Do you remember the custom focus limiter? Chris and Jordan do, and they explain why camera makers should embrace this feature for both stills and video.
I loved the focus limiter on my a77m2! I wish the far one had a little better resolution, but other than that, it was wonderful. The implementation was graeat - front wheel for the far, rear wheel for the near. It made lenses snap into focus much faster, and in some cases, saved me a lot of bad shots, such as the trees in perfect focus, but the rare duck in front of them, a blur.
Chris obviously has a lot of interest to say -- I just wish I could understand it! Please don't gabble -- a bit slower, and a bit clearer please please please!
Yes please bring that back for Sony cameras and also add it for other brands that don't have it. Worked so nice on my a99, and was so much more useful than the 0-3 options on the lenses (that is some has zero, some has 2 and some lenses has 3 settings for focus limiter).
I sometimes think there's something fundamentally wrong with the way that our comments are buoying the camera industry. Don't you sometimes wish they'd figure some things out by themselves? Aren't they supposedly all photographers?
AFAIK Olympus was first to bring out a digital focus limiter that is set in the body with E-M1 II in 2016, and that since people wishing it from 2013 at least.
And Sony does same at 2017 and DPR is just ignoring again the innovator in the industry because it is not Sony? Okay....
And the same feature is E-M1X, and very likely in all future other OM-D models as well.
So how about the article would be about Olympus leading the industry and others should copy the good ideas from those who does nice good ideas to customer, regardless who are the first ones to bring it to consumers?
And Olympus didn't limit it to just one value, you can have three predefined ranges that you can toggle On-Off with a Fn button or save to one of the Custom modes.
A very related feature that I'd like to see is auto depth of field based on your near and far points.
Select this mode, select the near point (centre point focus or tap on screen), select the far point, and then the camera sets the focus distance AND the aperture so that both are in focus.
Canon EOS 35mm film cameras all had that mode in the 90s and so did their consumer/prosumer DSLRs as recently as the 50D and the T3i in 2011. Don't know why it went away...
Can't do that, as the DOF changes based the viewing conditions, not by the aperture, focal length and distance.
The standard for the DOF range you see is defined by: ASA 100 B/W film 8x10" print 300 DPI (PPI in this time) Viewed from 12" distance Viewed by person with normal 20/20 vision Viewed front of northern window at the day time That 60% of the viewers will consider the dot as dot instead blur.
Change any of those values and your DOF changes as well. Just like if you use sharp lens then you have deeper DOF than with soft lens. If you have 100Mpix you get different DOF than with 1Mpix.
Sure the DOF is changed as well with aperture size, distance etc, but those are the adjustment ways for your final image. If you are specific about DOF, then you need to start from your final image properties and its viewing conditions, then you know how to set the camera settings etc to get the wanted DOF. You can't do that by starting with camera settings.
I use it all the time on my Oly EM1 Mark ll, Olympus engineers, they are way ahead of the curve! Its quick to set up, and works especially well for astrophotography! Nothing new here!
@Brendan, DPR did (again) it all about Sony that how Sony is the leading and the innovative etc. How about just going to the route that who then made it first, who wished it first (this has been before 2013) pubically and written about it to manufacturers etc.
This was just a hidden Sony advertisement, nothing more
Thus, just like many other things, would be a blessing for thise who need it, but a curse for general population (set the limit, forget, cry when the camera won't lock focus).
I think it's about time the manufacturers implement an "expert" switch (but call it something not as nice sounding to avoid people switching it on to be "expert") in the menus that enable previously hidden option useful for "power users" but potentially harmful for novices.
This would nicely insulate marketing from engineers and allow users to choose how they want to use their cameras.
About the UI - set the focus to desired point of interest, use wheel to set the "zone" while showing DoF preview and distance information (this can be easily done in software, lens tell the camera minimum and maximum values for "focus" in nondescript units, it's up to camera to choose how far it will move the lens, at least for MILCs).
Just dont add it in the auto mode. Theres no need to have an 'expert' mode. Why does the average dumb American have to ruin everything for the rest of us?
Sony's implementation shows on screen when active. It is not very ignorable. It is assigned to a button by default, so users might initiate it unintentionally.
