How does the new Panasonic S1 stand up to its full frame mirrorless competition, like the Sony a7III or Nikon Z6? Does 'animal-AF' work on dinosaurs? Will Jordan curl up on the ground in the name of art? We answer the tough questions and more. This episode was shot entirely on the Panasonic S1 in the Canadian Badlands.
I really dislike the video reviews, you can't skim them for the info that is important to me. Too long & time consuming. Too much waffle. As a Panasonic MFT and Canon FF shooter I'm obviously interested in the new FF Panasonic but won't be looking at the video review. Give me print any day. Please!
I remember in m4/3 after the Oly EM5 came out, for a while most thought of Oly as the leader in m4/3 and Panny kind of behind. But Panny kept at it and released new products and kept getting better, to the point where in m4/3 they are now at least as well thought of as Oly, and perhaps even better. Certainly in the video area they have carved out a nice niche.
I think it will be the same with FF MILC: Panny will start out behind the other 3 brands, but their inherent quality and features will build a following, and this will be amplified by the release of future lenses. Already those using the cameras are really liking them if you read the L mount forum.
One point that consistently comes out in comments from the people who have actually used this camera: the EVF is so much better than anything else and transforms the experience of using it.
Consider how important that EVF is: it's how most users will most experience the camera. It's like the screen on a smartphone.
It also allows for an amazing manual focus experience, which can be important for many. In fact it appears to be so good an EVF that some are using manual focus more due to it being so fun. Ironically, the advancing tech may make manual focus a bit more popular again.
But either way, having an spectacular EVF is a huge advantage. I think Panasonic has set a new standard and others will have to match.
@MILC: That's why I always preface my remarks like I have, where I note the opinions of those who have used the camera. I am very transparent.
But have you used the camera? You too make many remarks, although disparaging ones, without having used this camera, and in fact you do the same with other cameras not made by Sony.
So let me get this straight: it's not OK for me to comment on a camera I haven't used, but in a positive way, citing the opinions of those who have used it.... But it's OK for you to comment on a camera that you have not used, but in a very critical way, making sure to denigrate the camera at every turn. Got it.
And I don't know why my comments about this camera should bother you. They are positive and are careful to note when it is the opinions of others.
But I do know why they bother you: because this is not a Sony camera and you must not only promote Sony but insult the other brands.
I can't wait to get my hands on one of these to see how good the Ibis is. After seeing how the M43 camera IBIS was so much better than the A6500 and A7RII, I was told they were better due to smaller sensor size. But then when I compared the Z6 to the A7RIII, I quickly found the Z6 was also noticeably better (despite CIPA ratings - which never seem accurate). I cannot wait to see if the S1 IBIS is as good as the GH5 or the kings of IBIS, the Olys.
Judging from user comments, it appears that now in the FF MILC space that Panasonic and Nikon lead the way in terms of IBIS implementation and performance.
He found the AF to be no problem; got a 90% success rate. He found the colors to be "simply amazing."
Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals found: because it made it so easy to do. Then I did a little online reading and quickly found out what they said was true: if you want good AF performance you MUST use the the options the camera gives you. There are multiple AF modes, each adjustable, along with speed and sensitivity controls. With another day experimenting I quickly found the modes that worked well for me and actually appreciated several things over and above most systems. I got accurate and reasonably quick AF with a great keeper rate, even on birds in flight.
You are going to out-trump Trump with all your false statements and lies. You have never used the camera and I wonder if you even make a living from photography?
Duncan, if you are having trouble with focus, I suggest you get a modern camera like the Panasonic S1 with its super-accurate AF system. If you are addicted to manual focus, you could get a modern camera like the Panasonic S1 with its world-leading electronic viewfinder. It is reported by many to make manual focus super-easy.
It is a fact that many (if not even all) reviews will tell you that the Panasonic S1 has troubles focussing and keeping focus on moving subjects. The Panasonic S series is just flawed. The reason is simple CDAF only.
Can't and do and need not to do anything. Except for staying away from a flawed system that Panasonic has brought to the market to start with.
I called you out before, Duncan, and I'll do it again. You're deliberately spreading mischief and I wonder if you are being paid to? All the reviews state how accurate the autofocus is and many find ability to follow moving subjects works well enough for many scenarios.
Have you actually looked at the video? It will tell - like others have done - that focus hunts and is, not suitable for action photography and like GH-5 pulses for video.
