17, 2021*permalink

@Bank Shot, so tell me was that bird tracking focus mode?

Feb 17, 2021permalink

Sony real-time af tracks whatever object it locks on to, whether it's automatically locked on or you tell it what to lock on to. If it finds a face it'll automatically move the focus point to the face, and from there to eyeaf, if it finds an eye in the face, human or animal. You don't have to manually put the focus box on the face, like you would with a joystick.

Feb 17, 2021*permalink

so he wasn't using the A1's new bird tracking feature. He was using the general center area tracking, kind of like the DSLR equivalent of single center point. The Northrups were comparing bird tracking AF of the A1 to the R5 and they were right you can't get 30 fps from the A1 in bird tracking mode and the R5 had better bird tracking than the A1.

Feb 17, 2021permalink

cxsparc

@Kona: Let's try some logic here :-)
Tony claims 30 fps Bird tracking doesn't work & R5 tracks birds better.
Others demonstrate they can get 30 fps with bird tracking with A1
Consequence: Either Tony ( :-) ) or his gear are defective.

If you choose to use Tony's claims that have been proven to be unreliable due to either lack of tech competence or intention to click-bait with fake news - so be it. It is a free world, and if that makes you feel better about life.

But please understand that others may prefer pursuing a more difficult life following the line of reason and truth.

Here a direct quote from (y)our beloved Tony:
"Curved sensors are coming... TOMORROW! Sony's camera LEAKED" from 26.1.2021 on YT. He didn't even bother to take that video down or post a comment excusing him for claiming such bs - because it has already been viewed 131k times!

En'uff said:
Barrett Strong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeVx1C73o8k
Money - that's what I want!
:-)

Feb 17, 2021permalink

@cxsparc, shooting af wide is not bird tracking. Having a grid of center area AF points flash on and off as they roughly AF on the central item is not bird tracking. When the box smoothly follows along with tracked item, that is tracking.

Feb 17, 2021permalink

cxsparc

@Kona: It does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwzVy75W1-0

You still don't understand Sony AF. AF wide simply means that the AF system will try to acquire target within the WIDE area with the settings you chose. When tracking has engaged, it will follow the subject even outside of that area.
When bird eye af tracking has lost the target (temporarily) it will switchback to normal phase AF onto the approximate target and try to require eye AF.
As shown in the clip.
P.S. Phan: "there are wide/zone in some of the shot. What you see there is not Center. It is Flexible spot Large. Also, if you shot wildlife long enough and GOOD at panning, you don't use zone or wide. We narrow down the spot."

Feb 17, 2021*permalink

https://youtu.be/kwzVy75W1-0?t=14

if this is bird AF, then it isn't that great

it may "track" but it doesn't seem to track the eye for more than 1% of the time.

Feb 17, 2021permalink

#Kona Mike - "shooting af wide is not bird tracking"

It's called "BIF", not "bird tracking" and not "bird af". Demonstrating once again that you've never done it.

And yes, wide area af is commonly used for BIF, and no, Sony af is not like DSLR af, there isn't any single point af, we are talking about over 700 af points.

The only thing you are proving here is that you don't know anything about Sony.

Feb 17, 2021*permalink

Adrian Harris

Will there be a review we can read at some point ?

Feb 11, 2021permalink

DPR always produces written reviews as well, but those typically take longer. They are done by other staff at DPR, and usually delve a bit more into the details. But those do take longer to create.

Of course we also don't know the availability of the review units. Many others report that they were only given a few days with the review unit and then had to ship it back. So DPR may have to wait to get another review unit and have it long enough to do their detailed tests.

Feb 11, 2021permalink

just pat

Are the dials and buttons the same as the A7Riv?
Are they the same on the A7Siii?
Is anything larger on the Alpha 1?

Feb 11, 2021permalink

Zoa

This is a $3250 A7R5 with a stacked sensor.
It's the same body layout as the A7R4 with the A7Siii updates like menus and VF.
I find it hard to believe a stacked sensor doubles the price. But maybe they are expensive to make?
The A7R4 pixel bins 4k video too. Has the same IBIS. But has a higher resolution sensor and going by the A9ii higher dynamic range.
Maybe Sonys plan is to make the A7R5 look like a steal at half the price? This one looks very over priced doesn't it.

Feb 10, 2021permalink

le_alain

Perhaps you forget many things ...;
Same was said with A9 being an A7II ...

Feb 11, 2021permalink

The a1 is a fantastic camera, but no doubt there's significant profit margin in it. Nothing wrong with that....hey, good for Sony if they can get that price.

But another way to look at it: it's the same body as the $3500 a7sIII, with the stacked sensor and extra Bionz XR processor...there is no way that those two components cost any extra $3000.

But again it's what the market will pay. Some existing Sony shooters will gladly pay for that, and of course, they always have the contract with the AP.

I wonder how many the AP will buy and at what cost will Sony sell it to them at? One thing about having a press agency under contract, is that you need to price high so you still make a nice profit when selling to them at a nice discount. And again, this is not a criticism of Sony. It's just business.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

A900user

Do not forget the 1/400eme flash synchro speed. Usually, the max is 1/250 or 1/300e... It's amazing to have this feature. Plus the 1/200e in electronic mode..

Feb 13, 2021permalink

Reading through the comments the one point that makes sense is Sony will later release and updated version in a professional body. This one is the small consumer or enthusiast body. They layout is the same as cameras with different uses instead of on designed for professionals.
Maybe a new body will get past the 5.5 stop IBIS barrier Sony ran in to a few years back.
Is there a vertical grip for it? That would help some, but then it’s going be $7000 with tax.

Come to think of it Sony has problem here. Will the professional model with the professional body be $7500 or $8000?

Feb 10, 2021*permalink

What is not professional about this model? Is there anything that a "PRO" can't do with it?

Feb 10, 2021permalink

Regardless of how one appraises it as a "pro" model, the a1 is it for Sony...they are not going to come out with another version with a beefed up body. If they had wanted to do that they would have done it with this model.

Feb 10, 2021permalink

Avery already knows there is a grip for it. It’s been available for some months already. (If not a year.)

Feb 11, 2021permalink

What a strange coincidence, they are all singing the same song ;-)

Avery Robins
Joined on Dec 10, 2020

LarryJones
Joined on Dec 10, 2020

Ric 360
Joined on Dec 11, 2020

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

Yes. I noticed that. They all say the same thing. And coincidentally they all registered at the same time ... hmmm.

Coincidence? I don’t think so.

And this tone of posing a question like they don’t know the answer (but they do) is very similar to other previously abandoned accounts.

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

Nope. You don't mean professional. You mean what older photographers associate with older professional cameras. Guess what? New tech, new type of camera, new type of body. Sony is dedicated to small and light. If you want unnecessary bulk because of old associations, I am sure that other companies will accommodate you!

Feb 11, 2021permalink

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/leaked-sony-fx3-product-image/

While there may not be a version of the a1 with a larger body, it does appear that Sony is going to release a video-centric version of it, the FX3:

It looks like it is designed to accept all manner of modular components and be customized to one's video setup.

This is a very interesting development...and it does appear that Sony wants to start very strong out of the gait for 2021...

Feb 11, 2021permalink

Fancy features or not. Sony A7iii is still king of sales on Amazon being nr1 as I checked now.
There is not much competition when a camera from 2017 can be the best seller in 2021.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Amazon US?

Yesterday and all last week the R5 was number 1, and today the M50 was #1 and the R5 was #2 .
But the R5 was also sold out so maybe it dropped from earlier today.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

Actually, I just looked and number 1 in mirrorless is a Kodak Funsaver camera..but the Sony a7iii is number 2 :)

The a7III is a solid camera and it was recently lowered in price; that makes for a good combo in terms of sales. Most people don't buy the latest and greatest; they buy what they consider to have value. So it is impressive but understandable why the a7iii continues to perform. The Sony a6000 after all these years considers to sell well.

What is also impressive to me is that the R5 is #4 and the R6 is #5, and also that the a7sIII is #6; those are the newest cameras and all at higher prices, esp the R5 and a7sIII.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

yes it is a somewhat static (boring) story, top 10 ML cameras are almost exclusively Sony and Canon and it has been like that for a while.
It wouldn't hurt if one more camera company was remotely successful in ML sales.

Feb 10, 2021*permalink

https://4see6kdoql3uw5gsfhtjkkspbe-jj2cvlaia66be-www-sony-jp.translate.goog/ichigan/products/ILCE-1/feature_3.html

#Welsh - "There’s a reason why this new camera shows no IBIS improvement"

FYI, the a1 has 5.5 stops of IBIS-only stabilization, and Sony is doing it with a carbon fiber heatsink attached to the IBIS structure.

That level of technical innovation is way beyond anything else on the market.

"Graphite material with excellent thermal conductivity, which is also used for smartphones, is processed into Sony's original "Σ (sigma) shape" and incorporated into the camera shake correction unit. Due to this epoch-making structure, the heat generation from the image sensor, which is the main factor of the temperature rise inside the main body, is about (α7R IV) compared to the conventional one without hindering the smooth operation of the image sensor unit during camera shake correction. We have succeeded in obtaining a heat dissipation effect of 5 times (*). [for the a1]"

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

I do have to agree that this is some next level engineering by Sony to handle the heat management. This is Sony at their very best. The attention to detail and the cleverness of the solution reminds me of something Apple would do.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

" This is Sony at their very best."

Canon is equally capable if they intended to do so. They decided to cripple R5.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

pwilly

Lens rentals research shows it is not the sensor that is the source of overheating in 8K. It's the processor, i.e. the Bionz.
Another bad translation from engineering to marketing.
Carbon fiber saves weight and should improve IBIS.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

I seem to recall that the Lensrentals claim was for the R5? Not the a1.

Per the quote I posted above, Sony stated: "...the heat generation from the image sensor, which is the main factor of the temperature rise inside the main body"

My opinion is that the people who built the camera know more about it than anyone else, but we could try to figure out why. For example the a1 has a stacked sensor and the R5 doesn't. Powering a bank of internal sensor ram is going to use more current, and therefore throw off more waste heat from the sensor.

A carbon fiber heatsink attached to the sensor has to be stabilized by the IBIS system, that will be more difficult because it adds mass and weight that the IBIS has to compensate for. Afaik, this is the first heatsink that's ever been used on an IBIS system.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

pwilly

The sensor is not doing millions or billions of frames per second. If you look at any silicon its the GHz speeds that create heat. Sony Semi's lovely stacked sensor has more column A/D than any previous sensors, and even at 8K they are loafing along. More A/D would make it run cooler than the Canon.
Just saying their claim doesn't pass a basic smell test.
40 years living at the interface of silicon engineers and Marketing folks makes me suspicious.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

I was an electronics tech in a previous life, so you'd know more about this than I do. I wish that we knew what frequencies this stuff is running at.

What I don't understand is how more silicon could make things run cooler. Embedded ram generates heat because it takes power to run it, stacked sensors therefore should generate more heat than unstacked sensors.

There is probably an argument that Sony process node sizes and interconnects are going to be better than what Canon has, is that enough to offset the extra heat generated by internal ram. The a1 CIPA battery life numbers are really good, so perhaps so.

Overheating with video is why this matters so much, most people don't seem to be too hung up on battery life these days.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

Mr Bolton

Sounds to me like Sony had to re-engineer their IBIS to make it stop breaking. The heat dissipation things sounds like marketing spin to me, otherwise when Lensrentals spent all that time pointing their IR camera at the R5, the IBIS unit would have been, you know, not blue.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

I don't get Sony. A $6k camera - and still - trying to make it as small as possible. Senseless. This should be the go-to mirrorless camera for sports photographers. It should have a built-in grip and a larger hand grip. Sony should have gone full Nikon D6 on the body. Anything less makes no sense for a camera in this price range with these capabilities.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

It's real simple, Sony owners don't want DSLR boat anchors.

Giant heavy camera bodies are not ergonomic.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

fjbyrne

I think the separate grip is better since you can travel smaller and lighter if you want. I do think they should have included the grip especially if the R1 is priced at $6500. Maybe they'll be sold as a kit eventually.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

The Nikon D6 is so well designed and thought out that honestly it doesn't seem as heavy or large as it might seem.

The Nikon pro bodies are a joy to use, and there is something special about that shutter sound. That shutter sound will always be iconic, just like the louder sounds from some of the great and classic cars are iconic, like Ferrari, Mustang, Corvette, etc.

That doesn't mean Sony has to copy that size/weight, or even that Nikon should with it's mirrorless pro body when that arrives...but rest assured the Nikon D6 is an amazing tool and feels amazing to use.

In fact I would say that just from a pure design perspective, the Nikon D6 is far more polished and refined at being what it is than any Sony camera.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

You can't somehow magically wish heavier objects to be lighter, that's hilarious. It's a failed attempt at rationalization.

a1: 1.62 lb

D6: 2.80 lb

Nikon D6 is obsolete, and obsolete is not refined, it's dead tech that is not ergonomic.

#Thoughts R Us: "there is something special about that shutter sound."

The Sony a1 has a carbon fiber shutter, very few people will be using it, but I imagine that it will have a special sound all it's own. And again, it's another example of Sony innovation that no other company can match.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

I do credit Sony with the carbon fiber design and how it mitigates heat internally.

But please, the Nikon pro body like the D6 is a classic in its own right. It's like a classic Ferrari or Mustang or Corvette...it does have a certain appeal to the soul.

If you don't appreciate that then it's on you. But don't denigrate the opinions of others. And please realize that your absolutism is absurd. If you can't admit that any other brand or camera other than Sony has anything else to offer then that puts you in a cult.

It takes nothing away from Sony to simply appreciate another type of camera from one of the most venerable names in all of photography.

Remember, photographers are supposed to be artists, not technicians.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#Thoughts R Us - "I do credit Sony with the carbon fiber design and how it mitigates heat internally."

I said "carbon fiber shutter", not carbon fiber heat sink. You are making a lot of derogatory comments about the a1, but you clearly don't know anything about it. Your constant false generalizations about Sony are the very definition of absolutism and cult behavior.

#Thoughts R Us - "photographers are supposed to be artists, not technicians."

You don't get to tell people what their photography is supposed to be.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@brownie 314

"It should have a built-in grip and a larger hand grip. Sony should have gone full Nikon D6 on the body. Anything less makes no sense for a camera in this price range with these capabilities."

You couldn't be more wrong. The big cameras are over. The gigantic bodies were needed to absorb the vibration of the high-speed reflex mechanisms and freight the enormous batteries. They are now a historic footnote.

Canon's has publicly stated that the R5 is the mirrorless heir to it's 5D series but it's smaller than any FF Canon DSLR - it's even smaller than the 80D.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Bank Shot: I am sorry but I am going to totally embarrass you.

