Chris and Jordan are out of the office this week, so we're taking a trip in the wayback machine to feature a classic episode of DPRTV: a review of the EOS R, Canon's first full-frame mirrorless camera.
Hey, by the way everyone who constantly repeats the "recycled sensor" talking point. The Sony A7RIV came out almost a year later and beat the R by 1 stop of dynamic range at ISO 100, and at each full stop of ISO after that they were essentially identical. And the slightly older A7RIII was even less of a difference. Let's put contemporary against contemporary at the same price point, though: A7III had 6 fewer MP and was $300 cheaper for the body alone (lenses for the Sony were also typically $200 more expensive for an equivalent to Canon). Sure, Sony had some advantage besides just the 1 stop of DR at ISO 100, but so did Canon. For example, the R could AF down to -6EV and Sony -3EV. So sure, the Sony video was probably better in many ways, but let's quit pretending that every photographer is also a videographer and vice versa. You won't buy a camera without oversampled 4K at 120fps? I won't buy a camera without DPAF. Also, the R didn't cook its RAW to inflate DR numbers.
I am still at a loss why anyone would want to spend money buying an R.
- The sensor was a reused 6D part, that itself was years behind when it was released, - AF only looked decent compared to the single point AF of the 6D that was far behind every other options, - Even today there are few high quality RF lenses that are a good match and it’s impossible to adapt FE mount or Z mount lenses.
It’s only in a super consumerist world where people are urging to buy something, anything with an appealing logo, that such a terrible value prop can sell.
The R used the 5DIV sensor. The RP used the 6DII sensor.
AF was greatly improved over the 5DIV and with the Firmware update it was far beyond that of the 6D and even better than the 5DIV.
There are PLENTY of RF lenses not to mention all the adapted EF lenses.
Your analysis is based on some extremely incorrect information and poor assumptions. The R was and is a great camera especially considering it was cheaper than the 5DIV which was, in its own right, exceptional.
If the R was not selling then I would I agree with your comment. But since it's still in stock and selling then an appealing logo trumps value. End of story.
Thomas A Anderson: I take it you own a Canon R and "R" in love with it ? Good for you! However, that doesn't change the fact that the professional reviews of the camera were mostly negative; so your viewpoint can be described as fairly unique.
The "R" used an old non-BSI, non-stabilized sensor recycled from the 5D line. For a camera released in late 2018 it was an embarrassingly feeble effort on Canon's part and got the reception it deserved.
Professional reviews are the measure of things, huh? So if reviewers don't like a movie then you don't watch it? Don't care about what regular people say, just reviewers? Well, I suppose that's one way to live your life. I extract relevant information from reviews and then I go hold the camera and determine if other opinions fit with my own experience and needs. The reviews don't match with user experience. I had no expectations and don't see every new camera, so I was excited about what the camera was and not what it wasn't. I must be really dumb.
Everyone went through contortions to say that the EOS R was "not THAT bad;" camera content creators don't want to alienate half their audience.
It's always interesting to check reviews years later and see what is said about a camera at release vs. what is said about that previous camera when a newer model comes out. For example look about what is said for AF for the Z7, Z7II, and Z9. Or ergonomics for the A7RII vs A7RIII vs A7RIV. Suddenly that thing that was "not the best but pretty good" becomes "oh man I'm glad that's gone!"
I can't think of a single big review sight that avoided harsh criticism of the R. One SD card failed and it was just all over the place. Eye AF wasn't as good as Sony and that's all you heard. The control bar was new and all the reviewers tried to loathe it more than the next. The problem with the R was that Canon had so engrained its design ethos into people's brains any change was met with instant disgust at a change to the status quo. Heck, it took me some getting used to just because it was such a small body compared to the big DSLR's. But once you get used to it, it's great.
I feel a bit protective about the R. Everyone was so nasty about it! I traded a 5Div for it. After the firmware updates it really wasn’t that bad, although that Touch Bar deserves a special place in hell. My first mirrorless camera, and my first experience of using my adapted EF-mount lenses (Canon and Sigma) with no front/back focusing issues. My current R5 does, however, feel like the real deal.