And no I am not being paid like you are being paid for promoting this camera.
Relax all you Sony FANBOYS out there don't be so threatened by what Lumix, Nikon, Canon are doing in the FF MILC space. Competition is good for all of us who are serious about photography & who are not just point-n-shooters. It forces manufacturers to make improvements. Panasonic & Sony have reputations for doing regular firmware updates.
The S1 has good image quality, excellent low-light performance, a superb EVF with a great PicInPic manual focusing aid, a logical menu system, extensive customisation for AF & AE, a rugged build & so many features specially tailored to commercial/pro-photographers that are not available with other FF MILC/DSLR cameras.
I’m NOT suffering from post-purchase cognitive dissonance (despite having switched from Nikon after 15 years & sold all my gear) but judging by the hate speech I’m reading, following online reviews, some of you commentators clearly are.
It underperforms to its competition. Therewith the problem for Panasonic is that it is no competition.
Horrible rolling shutter, Pulsing AF, CDAF only, paid firmware updates, poor video features compared to its sibling the GH5. Poor battery life, bad shooting rate, long blackouts, more expensive than its competitors too, poor choice of lenses.
Actually, the Panasonic S1 and S1r outperform some of the competition, esp. Sony, in areas like ergonomics, usability, EVF, back LCD and touch screen, durability, IBIS, high resolution mode, and color science.
@Duncan M and others, you are all clearly haters of any brand you don't use. I've read through several of your claims about the S1/R and it is obvious you have never used the camera. Your statements are of no value as they are out right lies
@MILC man: you've never used the Panasonic S1 camera and yet you continually criticize it. Why? Oh I know...because it is not a Sony and you do not want any other person liking or using any other brand than Sony.
I freely admit that I have not used the Panny but cite the comments of others. The S1 does have better build quality than Sony, as well as better EVF, IBIS, etc. You do not dispute that.
And I have used the Sony a9 and have been very honest in my impressions of both the good and the bad. But you already know that but leave that out because it doesn't fit your narrative. And the only narrative you push is that no one should like any brand other than Sony. Everyone can see that.
@MILC: I will repost this here, as I have already responded to your funny criticism of me for daring to comment on this Panny when I haven't yet used it:
So let me get this straight: it's not OK for me to comment on a camera I haven't used, but in a positive way, citing the opinions of those who have used it.... But it's OK for you to comment on a camera that you have not used, but in a very critical way, making sure to denigrate the camera at every turn. Got it.
And I don't know why my comments about this camera should bother you. They are positive and are careful to note when it is the opinions of others.
But I do know why they bother you: because this is not a Sony camera and you must not only promote Sony but insult the other brands.
I am bemused by the angst of commentators, the latter who have no intention of ever purchasing either a S1/R & their hate for what Panasonic + Nikon/Canon are doing with FF MILCs. I'm a commercial photographer & a S1/Leica user. People should try actually using one before spouting off. Having based their strong & righteous opinions solely from reviews.
Not a single review, even positive ones (aside from Roger AKA LensRentals) has made mention that the S1/R, for both AF single and continuous shooting, have 9 AF modes + 4 different sets to go with each mode. The latter can be extensively customised by the user to suit different situations &/or their shooting style/s & saved as presets.
Spoiler alert the camera won't do everything for you automatically right out of the box. As a pro-photographer who gets to know my tools, learns and experiments with them I'm OK with that. I'm not a sports/fast-action photographer. If I was a MILC would not be my choice. Video, I use manual focus.
Duncan, is someone paying you to spout your nonsense? If so, they should sack you because you are so clearly wrong with most of your negative comments.
It's very interesting and he does a good job summarizing the relative advantages of each brand. He absolutely loves the ergonomics and feel of the Panasonic, which is emerging as a theme from people who actually use it.
I think it's a bit of a shame that Panasonic (along with Canon and Nikon) just ported over to their first FF mirrorless camera a somewhat tired LCD-dominated top plate layout.
The top plate LCD originated in the film era where cameras didn't have large LCDs on the back.
It was obsoleted by digital and Sony and Fuji (and some others) took the opportunity when designing their mirrorless cameras to add more controls on the top plate that better suit the style of mirrorless shooting - a dedicated exposure compensation dial being a case in point.
I totally disagree, I love having the top LCD for a quick check of settings. I prefer to have something on top of the camera with a minimum on information rather than a giant battery guzzling thing on the back of my camera.