You wrote: "I said "carbon fiber shutter", not carbon fiber heat sink. You are making a lot of derogatory comments about the a1, but you clearly don't know anything about it."

Yet, in a later comment not too far above, you wrote this: "FYI, the a1 has 5.5 stops of IBIS-only stabilization, and Sony is doing it with a carbon fiber heatsink attached to the IBIS structure."
Link: https://www.dpreview.com/videos/8702427033/dpreview-tv-sony-a1-review?comment=1040281832

So which is it? Now to me it doesn't really matter since you were just trying to get all technical on me just to insult me. And even the comment you criticized of mine read ""I do credit Sony with the carbon fiber design and how it mitigates heat internally." So that "carbon fiber design" could apply to heat sink or shutter, or both for all I care.

But I find it ironic that you literally contradict yourself.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

RubberDials - no those bodies were not big to absorb shock energy from from the shutter. If that were the case all DSLR would have been that big. No -- those bodies are big because when you have three feet of lens out in front of the body - it is useful to have something to hold on to that isn't a toothpick sized object.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#Thoughts R Us: "So which is it? ...how it mitigates heat internally"

1)The a1 has a carbon fiber heatsink and it has a carbon fiber shutter, as I stated. I'm not sure why actual facts and truth are so confusing.

2)The carbon fiber shutter is quite obviously not put there to mitigate heat, why would you think that. You claimed that the D6 had an "iconic" shutter sound, despite never having used it, and I pointed out that the a1 shutter probably also does, because it's carbon fiber.

#Thoughts R Us: "I am sorry but I am going to totally embarrass you."

I'm embarrassed because you didn't know that the a1 had a carbon fiber shutter? Lol, no.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#brownie314: "If that were the case all DSLR would have been that big. No -- those bodies are big because when you have three feet of lens out in front of the body"

People put big lenses on small DSLRs, so that doesn't make sense.

And it's not logical either, big lenses have tripod mounts to support the weight, they are not designed to be held by the camera body.

The fulcrum point of a big lens when it's mounted on a camera is not at the camera body, it's on the lens.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Bank Shot: please, stop digging. You clearly claimed that you said "carbon fiber shutter" and not heat sink...and then berated me for possibly suggesting the heat sink. Then I point out how in another post you clearly stated that it had a carbon fiber heat sink.

In this instance I don't care about the tech details, but only that you clearly contradicted yourself to try to score a cheap shot against me.

As for me using a D6, yes, I have and I I've used a D5 as well. They are finely made machines and they do have a great iconic shutter sound IMHO.

Please try to stop insulting people and stick to discussing the topics of the cameras at hand.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

"People put big lenses on small DSLRs, so that doesn't make sense." - people do all kinds of things that are not optimal - so...not an argument.
No - people hand hold long lenses all the time. A tripod is ideal - but not always convenient for all situations - especially fast moving sporting events where the photographer is moving with the athletes. It is better, if you have to hand hold - to have one hand on the big lens and the other on a firm big grasp point on the body. That is what the D6 and all Nikon D(x) bodies provide.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

Yes, if you are handholding large lenses, the larger camera bodies make for a better balance and grip.

BTW the Nikon pro bodies are really well designed. They are big but don't feel as heavy as you might think they would. They are remarkable machines.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

#brownie314: "people hand hold long lenses all the time"

Yes, people hand-hold the weight of long lenses by the fulcrum point on the lens, *not* by the camera body, as you keep falsely claiming.

The fact that there is a tripod mount at the fulcrum point of long lenses proves that, it's not arguable. No lens mount on a camera body is designed to support the weight of a long lens. That's why camera body size is irrelevant.

This sobbing nostalgia for giant camera bodies goes against what most manufacturers are doing with MILC, companies know that people don't want huge heavy cameras.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#Thoughts R Us: "You clearly claimed that you said "carbon fiber shutter" and not heat sink"

No, I clearly stated that the a1 has both a carbon fiber heat sink and a carbon fiber shutter, because it's does, that's a fact. I research the gear I post about.

You didn't know any of that, and for some weird reason you claimed that a carbon fiber shutter can mitigate heat. Next time research cameras before attempting to bash 'em.

As for your D6 ownership claim, lets see some of those D6 pics that you shot. Your DPR gallery is empty, so where is your website, instagram, Flickr, etc.? Have you ever posted a D6 photo to any DPR thread?

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@BS: I will drop this silly line of argument about what you wrote about carbon fiber shutter and carbon fiber heat sink, etc. It's irrelevant and everyone can see for themselves if any one cares.

As for posting shots or disclosing IG, etc...why would I do that? All that would do is allow people like you to criticize me more. I don't need to prove anything to you and no matter what I proved, it wouldn't matter because you are not acting in good faith.

So believe what you want about me; no sweat off my back.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

"Yes, people hand-hold the weight of long lenses by the fulcrum point on the lens, *not* by the camera body, as you keep falsely claiming."
You are kidding right? You think people hold a camera-body assembly with ONE HAND? You are either just grasping to win your un-winnable argument - or you have never held a camera before. You choose.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

BTW - who designs a heat sink out of carbon fiber - a substance that has a very low thermal conductivity relative to metals?

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Brownie314

"RubberDials - no those bodies were not big to absorb shock energy from from the shutter. If that were the case all DSLR would have been that big."

This is my quote, I did not mention shutter: "The gigantic bodies were needed to absorb the vibration of the high-speed reflex mechanisms and freight the enormous batteries."

Cameras like the 1DXII and D5 flip the mirror at ≈14 fps. That creates a lot of vibration in the mirror box that would cause significant shake in smaller bodies. Larger battery packs are needed to drive the cameras at high speeds. There is no smaller DSLR that achieves the reflex viewing rates of these cameras. The body size has nothing to do with using large lenses.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

Rubber - but that doesn't make any sense. If shutter shock (which IS what you are talking about) can happen at 14fps - it can happen at 1fps. Any motion blur due to shutter shock is not dependent on frame rate. So - if these big FF shutters can cause motion blur at 14fps - they can do it at 1fps. And clearly CaNikon has made lighter weight FF dslr bodies.
The D850 snicks away at 7fps. Are you telling me there is some significant difference between 7fps and 14fps vs 1fps WRT shutter shock?

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

BTW - I am not saying shutter shock doesn't exist. I am also not saying that larger bodies would not be less prone (because they would be). What I am saying is that clearly CaNikon has made small DSLR FF bodies. And those do not seem to be any more prone to shutter shock than the large bodies. Meaning - after a certain body weight is achieved - it becomes much less of an issue. Maybe that weight is somewhere around a D750?

Feb 9, 2021permalink

#Thoughts R Us: "As for posting shots or disclosing IG, etc...why would I do that?"

People who can prove that they are photographers with the gear that they are arguing about establish credibility.

Failing that, at least posting links back to credible sources makes for a convincing argument, per any high school debate class.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

#brownie314 - "who designs a heat sink out of carbon fiber"

Sony stated that it's a 5x improvement, and that they already use it on smartphones.

#brownie314 - "a substance that has a very low thermal conductivity relative to metals?"

"And carbon fiber, in particular, makes a pretty darned good heat conductor. ...That black woven material you see in high-end tennis rackets and racing bicycles, or stuck to the dashboards of cheap wannabe sports cars, is now making its way into the server room. It’s not there for structural integrity. It’s there as a newer, lighter, more flexible heat-transference device.

... part is due to the material’s stranded nature. Strands present more surface area to the heat source than does a solid object, like a metal heat sink. That allows the velvet to soak up more heat than an equivalent mass of metal could. And, since it transfers that heat better than any metal, it’s doubly more efficient." https://www.eejournal.com/article/carbon-is-cool/

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#brownie314: "You think people hold a camera-body assembly with ONE HAND?"

Posting lies about what was said isn't an argument, lol.

I said that people hold the WEIGHT by one hand, at the fulcrum point of the lens, because that's how it's done.

You were wrong about the carbon fiber heat sink, and you are wrong about this.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

bank - "No lens mount on a camera body is designed to support the weight of a long lens. That's why camera body size is irrelevant."
Wait - so you are saying that since camera-lens combinations are designed to be held either by hand or tripod on the lens - THEREFORE - camera body size is irrelevant? Tires steer cars - therefore - steering wheel size is irrelevant. How do you like them apples?

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#brownie314: "Tires steer cars - therefore - steering wheel size is irrelevant"

So now cars are somehow the same as camera bodies? Lol, that's the most ridiculous claim yet.

Tell us again how carbon fiber is not good heat sink material ;-)

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

bank - there is no doubt that cameras with long lenses are meant to be supported at the lens - not the body. That really is not supporting your argument. Yes, the combined CG of the assembly falls in the lens - not the body. So what? A larger body still helps support and steady the whole assembly.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

It is called an analogy. It takes something that you might be familiar with (driving a car) and aides in your understanding of a thing you are clearly unfamiliar with - cameras. Analogies are useful tools, especially when the person has no understanding of how to hold a large lens and camera. And yeah - steering wheel to tires is not totally off base - it has merit. You will have to trust me on this until the day you get a camera.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

#brownie314: "there is no doubt that cameras with long lenses are meant to be supported at the lens"

Why the sudden change of opinion? What happened to all your claims that people hold big lenses by the camera body? Strange.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

"What happened to all your claims that people hold big lenses by the camera body?" - lies are not arguments. I could have sworn someone here said that before. Please show me where I claimed that people hold big lenses by the camera body. I will wait - possibly forever.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

I don't get the obsession with the old ways. Big and bulky is just awful. Not everyone is elderly and wants everything clunky and heavy. It isn't needed. You have every other company if you want unnecessary bulk. GO with Panasonic.

And there is no better "balance." Stop parroting this. You hold it on the lens at the center of gravity. All that a bulky and heavy body does is add unnecessary weight.

"So what? A larger body still helps support and steady the whole assembly."

It does nothing to steady the heavy lens. It does nothing to support the lens. It is just added bulk and weight for the sake of nostalgia.

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

Thecylon - says someone who has never shot a 100-500 with an A7 matchbox on the flange end

Feb 11, 2021permalink

When did Sony ever make a 100-500 lens in e-mount?

Once again, you are posting false information.

Feb 11, 2021permalink

Lots of lenses are adapted to e-mount. And I know that Sony makes a 200-600.

Feb 11, 2021permalink

What 100-500 lens was ever adapted to e-mount?

Feb 11, 2021permalink

my mistake - I meant the f-mount 200-500

Feb 11, 2021permalink

My point is - big lenses exist. Like it or not. Even in native e-mount.

Feb 11, 2021permalink

I shoot the FE200-600 on the a9, it works perfectly, because as many others have already told you, the weight of the lens is held by the hand, not by the camera body.

We know that you don't understand that, but it's a fact.

Feb 11, 2021permalink

so - if the camera were the size of a matchbox - the ergonomics would be unchanged for you?

Feb 11, 2021permalink

There only thing you got here is a bunch of false claims.

Just give it up and move on.

Feb 11, 2021permalink

Which false claims? Claims like - big lenses exist? Is that false?

Feb 11, 2021permalink

You hold on the lens at the center of gravity. Adding extra weight on one side might tip this by a tiny fraction, but the reality is just that you are just adding weight for the sake of it. Nostalgia and inability to adapt is what this is about.

Additionally, Sony's mirrorless lens designa have centered gravity as a goal unlike moat front heavy designs of past telephotos.

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

Thecylon - yes, there is no doubt that with a big lens - you have to hold the lens at its CG. Or the mount collar or some place to hold on. But - you also hold the camera grip in your OTHER hand. Or am I the only one that handles big lens / camera with two hands? Maybe you hold a big lens with your left and poke the shutter button with your tongue so your right hand is free to engage in other activities. I have not seen this style - but if you say so - I guess you do. No - most people I know like to have a nice grip to hold with their right while they hold the lens CG with their left. And having a nice, big right hand grip does help move the camera / lens combo around. I have never used your tongue method and I probably won't try it.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

Do an experiment. Get a D4 and a Nikon 200-500. Now get an A9 and a Sony 200-600. Try both in a fast moving environment. Shoot each for about an hour. Now - tell me which was more comfortable to use.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

People keep talking about "balance," which is why I addressed that bogus argument. Yes, other hand is on the camera and the regular grip is absolutely fine. Are you slipping or something? Are you dropping lots of cameras?

Feb 12, 2021*permalink

That is my point. The D4 (or 5, or 6) has a larger grip. Which is better for manipulating camera/lens combinations.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

The grip doesn't carry any lens weight, it's not heavy, so it is not relevant to holding weight on the fulcrum point of the lens.

Not sure why this is so confusing for you.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

Since you are holding it at the center of gravity, it should be cake to manipulate. The normal grip is more than sufficient. I've handheld all day with the 200-600 and the base a9 without any difficulty whatsoever.

Feb 12, 2021permalink

Glenn Barber

Does this camera have an AA filter - how strong? As a A7R4 users I am hoping not...

Feb 8, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

After reading through a variety of reviews, the consensus is the A1 body isn’t as good as the R5 which is half the price.
The EVF is better and LCD is worse, but those don’t seem to be the deciding factors.
Awkward grip, no top display, and button placement are the arguments they give.

I wish more time was spent showing how the body compares. Previously Jordan said the grip was small for his hands. And one review said with a telephoto lens his fingers didn’t fit well.

This is the first thing I look for in a high end camera. Is it comfortable and easy to use.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

For the full review could you guys tell us how easy or hard this camera is to use with gloves? I’ve seen a couple reviews that were unfavorable.
A lot of us shoot in the cold.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Maybe they will post some examples like this for everyone to see and judge.
https://2.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS1120x1120~forums/59547045/529c01ebeb154cd4acb6ba8ee54b659b

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

#LarryJones - "This is the first thing I look for in a high end camera"

I'd like to see some examples of the high-end work that you do, especially with the R5 that you keep posting about.

Got a website, Instagram, Flickr, etc? Your DPR gallery is empty.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

I complimented Sony above for their innovative passive heat management system and the attention to detail that this shows. Would that Sony put that same attention to detail in the design and ergonomics of their camera bodies.

And this wouldn't mean going that much larger. They could even improve the design and keep it the current size.

Sony should hire Jony Ive and his new design company to rethink their camera design. A Jony Ive design with Sony's advanced tech would be something special.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Isn't that the first think everyone looks at when they are at a store considering cameras? You hold it in your hand before turning it on to see how it feels. Then you fiddle with the buttons and dials to see how they feel.
Do people buy expensive cameras without ever holding them first? I wouldn't unless there was a liberal return policy.
About 6 months ago I looked at an X-T3 and X-T4. Bothe great cameras. Both with small grips. I couldn't hold either comfortably. But then the S10 came out and it was much improved for me.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

Unfortunately, with less camera stores around, and even stores like Best Buy not always carrying as full a selection of cameras, many now buy online based on specs.