Sorry, DPReview did not agree with you in their review of the Canon "R". Here are some of the negative points from their review:
Dynamic range and noise performance lag behind the competition. Quirky, questionable ergonomics may turn off some users. 4K video comes with substantial 1.8x crop. Significant rolling shutter in 4K mode. Video output is generally soft. Dual Pixel AF is surprisingly unreliable in video shooting. AF struggles in back-lit scenarios. No in-body stabilization further limits usefulness as a video camera. Silent shutter is of limited use due to significant rolling shutter. No interval timer.
The "R" used an old non-BSI, non-stabilized sensor recycled from the 5D line. For a camera released in late 2018 it was an embarrassingly feeble effort on Canon's part and got the reception it deserved.
mike The 5DIV sensor was not cutting edge when the R was released. Please note that "not as good as bleeding edge" does not equal "bad." Reviewers tend to gush about new and better things, so by those standards they couldn't help but be less than amazed. Fortunately cameras like the R are build to use, not to be reviewed and then laid on a shelf.....as I indicated by "getting used to." You seem to have entirely missed the point of what I was saying.
Welsh, the touch bar was fine. I seriously do not understand what all the hate was about from the beginning. No, it wasn't a joystick. It is simply two buttons with very basic scrolling functionality. If one treats it as such, it functions perfectly well. Mine is left for Auto ISO, right for ISO 100, and slide to change ISO. Easy.
mike, BTW, regurgitating review bullet points is a weird way to address an owner who frequents DPR. I read those points years ago and more than once....and you missed a whole bunch, too. Note: it doesn't include eating stars, weird line artifacts in RAW files, being unable to use the touchscreen for AF, and about a million other issues with other cameras. Are you implying that is there is one "con" then the camera is not worth buying? That if it's no the best and most expensive with all the newest features, it's garbage? That's what your line of logic inevitably leads to. DR lagging -- photons to photos indicates it wasn't much of a lag. Ergonomics -- sure, always very relative, but way better than some. 4K...etc. -- Don't care. 4K rolling shutter. -- So never buy Sony also??? Soft video -- Don't care. DPAF video -- Don't care. AF in backlit scene -- No problems ever here. Firmware? No IBIS for video -- Lens IS. Silent shutter -- Don't care. Interval time -- own one already
I love my Fuji gear but at time of switching from Oly, there was an offer for an EOS R with the 24-105mm f/4 at a similar price as the X-H1 and 16-55m f/2.8. I sometimes wonder if I should have gone with the former mainly to get the 24-105mm f/4 as a good price before an eventual jump to e.g. R5.
Very popular theory amongst non-users. You also don't even understand the specs as you've demonstrated elsewhere. Sure it's "obsolete" now by digital photography standards....welcome to the digital age, but those of us who have been here for a while know that "obsolete" happens quickly and yet those older cameras still work great. This isn't like fifteen years ago when new bodies were hugely different. Buy a camera today and there's almost never a reason to upgrade unless you change your photographic interests or want to go from crop to FF. But if your camera looks better when you look down your nose at other cameras, carry on.
By all accounts weather sealing of the R is on par with the 5DIV (one claims 6DII but tests indicate better). But of course, no dual SD slot. As stated previously, this body was obviously meant to be smaller and cheaper so as to both compete in a different segment and not be a direct equivalent to the 5DIV.
For hand held video, IBIS is great, but even cinema cameras that are meant to be used hand held don't have IBIS. For that reason I've never really understood the demands for IBIS. It seems lots of consumers are willing to spend tons of money on very, very expensive cameras that don't have IBIS.
My experience has been if you are doing simple hand-held videos, Good IBIS can make a "night and day" difference. No rigs, just simple handheld videos with a camera.
Yeah, one miss for IBIS is that it doesn't help enough to maintain a level shot, it should at least have an auto-leveling mode. For that I suppose a gimbal is still required.
I think we can all agree the original EOS R aged like milk. I'm not sure if it deserves the title "classic". On the other hand some cameras are really future classics and will be remembered for decades because of their breakthrough technology: Sony a7III, Panasonic GH5, Samsung Nx1, Nikon D850,...
The R is a perfectly serviceable camera that was improved greatly by firmware updates. It is somewhat second rate for video, but, the image quality is great, its simply the annoying rolling shutter that makes it a static shot only kind of machine.
I agree. The Canon 5D mk II released in 2008 was the camera that started the whole full-frame sensor video revolution. In contrast, the mediocre "R" model with its non-BSI non-stabilized sensor recycled from the older 5D line was already obsolete when it was released in late 2018. In the ten year period between these two cameras, Canon went from being arguably the leader of the industry to a company struggling to keep up against more innovative companies such as Sony and Panasonic.