I do however like the dedicated knobs on the Fuji cameras too...
that "giant battery guzzling thing on the back of my camera" is going to be sucking down current regardless of whether or not there is an lcd top plate.
because the evf uses a similar amount of power, and you'll have either one or the other lit up.
the only reason for the lcd on top is to be able to read settings with the camera in sleep mode, which is useless functionality, that takes up valuable camera real estate.
Same things were said when that LCD was used on DLSRs. Now same claims for mirrorless....... Lcd if useful if you want to have a quick peak at settings without looking at the back screen. In fact you can turn off the back LCD completely and use only top screen. Just set EVF to turn on when you put your eye on that and you're done. You save lots of battery this way as well. I don't always hold the back LCD on my face so top LCD is useful when I am holding the camera. You may think otherwise. I think Rubberdials will love top LCD and claim that all real cameras must have top LCD when Sony introduces top LCD in their cameras :)
""I think Rubberdials will love top LCD and claim that all real cameras must have top LCD when Sony introduces top LCD in their cameras :)""
You'd only think that if you never read my posts and had no idea what I thought.
I wasn't in favour of top plate LCDs in the DSLR era, let alone the mirrorless one. That's evident from my original comment that says '(they) were obsoleted by digital.'
Sony will not be introducing a top plate LCD to mirrorless cameras. They are a little more forward thinking than that, thankfully.
Why would you need a lcd plate for a "quick check of settings" when sooner or later you'll be looking at the lcd or EVF to adjust and take the pic anyway?
That's like needing an lcd display on your tv to let you know what channel its on.
Everyone has different preferences with regards to that top LCD. But I bet Canon/Nikon consulted with many of the pro's that use their equipment and found out that most find it useful and do not want it removed.
Of course Sony doesn't have many pro's using their equipment to consult...and so they may be excused for this point. :)
"But I bet Canon/Nikon consulted with many of the pro's that use their equipment and found out that most find it useful and do not want it removed."
Did they also consult with pros about about the AF and get told 'We don't want very good AF tracking, and make sure there's no tracking above 3fps and no AF at all above 5fps." :)
Of course Canon and Nikon didn't 'consult with pros' about the top plate LCD. They just ported it over because neither of them had any prior investment or interest in FF mirrorless, they were railroaded into it by Sony lighting a fire under their ass.
They took so little notice of how Sony had iteratively improved their milcs over the years they both failed to set the viewfinder eye sensor to shut off when the rear screen is pulled out - something Sony once suffered from but corrected.
Buy a Canon or Nikon milc and you can enjoy the endless frustration of your image disappearing as your body triggers the eyepiece sensor like it's 2015 all over.
@RubberDials: hahaha...it's funny you mention Sony and ergonomics, because Sony has the worst ergonomics of anyone. Sony's EVF is the worst in image quality, their LCD is the worst, and most models lack even a basic touchscreen. This is funny due to the fact that Sony makes touch screen smartphones, makes TVs, etc...and so should know both touch screen and electronic display tech very well. I guess they just want to cut costs.
I mean, even their top of the line a9, which is very impressive in many ways, lacks a proper functioning and well implented touch screen. That's just plain dumb in an era where everyone is trained to expect and use touch screens by their smartphones.
It's a somewhat pathetic to counter statements about the poor AF tracking of Canon and Nikon milcs with comments about a touch screen, which has nothing to do with photography. No shot was ever missed because a camera had limited touch screen implementation.
Your other points are simply wrong. The Nikon viewfinder was criticised in the DPR review for being laggy, the Canon for behaving erratically. Sony is the only manufacturer who offers a double refresh rate option of 120Hz on their VF.
As for ergonomics, Sony has some of the best of any camera on the market. The A7III for example has four custom buttons, a joystick, a mode dial, an exposure comp dial and THREE input dials as well as a four-way controller. No other milc has this. The R doesn't even have a mode dial or a joystick. The A9 adds manual controls for drive mode and focus. Both cameras allow focus point placement by touch screen, unlike Nikon.
As usual, nothing you say has any substance or is even true.
@rubberdials: you write " It's a somewhat pathetic to counter statements about the poor AF tracking of Canon and Nikon milcs with comments about a touch screen..." LOL...this thread was started by a comment on the top LCD screen and ergonomics...by YOU...that is what led to this discussion.
