This week Chris and Jordan compare the new Panasonic 24mm F1.8 and 35mm 1.8 to their closest competitors: the Sigma 24mm F2 DG DN and Sigma 35mm F2 DG DN. Which is best for L-mount? TLDR; they're all good lenses, but there are some big differences worth knowing about.
@umbalito, I’m not sure what you mean. The Sigma 24mm and 35mm are Global Vision lenses therefore they are eligible for conversion into any mount which they are commercially available as. There may be a delay before newer lenses are listed or prepared, but unless there has been some specific notice, all current Sigma designs would be eligible.
Great video! Pretty sure the Sigma 35mm is the one for me, now I just need Panasonic to put out an S1X (with a tilt screen!) so I can finally stop considering the A7C.
Would also love to see something like Lumix S5 + Sigma 35mm f/2 compared with, say, an X-T4 + 23mm f/1.4. Bigger sensor all the way, or is there something to be said for spending more of your budget on the lens?
As a Canon FF hooter I am jealous of the E and L mount having native/official support for third party glass. Not enough to switch, but it is a really nice option to have. I am in the camp Canon will never license the RF mount, so not holding out hope.
You could always buy an S5 or fp just for particular glass - the price of Canon RF lenses seems to approach the price of equivalent Sigma lenses + a camera.
Looking at B&H I see that the RF24-70 lists at $2400 and even the Leica SL24-70 is not much more at $2800. Not saying that they’re not worth it, just that the scale of cost affords considering a the lens+camera as a lens :)
P.S. Yes, a quick check shows the current price of the S5+ART24-70 = $2770
there are recent rumours suggesting that Sigma will start producing for Canon RF in 2022. And altho rumours regarding Sigma are rarely true it makes sense they would first go for Canon RF rather than Fuji X or Nikon Z given the sales.
I would like to know if the sigma digital distance scale is accurate. I have sigma 28-70 and the scale is too bad and changes with focal length AND the is a jump when manual focusing: eg from 4 to 10 meters. Pana kit zoom is amazingly accurate and even.
Can we know if the sigma, especially the 35, had an accurate digital distance scale without jumps?
The scale displayed by the body? Could the jumps be caused by the non linear MF on the Sigma? Turn the wheel faster and it'll move the focus faster... The Pana bodies don't allow you to switch 3rd party lenses to linear MF do they?
Impulses, yes the scale at the monitor. it is just what I wrote. It’s sigmas poor scaling that is variable and with variable not acceptable jumps. It has nothing to do with compatibility.
Things are clear. Pana's lenses are to support their cam's video capabilities while Sigma's are to offer photographic performance to the L mount users.
Way interesting to see, for non-video shooters, the Sigma lenses are being the best choice - better IQ than the panasonic L-Mount lenses here in terms of sharpness.
There's another noticeable difference: with the Panasonic lenses on an S-series camera you can select the manual focus mode behaviour between linear or non-linear and determine the rotation of the focus ring in degrees. To my understanding that menu option doesn't work with the Sigma L-mount lenses.
That Lumix/Leica option doesn’t work with the Sigmas, though they can be adjusted to some extent with the USB dock, and the HSM-designated lenses are almost all mechanically-coupled i.e. linear focussing.
I have the Panasonic 24mm, is a good lens, but could be better, bought it instead of the sigma cause I couldn't test the sigma at that moment, and I really dislike sigma pulsing. But seems unless you do video the sigma is a better lens, better built, sharper, and cheaper.
I like the pana, its small, light and focuses fast, but it feels like a toy lens, made all of plastic, and for the price I find the construction should be better. I think it's expensive for what you get.
I'm a little disappointed in all of these: the Panasonics have soft corners. The Sigmas have severe focus breathing. Even the Panasonic 35 has noticeable focus breathing, which is well-corrected in their other FF lenses.