I think when most get their camera, they rightfully are impressed by its technical capabilities, and just learn to live with it. Many probably don't know what else is out there and if there's anything better.

That being said, I do think Sony loses some sales based on some of their design shortcomings.

I still say Sony should bring in an outside design firm to offer a fresh perspective, a perspective based not just on engineering, but on art and human factors.

A better design would probably gain Sony a decent amount of sales.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Ric 360

"Maybe they will post some examples like this for everyone to see and judge. https://2.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS1120x1120~forums/59547045/529c01ebeb154cd4acb6ba8ee54b659b"

That's a picture of the A7II - a camera that came out seven years ago. What has that got to do with the A1?

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Thoughts R Us

"I complimented Sony above for their innovative passive heat management system and the attention to detail that this shows. Would that Sony put that same attention to detail in the design and ergonomics of their camera bodies."

Yes, you're nothing if not canny. You don't want to be all one note and get banned. And praising them insincerely in one area means you can attack them with more justification in another - as your post above demonstrates.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@RubberDials: you give me too much credit!

Maybe I'm just being honest. Maybe I'm just saying what many others have said for years: that when it comes to the technology inside, Sony is to be admired, but when it comes to design and the human factors, the user experience, they could use some help. And it's not just cameras, a lot of their products have had this problem going back years.

I'm sorry if you can't admit that Sony is like all brands, with their strengths and weaknesses. Again, there's a term for someone who believes that any person, group, or company is perfect and that is a cult member.

But if you want to believe that I am some sort of devilishly clever commenter, then go ahead.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Thoughts R Us

"Maybe I'm just being honest."

Nope.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@TRU

" the user experience"

How ironic of you talking about user experience! When someone have positive user experience about Sony, you won't consider it at all, On the other hand, you keep bashing the cameras based on less than 5% of real user experiences where the person either don't own a Sony or based on some subjective preference.

I have never met a Sony user who have any issues with the design of the camera he is using. It is just a matter of getting used to it. I have been using a lot of cameras and never had any issues with the design, even though I have a large hands, but that did not prevent me from using and enjoying the camera.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@TRU

"A better design would probably gain Sony a decent amount of sales."

The last time I checked, they do sell a decent amount while dominating the Mirrorless market share!

"Maybe I'm just saying what many others have said for years"

Others said the opposite of what you are claiming but you don't mention it nor do you even consider it as a REAL user experience.

Stop your nonsense and grow up.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@EG: I grant you that many use Sony cameras, and thus the user experience can't be all bad. And yes, I am sure some like and enjoy the Sony user experience. And yes, some of it is just getting used the controls and menu's.

But it is a common point that many make that Sony needs some help on UX. Even Sony acknowledged that when they totally changed their menu design staring with the a7sIII. Why? Some defended the old menu system just like you are doing here. But clearly Sony felt that it needed improvement.

As to "growing up"...well, I'm not the one with the rather insulting personal tone.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@TRU

I asked you and several people before about the reason that make Sony menu's bad, and how often are you using the menu (for what reason). Non have answered the question because it is just a repetitive nonsense.

Could you tell me how many times Canon did changed the menu? Why didn't you and others complained about it? if it was such a sufficient menu system, why would Canon change it?
Anyone who is used to a certain system, will find other systems difficult or bad (mostly).

You shouldn't have a double standards, anyone who can go through your comments history will see how you totally ignore facts provided by real owners and keep on repeating the same things over and over. You just can't admit your double standards towards a certain brand.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Its cold and snowing where I am now.

I'd like someone to tell us how well the A7Siii/A7Riv/A1 body works with thick gloves and a larger lens.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Ric 360

Here you go.. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4456565

Also you could ask Paul Nicklen, who is using Sony cameras for years in the Artic. They seem to be very happy with the cameras.

Do you own one of these cameras btw?

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Yeah, he is coming from the A9ii. I remember seeing a lot of people using the Em1 mark II in the arctic and sub zero weather. Of course that old MFT had a nicer grip than the A9, but you can use those smaller grips with gloves. Its just not as easy.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#692,713,ha,t

I think some are missing the point too. Sony has the smallest grips on their bodies (some like that), and they don't offer any options to all of those who prefer a larger grip. They don't offer a top LCD at all many more either.
What makes it seem a little worse is they are charging $6500 for a camera that lacks a lot of features many expect in a FF in that price range.
That's why the A1 gets compared to the R5 and not more expensive cameras.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@Ric 360

Form factor is subjective, some people prefer smaller form factor and others prefer bigger form factor. Neither are wrong, it is all up to the personal preferences.

Your point is not valid because of that. Real user experience shows that people who are using these cameras are happy with them and you can't just disapprove that because your personal preferences are different. I have a large hands and never had any issues with any lens I have used. In fact, this is the first time I see people (which don't own the camera) complain about something that they never used.

There are no complaints from real users of these cameras with the issue you mentioned, this is enough to stop this nonsense.

Again, do you own one of these cameras?

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

"Form factor is subjective," - which is why offering a greater choice of form factors rather than one extreme (on the small stripped down side) is important. If you are going offer one, make in the in the middle of what people want.
The A1 form factor is close to budget level bodies with no top LCD, a smaller grip, a 3 inch LC (vs 3.2), and no vertical grip.
Look at all these bodies that sell for under $2000 next to the A1. The grips area about the same, controls are similar, and the Z6 comes with the top LCD the A1 lacks.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#815,795,692,867,ha,b

And since you ask, this is the body I shot with for years. It is 10x more comfortable and easier to hold than the A1/A7Siii/A7Riv body.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#867,552,ha,t
it has a top LCD, and despite its age had the same size LCD with near identical resolution.
IMHO, Sony has gone backwards in ergonomics.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@EG: Actually Canon has had remarkable consistent menu's for several years. They may have tweaked them here and there, but they did not do a total makeover like Sony did. Because they didn't need to do so.

Also, one other little point: it is only with the a7siii and the a1 that Sony has full touchscreen allowing touch menu operation. Why? That tech has been around a long time, others have used it for a long time. Sony knows how to do it, but why didn't they give that useful feature only until now and only on their higher priced models? It's baffling but it's one of those oversights that Sony tends to make.

Just like their lower quality back LCD screen..again, it makes no sense. Sony is perfectly capable of putting in a high quality LCD screen. But they cheap out even on their most expensive model.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

#Thoughts R Us: "Just like their lower quality back LCD screen..again, it makes no sense."

I can see how it makes no sense to people who don't have experience with MILC. Because with MILC there is this thing called an "evf", where the most-used functions, like chimping, are done better. People don't want a weak rear lcd, that gets washed out in bright light.

Modern evf's all use OLED panels, not inferior lcd panels, so p.q. is much better with the evf, and it never washes out in bright light.

MILC does not need top lcd either, because camera settings are visible in the evf. Top lcd sucks down power, there is nothing logical about it. It's nothing more than a nod to DSLR boomers who can't accept change.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@Ric 360

So your factor in deciding a camera price is the form factor? If a camera is small it shouldn't be rated as pro-level camera? Lol, you make me laugh with this excuses.

Top LCD was a good advantage back when optical viewfinders where the standard, what advantage it will give you nowadays? You can see and adjust the exposure from the viewfinder (in which case it is the best in class) or the back LCD as they contain all of the needed information

Sony bodies have more customization than others provide, it is all about your talent in preparing the camera the way you like.

While I do agree on the A77II as having a better form factor for (me), in which case will lead to the same point above. Some people prefer smaller form factor, some prefer bigger, none of them are wrong.

So your point regarding the form factor is only valid for people who prefer larger form factor.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

An LCD top panel is the way to go when checking settings. It uses almost no battery. And can been seen while the camera I down at your side.

Anybody who says a top LCD sucks power has no clue. Its different tech than the rear LCD and EVF which use a lot more power. A top LCD uses virtually none. Its similar to a kindle screen that can run for weeks vs. a phone screen which lasts hours.

ElGhuraify, did you really just imply form factor should NOT be considered when deciding a cameras price? I bet you Sony feels the A1 EVF justifies a higher price than if it didn't have one. Its insane that you do not.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@Bank Shot: Even on a mirrorless with EVF, people still use the back LCD screen. Some use it a lot. It depends on the individual and the photographer. If the EVF was all people needed and used, then why even put in a back LCD screen?

So the EVF is no excuse for not giving a quality back LCD.

I'd say the top LCD is less important than the back screen, but of course, even with EVF, some like to use that feature. And those top LCD's do not use much power at all.

Also please dispense with the insulting tone and stereotyping of those who have used DSLRs. I have news for you: most of those buying mirrorless have also had DSLRs. And those using DSLRs not are just boomers. And quite frankly, any company wanting to sell mirrorless has to appeal to those who've used DSLRs. There are not that many new camera buyers going straight into mirrorless.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@TRU

So what was so bad about Sony's menu, which I see you complaining a lot about it without giving a valid reason! Also let me ask you this question again, how often do you use the menu and for what? could you please answer the related questions?

I agree with you that the back screen is lacking behind the competition, while the competition is lacking behind in terms of viewfinder. However, that doesn't make this camera lacking in general by any means. other flagship cameras with the same price point targeting the same market don't have 50 MP, FPS, video options, Sensor readout speeds and many other advantages. The only thing that you and others have is exactly the same over the years (menu, colors and now "built like a tank".

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

It comes down to this, Sony offers one smaller body in all their cameras over $2000. It's a smaller body which appeals to some, but not everyone.
Canon has the R5 body and the "pro" body on the 1Dx3 in comparison. Obviously that's more of a choice. Both the R5 and 1Dx3 offer features the A1/A7Siii/A7Riv do not. So its impossible to get them with Sony.
If the Sony body were highly rated it might make more sense, but its not. It is a step below the R5 according to review sites. (example:"Body and Design - We Prefer the Canon R5")

Its a simple fix For Sony though. Offer a pro body and the argument ends.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#Ric 360: "An LCD top panel is the way to go when checking settings."

If people wanted that, camera manufacturers would be putting it on all MILC bodies, but they aren't. Most MILC bodies do not have a top lcd.

When most manufacturers aren't doing something, it might be because people don't want it. I know that's hard to understand, some people think that they know it all, that everyone wants what they want.

Of course an lcd panel uses power, but I can see how people who don't own Sony are so used to dealing with terrible battery life that it's minor in their big inefficiency picture.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#Ric 360: "It's a smaller body which appeals to some, but not everyone."

No single camera body size appeals to everyone.

You keep claiming that what you want is what everyone wants, but that's clearly not the case.

Sony has been doing ff MILC for 10 years now, they have focus groups and they do user studies, they are giving their customers what the customer wants. No top lcd, no silly giant MILC bodies, the best battery life on the planet, the best af, the best lens selection, etc.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

#Thoughts R Us: "Even on a mirrorless with EVF, people still use the back LCD screen"

DSLR owners certainly do, it's all they know because they never had an evf. Same thing with the weird fixation on having a top lcd, that most MILC bodies don't have.

You failed to address the specific points that were made, for instance not being able to use a rear lcd when it's washed out in bright light. Ignoring facts doesn't make for a convincing argument.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Ric 360
Which features that the 1DXIII offer over the Sony A1? The R5 does appeal to some, but not everyone also. People who prefer smaller form factor are not interested in both of Canon's offerings.

What applies to Sony, it also apply to Canon.

"Offer a pro body" could you refer me to anyone who could define a pro body? or is it again some personal preferences?

" according to review sites."

Well according to this review site they "loved the deeper grip, the buttons and dials feels really good" so could you refer me to how many sites are describing the A1 body not being a pro body, or how it lacks in handling? and if so, how many there are compared to others?

"We Prefer"
Key word here is we prefer. Again, a subjective opinion (preference) which you don't understand and keep including.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

"Which features that the 1DXIII offer over the Sony A1"

larger grip
Top LCD
vertical grip
more controls
larger rear LCD

We are talking about bodies and ergonomics and that's a lot the A1 left off.

This is the class the A1 falls under for body and ergonomics.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#815,692,867,852,795,ha,t

The next level (with larger read LCDs and top LCD) is this class. https://camerasize.com/compact/#861,851,ha,t

And then you have the "Pro" class. (I added the A99ii because with vertical grip is was very competitive)
https://camerasize.com/compact/#838,839,687,ha,t

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@Ric 360

It seems that you still can't differentiate between personal preferences and features.

-First of all, not everyone need/want a larger grip you can't decide that it is a drawback.

- Top LCD's are essential for cameras with optical viewfinders, while EVFs offer much more information.

- Again, not everyone wants a permanent attached grip into their cameras, subjective.

- You are wrong, you can have more than 17 function buttons on the A1 to customize it the way you want.

- A1 is clearly lacking in terms of rear LCD, not that 0.2 will make a huge difference.

I will tell you what does features mean.

A1 have 250% more resolution
- 50% more FPS.
- Best EVF in the market.
- Both cameras are made from the same materials.
- Better video capabilities.
and much more FEATURES inside the camera that the 1DX is not even close to.

I could say the smaller and lighter form factor is an advantage, but as I sai before, it is just subjective.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

ElGhuraify.
You are making my argument.
Saying Sony offers a small limited feature one-size fits-all body isn't helping you.
Sony only has one form factor. Its in the "small" class with fewer features. ITs fine for those who want that.
But Sony is neglecting the majority who want other form factors too.
Sony has a number of features they do not offer all because of this. They offer less than their competitors when it comes to body features, body sizes, and ergonomics.
This is the class the A1 falls under for body and ergonomics.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#815,692,867,852,795,ha,t

The next level (with larger read LCDs and top LCD) is this class. https://camerasize.com/compact/#861,851,ha,t

And then you have the "Pro" class. (I added the A99ii because with vertical grip is was very competitive)
https://camerasize.com/compact/#838,839,687,ha,t

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@Bankshot, ElGhuraify

Don't waste your time arguing with Richard 360 and Thoughts R Us - they are astroturfers. They don't actually believe any of the things they write.

Ric 360 is not and has never been a Sony user. This is his brand: https://j.mp/2OnWyCj

Imagine complaining about the size of Sony's grip when you use something like that!

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Rubber Dials, can't say I've ever seen one of those in person.
But look at the classes of bodies. the newer model of the one in your picture falls in into the same class as the A1. My old A77ii falls in the next class with a larger grip and top LCD.