On my cameras it means: the situation is going to change more often than I’m ready to pay attention to camera setting. And what does it mean on yours?!
If this can be done by a software adjustment, why the hell aren't ALL the manufacturers offering it as a post adjustment to their software? There are times when a gesture like that might trigger some customer loyalty - something which seems to be evaporating in today's market, with increasingly alarming movements in sales figures!
Yes could be useful feature. I think I remember it in a Panasonic camera. But you forget people are stupid and will pick up a camera and wonder why it can't focus and is limited to set range. But would be extremely easy for Olympus and Panasonic to add this. Panasonic has all the lens data from depth of defocus any way. Best if hold button for 2 to 5 seconds to clear any settings. Olympus custom button on the lens comes to mind as useful way to add it.
Also never know, might come back. Olympus E500 had focus bracketing. Then they dropped it. Now its back as a key selling feature in their newer cameras.
They didn't get credited for it in the video, but Olympus already do have a software focus limiter in their two flagship models. Honestly those models already need to be used by someone who knows their camera well.
But I agree, I've seen people pick up cameras with the lens focus limiter switched to a limited range, get frustrated and declare that the camera has crappy auto focus.
So, after you set your near and far focus limits, how do you communicate the maximum permissible CoC diameter you want it to maintain at those limits of DoF? If it's going to select the focus distance and aperture at which "just enough" DoF is recorded, it should be asking you to specify your choice of max. permissible CoC diameter, just as you would expect with any good DoF calculator. But it doesn't. And whatever CoC diameter they've hard-coded for their DoF calulations can only be accurate for one ratio of enlargement factor to viewing distance to deliver some hard-coded final image resolution requirement, that might be more or less aggressive than you desire.
A friendlier solution than asking for your max. permissible CoC diameter at the near and far limits would be to require specification of your maximum anticipated final image width, your minimum anticipated viewing distance and your desired final image resolution in lp/mm ...
... so that it can calculate the maximum permissible CoC diameter on the fly, for use in its DoF calculations that set focus distance and aperture.
As it is, this feature is making assumptions as to how aggressive we want its DoF calculations to be, with no accommodation for user input. That's like using an engraved barrel DoF scale - as if every user always produces prints at an invariant ratio of enlargement factor to viewing distance and as if every user has the same requirement for final image resolution at the near and far limits of DoF, all the time, in every print.
This lack of user-definable agressiveness for DoF calculations is why so many people are often disappointed with results had when they trust engraved DoF scales. When they later examine their enlargements at the intended viewing distance, they're more likely to see too much or too little DoF than to have a Goldilocks moment. Expect that same roll-of-the-dice propensity for disappointment with this feature.
Mike, I'm sure what you say is true if we are talking about a feature which is automating DoF control, but the video is not calling for this - it is calling for the ability to set the near and far focusing distance limits. This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with depth of field - it's about improving the performance of the AF system and avoiding accidentally focusing on the wrong thing.
Thanks jonby - the light comes on. Uggh! I had assumed it was intended to automate selective focus and hadn't perceived any value in simply setting the focus limits, but with your post, it's suddenly obvious. :-)
The focus limiter has been in the lens since years ago. It msy be useful for _some_, but none for the large. In the name of the cut-cost design, this feature is eliminated in the second round.
Eventhough hyperfocal is more essential, it goes south after the first round :(
It is an excellent suggestion that more camera manufacturers should implement. According to Chris it's not a difficult thing to do. My question : Is it something that can be done in a firmware upgrade? I'm guessing it is, but I wonder how many camera makers will decide not to go down that path because they figure they can make a bigger profit by releasing it as a new feature in their brand new model. The bottom line is if you can communicate with the lens, you can do this. So there's no excuse.
And for those folks who don't think it's a good idea -- don't use it.
I'm guessing they may have dropped it because people may have gotten confused and had reactions like: "hey... my lens is broke it doesn't focus far away..."