I was thinking about the l mount system in the hope that Sigma may release a new foveon camera and hopefully one that shoots 4k video as well, but looking at the quality of the Panasonic lenses, they clearly trail the Sigmas which are also imperfect as the 24mm f2 relies on software for distortion correction as does the Panasonic 35mm 1.8, the Sigma 35mm f2 has some barrel distortion but it’s not as bad as Sigma’s other lenses.
In fact the use of software distortion correction is probably the reason that the Panasonic 35mm 1.8 still has soft corners even af f4 and no matter how much you stop down.
The Leica-Lumix collaborative S PRO line and Sigma ART line have several pieces considered to be possibly the best ever in some respect or other, often trouncing OTUS (the S PRO 50mm bodes well for future primes).
The "HSM" ART lenses usually have mechanical coupling and more optical correction.
The Foveon is coming, just delayed ‘til 2023+ as the technology partners in California didn’t meet Sigma’s standards.
I doubt it would have 4K video as those pipelines are geared for Bayer CMOS data, and processing three layers of colour means heavy computation and heat release, without the significant processing shortcuts developed for flat mosaic sensors.
Maybe a monochrome 4K, though the fp already has the highest quality 4K FF video available, and logically it would carry the sophisticated video features. Personally, I’d prefer the L-mount Foveon to forgo video altogether to minimise technical complications and compromises upon photography.
The Panasonic 24mm 1.8 isn’t what I would call a budget lens at that price.
It will be a long wait for the foveon and you’re right that it’s unlikely to have 4k video at least at full sensor as that would be too much computation. No one has made a 3 chip camera with sensors larger than 1.25 inches, that’s the 8k Sony uhc8300.
I don’t think the Sigma four has the highest quality 4k video, dpreview haven’t published test charts, but I’d say 1. Canon eos r5 4k hq 2. Sony a7r if aps c 3. Fuji x-t 3 series. Panasonics 4k video is less sharp, but with fewer aliasing artefacts.
Anyone else think the focus pull on the Panasonic 24mm looks really odd? The distortion on the image changes as the focus shifts. I've not seen anything like it before...
That’s actually quite normal, if you look at the Panasonic 50mm 1.4 in the samples gallery, when I apply the distortion correction in rawtherapee which does so based on the jpeg, I can see different amounts of barrel distortion depending on the subject distance.
That’s why different reviewers have different figures for distortion as their charts are at a different distance. In fact the Sony 55mm 1.8 goes from slight pincushion for minimum focus to slight barrel at infinity.
That’s why for most Sony cameras which don’t have lossless raw compression, many are worried by what exif data maybe lost by converting to dng to save space, such as the uncompressed raw containing information of focusing distance for the lens correction profile.
Well I am glad that you have ventured beyond the CaNikSonFuji stable.
I recognise that you prefer to review kit that is currently mainstream, but I am glad that the L mount exists both on its own merits and to keep the feet of the market leaders to the fire, both in price and performance terms.
I still have two questions I would like answering on the Panasonic lenses:
(1) Are they repairable - there have been issues with m43 where they basically aren't, so if it fails you get a refurb back, of course if it's a non-warranty repair, like you dropped it, you pay the refurb price. E.g. see: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63206303
(2) Some of the m43 Pannys have significant sample variation, presumably partly due to the construction not allowing tweaking (see #1). Is this true of the S lenses too? E.g. see the 45mm f/2.8 and 42.5mm f/1.2 plots here (partly why I got a Oly 45mm f/1.2 for my GH5 BTW - oh and it's fabulous): https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/03/finally-some-more-m43-mtf-testing-are-the-40s-fabulous/
"Micro 4/3 lenses, in general, have a lot of sample variation. Why this is I can’t say. What I can say is it’s not the fabled “they need to up their QA check” that people imagine happens. Micro 4/3 lenses, as a rule, don’t have any compensating adjustable elements, so what you get at the end of the assembly line is what you get unless something is broken inside."