This is the class the A1 falls under for body size and ergonomics.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#815,692,867,852,795,ha,t

The next level (with larger rear LCDs and top LCD) is this class. https://camerasize.com/compact/#861,851,ha,t

And then you have the "Pro" class. (I added the A99ii because with vertical grip is was very competitive)
https://camerasize.com/compact/#838,839,687,ha,t

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@RubberDials

Yes, it is clearly as you said. Will call it a day and stop arguing with them.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

#Ric 360: "You are making my argument"

No, he isn't.

You keep failing to address the fact that most MILC manufacturers aren't offering what you want.

Sony is the #1 MILC brand, because they give customers what the customer wants, better than any other camera brand.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

There are 5 FF MILC manufactures that I know of (does Sigma count?). Canon, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and. Leica.

All but Sony offer FF cameras with larger rear LCDs and a top LCD.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#851,861,813,843,ha,t

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@Ric 360

You buffoon, I actually owned an A77 - it felt exactly the same in the hand as the A7rIV. The grip depth and size is exactly the same!

The R5, A7rIV and z7 are also the same size.

It helps if you've actually handled these cameras.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@RubberDials

He won't, I asked him several time about it and he ignored me.

But look what I found in 1DXIII's review. "What we don't like"
"Menus are increasingly complex, could benefit from more organization"
"It's big and heavy; awkward to use in live view for video"

So much for a flagship with non Sony menu and "BEST" Handling lol.

Should we start parroting this for the next 10 years? :)

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

Rubber dials, I don't get the name calling that Sony fans do all the time. Please be more civil.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#826,552,31,867,ha,t
https://camerasize.com/compact/#826,867,31,552,ha,f
"I actually owned an A77 - it felt exactly the same in the hand as the A7rIV. The grip depth and size is exactly the same"
The grip on the A77 and A77ii is a little deeper, longer (due to thinker body) and taller (no hanging pinkie).

As we can see with our own eyes you re wrong. You don't know what you are talking about.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@Ric 360

So your argument is we don't have stacked sensor technology, or even BSI, or dual recording, back-up or chaining, or custom white balance etc., but we have got a top plate LCD? Mmm convincing.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Finally, a Sony user agrees Sony no longer offers a camera with a Top LCD, a 3.2 inch rear LCD, and a larger grip, like other manufactures.

With A mount we had a few choices with body styles. I never owned the A99, but the A77ii felt good in the hand and that top LCD was very useful. Everyone said the A99i was even better.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Ric 360

Your beloved 1DXIII "Pro body" that is better than the Sony (according to you) is under (What we don't like) section in this site. Why are you still bragging about bigger form factor then?

Below is what is written about A7S III (which is the same body of A1) under (what we like section)

- "Comfortable ergonomics"

How ironic is that huh? Could you please explain?

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#Ric 360: "All but Sony offer FF cameras with ...top LCD"

Not as a standard offering they don't. And none of those are professional sports cameras like the a1 that is the subject of this article.

Top lcd is a waste of camera real estate, that is much better served by button/dial interfaces. That should be obvious, but apparently not.

And once again... rear lcd washes out in bright light regardless of the platform, a bigger lcd isn't going to help with that. I'm glad that Sony uses the lcd that they do, I don't want to pay for a bigger lcd, and apparently neither do most of the other Sony customers.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

After confirming the bad handling of the 1DXIII and Canon's complex menu system, while on the other hand the comfortable ergonomics from Sony. Next argument will be the placement of the C1 button lol.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

"Not as a standard offering they don't"
Its a choice. That is what Sony fans no longer understand.
It is better to have choices rather than a one-size-fits-all body that lacks a lot of features that some people want.

In the A mount days we had choice. A65 didn't have a top LCD, the A77 did. And the A99 was even better.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

#Ric 360: "Its a choice."

No, it's not a choice, you can't choose to have it or not have it on any specific camera model, from any manufacturer. It's an abnormality reserved for just a few cameras, that are designed to make DSLR boomer holdouts feel comfortable about moving to MILC.

Top lcd is clearly not widely accepted on MILC, most manufacturers do not offer it.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

Lol @Ric 360 still can't reply to my comments because of his double standards.

A1 have better and more comfortable ergonomics than the 1DXIII, not to mention the "complex menu system" that some were bragging about all day.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Yes Sony tells users today "No, it's not a choice". You don't get a choice. We won't offer it at all.
With the A65 and A77 it was.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Ric 360

Stop spreading misleading information. It was not offered with the A65, it was offered on the newer A68.

Still didn't reply to my comments?

Feb 9, 2021permalink

@Ric 360

"As we can see with our own eyes you re wrong. You don't know what you are talking about."

You want me to post the link to A77 sale - it's still up.

"The grip on the A77 and A77ii is a little deeper, longer (due to thinker body) and taller (no hanging pinkie)."

The trouble is, mate, you're an M43 user, astroturfing for Canon and you're talking about bodies you've never seen or handled. The SLT bodies had a curvy body design, and the mirrorless bodies are more angular, but the grip geometry is the same - depth, hight, angle. The control wheel is even at the same angle.
https://j.mp/3rFpYu6

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

For anyone who wonders how the Sony body rates against the 1DX3, this site lets you compare.

The Sony is the green bar and the 1Dx3 is the yellow that shows it scores higher.
https://g1.img-dpreview.com/376369D3CF0F42B7AD68007648191EB0.jpg

You can check for yourself. Go to the last page of the A7Siii review and use the comparison widget.

I did have a typo above. My point was Sony offered choice before the A65 did not have a top LCD and the A77 did.

Rubber, naming calling and making up fakes stuff doesn't help your cause. Saying one grip is curved and the other isn't, then contradicting yourself and saying they have the same geometry makes shows you are making stuff up.
It's obvious in the comparison too. Its there for all to see. They are not the same.
You were wrong, just move on.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@Ric

Sony is "Comfortable ergonomics", while 1DXIII is not favorable because of its handling according to DPR. Face it and accept that fact.

Can you show us a pictures for your claim of A65 for having a top LCD please?

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

ElGhuraify. Its not my opinion. I was posting what this site says.
The 1DX3 build quality and ergonomics rate a lot higher vs the Sony body when the two are compared.
If you do not like their conclusion when the two are directly compared take it up with them.
And YES!!!! You agree too! Sony offered choice with the A65/A77 one had a top LCD and the other did not. 100% agree!!!
Too bad they don't offer that choice or option anymore.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#Ric 360: "Yes Sony tells users today "No, it's not a choice"

No camera manufacturer gives you a choice for top lcd by specific model. You keep trying and failing to troll Sony for doing what all manufacturers do.

Once again, most MILC bodies do not have top lcd, that is not arguable, it's a fact. What you want is not what most people want.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#Ric 360: "ElGhuraify. Its not my opinion."

Agreed, it's the opinion of the company that's paying you to constantly bash Sony with all of this nonsense. Looks like they are wasting their money, tho ;-)

#Ric 360: "I was posting what this site says"

You attempted to claim that a tiny sliver portion of a small yellow bar is an accurate representation of what the entire market thinks. You failed to attach any poll data or any numerical representation to that little sliver, it's so tiny and undefined that it's insignificant.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

One thing I've noticed about some of the Sony defenders: they get very personal and can't confine their discussion to the camera topics. They also have this weird idea that anyone who disagrees with them must be getting paid to do it.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Bank shot, please stop the personal attacks.
I posted link to the DPR conclusion. And I posted a link to the camera size comparison.
Those are not my opinions, just information from experts.
I've also praised Sony repeatedly. The A77/A7ii/A99ii are great camera bodies with all the features I prefer. That was my opinion.
I just don't get why you guys get so uncivil.

Thoughts, its weird. I do not see this as much with other brands. As soon as I see name calling and those strange personal attacks, I know what brand they are "defending". And don't get me wrong, 99% of Sony users are great people. It's that 1%.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

Longest thread ever?

FWIW, having read thousands of posts from various commentators on dpr, I've generally found TRU to write mostly thoughtful, well-considered and rational posts.

Like all of us, he has personal preferences over brands and designs, which do come across in his posts, but unlike certain other rubbery folk, he appreciates the good points, as well as the faults, that are present in all brands and models.

Furthermore, I've never known TRU to descend to rudeness or personal attacks, even when vigorously challenged.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

#Thoughts R Us: "they also have this weird idea that anyone who disagrees with them must be getting paid to do it."

Yes, somebody who joined DPR in 2009, with thousands of posts reflecting a constant hardcore anti-Sony agenda, but never any photos, website, Flickr, instagram, etc., is only out here for the most innocent of purposes.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

#Ric 360: "I posted link to the DPR conclusion."

No, you posted a link to an undefined graphic, that essentially fell within the margin of error, along with grandiose claims like:

"The 1DX3 build quality and ergonomics rate a lot higher vs the Sony body when the two are compared."

The graphic link you posted clearly didn't back that up, and neither does the DPR conclusion.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

Bank Shot - "Top lcd is a waste of camera real estate, that is much better served by button/dial interfaces"

Absolutely agree. All of the info is in the EVF, and all of the info is available on the rear screen. I really don't understand why anyone wants a top plate display.

I thought older Sony models were pretty awful, but the control layout and menus of the a1 are now very good.

I'd love to have an a1, but I do think a wider body would help with the problem of pinched fingers between grip and certain lenses, and I really wish Sony would get rid of the hard edges, bevels and all the nooks and crannies where dust will accumulate.

Would I buy one? Probably not, purely on the basis of not being able to justify the cost. But I think it's good *value*, as its nearest competitors the 1Dxiii and D5 cost the same, but are less well specified in most regards. Not to mention too bloody heavy.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

@entoman

"but unlike certain other rubbery folk, he appreciates the good points, as well as the faults, that are present in all brands and models."

Almost nothing he writes is true.

99% of my posts on here are correcting misinformation spread by astroturfers like him and Ric who have had more accounts on here than you've had hot dinners. TRU has kept his account by knowing when and where to push his marketing but it looks to me like he will lose it soon.

Feb 10, 2021permalink

@Ric 360

I don't have a 'cause' and I 'don't make stuff up', I leave that to you.

Trashing the A1 isn't going that well for you under any of your accounts, because it's obviously an exceptional product and to people who don't know you're a paid forum influencer you just look bitter or deranged. Either way you're losing.

Feb 10, 2021permalink

"n't that the first think everyone looks at when they are at a store considering cameras? You hold it in your hand before turning it on to see how it feels. Then you fiddle with the buttons and dials to see how they feel."

No. I am not looking to cuddle or massage the camera. Most cameras feel nearly identical. I am interested in how it shoots pictures. Not touchy feely.

Feb 11, 2021permalink

Excellent review by Jordan of an extremely impressive camera. This is the first and only camera that has really tempted me to switch from Canon.

The Sony a1 is now the king of cameras, for both stills and video. I can't think of any FF camera that comes close to what this machine provides.

And at $6500 it is actually good value, when compared to the pro Canon 1Dxiii and Nikon D6.

But it's still way too expensive for most people to consider.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

An, no, we don't compare DSLR to mirrorless. Nor is it the kings of Stills, you should know better. Best all around, I might give you that.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Welsh

If Sony stay in the camera business (they have form in abandoning things; their main moneymaker is computer games) they will have to address their mount, originally designed for crop sensor. There’s a reason why this new camera shows no IBIS improvement.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

B2N1 - Sure, *when* the pro Canon mirrorless "R1" and pro Nikon mirrorless "Z9" are launched, a more direct comparison can be made.

But right now, the most direct competitors are the 1Dxiii and D6.

Same target audience - pros shooting sports, wildlife & reportage. Same price band.

I'd consider the a1 to be the king of stills, due to its ability to shoot 50MP images at up to 30fps, with almost zero rolling shutter, and with the best EVF in the business, and the widest range of native MILC glass.

Sony has clearly listened to all the justified criticisms made about various a7 series models - ergonomics, menus, touchscreen implementation etc, and sorted them out.

The a1 is the new king, and is the camera that I would buy, if I could justify spending that much money.

Of course, it won't improve my photography, as that is down to my own skill level and experience, but it's the best specified FF camera, and quite probably the one that would be most enjoyable to use.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Welsh - Yes there are one or two areas where other cameras will outperform the a1, and IBIS is the obvious example.

But this is primarily an action camera, and that means that subject movement is far more likely to cause blur than camera shake. Sony IBIS in such situations is more than adequate IMO.

Don't be concerned about Sony or Canon pulling out of photography. It simply won't happen. They'll both survive long after several of the other manufacturers have folded.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

I think you are comparing price more than anything else. But I reserve the right to be wrong. I won't attempt to do an direct comparison against the likes of Sony's own a7riv nor the other brands simply because as you should well know, the A1 hasn't even been properly vetted due to a variety of reasons. So how anyone can say King of anything is beyond me.

I beg to differ on whether a camera can improve one's photography. It's just a matter of how much. Composition, was that's so subjective although folks scream at the top of their lungs how great theirs and or someone else's is.

I truly believe the potential most enjoyable camera that's I seen so far is the new Fujifilm GFX 100S . At least for me. Bottom line, we now have a wide variety of choices with more to come. That's a good thing.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

B2N1 - Fujifilm GFX100s is a great camera, I agree. And I respect your opinion. It will outperform the a1 in terms of resolution and dynamic range. For some people it will indeed be the new "king" of cameras.

But for me personally, the a1 will do just about everything I want a camera to do, and when fitted with a zoom or telephoto, it's a far more usable camera than the Fujifilm, due to the lesser weight and bulk.

We all have different needs and shoot different subjects, so I wouldn't expect my first choice to coincide with anyone else's. As long as we are all happy with the gear we use, and more importantly - happy with the photographs we take with it, that's all that really counts.

I can't wait to see the specs of the pro Canon R1, and the Nikon Z9. It's all largely academic to me (and to most people) because I can't justify the cost of a flagship camera, but it's great fun to watch all these new models appearing.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

The GFX100s is so far camera of the year.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

nsnelly

I’m extremely impressed by the electronic shutter speed. My old A7iii and my R6 both suffer from banding indoors with bad lighting when I use the electronic shutter; the A1 would obviate that, which is great news for event photographers and wedding shooters.

Sony bodies aren’t for me, but I’m happy for those who shoot Sony and hope Canon and Nikon can follow suit with their next cameras.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

We'll know in a month or so if those Canon "global shutter" rumors are true.

A global shutter works like the CCD sensors and captures the whole frame at one time shatter than line by line. The stacked sensors capture a group of lines at one time, but still can have banding because the groups of lines are captured at different times.

Both Sony and Canon have said they are working on a global shutter so the race is on.