Mikegt, how can Canon struggle from being #1? Sony fortunately woke up Canon to what cheap labor can offer with high tech and competitive pricing. Canon has been in the camera industry since 1933 hence they know exactly what PRO's photographers need and suppose to what ameture eye-catching specs no one needs. Big difference.
> Canon has been in the camera industry since 1933
Sony's current ILC line came from their acquisition of Minolta; and Minolta started making cameras back in 1928. Before acquiring Minolta, Sony already had a long history in the video and digital camera market; they have been a leader in the industrial and broadcast video markets since the 1970s. In 1981 they introduced the world's first electronic still camera and went fully digital in 1997.
I hate to be the one to point this out (that’s a lie) but the R is going to be considered a classic camera. It was the first RF mount body that ushered in a new generation of bodies and lenses. Most people who own it know that the complaints from reviewers and online commenters retaining their amateur status for the Olympics are bases on poor expectation management and lack of time with the body, or a combination thereof. No, it’s not perfect. It was an extremely compact version of the 5DIV. Canon was trying to accomplish a lot at once: 1) pack a big punch in a reasonably priced body, 2) show everyone how small a camera that matches or exceeds 5DIV specs can be, 3) design good controls on a tiny form factor, 4) and all while leaving room for the 5DIV to keep selling.
They couldn’t make a new RF body big because they wanted to appeal to those longing for smaller bodies. They couldn’t make that body reasonably priced if they added nickel and dime after another in the form of packing more high end controls into such a small form. They couldn’t absolutely butcher their DSLR sales….even if they were willing, a small body was an actual selling point. And the complaints about controls read more like “but I want!!!!” than a reflection of getting fewer features when the price is lower.
Anyone into classic cameras knows exactly what this camera is. It will be that historic model that introduced a line. But at the same time is that model that everyone will tell you to stay away if you really want to use it.
I disagree. I would never recommend someone use a Kodak Brownie, but it is both historic and classic. I believe your criteria for both are incorrect. You’re also incorrect about those recommending its use. As with any camera recommendations must come with caveats, but I would recommend it and I own it. I know others who also think many early criticisms were more attributed to reviewer bias and expectation management than faults with the camera. “The control bar is dumb and useless!” No, it’s not, but it can be turned off. And so on.
" It was an extremely compact version of the 5DIV."
You lost me there. Tbh this all seems to be written as if Canon had made the first (FF) mirrorless camera. Tiny? tiny is Panasonic GM1. Or even EOS M200.
To me it really depends where you're coming from. I've been using mirrorless cameras since 2013 and bought that EOS R only recently. It's a very nice camera, and coming back to Canon always puts a smile of my face, but it is not a camera that I will remember, not the way I'd remember the Canon 6D for instance. As someone who's more into (actual) tiny cameras I was more surprised by the Panasonic S1R which is huge but very nice in hand and with a modern user interface that makes you want to use the camera.
Kazanuda, the R is weather sealed as well as or better than the 5DIV. It is also better in some other regards than the 5DIV, so.....
strat, there are so many outstanding cameras these days that I don't think that definition is of any use. A camera also needs to break ground in some way. The R was Canon's first new FF mount in decades AND of great quality. Yeah, the M mount was good and so was the EF-S, did they shake up the camera world? Nah. The RF mount brought the thousand pound gorilla called Canon into the FF ILC market.
And PA...keep moving those goal posts and pretending like you made a point.
It was a very lame attempt of Canon to bring out a mirrorless, while they were working on something more proper. They did not take mirrorless seriously first, but got afraid when they saw the momentum it gained. Just read the records of that time period.
Then they combined excellent marketing with their 800 lbs gorilla power and sold the body to the masses the Bose way (better sound through marketing).
sir_c...what are you even talking about? Of course they took "mirrorless" seriously: the RF mount is proof of that. And the first RF camera doesn't have to be the flagship model for the entire line, it just has to be a good mid-range segment from which to build. They HAD to get a feel for the market, and a low end camera or a high end camera wouldn't have utterly failed to accomplish that. But, put the wildly successful 5DIV into a smaller body and have some really impressive RF lenses to go with it, then you'll be able to get some idea of where Canon can fit into the existing FF segment. It was an excellent first attempt in every way. The prices was right, the sensor was solid and established with a lower cost for entry than a newly developed, very expensive sensor. So the R came out for a mid-range segment, RP for the lower end, and then they could finish IBIS and their BSI sensors that would cost a premium.