I may be a little out of date on the repair situation, but I've asked Panny people when I've met them and never got an answer...
Anyone at DPReview, even part-time like Roger, like to provide an update?
Shifted lenses are quite unusual, I just send them back to get another one on the ?one/two? occasion(s) I had one. I've never had anything develop a shift later. Also I'm not in the U.S. I've really only seen Roger be quite nice about Canon, unlike some others where he says after some minor damage they just break them up for parts.
Hi Jon555, I have found tilted or decentered lenses to be quite common. The last 2 lenses I bought(Canon) needed to go back 3 times to get a good one and 2 times to get a good one.
I have had 6 lenses that were quite badly shifted. No repair on the 2 I sent in. Since then learned to just exchange them.
Of course you need to be lucky to get a perfect copy and maybe cant expect that every time. But the manufacturing tolerances are far too loose. If you have a perfect copy of any lens, it is noticeable.
It's difficult as only a few people can test them well, so no really way to get useful stats. (I'm not commenting on how you test them BTW, as I have no idea so won't.)
It was nice to see the CFL football in the sample gallery! The Grey Cup is tomorrow. I am looking forward to a Panasonic full frame range finder style camera about the same size as my GX8. But if I weakened before that and bought the S5, I would want to compare the Panasonic 50mm 1.8 with the Sigma equivalent. Except there doesn't seem to be one. IIs the sharpness of the Panasonic 50mm 1.8 also suspect? Have not read that, (e.g. in the Hands On piece) but wonder if the 50 mm 1.8 also seems to be aimed at video rather than the still photographer. F.
I have the Panasonic 50/1.8. It's great for video, and for scenarios where shallow DOF is required, but for absolute sharpness, the Panasonic 24-105 is superior.
Yeah, the Panasonic is 300g. I actually like it a lot, as I primarily shoot video, and when I do use it for stills, the corners are out-of-focus anyway.
I'm am a super huge fan of manufacturers putting out prime lens groups that all have the same filter thread and similar size+weight across as many of the primes as possible. I think too many people get obsessed about the ultra high end primes at f/1.2 or 0.97 which will have very exacting design characteristics. But to just have a set of f/1.8-2.8 primes that are all similar in size is great for those of us who still want a great prime but aren't in need of razor thin focal depths. Plus you can usually get a set of 3 for less than the price of a single f/1.2 prime.
Nikon did that too. The 70s-80s were the years of the 52mm filter. Multiple manufacturers all producing lenses with a single consistent filter thread size. I can't even imagine anything like that happening these days on a single lens line, let alone all lens makers and all of their respective lens lines.
The trouble is with Tamron they have a few F2.8 primes which require a ridiculously large 67mm filter.
In days of old, Olympus used to have two filer sizes on the old film era Zuiko lenses. 49mm and 55mm. Slower lenses got 49mm and faster 55mm although the there were some exceptions as their 85mm F2 was 49mm and I even think the 24mm F2 may have been as well. But they had a 35mm F2.8 with 49mm filter and the 35mm F2 was 55mm which was the usual division.
I still think this makes perfect sense as opposed to requiring someone who only buys the F2.8 primes with a 67mm filter.
Those 3 Tamron primes were clearly built to hit a certain price point and the filter size was just a side effect of that IMO, the 35/2.8 surely didn't need to be the same size as the 20/2.8 but using the same casing for all three likely made them cheaper. The slower AF motors tie into that... At $200 they're still terrific values tho.
The Tamrons are great value but I don’t think it was a cost issue that lumbered them with 67mm filters. I am pretty sure it was just a desire to standardise the filter size across more than just those lenses. A 20mm F2.8 does need a 67mm filer. The Sony 20mm F1.8 is 67mm. filter size. Although not F2.8 I used to own an Oly 21mm F3.5 and that was one of those 49mm filter size lenses.