Focus limiter is one feature that I miss. Another one is some more support for vintage lenses. It is almost impossible to have the photos tagged with vintage lens name, focal length and aperture. The workarounds are so terribly complex and time consuming that it makes them pointless. I just wonder if Sony could be the first one that offers firmware that allows creating vintage lens database. It should allow to enter the lens name, focal length, maximum aperture. DB should allow to enter/edit about 20 lenses (it is more then we usually use). So instead of entering focal length for SteadyShot we could select the lens from our db and its name, focal length and maximum aperture could be saved in EXIF. Because aperture of manual lenses cannot be controlled by camera, the scroll that is responsible for setting the aperture could just change the numbers (from max to 32). This number could be saved to EXIF, too (the photographer will be responsible to set it correctly.
Sony a7RII had an app for just that "Lens Compensation", but then Sony decided not to allow downloadable apps for later cameras. I had bought about 10 apps for the a7RII that now can't be used on my newer cameras :-( https://www.playmemoriescameraapps.com
A terrible mistake from Sony - if a camera could be like internet browsers or android, then we could create new features just by ourselves.. (everybody is a programmer nowadays, right ;)
Not for me thanks , besides I thought eye focus did it all . What happens if your photographing the distance and something hugely newsworthy happens just outside your range.... hold it while I reset my menu ? Now for video my DSLR Controller software allows me to set a near and far point and with the press of a button it will pull focus for you. Add to this a touch screen and speed variations !
It is understandable that you said that with no experience at all on the a99II. You hardly have to enter any menus. You may simply cancel the AF-D Range function with just one press of a button and then you will have the whole AF range available.
Gets my vote. I was at an airshow the other week and at exactly the wrong moment I would suddenly be focussed on some dudes waving hand, or the back of his head.
I stopped watching DPReviewTV about a month ago because of I felt in many episodes it was mostly entertainment and no substance. When the substance is there, there is no need to (try to) be funny. It is entertaining enough, when people are enthusiastic and HONEST! This video is good, 19/24 in karat gold.
But the implementation is rather poor (entering numbers for the distance is a rather difficult task if you cannot guess the distance right (made by engineers...)). I would like to see an alternative implementation where I can choose the starting point and the end point and the camera figures the distance by itself. That would also be usefull for focus stacking (take a focus stack with images from from here to there in x steps)
But I think as others put it, it may be a source of support calls or complains if people forget they have set it or accidentally set it (same with some lenses with focus clutches that people accidentally set).
Thats like saying cameras shouldnt have an aperture or shutter priority, because too many people would complain to Panasonic about their pictures turning out to dark or too bright.
I can imagine the boardroom meeting... "Hell nah we already stepped into it when we called it depth from DEFOCUS now you want a feature LIMITING focus?"
Just kidding, the auto mode is of course the right idea.
@Critical Thinker But aperture and shutter priority is core functionality that is widely used that would have huge impact on sales if removed. The people who have the focus clutch issue certainly know and use the non-auto modes too. This however is a niche feature that a vast majority of people would not be aware of.
I'm just pointing out the mentality of the companies. Even if they added this feature, how many more sales would it add (would it even be mentioned in marketing?) vs the additional costs of support calls?
Of course there are ways to design the interface to avoid issues (even in non-auto modes), but camera makers are not necessarily the best at interface design (quite a few have pretty bad reputation in this regard).
But Sony has pretty much forgotten about A-mount system by now... it is not worth it if Sony isn't going to do anything with it, unless you're into buying expensive lenses that aren't on par to the competition due to lack of Sony willingness to update their optics..
Or, if you're into buying cheaper, used lenses from the 80s and 90s that has limited support on newer A-mount cameras. (None of Minolta AF lenses work with AF-D Range).
Rooru S, I believe AF Range Control works with all Minolta AF lenses. But screwdrive lenses (including Sony 135/85) don't allow the function with DMF.
Sony can't leave something behind when they sell the complete system new as we speak. You may have left it behind, but Sony not only sells it currently, but also supports it with Pro Services.
That's what I said steelhead3... "I believe AF Range Control works with all Minolta AF lenses". Rooru S claimed differently above "...None of Minolta AF lenses work with AF-D Range".
It does work, but check for yourself on a99II. AF Range Control doesn't work in all AF modes with screw drive lenses, regardless of the make. SSM lenses work in all modes. None work with video.
AF-D was used for the helping AF points with the 99 (not very successfully); that is completely different than range control. I am too lazy to pull out my Sony 85 f1.4 to check on your assertions but I have never observed any problems.