I am one of the few I guess that prefers a 'quiet' mechanical shutter. There many on the market these days that are fine during weddings, And best of all they give a quiet audible cue that pictures are being taken. This is help to Bothe the photographer, subject and people standing near by. People tend to move if they a professional is taking photos. But I understand some want something silent too.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

@Ric 360

"The stacked sensors capture a group of lines at one time, but still can have banding because the groups of lines are captured at different times."

A global shutter can still fail under artificial lights. It can fire when the light is pulsed off, producing a dark photo or one gigantic 'band'.

Canon released their pro sports camera last year. It was by necessity a DSLR. The likelihood of them producing a mirrorless camera with a global shutter is very slim. They were unable even to develop a custom 24mp sensor for the R6, but re-used the 1DXIII sensor instead.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

nsnelly

@RubberDials I like that the R6 re-used a very good sensor from a camera that costs 3x as much. I don't think it's a downside. They could have done something different, but by putting such an "expensive" sensor in their lower-end mirrorless camera, I think they made a statement. I wouldn't doubt Canon's ability in this race (or Sony's, for that matter).

Feb 10, 2021permalink

mrkarisma

Looks like a really good camera, the only problem is that you can take just as good photographs with a camera 1/8th of the price...

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Welsh

Sony have, ironically, given a massive boost to Canon with their pricing of this new camera. The R5 has better autofocus, and actually better 4K video than this camera, and yet you can buy the R5 for substantially less money... plus you have a lens mount that is future-proof.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Canon have, ironically, given a massive boost to A9 sales with their pricing of the R5. The A9 has better silent shutter, less rolling shutter in action photography, no viewfinder blackouts, better AF, much less overheating, much more native lenses, much better battery life, and you can buy the A9 for for substantially less money (2.900$).

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

Constantin V

Those faces of DP's authors... just looking at their gimmicks reverts me from review.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Welsh

Sorry - I was mistaken - actually the Canon R5 does 8K better than the new Sony. And it has a body that actually feels like a camera, rather than a computer-in-a-box that makes your fingers hurt. This new Sony camera has a (bad) consumer design.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

fjbyrne

@welsh. What lens was on the A1 that made your fingers hurt?

Feb 9, 2021permalink

Zoa

Is Sony going to make a $7500 model with a larger grip, vertical grip, and top display?

It doesn’t look like this is for professionals who prefer those.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Bigger is better? Why? More mass to lug around all day, and more bulk for nothing? Doesn't seem like a good idea at all, just because some DSLR camera grew big back then when you needed a mirror box that slows down everything and causes vibrations.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

There are those who prefer exactly what the OP wrote, namely a larger grip, a vertical grip, and a top display, and will gladly accept a larger body to get it.

Bigger is not always better, but nor is it always worse. The "more bulk" is not for nothing but to get exactly what the OP notes, along with more a more rugged body.

I think you wrote in a recent post about how often people make the mistake of assuming that their preference is universal for everyone else.

I understand that for many the smaller design is preferred, but please also understand that at least for some a larger more robust body would be appreciated.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@ Thoughts R Us: My guess is that "larger is more robust" is not always true. Also, how solid do a camera need to be, and at what cost?

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Cian3307

Bigger is better for some photographers in some situations, eg, when using large telephoto lenses. But bigger isn't always better. I use bodies with and without top displays. I can work with either. It's all a matter of personal preference.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

@Magnar: interesting question. I agree that not in every case does larger mean more durable...but in many cases it does.

But as noted by the OP, there are other reasons to want the larger body style, and if that allows for more protection to be built in then all the better.

There is no one size fits all approach. Obviously the companies cannot put out every camera in multiple sizes, so it is up to the camera companies to decide which trade offs to make and hope enough customers agree with them.

But in general pro's are used to working with larger equipment, esp since it's not just the camera, but the larger lenses, and now often other items like gimbals and external monitors added on.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@ Thoughts R Us: My guess is that Sony is much more interesting in new breeds of photographers, also female photographers, than those who are used with their bulky and heavy DSLR cameras. This is the older generation, the nostalgic photographers, those who are conservative and will be the last ones to change their habits.

In product life cycle theory, those are the least interesting group. They represent the past, and this small group just shrinks.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@Magnar W: Ouch...you touched on so many stereotypes in that post :) I won't get into those...but I will say that the problem with your life cycle theory is that it ignores the impact of smartphones.

So this newer younger generation is coming up primarily thinking of photography in terms of smartphones and many won't ever go into dedicated cameras. That is one reason why there is a shrinking camera market.

I would venture to say that it is those who have grown up thinking about cameras as dedicated equipment, before smartphones, who buy most of the camera equipment and keep the market going. Notice that this would also span a fairly large age group.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

"is that it ignores the impact of smartphones "
Well... I would argue that smartphone market and usage is not that impactful on this end of the photo market. Yes, those playing with smartphone cameras at kids/beginners would have a different mindset. And as Magnar said, a more "full-specked", more "gadgety", even smaller camera would be more attractive.

Personally, I think Sony would benefit having the same guts in a larger, more rigged, probably better cooled as well body, and sell it for $1000 more, and will solve both market segments elegantly. But they probably thought of that and considered it is not worth doing or no worth yet.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

@ Thoughts R Us: If you look at the remaining camera marked, my guess is that the life cycle theory holds water. That's where cameras are sold, since you can't sell cameras those who will not buy a camera anyway.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

Just because the only ‘pro’ grade cameras have been super sized, doesn’t mean that that is what is always preferred. They have been large out of necessity in most cases. Isn’t it nice that *someone* offers a high performance body without being oversized? Why should all cameras look the same?

It’s interesting you bring up gimbals too, because they are an absolute pain in the neck with the full sized bodies.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

sillen

A smaller camera certainly enables more usage than a larger camera does.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

fjbyrne

Sony has apparently been in contact with professional photographers to improve their products. Have the pros been asking for larger cameras? Smaller cameras? Integrated grip? Is Sony asking the wrong people?

Feb 8, 2021permalink

All fair arguments in favor of the smaller body. And as someone noted, Sony probably asked some pro’s for their opinion.

But my guess is that there is no universal preference. So it will be interesting to see how the pro mirrorless market evolves.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Argue all you want, but Sony has a one size fits all plan for cameras over $2000.
The A7Siii for video, the A7Riv for landscapes, and the A1 for sports all have the virtually the same body and ergonomics.

I can't imagine anyone seriously arguing that having a 'professional' body in addition to the current one would be bad for consumers. There are those who want a large top LCD, and there are those that want a larger solid grip. And there are even those that prefer a built in vertical grip.
So why would anyone argue there should not be camera bodies for those people?

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Zoa

Other companies offer at least two sizes.

Sony is ignoring the photographs who want the larger style and forcing something else upon them if they don’t come out with a professional style body.

If the argument is give people what they want, then offer 2 or 3 sizes like Canon and Nikon.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Dont worry Ric360. Some camara companies dont have the technology available to put A1 performance into similar sized body without serious overheating problems. So they will have to make larger cameras, and your wish for large cameras will then be fullfilled, eventually 😊

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

Halftrack

Sony is obviously banking on there being enough people who want the capability that has traditionally been associated with large, dual-grip DSLRs—but without the associated bulk—to make the a1 a profitable endeavor. You can add a battery grip if you want that. Some photographers will no doubt prefer a camera with the second grip built in, but not all. Journalists, travel photographers, wildlife photographers… these are all people who might benefit from a smaller kit. Also, videographers who intend to use this in a rig would likely prefer to have a smaller body.

Not everyone actually *wants* a big, dual-grip DSLR, it's just that for the last decade or two that's what you've needed to use if you wanted the most capable camera available. If you want the best but in a smaller package, Sony has you covered.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Sony's problem is the traditional sports FF camera without the built in grip, without and LCD top plate, and without a large standard grip, normally sells for $2000-$4000 less.
And so all the review are comparing the A1 to the R5 instead of the 1DX3, and most reviews are saying the R5 is a bargain because it has competitive specs (according to Jared Polin), has a BETTER body (according to photographyblog, tech radar and other reviews), and even beats the A1 in a few other categories (IBIS)
If the A1 was priced at $4500 there would be no complaints, but its $2000 and missing all the things photographers expect in a camera over $5000.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

Halftrack

The R5 is competitive specs-wise with the A7R IV. It's not competitive with the A1, it's just that a lot of people won't get much benefit from an A1 because their photography doesn't require its level of capability. The R5 is an excellent camera no doubt, but the A1 is really in a class of its own right now among mirrorless cameras.

Feb 9, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Halftrack, I am only going by the reviews. Check TN, Fro, IR, and dozens of other sites .
They say the R5 is competitive (I am not saying better) with the A1 (their words not mine). In many cases not quite as good (readout and FPS), and in other cases better (IBIS, ergonomics).

Interestingly, many say the R5 has a better body with better ergonomics. (example from pb.com "Body and Design - We Prefer the Canon R5")
On this site in the comparison the R5 body is rated higher than the A7Riv (it won't let me compare the A7Siii to the R5 but its very similar)

I am not a fan of the one size fits all strategy from Sony, especially with a body that many sites say isn't as easy to use or as comfortable as other cameras. No matter which you like better you have to admit the ergonomics of the R6/R5/Z6ii/Z7ii/A1 are very similar. And yet one costs about $3000 more than the rest.

Feb 9, 2021*permalink

"the ergonomics of the R6/R5/Z6ii/Z7ii/A1 are very similar. And yet one costs about $3000 more than the rest."

Well, the same Audi R4 and S4 are the exact same size & style, yet one costs a lot more because mainly of the engine difference. Also a lot of people, who afford it, prefer the more expensive option :)

Feb 9, 2021permalink

biggercountry

I'm relatively new to this, so I'm a little confused by the three different dual gain settings in video. I'm presuming that these settings are all analog gain, pre-ADC. I've never seen anything other than fixed dual gain settings on a "mainstream" camera body (or anything else, if I'm to be honest). Is this new? If not, examples?

Feb 7, 2021permalink

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Sony%20ILCE-7M2_14,Sony%20ILCE-7M3_14,Sony%20ILCE-7RM3_14

I’m not 100% sure but I believe it’s the same amplifier stage. It just kicks in at different stages depending on the picture profile chosen to optimize the dynamic range and noise for each of those different profiles.

We really will need to see the DR/ISO curves to see how many stages there are but since Sony wasn’t touting a triple gain sensor I suspect it’s a dual gain sensor like previous.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

adengappasami

It is based on the picture profile. Lower iso and higher iso. There is a scientific article on the web which goes 5 miles above my head but may give you the answer you are looking for.

The above can give you some idea and the dual gain is basically one at the lower iso range and other at higher iso range.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

ISO is about exposure, whereas gain is amplification. When using log modes the gain is the same but the exposure (because it brings up the exposure level) goes up. So it is the same gain stage on the sensor but the relative exposure is higher.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Since Files sizes are getting so large, how about a Dpreview on this? How are the latest CPUs handling these massive amounts of DATA files? Some folks are saying to not even bother with 8K because of the Large File Sizes.

By Gordon Mah Ung
Executive Editor, PCWorld | FEB 6, 2021 11:41 AM PST

"After months of silence about Apple’s impressive M1 chip, Intel just clapped back with a carefully crafted takedown of the Arm-based chip. It isn’t pretty.

Intel said its testing shows:

An 11th gen Core i7-1185G7 can match or greatly exceed the M1’s performance in a MacBook Pro in both native and non-native applications.
In battery life, it’s pretty much a wash.
The MacBook Pro wouldn’t pass muster to be certified as an Evo laptop.
The M1 just won’t run a lot of software.
The new MacBooks have a range of compatibility issues, from multiple monitor to game controllers , as well as many documented software plug-in problems."

Feb 7, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Yeah Intel looks kind of bad right now.

I have a sub$1000 macBook with 8GB RAM. I downloaded some video samples, 4K 4:2:0, 4K 4:2:2, 8K RAW.
The MacBook had no issues and only shuttered slightly when editing the 8K RAW.
My $1500 I7 32GB PC was brought to its knees.
So words don't mean much to me, its all about results.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

That Intel press release is just trying to cover their you know what because Apple silicon is eating their lunch.

As Ric notes, there are several real world user tests that show this.

And wait until Apple gets around to updating its even more powerful computers with the next generations of Apple silicon...they will be even farther ahead of Intel.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

adengappasami

The next two gen of apple cpu will make intel cringe even more. For creative works Mac is starting to be default choice well ahead of windows as well. This combination of os and hardware will make it easy for customers to choose apple over other product and with these new chips nothing gets compromised.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

You have to look at bitrate, rather than resolution when talking about file sizes. 200Mbps at 8K takes the same space as 200Mbps @ 4K. It will be more taxing on CPU / GPU though. But in terms of storage it’s the same.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

sillen

Thanks for the enjoyable review. Loved it.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

I don't know if I'd call this a real review. We don't know how well the camera works in low light, and they left some questions about AF, especially with birds and animals.
I'd like to see a test of IBIS too.

I'd like to see some pictures of of someone like Jordan holding the camera with a large lens to see if his fingers get cramped, or do a test with the camera wearing gloves. Will thick gloves fit between the grip and a larger lens?

Also, how much is the vertical grip option? Did I miss that?

And finally I look forward to the studio scene comparisons. I'll be curious to if the pixel binned 4K is as good as the A7iii 4K. And PLEASE add some high ISO video captures to the video comparison scene.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Especially since most of the reviews seem to be done by Sony Ambassadors and the like. They have many agreements, some of which some reviewers don't seem want to admit. So yea, way to soon to Declare King of the World. It would be an massive failure if it didn't come out way on top, considering the price.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

If you ignore the ambassadors (ignore the Canon ones too), everyone seems to compare this to the R5.

It is a good comparison vs the R5.

IQ seems equal. At IR they struggle to see a resolution difference. They said the lens makes the difference.

Pros:
It has faster sensor readout
shoots 30 FPS.
Body may be a little stronger
Can shoot unlimited video (but not the quality of the R5)
Slightly smaller body.
Better EVF

R5 pros:
8K RAW for 25 minutes.
4K oversampled from 8K for 25 minutes.
Top LCD
Larger back LCD
Better IBIS
Larger grip with room for large fingers.

The jury is out on the AF, That bird AF didn't look reliable in the video. Maybe user error.

To me they both look good. Only one is close to affordable for most though.

The elephant in the room is the R1. Will it have the rumored global shutter? With it have a 20-25FPS mechanical shutter with the R5 sensor?
Iy should have no overheating problems and have a professional body like the 1DX3 and unlike these.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

The key is what Ric 360 said: both the R5 and a1 look good; both are fantastic; I am sure owners of either will be thrilled with the results and the user experience.