It won’t be considered a classic camera because it was and is a poor camera.
If it had been the first ever FF mirrorless camera a case may possibly be made for classic status. Except it wasn’t. The original Sony A7 is the camera that broke the mould.
Even worse it came from a company which had dominated the film camera market and had continued this into the digital era until they decided to enter the mirrorless market.
I was expecting Canon and Nikon to both knock it out of the park once they entered this market from the get-go but both companies first efforts were worse than their DSLR offerings. The R being a prime example of this.
,Why anyone would buy this camera now I have no idea.
@Dave Oddie: "both companies first efforts were worse than their DSLR offering"
How is that? Maybe the Z7 was worse in some regards than the D850 but also offered new features like IBIS, and not the Sony 3 stops in good wind kind, it works well. And the Z6 has a better sensor than all DSLRs Nikon had.
Dave, Fortunately for me I shoot with a camera and not with a review for a camera. The reviewers were expecting something different than what they got. Believe it or not, there is a difference between reviewing cameras and using them.
It was ultimately smart move by Canon. As flawed as it was Canon had the only camera with an articulating screen and decent AF and while being relatively cheap enough.
It was opposite strategy of Nikon but it seemed to worked far better as an entry into mirrorless. I don't have specific sales numbers but if you look at the amount of reviews on B&H for the EOS R vs the Z6 and Z7 then the EOS R has far more than both of them combined....almost 6 times the amount. Heck the Z9 has already toppled the original Z6/Z7. It's not like they were bad cameras at all(in fact far better than what Canon had in many aspects) but clearly they were missing something critical that would push sales.
Yes exactly. The point is that I don't want to watch the video. I find text reviews much better as you can quickly go to the interesting part by scanning the page. (an added bonus to text is that it takes much much less bandwidth than videos). I guess nowadays one has to release videos as that's what sells and what's "in". I think videos can be a good medium for certain things but not lens or camera reviews IMO.
@justmeMN yes, DPR already reviewed the EOS-R, but my understanding is that the TV review is a different review with not the same content. Unless I'm mistaken?
Such a weird camera, feel like canon slapped some remaining peices just to release something asap and the R6/5 came the year after and were obviously near finished because you don’t R&D/draw/manufacture/market a camera in a single year.
Nah, business standpoint it doesn't make sense going headfirst in new market, they don't have segmentation where they can focus on
Also what's the point of going like R5/R6 first, the camera is beast but no lens to pull the best out of it, the 1.2 trio and f2 zoom may pull the best out of R, but not R5/R6, those bodies need superteles
, Weird! Really weird!!! After the R5 and R6 came out, I thought the R was history. Let it die a slow death and stop disturbing it. It's already 4 years old and you now are wanting to review it???
EOS R is actually a really nice camera. Great image quality, fast, well built, userfriendly, great video quality, it is actually a great value for money at the moment.
The EOS R is not even 4 full years old (October 2018 release) and already being called "a classic"? Strange days. ;-) It needs to be at least some 10-15 years old., i'd suggest.
That's not true Txoni, TV shows and movies are often referred to as 'instant classics' due to the nature of the story etc... in this case if DPreview feel its one of their best ever videos, it doesnt matter if its a week of a decade old, it can still be referred to as a classic in this context.
It is the age of near instant gratification brought on my cellphones and transferred to cameras. Once the new toy or photo has lost interest it is on to the next thing. Now, my 1995 Canon 100-300mm L, which I sometimes still use, is a true classic. I bought it new for $600(US). Using 3.5% US inflation rate, it is worth $1500 today, if you bought a similar quality lens.
The R is basically a mirrorless 5DIV with very slightly lower image quality. The image quality is still quite decent, but head-to-head my 5DIV doesn't beat my A7 in any image quality metric... which is rather sad. The R is still selling new for $1600 (currently on sale, "regularly" $1800!), which really makes no sense at all -- not that the Sony A7II now selling new for $1400 makes much sense either ;-) . The R should really be about $900, which is what the A7II was selling for new before the pandemic. Hopefully we'll get past the current IC fab shortage and start seeing cameras get back to being more available and with the pricing they logically should have.