Re ergo's...you cite only stats about the Sony's...ergo's are more than stats and how many buttons and controls. Most consider Sony ergo's the worst. And the A9 touchscreen doesn't allow you to operate the menu's, or even to swipe between taken images. All it does is allow touch screen focus. Strange.
But again, all of these cameras have their strong points and weaknesses, and all can take great images. But the Canon and Nikon cameras feel much better in the hand, and as a whole offer better ergo's. It seems that this Panny also offers great ergo's. Sony should learn a few things.
I'm getting back ache from bending down to your level so I won't write much.
You're a bit like a boxer lying on the canvas spluttering through bleeding lips about how he's going to KO his opponent whilst slipping in and out of consciousness. Don't you know when you're beat?
Why do you keep on repeating the same nonsense day after day? You don't understand the first thing about ergonomics or human-oriented design.
You talk about the Canon and Nikon both being better - the handling between those cameras is chalk and cheese. The Nikon is closer to the Sony than the Canon. But of course you would claim that a house brick had good handling if it was made by Canon, and correspondingly if the R was a Sony camera you would be deriding it every day.
You have become a sort of Canon shaman, talking up invisible mystical properties whilst denigrating the 'on paper specs' of much better cameras. It would be funny if it wasn't grindingly tedious. And it's pros, not pro's.
@rubberdials: There is a rule in rhetoric and debating that when someone has no answer in a debate and just starts throwing childish insults, they have lost. You have lost.
It is you who has no answers. Why do you keep repeating the incorrect statement you made below about IBIS? Where is your response to that? Give it a few days and you'll repeat the same false information again elsewhere because it suits your agenda.
Every day across multiple threads you post the same statements. Canon cameras have some mystical soul that trumps their poor performance and spec, Sony is not a camera company and will go out of business/regret their mount/be surpassed by everyone. Or Sony users are terrible people.
It could be summarised as: Sony = BAD, everything not Sony = GOOD.
I've never seen you post some accurate corrective information, help anyone out or proffer an anecdote that wasn't a thinly veiled dig at Sony.
Even my very humble contention about the LCD top plate above is further than you've ever gone in making an original observation.
And yet you are called 'Thoughts R Us'. The thoughts are non existent. The propaganda is stale and mean.
@RubberDials: Hahaha...you sure know how to gaslight.
First, I have said nice things about Sony.
Second, your constant drum beat is that Sony is good, everything else is bad. But you do that in threads meant to focus on all of the brands other than Sony. That's poor taste and rude. No one asked you to bring negativity to every other thread about every other brand than Sony. If you like Sony, then fine. But please stay in those forums and threads about Sony equipment. Clearly you are not that jazzed about Sony because you spend so much time on the other brands.
With all due respect, you are sound and fury signifying nothing.
Getting back to the top LCD thing...I've used both, with and without, and frankly I don't miss it on the A7Riii. I think those coming from the Canon/Nikon DSLR world are probably kind of used to having a top LCD. It used to be that cameras with top LCD were generally the high end models, so many old timers associate that feature with camera quality.
However, I've come to view the top LCD as a waste of space. Yes, it can be handy at times, but if you need reading glasses to see it that's a pain. I can read my EVF stats very well without glasses much more clearly and quickly.
Regarding the touchscreen, I frankly don't feel the need for it. I instinctively use the forward and backward control wheel which is second nature to me.
Rubberdials, you started LCD discussion but suddenly shifted to AF? What? That's why you are a Sony troll. You try to change the topic to where Sony seems to be stronger and bash other brands. I'll be curiously waiting to see your reaction when Sony comes up with a real professional body with a top LCD.
I found the argument above amusing. My Sony DOES have a top LCD and it's a great feature! I've had cameras with both - I definitely prefer having it but it's not a "must have". Unless the camera wants to convince me it's a "Pro body", in which case a top LCD is mandatory and a sticky-out mode dial is annoying...
You need to read the whole thread. I mention AF as a counter to Throught R Us's moronic and trolling claim that Canon has a top plate LCD because Canon consulted pros and Sony doesn't have one because because Sony had no pros to consult. The mention of AF is to point up the absurdity of that. If you can't see that you're not reading my posts carefully enough.
I asked you before not to call me a troll, because I'm not one. I rarely express my personal feelings about brands (I have in this sub thread) I try to talk about gear using quotes from reviews. Trolling involves a level of deceit and dissembling and I always express my feeling plainly (and maybe sometimes bluntly) so that should be obvious).