But it is an accomplishment for Canon that they have a $3800 camera going head to head against a $6500 one.

Anytime anyone compares the two, the R5 is being given a huge compliment by default.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Funny thing, not that long ago, there was an huge debate on these boards of IQ full frame vs aps-c where I know for certain I stated FF is better whereas some claimed there wasn't much of a difference these days. But now with the A1, some are claiming otherwise? So with Medium Format coming down in price, those Debates will only heat up. Concerning overheating, that is yet to be determined fully.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

I am going to throw the A7Riv in to mix too. I've talked to birders and sports shooters who say 10 FPS is fast enough and anything faster is a waste and fills up their card.
It has a great 10 FPS mechanical shutter and a 61MP sensor. It does not compare for video, but it costs less than both the R5 and A1.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

Check out this article that Mike Ran shared:
https://reedhoffmann.com/five-pros-share-their-autofocus-tips/

There's a dude using a Nikon D780, and a D500...one of the best sports pro's in the world...and he's using cameras that most consider to be "consumer" grade and not "pro" grade...and that cost $2300 and $1500 respectively, and are considered by some to use "old" tech.

So the point is that there are many cameras out there capable of capturing fast action.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

I just saw on the sidelines at the Super Bowl someone with a 7D or maybe 7Dii.
Those are very popular with sports photographers even though they are older.
They have large comfortable bodies and controls the pros are familiar with (the most important factor in a camera). And they use the greatest line of sports lenses ever made.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Cian3307

Everyone comparing the A1 to the R5. The A1 is Sony's top of the range pro body. Canon don't have a top of range mirrorless pro body yet, wait for the R1 to make direct comparisons. As some one said above, it is a testament to how good the R5 is that it is being compared to the A1, but it isn't quite in the same league. The R1 is going to have to be very good to compete with the A1. Anyway, I will probably never buy either of them.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Yes, exactly.
As Ric said, you can throw in the A7R 4 and that is cheaper than the R5.
It just depends on the needs ... can you compare it? sure. And if the performance of the more reasonable camera will suit you, no need to buy more expensive. Is the R5 comparable - as in provides in those areas where this is unique? Not.

If you need/want ES as good as mechanical one, there is only one camera that can do that. And probably the coming $9000 R1 will have to do it to be competitive :)

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

Well let’s look at the R6 vs the 1DX III then shall we? They use basically the same sensor and have many of the same features. Like all the pro bodies that have come before, you pay (quite a bit) more to eek out that little bit more performance. Canon have usually wrapped theirs up in a big hulking body which many use to justify the price difference. But because Sony have chosen to use a small frame there seems to be more confusion over product positioning. No doubt many of these features will make their way into lesser bodies. This isn’t where Sony begins and ends, this is a statement about the top, a pretty convincing one.

It too also differs away from the ‘pro body’ status quo by finally offering top tier resolution and non-gimped video. Which is not something we’ve seen before (1DX III is somewhat of an exception, but compared to the R5 is still not their top product and misses other key features).

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Wiel

Wow, all the trolls together.....

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Ric360 - my guess is that the R1 will have significantly lower resolution than the R5 or a1 - probably around 24-30MP. The primary objectives will I think be:

Best possible high ISO / low light performance.
Best possible weather sealing, shock-proofing and durability.
20fps or faster.
Integral vertical grip with high-performance battery.
Tilting hi-res touchscreen.
High magnification 5.76K EVF.
Industry-best AF aquisition and tracking.

I also expect them to provide some *unique* features, one of which may be global shutter.

Just my opinion.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

badi - R1 won't cost $9000.

R5 launched at about $500 more than 5DMkiv

R1 will probably launch at about $500 more than 1Dxiii.

It will be competitive with a1, because it will have a lower specification in some areas (e.g. sensor MP) and a higher specification in other areas (e.g. integrated vertical grip).

Feb 8, 2021permalink

99% won't even notice the difference.
-----------------------------

Full-frame camera or smartphone image can you tell?

In an increasing number of cases it is hard to tell the difference between a photo taken with a smartphone and one of the same scene captured with a full-frame camera. The simple clues that used to give smartphones away aren’t always reliable any more. Below are a pair of images, one taken with a Google Pixel 3 and the other with a Sony a7R III. Can you tell which was taken using a phone?

Smartphones vs Cameras: Closing the gap on image quality
Posted on March 19, 2020 by David Cardinal

Smartphones vs Cameras: Closing the gap on image qualitywww.dxomark.com › smartphones-vs-cameras-closing-...
Mar 19, 2020

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Belphegor

Sorry I belong to the remaining 1%. Period

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

Maybe in the future... but for the moment, just try shooting a 5 years old kid with any phone you want, be it Pixel 5 or Iphone 2025, and it won't hold a candle to any Canon rebel from the last decade(s). Don't event think of real sports or large print. I would guess that 99% will not *know* the difference, but would notice the better image :)

Feb 8, 2021permalink

AKH

In good light smart phone images can look alright and especially on a small phone screen, but otherwise the difference you can get in IQ with a camera with a bigger sensor from 1" and up is huge.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

AKH

In good light smart phone images can look alright and especially on a small phone screen, but otherwise the difference you can get in IQ with a camera with a bigger sensor from 1" and up is huge.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

B2NI - I'm in the 1%.

Smartphone images at low ISO are fine on a laptop, but compare a high ISO smartphone image with an FF image, filling a 4k or 5k desktop monitor, and you'll be in for a shock :-)

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Seems Jordan really likes the camera - a do it all machine that happens to be the fastest out there

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Jack of all trades.......🤔

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Lord Jack given the price......😊

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Sony needs to next make this camera with a professional body.

Something with a top display and a real grip that doesn’t squeeze you fingers next to the lens.
Something with a vertical grip so you don’t have to pay extra like an entry level FF camera.
Something with good rear LCD

Ergonomically this is a $3500 camera. They need to one with a pro style body next.

I just realized no one is comparing this to pro bodies. All the comparisons are to $3000 bodies. Makes sense.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

If I’m buying a $6500 pro body I want it to do everything. 1DX III and D6 etc are too big for a gimbal. Too big to take for any casual shooting or on holidays etc. Many people shooting those bodies (myself included) usually have to end up with whole second systems to satisfy personal usage and many video tasks. They become quite singular in their function.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

How can such small battery yield so good battery time considering 50Mpxl ¤ 30fps and 8k machinery? Why is it not generating much waste heat energy like other 8k camera or other SLR high fps cameras?

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

PXL700

I have to suspect, the many years old LCD that they've been using for years (and seems to gather the angst of many), is one part of the equation to keep power usage down.

You can get a high res LCD but it will inherently burn more battery power. something got to give...

Feb 7, 2021permalink

It doesnt seem reasonable to me that the screen is the main concern. If so then do you think it is the screen that overheats the Canon R5 so badly?
And what about the A1 very high resolution and high fps viewfinder, wouldnt that then consume much power?

Nah, it has to be something else than the screen.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

There is no excuse for the low quality LCD screen...it's not a matter of battery power.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

The screen is not the cause. Certainly the superior EVF in the A1 would equalize the battery life if that were the case. But the Sony while using the EVF still destroys in battery life.

It has to be the power consumption of the sensor and/or the image processor. It’s the only thing left. And it makes sense when you analyze the numbers. Given the batteries have very similar capacities the Sony is simply doing the job while using much less of it. Generating much less heat in the process enabling longer recording times.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

So either the Sony A1/A7/A9 imaging pipelines are very efficient, or the Canon R5 processor and sensor need much excessive power.
Perhaps Canon were so stressed to catch up on Sony ML performance that they had no choice but to sacrifice sensor efficiency. Or Canon simply didnt have the tech to make it efficient. I dont know which is worst, the R5 short battery life or the overheating. Perhaps the overheating.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Sony have a 5 year head start in FF mirrorless technology. They also got crushed with the bad battery life comments in the early days.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Jen Bruntnant

Looking forward to getting my hands on A1 ...

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@nils.
"Of course you can take good pictures with the Fuji, assuming neither the cameraman nor the objects moving, assuming there is a reasonable lens available for each job (tele? fast AF? 3rd parties? stealthy?), etc. So for a niche set of scenarios the Fuji can deliver really good IQ."
----------------------------------
What?????

Fujifilm GFX100S Medium Format Camera with Ab Sesay

"Go in studio with Photographer Ab Sesay using both continuous lights and strobes to test drive the new Fujifilm GFX100S Large Format Digital Camera. The GFX100S Sets a new bar. Ab Sesay test out is IBIS shooting handheld at 1/15 of a second. He pushes the ISO to a 6400 still getting brilliant tonality and superb sharpness. Watch this video to see his first impressions of how responsive the camera is when shooting dance, beauty, and fashion photography. "It's simply time for more photographers to setup up into large format digital photography. The restrictions of size and price are no longer there."

Feb 7, 2021permalink

The Fuji GFX series has suprisingly good AF, esp. their GFX 100 series. You can capture most things with the AF of the GFX 100s.

For things like sports and wildlife, you can still get great shots with the Fuji, but won't of course have quite the odds of capturing that decisive moment as with a camera more built for high speed action, like the a1 or R5.

But honestly, for that $6000 or so price point, for most people that Fuji GFX 100s should be in consideration. The image quality is next level.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

What’s the longest lens on GFX? 250mm (200mm equivalent)?

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Johans81

This camera is awesome and i Guess the Price is not that High considering what you get . But i Will still rather buy Canon r5 for almost half the Price. Both have 10fps with the mecanichal shutter and ever if Sonys autofocus is alittle bit faster faster it Will be just marginal not 3600 dollars faster. Canons 4k hq is awesome to. The one thing thatmakes this camera alittle tempting is the he viiewfindee but canons is good to lycklig . Sony is sportig out awesome cameras and together with Canon they Will dominate the ff marker

Feb 7, 2021permalink

CanadianPhotog

We need more Jordan in front of the camera!

Feb 7, 2021permalink

ovlov

Canon has to go back to the tracing board. Bummer.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

FuhTeng

I'm sure Canon and Nikon have been working on their flagship for some time. Camera development is not a one year or even two year process, particularly not for cameras in this price bracket. The R5 was almost there at 2/3 the price. Nikon and Canon's responses are coming, very likely this year. They will have some advantages and some disadvantages compared to the A1 and that's fine.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@FuhTeng

No, the R5 isn't 'almost there'. The R5 sensor read-out is very fast for it's pixel density - about 1/60, which is twice the speed of the similar resolution A7rIII, but this camera has a readout speed of ≈1/240, which makes it almost as fast as a mechanical shutter. In fact it's possible to use the camera in electronic shutter with no penalty whatsoever, unlike the R5 or any other camera, even the A9/9II.

That is a significant achievement and would be lauded in the comments if it had been achieved by Canon or Nikon. As it is the camera is being damned with faint praise or being criticised at the pettiest level imaginable, over it's rear screen for example.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

For all practical purposes the R5 is yes, almost there, with the a1...and in some cases right there and even better. But sure, if people instead of taking pictures want to fixate on the read speed. As usual, some make the case for Sony based on a spec sheet rather than real world use. But people when they take pictures don't go out and read the spec sheet.

But that's why so many reviewers are comparing the R5 to the a1, because they are very similar. And if a $3800 R5 is being compared with the $6500 a1 then that is a win for the R5.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@Rubber...
Oh I am sure that you would have been FULL of praise had it been a Canon or Nikon........🤣😂😂
The rear screen IS disappointing at this price - oh yes and the price....the A1 is 71% more expensive than the R5......to get 10 minutes more 8K and 30 rather than 20 fps - seems a tad dear.......

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@Thoughts R Us
For a Camera that yet to be properly Vetted, some folks are really getting ahead of themselves. Tony Northrup has already hinted at some issues which he has apparently consulted with Sony on. So this is far from an settled, by Far King of the World issue.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

2ovlov
Whats a 'tracing board'? Is that something you use a lot........?

Feb 7, 2021permalink

so many people feel threatened already by the A1 that they need to be agressive against it. Why not be happy when a great camera comes along?

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Why do so many people feel threatened already by the A1 being compared unfavourably with ANYTHING else that they need to be aggressive. Why not be happy that better alternatives exist for many people.....😊

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@Kandid

If Canon or Nikon had made a camera that essentially obsoleted the mechanical shutter I would have praised it. That is an extremely significant achievement.

Unfortunately they haven't even come close to making a camera that matches the A9's 1/160 readout.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

To be clear the mechanical shutter is not obsolete, and despite the hype still has benefits over an electronic shutter. One large one overlooked is the added cost of making stacked sensor like this.
If there was no reason for a mechanical shutter the camera would not have one, but even Sony realizes it is necessary.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@ Ric360 - yes there may be a place for mechanical shutters in low cost cameras for quit a bit longer.

But for the highest performance the mechanical shutter has already lost. There is no mechanical shutter that can keep up with latest ML cameras silent shutters fps. And now the silent shutter of the A1 is so fast you dont need to switch to mechanical in any scenario.

Dont worry, eventually there will be fast and reliable silent shutters comming to your favorite brand. It may take 2-3 years, but eventually it will happen.

Meanwhile if you want lower price silent shutter that still performs very well you have the A9. It sells for 2.900$ and still outperforms any CaNikon shutter, even those in the CaNikon 6500$ class.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

No one has yet to show any photos that were taken with the a1 that could not be taken with other comparable cameras. Show me the difference. Show me the types of shots that require an a1, or at least an a9/a9II, that cannot be made with other cameras.

Otherwise when you talk superiority in specs, it's all academic and means nothing.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

" Show me the types of shots that require an a1, or at least an a9/a9II, that cannot be made with other cameras. "

Same could be say other way round. That is what you are saying is that there is no point of buying canon over sony too.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Sony put a mechanical shutter on the $6500 camera. If it was not necessary they would have left it off.

Sony knew they could not sell this camera without a mechanical shutter.
If they had a 20 FPS mechanical shutter they would have put it on the camera too.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

For 71% more (71%!) than an R5 I expected more that nerdo tin hat nonsense about sensor read out speed......

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

@zxaar: I've been saying for a while that technical differences among cameras are largely irrelevant and so one should choose based more on factors like ergonomic preferences and such.

Mike posted a link to an interview with 5 of the best pro sports photographers who will be covering the Super Bowl and one even shoots with a D780...which most would not consider to be a "pro" camera...yet he gets the shots and is a well renowned pro in his field. Yet imagine a debate on this forum over pro sports cameras...if someone even mentioned a D780 in the conversation they would be laughed at by most commenters here.