Talking about IQ outside of academic circles only makes sense in terms of end use. IQ of scanned 35mm slides did and still makes sense when selling 20x30 in. prints. Likewise, the price of anything only makes sense relative to the market it is being sold in: Economics 101. Canon can still sell the R, like the M50, because there is still demand for them at their prices.
@profhankD: The A7 II didn't beat my Fuji X-T20 by a big margin back then, I don't see myself recommending the A7 II based on IQ. Did you forget a 'R' or 'I' when writing this? ;)
I agree about the crazy price (though I bought the EOS R for 900€ a few months ago, sold it a bit later on). I wish Sony had really killed off the A7 II and made the A7 III the affordable one. We would have avoided anyone recommending the A7 II in 2022...
larkhon: The A7, A7II, and 5DIV are all comparable in IQ... although the A7II's IBIS gives it a practical win. I really think the A7II and its FSI sensor should have disappeared by now, but the Nikon Z5 basically is a more modern wrapper on an A7II sensor, so perhaps Sony justifies keeping the A7II in production that way? I still don't get how the A7II can sell for $100 MORE than a Z5; one would think Sony could at least have made an updated A7IIA...? The A7III uses a better BSI sensor than the A7II (or Z5).
The A7RII 42MP BSI sensor is still comparable in IQ even to the A1 -- way better than the 5DIV. Yet, the A7RII has been discontinued. My guess is that's because it's the same sensor in the A7RIII, so why waste the good sensor chips in a lower-profit-margin A7RII body? The A7RII also was the last model to support PlayMemories camera apps, so it's a different software infrastructure that Sony depricates.
In sum, now is not a great time to buy a camera body. :-(
@ProfHankD: I was very happy with the first A7, but it always bothered me that the older Canon 6D was giving cleaner images at high ISO. Plus EF lenses were not working that well. The IBIS on Mark II was a good plus. and adapted lenses kind of worked for landscape. By the time I had bought that one I was playing with Fuji's X-Trans 3 generation, and to me there wasn't a big difference in IQ. The A7r II really fixed that for me. :)
I haven't used the Z5 (I had played with a D750 though) but its high ISO looks a lot better then the A7 II's. If it is the same sensor, that "wrapper" is making quite the difference. The A7 III and Z6 are much closer, with less chroma noise on the A7 III. And if its IBIS is anything like the one on the Z6 or Z7, one can get a few more stops than with the A7 II, at least with wider angle lenses.
I agree it is not a good time to buy a body, I wish manufacturers made new entry-level cameras instead of keeping older gens on the catalog.
I tend to agree, a working holiday indeed, Aka working the likes of the upcoming Fuji an or Canon cropped Sensors Cameras. Otherwise I doubt they would have used the term, "Out of office".
Cameras sensors manufactoring ain't cost as much as it was 10 years ago. I think we need to leave APS-C in the past. 35mm format is the classic APS-C is closer to 16mm
”Problem” with todays cameras are the technology in them Are so advanced so one firmware uppdate can make them to be like a whole new camera so the revirews you do when they come out can be old and misleading after just a couple of months. Like the Canon R, the autofocus was really bad first but after a couple of firmware uppdates it didnt just get MUCH quicker and more reliabile but got so many new functions to and not omly in the autofocus departement . it went from a prettty meh camera to quite good actually . With the dslrs you only got ”phenomens” fixed and some wrong spelling in languges you didnt speak.
We photographers live in good times with so many options to choose from when if comes to cameras ,strobes studio equipment etc
Yep like the X-PRO1 for example. Any new review should have a blurb about how its likely to be better in the future because fw upgrades are almost "standard".
LOL. Yeah I pretty much agree. Many cameras designed from 2010 onward (or thereabouts) I'd consider modern. Give it about 20 or so years before it's labeled as a throwback. From DPR's perspective though, they see a lot of cameras and so the R must feel dated in comparison to say, oh the Z9 for example.
Chris and Jordan are out of the office this week, so we're taking a trip in the wayback machine to feature a classic episode of DPRTV: a review of the EOS R, Canon's first full-frame mirrorless camera.
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Chris and Jordan test the Canon EOS R with new v1.4 firmware to see how much it improves autofocus. TL;DR – if you use eye-AF, you'll want this update.
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