I don't think any of them needed 67mm per se, at all, the Samyang 18/2.8 looks better then the 20/2.8 in some ways and it uses 58mm filters... The Tamrons even have as significant vignetting figures as some much smaller lenses. I think they might've been close-ish to that with the 20mm and yeah just decided to match them to most of their other zooms.
Luckily if you want a small(er) ~f2.8 prime there's plenty of other options on E mount and even L mount from Sigma, Samyang, and Sony at 18, 24, 35, 40, 45, 50, and 90mm. :P
The Tamrons aren't any longer than the average f1.8 prime either, and they're really light, it's just that chunky filter size that makes them a bit larger.
@Impuses I am seriously tempted to go for the Sigma 90mm in E Mount. I know the conclusion to the video suggested in Sony-land the 85mm F1.8 was the one to go for but I like the aperture ring and I don’t need anything faster. It would go well with my Sony 24mm & 40mm G lenses. Sony need to bring out a 90mm F2.5 G!
I think both the SY 75/1.8 & Sigma 90/2.8 have some key advatages over the 85/1.8 tbh, even beyond their smaller size. It'd be interesting to see what Sony could do with a smaller or newer short tele.
Well lenses are compromises, it depends on what you want to do but there's always gonna be one. Light, sharp and fast? Breathes. Minimal focus breathing, parfocal? Heavy.
if you want a set that all has the same filter size, they might make amends by using slightly different focal lengths like 180mm instead of 200.
F/1.2 and faster primes range from bad to horrible. The expensive Canon L being bad, and the cheap f/1.0-ish lenses being horrible. (Disclaimer: Canon's f/1.2 lenses are effectively used in portraiture where absolute sharpness is not required.)
If you want extremely-shallow DOF, use a longer focal length.
There's no benefit to soft edges, if you want them soft it's easy to apply a filter in post but it's very hard to make an unsharp image sharper. It's usually a trade-off with some other lens quality though.
There aren’t any benefits to softer edges. The only reason I can see why you’d buy the Panasonic lenses over the Sigma is if you were primarily a video shooter where this does not matter so much and you wanted lenses of a similar weight. If stills photography is your thing then Sigma all the way.
And nothing on whether they focus internally or externally. Same when they did the Nikon 40mm f2 which focuses internal, which is great, but no mention of this.
It’s like they don’t know what to say or how to break a lens down in terms of usability or build quality. They don’t know the difference between sealing designs, how surfaces and materials work with water, on and on.
All they say is “externally it’s a simple lens”. It’s not the lens that simple if that’s all they’ve got to say. There’s more to construction than buttons and sharpness.
@Einride Focus internal? What year is it? Oh, I forgot Canon still exists :D
No really nearly all lenses today focus internally. That's not noteworthy at all anymore. The opposite should be noted. But I can only think of Canon and Fuji GFX with recent releases of externally focusing non-macro lenses. Panasonic, Sigma, Nikon, Sony etc... wouldn't dare to release an externally focussing lens in 2021. I mean internal ring drive or STM is maybe already reason for a reduced rating.
The Panas are likely better sealed too no? IIIRC the Sigmas just have the one gasket at the mount... Sigma did a really good job with all three of their f2s tho, they're optically superb even against some additional competition on E mount.
I would've traded some of that build/weight for better sealing but eh... Can't have it all I guess. If my SY 45 & 75 ever run into issues I'm keen to try out that 65/2.
yip, strange that DPReview mention nothing about sealing... as far as I know the Sigma's are not sealed at all, whereas the Panny's are weather sealed, which is quite a big difference.
@Jostian, The Sigmas are weather-sealed, just not the comprehensive sealing of the premium ART/Sports lines. It’s possible that all new Sigma designs have some level of weather-sealing (at least one older design has had some added just for L-mount, too.)
That's funny, I thought Chris spoke at a sensible pace, as usual. I really enjoy his (and Jordan's) delivery style. I certainly wouldn't want them to slow down!
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