@ Rooru S, not sure what you mean that Minolta lenses don't work with depth of field control. All I have are old Minolta lenses - 6--/4, 500 Reflex, 400/4.5, 300/2.8, etc. All but the 135STF (manual focus only) work perfect with the focus range limiting on my a77m2.
Thanks for making this video. I also recently requested Panny on their S1 review here, to have this very useful feature. Not sure if its much needed in new Sony cameras, but for Panny it would ultimately make their system extremely easy to compete with. Also being an IT guy, I can confirm it should not be too difficult to implement atleast in UI. Not so sure, about hardware. As if it would be easy, it would have already been in Panny cameras for sometimes.
It is a very handy feature - I wasn't aware that it wasn't there on other cameras.
One instance where I find it very useful is shooting through wire (in this specific case at Brand Hatch motor circuit) - effectively you can use the focus limiter to make sure the lens does not make a long attempt to focus close for the wire..
Some people does so, but as well Konica/Minolta fans forgets that Olympus was first to actually make good IBIS. But Olympus has patents for IBIS from mid-80's for digital sensors, and before that even for other purposes, much earlier than Konica/Minolta has any patents.
But again it is who brought it first to consumers....
Thank You Chris & Jordan! Man I would use this feature on just about every shoot! Especially, on the touch screen for video! Oh Yeah doing it from and App on a smartphone would be awesome! Listen up Nikon!! Make it happen, add this to your next firmware upgrade and you will win a lot of followers over!
What I would really like is to set (and pre-set) focus points on the touch screen. It will be very handy (particularly for video) to go to pre-set focus points on a scale. BTW, it should be even better to make this happen with an app on a phone or tablet and make it available for different cameras.
Samsung NX-1 has touch screen preset AF points with a hack. Works nice, and the hack allows five different points to be set. Yet another camera that was overlooked when new.
@Clyde - it was not overlooked, it was very much appreciated. Just that Samsung expected that everybody in the photography to get a camera on the first gen, with few available lenses. People were really starting considering the system when Samsung started already to exit different markets... Samsung simply did not understand photo industry, and when they eventually did they decided it is not worth it :)
As best I can tell they still have way too many now-largely-irrelevant autofocus options, and what they removed (focus limiter) was actually a useful feature that *augments* their new improved AF. They should get rid of all the other less powerful/useful AF modes and bring back AF limiting.
The funny thing is Sony has now a menu option which let's you disable Af-areas options you don't want. So you don't have to scroll through them when you select your AF area.
a99II is a CURRENT Camera. E-Mount gains credibility with every A-Mount feature it adopts. Starting with changing name from NEX to Alpha, Alpha menus, borrowing of all A-Mount lenses to prop up the system until E-Mount lineup matured, all metal lens mount, IBIS, joystick, larger battery, larger grip, flip screen, multi color AF points...
E-Mount still has a long way to go before catching up to full set vertical controls, front side controls, FULLY articulating LCD, fantastic Silent Multi Controler, top LCD providing full time battery readout when rear LCD is off or inverted, un-cropped full frame 30p 4K.
But again, there is nothing to "bring back" because it's available new on Sony a99II.
The biggest feature to legitimately "bring back" is original a99 three battery system allowing hot swap while recording. Or "bring back" original Sony a900 "intelligent preview" that allows predictive flash adjustments that no EVF can provide.
This feature disappearing act is something that frustrates me about Japanese manufacturers and as a Sony shooter Sony in particular.
It's not the first feature Sony has dropped. I started with them with an A100 and it had something called spot AE toggle which let you configure the AE lock button to switch to spot metering when it locked the exposure. I found it very useful. It vanished for all Axxx models after something like the A700 until it came back a lot later on the A77.
The A77 had GPS. I love that as well. Gone on the A77II. Ditto the AF assist light.
Japanese manufactures seem to go back to a blank sheet of paper every time and forget about the great features they invented last time. Even the A7's didn't have IBIS at the start. Bonkers.
It's not just cameras. With Hi Fi it happens all the time. Some fantastic new circuit is invented. 12 months later its gone from the MkII.
Evolution doesn't seem to fit within Japanese design philosophy.
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