Really all of these debates over technical matters have gotten way overblown.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@Thought R Us

What you said is like saying Usain Bolt outruns me every single time bare feet. Hence, running shoes are way overblown. 🤣🤣🤣

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

@Fengshui
No - what he is saying is that Usain Bolt runs really fast in $3800 training shoes and is unlikely to go faster in $6500 training shoes just because they have solid gold spikes.....😊

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@Kandid
I doubt Usain Bolt runs quicker in $3800 training shoes than bare feet anyway. On the other hands, he could run more comfortable in a pair of shoes.

What I am trying to say is, smartphones were used in taking the winning photos of photo contests. Does it disprove the advantages of a dedicated camera in some situations? Not necessary.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

@Fengshui
Agree with your last point - not sure what it has to do with A1.....?

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@Ric 360

"To be clear the mechanical shutter is not obsolete, and despite the hype still has benefits over an electronic shutter."

There is no hype. The A1's sensor reads out at 1/240. Mechanical shutters fire @ 1/250-300. What are the benefits of the mechanical shutter?

Feb 8, 2021permalink

“ I've been saying for a while that technical differences among cameras are largely irrelevant”

You sure liked to bang on about the technical differences with the R5. Still do.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

“ No one has yet to show any photos that were taken with the a1 that could not be taken with other comparable cameras. Show me the difference. Show me the types of shots that require an a1, or at least an a9/a9II, that cannot be made with other cameras.”

Well assuming you need ~20fps+ (which is why you’d be looking at these cameras), then yeah, there’s a bloody big difference between 1/60th sensor readout and 1/240th in action photography.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@rubber...
If a mechanical shutter is redundant why is it on the gold plated A1 then ❓❓❓❓❓❓

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Well the electronic shutter already matches pretty much every other mechanical focal plane shutter out there. But their new mechanical shutter goes beyond that, surpassing everyone else’s and their own electronic shutter. But assuming existing mechanical shutters were fine for you, this electronic one will be too. Unlike ANY other electronic (non-global) shutter that has come before.

It’s like saying ‘well if AF is so good, why do they bother having manual focus options’.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

@Kandid

The mechanical shutter closes over the sensor when you remove the lens to protect it. It also offers 1/500 an 1/400 flash sync for high speed shooting.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@Kandid
I was responding to @TRU about that a single cameraman using D780 means A1 technical matters being way overblown.

Whether 1/240s e-shutter, 30 fps, etc are meaningful, depends on the situation. For those don’t need them, yeah, they are meaningless. But they can be invaluable for those need it.

I am sure no black out alone is a game changer. High speed photography has its place as well. All these requires high fps e-shutter.

And A1 provides a high resolution solution for the above situation for the first time. That’s what to do with A1.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

@fengshui
Weeeellll - it’s not a choice between 30fps and nothing is it - it’s a choice between 20 and 30 FPS.....increasingly marginal....

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@elisam, rubber...
So - mechanical shutters are redundant unless they are in a Sony.....🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣. Typical...

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Erm, well because Sony are the only ones with a usable electronic shutter. Plus they are the only ones with a mechanical shutter with sync speeds of 1/400th / 1/500th sec. IF there was this kind of electronic shutter in say an R5, then that definitely would be redundant. Once other brands do too, it will be equally redundant.

Just like Canon users didn’t want IBIS until Canon had IBIS, then it was the best thing ever and way better than Sony.

Redundant is probably not the right word (I didn’t use it before), more like unnecessary in 99% of use cases, so long as you have an electronic shutter with similar capabilities. Once electronic shutters are working at 1/500th and 1/1000th then there will be almost certainly no use for a mechanical one.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

“ the A1 is 71% more expensive than the R5......to get 10 minutes more 8K and 30 rather than 20 fps - seems a tad dear.......”

The 1DX III is 71% more expensive for no 8K, only 20MP, no IBIS, barely faster, no articulating screen and so on.

The Sony records 8K for well over an hour. Does the R5? 30fps vs 20fps... wow and I remember when Canon / Nikon fanboys would gush over an extra 1 or 2 fps in a top end camera. Like wait 4 years and get 16fps vs 14fps. SO worth the wait. But because it’s a Sony an extra 10fps suddenly has no value.

Oh and let’s not forget the gushing about the R5 doing 20fps (electronic with bad rolling shutter mind) over the A7R IV doing what, 12 or something? Yeah I’m sure you thought that was pretty important, when it was a ‘win’ for Canon.

*sigh*

Feb 8, 2021permalink

https://www.dailyadvent.com/news/bc1e75824b80a71a9cd9b2db6adfb41f-The-Sony-A1-makes-the-Canon-EOS-R5-look-like-a-bargain

Double post

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

Since you mentioned the R5.

The R5 is still the #1 mirrorless camera on Amazon.
Huge win for Canon. Its been #1 at Amazon and Map camera for months.

The A1 is the best marketing campaign for the R5. A few months back $3900 was said to be too much to pay for a camera, but now countless articles are pointing out that the R5 is a bargain.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

@Elisam

Full scale deflection for the hypocrisy needle, with these people.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Best-Sellers-Electronics-Mirrorless-Cameras/zgbs/electronics/430660031/ref=zg_bs_pg_1?_encoding=UTF8&pg=1

@Ric 360

The R5 is not even in the top hundred:

The best selling FF milc is the A7III at #8.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@Kandid

Sure. I agree the difference between 20 fps and 30 fps might not matter in conventional continuous shots. However, no black out is the game changer I've mentioned earlier.

Even no black out at 20 fps is still stuttering. 30 fps no black out is perceptional much smoother and certainly helps chasing the subject.

Of course, fps is just 1 of the factors. Latency and clarity are as important as fps which A1 should beat R5 at both as well.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

@feng
For 71% more cash I would expect it would.......

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@Elisam
The only ‘sigh’ is the sad realisation creeping in among even the diehards that $6500 is toooo much for such marginal (real I grant you) improvements...

Feb 8, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Check Tech Radar, IR, PhotographyBlog, and other reviews.
"Canon EOS R5 is a Bargain" is the general conclusion.

What Sony has done is tell everyone the R5 is a bargain and their camera is overpriced.

btw check those reviews most say the R5 has a better body too.

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

R5 is overheating junk. Thats what A1 shows.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

So the R5, the best selling mirrorless camera for the past couple months, and the one several sites say is a bargain compared to the A1, is overheating junk?

Is this the same R5 this site named Product of the year and best camera for portraits, and best high resolution camera?
That R5 you say is junk?
Doesn't that say more about your bitterness than the camera?

Anyway you are entitle to that opinion. zxaar says DPR's product of the year and the best selling mirrorless camera on Amazon is junk.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

@Ric360
Well - you know there are ‘normal’ brand disciples who think their beloveds can do no wrong...? Well I’m afraid zxaar isn’t one of those 🤪🤪🤪 🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣🤣😂🤣😂😂😂

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

@zxaar
At least it’s value for money overheating junk 💵💵💰💰🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣🤣😂🤣.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

DomD

I would like to hear your thoughts on the Fuji 100S VS Sony a1 comparisons. Similar price, both very high end. Sounds to me like the Sony is the no brainer, but still: would you ever buy a 100S over the a1?

Feb 7, 2021permalink

If you care about ultimate image quality, like for portraits and landscapes, then the fuji 100s is probably the better choice.

And really the speed of the Fuji AF is not that bad; it's really suitable for everything but fast action. And it's very accurate.

So one could say that for anything other than super fast action, the Fuji is better due to its better IQ.

Now that is on the stills front. For video, it's a different story as the a1 obviously offers more video features. But even then the Fuji is not bad, and is capable of producing some fine videos.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

There are lots of cases where you would buy a GFX100S over the Sony. Image quality is going to be better being the main one. The Sony is the top of doing everything, but not the best at doing everything. The GFX100S has better IQ and trades rounded capability to achieve this. Sony trades absolute IQ for being pretty much the top of the game in basically every other area (body size is debatable).

Feb 8, 2021permalink

jpeghorror

I don't comment on cameras like this because I'm not in the market, except for the comment I'm writing now which isn't a comment on the camera itself but rather a comment on commenting. In the future, when other cameras like this are announced and I don't comment on them, please refer to this comment as my comment on said camera.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Great review guys! and a great camera it seems. There is no photo camera alternative with that fast sensor and IQ performance. And based on CaNikon current track record there wont be any alternative for another 3 years.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

@nils
There are already alternatives.....😊

Feb 7, 2021permalink

unfortunately there is none alternative with that readout speed combined with the IQ. There isnt even an alternative with double the readout time 😊
But in 3 years there could potentially be a CaNikon alternative. Lets hope they catch up.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

Canon brought us 8k first to FF, Sony has just now caught up. Sony brought us an FF camera that is nearly 3 Grand more than what Nikon and or Canon is offering. So no, it won't be that hard to catch up. Unfortunately for Sony.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Canon hasnt even caught up with A9 (2017) sensor speed 😊

Feb 7, 2021permalink

The A9 does not offer 8k nor the now legendary Bird Eye AF of the Canon R5 plus it's better image stabilization. Let me know when it does.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

Having unreliable 8k on one card slot doesn't solve the problems with a slow sensor unfortunately. If you cant trust the silent shutter then you cant. Wobble wobble.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

When the A9 catches up, let me know.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

and if you truly want reliable 8k there is now the A1 that can record 8k on two card slots and doesn't need to do as R5 sitting on the bench an hour panting from overheating after a clips of 8k.
Thats just an extra A1 bonus on top of all the fast silent shutter benefits 😊

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@BackToNature1

The second FF stacked sensor to hit the market three years after the A9 is also a Sony product. Nilsjohan is pointing out that there has been zero progress amongst Sony's competitors with this technology. Not sure why you're talking about IBIS or 8K.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@nilsjohan
If you want 8k, legendary Bird Eye AF, or better IBIS, that would be the Canon R5 as opposed to the A9. Thanks for agreeing.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

If all people did was talk about stacked sensors and read speed, then sure the a1 shines. But last I looked a camera was more than that. And photographers when they go out to shoot don't care about reading spec sheets.

It's funny how the only defense one can offer for the a1 relates to specs that most people cannot even relate to.

Once you start arguing from arcane specs, you've lost the argument. Show me tangible differences in output. Show me where the a1 gets shots that others cannot. The we can talk.

For instance, look at the Fuji GFX 100s gallery and the a1 gallery. The Fuji clearly has the better IQ. Now the a1 is still a fine camera, but let's not pretend it's best in everything. And with the Fuji one can clearly point to images and see a real difference without resorting to quoting a spec sheet.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@ TRU - sorry, I assumed it was well known the advanteges of fast sensors. It has been descibed many times also by DPReview: You can always rely on the silent shutter, never have to switch to mechanical, no banding, vertical lines remain vertical, less wearing down moving mechaninal parts, less vibrations and shutter shocks, higher fps, you can improve many aspects of a camera with SW upgrades over time but not the shutter so its increadibly useful to get a fast silent shutter in your camera platform from the beginning, etc

Its pretty telling that you need to compare the worlds fastest camera A1 with the latest MF camera to try to find something where its challenged 😊
Of course you can take good pictures with the Fuji, assuming neither the cameraman nor the objects moving, assuming there is a reasonable lens available for each job (tele? fast AF? 3rd parties? stealthy?), etc. So for a niche set of scenarios the Fuji can deliver really good IQ.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

@nils..
So for a niche set of scenarios the 100mp medium format Fuji is best but for everything else the 50MP more expensive smaller sensor Sony is best - not biased at all are you ? 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂😂🤣😂😂

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@Thoughts R Us

"It's funny how the only defense one can offer for the a1 relates to specs that most people cannot even relate to."

No one is 'defending' the A1 - it doesn't need defending. It's clearly an exceptional product.

There are lots of people trying to trash it, like you and Kandid and others. Kandid has never had much in his locker beyond a tremor in his emoji finger, but you have plumbed new levels of nonsense to do it - calling a 50mp sensor that reads out at almost the same speed as a mechanical shutter an 'arcane spec' for example. It is a hugely significant achievement that would cause you to dissolve into a gibbering wreck, were it a Canon achievement.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@Nilsjohan: I have news for you: you don't need the fastest AF in town to capture most things that move. I've used the GFX 100 on slow moving birds and it performed wonderfully. It wouldn't be my first choice for high speed action but it can work. And of course for landscapes, portraits, etc...the Fuji medium format has a look above FF.

I can just as easily say that the Fuji is best for most situations, since most photographers are not photographing fast action. I only brought up the Fuji because it was released at the same time as a1 and has almost the same price, actually $500 less.

And for you and Rubber Dials, I have news for you: when most photographers are out shooting, no one is thinking of whether this is using mechanical or e shutter...only if it gets the results.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@ TRU - thats the thing, when you are out shooting with a good silent shutter in combination with a good AF system then you can take on anything, no need to worry about mechanical noise or vibrations, no worry disturbing people or ruining occasions, no need to worry about speed in fps/AF if there is fast or sudden motion. You are just set to take on anything. The camera gets out of your way.

btw nice to hear you birding with MF camera. I would love to see you birding with a 600mm F4 on the Fuji. Can you send send me an idol picture 😊

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

Are you sure it's just off-camera flash, as another commentator suggested non-Sony hotshoe flashes all had the lower sync speed?

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Jordan (I think) clarified this below. Any third party TTL capable trigger made for the Sony multi interface shoe should work at 1/200 in electronic or 1/400 in mechanical. So those Godox triggers, as an example work fine.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

I was thinking of a 3rd party flash in the HotShoe.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

I think a third party flash like a V860II designed for the Sony hotshoe will also work. But someone will have to test to be sure.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Lessiter

The duck eye focusing bit was quite funny. There was a similar thing with a Fuji review a while ago. The duck situation would be super simple and reliable with center point focus recompose or some basic tracking. Same thing when Chris was disappointed with face detect in a crowd at 25m distance to subject.

In neither scenario is the dof thin enough to warrant in the former eye detect or in the latter face detect. Center point where you want to focus is plenty good enough with at these distances and with the speed of movement of the subject.

I'm certain there are situations where eye detect and tracking is useful but these reviews just show how silly it is for lots of situations. Unless perfectly reliable tech like this will be a pain in the butt. Like having Microsoft Clippy in your camera.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Adam007

Actually, you should try it. I just returned a Sony A7riv (for some idiosyncratic image-rendering reasons; it may come back to me at some point). The eye-AF really is amazing, and while I prefer to OVF experience overall, I can understand why some ML lovers report that going back to DSLR seems impossible to imagine. I'm not sure how far the duck was in this shot; had it been 25 feet away the DOF at 1.8 (the 135 wide open) is 1.1 feet. Almost any focus-recompose at that DOF will mean absolute sharpness is not where you want it most. Usable, I am sure, but the real benefit of this technology is that you get to shoot wide-open , with unlimited compositional flexibility. with no real tradeoffs in terms of keepers. And that's true whether you're up close or at medium distances. I agree with your point that the tech has to be bullet-proof to avoid being irritating at times. It isn't, but man is it close.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

"Agencies and action Pros: Sorry, I can't hear you over the important work I'm focusing on. (Sony A1) Agencies: "Preordered."

Funny how none of that has slowed down over the Years, the massive drop in Camera Sales. Agencies, "Preordered." isn't going to SAVE the Camera Industry because over the last 10 years, the results have been to say the least, horrendous.

The Longest expansion in America Economic History hasn't been a savior to the Industry. But sure, go ahead think Agencies, "Preordered." somehow will save it.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

BrexitDefCom3

People need to chill a little. All of the photographs so far made with this alpha 1 can easily be duplicated in content & quality by a secondhand D800 using manual lenses. The Sony f1.8 135mm costs £1600 new, the 35mm f1.4 is £1500, but you could using adaptors & focus peaking, be using a 135mm f2.8 Nikkor and a 35mm f2.0 costing about £250 for both secondhand, and get identical results on the Alpha 1.
What you cannot get, of course is the amazing autofocus accuracy in video of guys running in a zig-zag fashion straight at the camera, but nobody has yet said whether this degree of accuracy requires the top GM primes and zooms to work, as it may, given that the faster they are, and the more they cost, the greater the amount of light they transmit and ? the better the autofocus continuous results are likely to be with the same settings, compared to the less expensive equivalent Sony Lenses.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

BrexitDefCom3

Ithink there ARE quality control issues at work here, as the image quality from shots made by Watson and Ted Forbes (Sony A1 best sensor Sony has made-Youtube) seem rather better and the high iso performance especially, better than the camera Dpreview was using in Seattle for its first samples.
There is another problem which you can see at about 13:20 in Ted Forbes youtube video and I have posted a copy of it in my Gallery. It shows clearly that the shutter curtain is tilted at an angle: at least it appears to be the bottom of the mechanical shutter curtain, as it is clearly infront of the sensor, and from the look of it will breakdown very soon. So we seem to be looking at to put it politely considerable sample variation from the press samples sent out by the manufacturer.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

"I think" ... well, well.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

BrentSchumer

People in these comments: "The A1 is way overpriced; $6,500 is crazy!"
Those same people: "Of course $6,500 is an appropriate price for the D6 / 1D X III!"
Agencies: "Preordered."

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

Pretty much.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

I seem to remember some complaining about the high price of the Canon and Nikon pro bodies in those discussions. I think anytime you have a camera with this sort of price you will have people complaining about the price.

But there is this: the 1DXIII and D6 seem like they should be more expensive than the other cameras, due to their build quality. People can understand that. They are like tanks. They are like those big trucks you can buy for a premium and no one expects them to be priced like a Honda Civic.

I think Sony could have and should have taken this new product line as an opportunity to upgrade their body into something a bit stronger and more refined. That wouldn't have meant the same size as Canon/Nikon pro bodies but something a bit more substantial.

Not only would that have given it more durability but it would have also signaled to the market that this is a camera more worthy of that high price tag.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Bigger is better? That’s a pretty shallow view. I’m glad Sony doesn’t prescribe to this belief. You can keep your 1DXIII.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

The Silver Nemesis

@Mike: I would say that sometimes yes, sometimes no (if “bigger” = integrated grip ergonomics benefit). However: in a certain line of work, tougher is better. Always was. But more about this in a future episode. Now it cannot be done - A1 is a rookie, no “combat” experience.😉

Feb 7, 2021permalink

If you were in a car accident, would you rather it be in a bigger car or smaller?

Sometimes bigger is better. We still don't know the long term reliability of Sony bodies out in the most rigorous conditions, esp. in those tough environments where the pro's venture into. We do know that the Canon/Nikon pro bodies are legendary for what they have endured and still kept functioning.

But notice it doesn't have to be that much bigger. There are ways to use premium materials and other tricks to get to a better build. The Leica Q2 is a more substantial body but not large at all.

Look at Apple. They give you small/light products but they feel substantial and built with quality.

Also, perception matters as I am sure the Sony marketing people would agree. And having a more substantial feel would help justify the cost in the minds of some.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Yes I guess if an A1 is in a collision with a 1DXIII the 1DXIII with its higher weight would have an advantage.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

The Silver Nemesis

@Thoughts: there is no EURO NCAP testing for cameras...

Feb 7, 2021permalink

There are all sorts of situations that the best pro's have used the Canon/Nikon pro bodies in and they've held up like a champ. No one knows if the Sony could do so.

I've seen one guy put his Nikon pro body on the ground in very snowy conditions to take images of certain creatures like the snowy hair. His camera and lens are virtually covered in snow, the ground is freezing. Would a Sony hold up? Who knows?

Canon and Nikon pro bodies have been through extreme conditions like blazing temps in the desert, the super cold, heavy rain, they've been dropped, covered in mud, sand, snow, etc...and still worked perfectly.

Now again, no one knows if the Sony's could hold up. But if you had to bet a paying job on one, which would you choose? If you had an assignment for Nat Geo to go to some place with extreme conditions, which would you put your bets on?

Feb 7, 2021permalink

What do you mean no one knows?
The A9 has been out for nearly 4 years? Where are all the reports of them falling apart?

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@MikeRan

"Where are all the reports of them falling apart?" Clearly in his usual fancy imagination.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Yes. That’s the point.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

BrentSchumer

Purported extreme weather durability is only one feature of pro bodies that is relentlessly flogged by people who are trying to explain why THIS $6,500 camera is overpriced but OTHERS are not. And it's often not even a primary concern.

If you're looking for the absolute best autofocus, speed, and resolution for the Summer Olympics or want the absolute best silent shots as part of the White House Press Corps, why would you worry about your camera surviving submersion in mud? The A1 brings a lot of unique features to the table to justify its price tag.

And of course, the people flogging "extreme durability" will immediately change their tune when Canon and Nikon's own $6,500 mirrorless bodies come out. Then it will be something else to make up the gap like "color science."

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Very well stated. Agree 100%

Feb 7, 2021permalink

"The A9 has been out for nearly 4 years? Where are all the reports of them falling apart?"

Where are the reports of them being used in extreme environmental conditions? There are many photographers using the Canon/Nikon pro bodies with such reports, but not so much from the Sony contingent.

And I bet when Canon/Nikon release their highest pro mirrorless bodies they will have better build quality. The Canon R5/R6/R and the Nikon Z6/Z7 are already better built than the Sony models.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

I think you have an Oedipous Complex.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4456565

@TRU

Here you can see various reports of REAL users experience for various Sony cameras. Not just false and misleading information that you are trying to spread. I can provide more but I know that your arrogance will prevent you from admitting.

I use mine in extreme hot conditions 50+ degrees Celsius, 80+% humidity and dusty weather without any issues.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

le_alain

Never have such a bad quality phone thant the IIIg s
worst quality for calling, worst built quality.
I'll never go apple again

Feb 11, 2021*permalink

"If you're looking for a compact 8K camera, this is actually the best option out there."

Pretty impressive considering the stills specs.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Low bit rate 4::2:0 8k

8k now is something necessary

Feb 7, 2021permalink

If you read all the DPR comments from the canon fanboys 8k was a big deal!!!
Ha

Feb 8, 2021*permalink

Why did Sony limit 8k like that?

No RAW, 4:2:0, low bit rate.

Are they protecting professional video? Or can’t it process 4:2:2 and RAW?

And isn’t strange that even with the low specs all the Sony ambassadors and Sony reviews say the A1 shoots better video than the A7siii? The A7siii shelf life wasn’t very long.
Long live the A1

Feb 10, 2021*permalink

Pete_W

I felt that Jordan was making excuses for the camera's poor performance focusing on animals and birds using eye detection. His suggestion to rely on tracking and depth of field sounds like the system is just too unreliable, so why did he not just come out and say that clearly??

Feb 7, 2021permalink

There might soon be a firmware upgrade for animal and bird eye autofocus for this new camera model.

We have seen things like this before for all camera brands.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

lets face it , stills reviewing isn`t his comfort zone, Maybe he thought deep down that part of it could have been him and how he set it up ? - totally different to setting a camera up for C-AF Video tracking or manual focus which are more Jordan's bag

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

The Silver Nemesis

OK. How is the argument tournament going? Just checking. 😅

Feb 7, 2021permalink

What's winning? This false notion that if you say something is overpriced, then you can't afford it. The other, telling everyone the Sky is Blue. Everyone already knows what something cost relative to this or any other camera.

All of which has very little to due with the main argument. Comparing Sony's flagship to mostly Nikon and Canon although they have yet to do the same at this mirrorless price point. So some make an bad comparison to DSLRs instead. Where do you stand?

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

korayus

Fastest UHS-II SD card write speed is 300 MB/s and CFexpress type a is 900 MB/s. So difference is huge in theory but as I understand from the review, a1 not able to use benefit of Cfexpress card speed unless dpreview use slow Cfexpress card on review. Could you tell me what is the specs of Cfexpress Type A card on this review?

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Historically cameras write to SD cards annoyingly slowly compared to their rated speeds, have Sony does a faster SD interface here or used what they had? The A9 topped out at 150MB/s with the fastest of cards (2000x). (Also smaller cards tend to write more slowly due to having less banks.)

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Not sure which reviews you were watching. Pretty much everyone is lauding the buffer clearing when using fast CF-A cards.

And with the only apparent limitation now being starting a video or changing the card or battery while the buffer is writing this does seem to be a non issue going forward.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

korayus

I'm talking about DPreview's review at 4th minutes:
https://youtu.be/DM2txqJf-To?t=244
3 times faster card must make more difference.
Slow CF-A write reason could be slow memory controller or slow CF-A card. So I'm asking to dpreview what is the spec of CF-A card in this review?

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Jordan Drake

This is a Sony Tough 700MBps CFE-A card. This model: https://www.amazon.ca/Sony-CEA-G160T-CFexpress-Memory-CEAG160T/dp/B08DRQ6KLL/ref=sr11?dchild=1&keywords=160gb+cfexpress&qid=1612759112&sr=8-1

The SD was a Sony Tough 299MBps V90 card: https://www.amazon.ca/Memory-Class10-UHS-II-corresponding-SF-G128T/dp/B07HSDMNLL/ref=sr19?crid=R40LDC5YZO0I&dchild=1&keywords=sony+tough+128gb&qid=1612759288&sprefix=sony+tough+128%2Caps%2C199&sr=8-9

The CFE card wrote files a little faster than twice the speed of the SD card, so that lines up with the advertised speed.

Feb 8, 2021permalink

Georgescanvas

For $6,500 the body is a huge letdown. Doesn't matter how fast the sensor reads. I think Sony are just throwing anything at the wall and just hoping something sticks.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

If you want to provoke here, this will work better:

- I enjoy using my Sony cameras
- A camera model is like it is, complaining does not alter that fact
- Find workarounds if the camera is the limiting factor

Actually, this is the same for all brands .😉

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

BrentSchumer

People on DPReview: This won't sell, because it's too expensive for me.
Agencies and action Pros: Sorry, I can't hear you over the important work I'm focusing on.

There were similar comments about the A9 (who would pay $4,500 for a mirrorless camera?).

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Way to go Jordan, good one !! ....... Still Can`t believe that Sony have only just managed Lossless compressed RAW - Canon have had it for *Twenty One years* !! even nikon have had it since the D100 of 2002 ......

Feb 7, 2021permalink

I can't believe that Canon or Nikon have never made a DSR with IBIS. Minolta had it 17 years ago.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

What`s that got to do with Compressed RAW ? ....... Canon had Optical stabilizers long before the Dynax 7D arrvied on the scene which were far more effective than Minolta's IBIS - Or Sonys Current IBIS come to that .....

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

Optical viewfinders are problematic with IBIS, as the viewfinder doesn't show you what the sensor is capturing (up to 10-15% off). Better for lower-end cameras not people who frame carefully.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@AdamT

You were talking about things you 'can't believe' so I added a thing I couldn't believe. Here's another one; neither Canon or Nikon has ever made a professional camera with a tilt screen.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

... or an ashtray

Feb 7, 2021permalink

As it happens the Nikon D850 has a tilt screen, it`s probably the best general usage professional stills camera ever made - the D750 has one too (a camera loved by wedding and studio Photographers) . the Canon R5 and R6 have full swivels which are more use to a Dual purpose camera

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Crazy Leica Fox

"You do look cool!!"

"... she's very sweet."

🤣

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Kevin DiOssi

I was ready for Jordan to curl into a ball crying as he was inundated with the information that he would also be responsible for the photography portion of the review. LOL

A truly WILD camera and incredibly exciting for the industry.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

teddoman

Shutter click sound that runs through headphones only? I never would have come up with that feature request. Creative!

Feb 7, 2021permalink

I would use this often...

Feb 7, 2021permalink

lattesweden

I've been thinking about voice feedback via headphones and not just for the e-shutter clicks. Basically one could have a synthetic voice that aids with info what the camera does, like when the Auto ISO goes up over a certain threshold etc.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

1Bwana1

I don't understand the pricing complaints. This is not a budget camera. Business class airfare are not the cheap seats. These are both targeted at a similar financial demographic. Someone who is buying or traveling for business, or buying or traveling for fun and has more than average resources.

An international business class ticket that crosses an ocean will cost as much or more than this camera. The camera can make many trips. The airfare just one. Any exotic photographic travel will cost much more than this camera. Take your significant other nd everything almost doubles. The equipment is the cheap part of photography.

In the scope of what "Best in the World" costs these days, $6,500 is not much money.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

As always it's a matter of budget and priorities. And yes, the best cameras are generally not as expensive as the best equipment in many other hobbies/professions.

As to this being the "best in the world"...well, again, that's subjective. There are other cameras out there that to some would be considered "best in the world."

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

@1Bwana1

Okay, the Sky is Blue.

Feb 7, 2021*permalink

@1Bwana1
Nonsense. The average wage in the US is about $50k. Business class travel and this camera are reserved for the well heeled and businesses (clue is in the name). To suggest it’s ‘not much money’ is laughably self serving. Seemingly an excellent camera of course but about $1500 overpriced. I will retract the overpriced if it is as robust as other cams at this price and pro action shooters want the 50MP.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

Eric Hensel

Kandid -go back and reread what he wrote.

Feb 7, 2021permalink

@Eric
It was a struggle - but yes I managed to reread his ‘let them eat cake’ post .....👍
Anything else❓

Feb 7, 2021permalink