I've told you I don't like top plate LCDs. I owned a Sony camera with one (A77) and four Minolta camera with one. Once I've told you something that should be enough.
The top plate LCD was introduced when there were no backplate LCDs, in the film era. On cameras with an LCD in the viewfinder as well as on the backplate I believe it is redundant.
And I'm surprised on a forum where people set such store by weather sealing and the integrity of gear it isn't more disparaged. They have a finite life, completely fail at certain high or low temperatures and are relatively easily cracked.
$3398 with the 24-105mm. That's a lot of money for a big, heavy kit with less than excellent continuous autofocus and video. Perhaps a firmware update will resolve the focus issues later? But competition is tough. Nikon, Canon and now Panasonic continue to play catch-up with Sony in the full frame mirrorless market.
It depends on how you look at it. Sony is playing catchup with regards to ergonomics and durability, Sony has IBIS, but is playing catchup to Panasonic and Nikon, which outperform in that area. Sony is playing catchup in terms of EVF quality to Panasonic. Sony is behind in the touch screen and buffer as well.
At this point Sony does have nice AF; I've tried the a9 and the AF is pretty amazing. Don't know about the A7 third gen models.
But Sony doesn't have any real edge in IQ any longer. In fact, Panasonic has some nice features that Sony doesn't have, like that high res EVF, that high resolution mode, night vision for night use of the screen, etc.
Sony no longer gets to define what the meaningful features are any longer.
Thoughts R Us I'd say you pretty well nailed it. There are elements of other companies accomplishments that exceed Sony's capabilities at this time. In m opinion about the ONLY thing Sony can hang it's hat on is it's focus abilities. Otherwise they have the other companies biting at their heels quite nicely. If Panny can manage to come out with some firmware updates and get that DFD a bit more up to snuff it will be a real thorn in Sony's side. This next 12 to 18 months is sure going to be interesting
It is also fairly dishonest to write of Sony playing 'catch up' since Sony has not released a FF camera since any of the FF milcs - Nikon z6, z7, Canon R, RP, Panasonic S1,S1r - hit the market.
If they had released a camera that didn't match those specs it would be appropriate, but as things stand those cameras are simply newer products which one would expect to offer newer technology.
Thoughts R Us thinks that repeating the same false claims over and over will somehow make it true, lol
these claims that proprietary dfd will undergo a miraculous transformation, that will make it comparable to ospdaf, are hilarious! it didn't happen with dfd on m4/3, and it won't happen with ff either... Panasonic has been working on dfd for years now, to little avail.
Yeah and how much AI was utilized several years ago when mft was fairly well advanced........oh about 0%. The new AI technologies now along with the advanced algorithms being developed are at a break neck pace. Note even Sony's advancements of the A9's just for a sample. Don't think for one minute Panasonic is completely asleep at the wheel. We have NO idea what the DFD can and or may be capable of with these technologies applied in the next few years. But apparently you can look into the future and predict perfectly ;-)
The best way I could possibly describe ownership of a S series camera is unlike all too many I've owned, it has a "personality" which I happen to feel is a fun one to get accustomed to. Some may wish to scoff at this concept, but I feel the ergonomics of it alone are quite alluring. I've never had even a pro body before where the instant access to the primary controls was so very easy to work with. That and every time I grab it it just exudes quality and solidity. No cheap parts used on this bad boy. Others use plastic in all the wrong places if I do say so.
@RubberDials: you write " It is also fairly dishonest to write of Sony playing 'catch up' since Sony has not released a FF camera since any of the FF milcs - Nikon z6, z7, Canon R, RP, Panasonic S1,S1r - hit the market."
The expression "playing catch up" has nothing to do with whether Sony has released a new model or not since the recent releases from competitors; it only means they are behind. Apparently, you agree with me, since you have to cite some trivial argument of semantics. And yes, even after all of these years Sony is sadly behind in ergonomics; it shocks me that they haven't made significantly more progress than they have. And their touch screen implementation or lack of it is atrocious; funny for an electronics company that makes smartphones as well.
@ProDude: thanks again for your hands on impressions; of all the people here, you seem to be one of the few qualified to actually comment on the camera.
And the ergonomics advantages you cite are of clear advantage to pro's and serious hobbyists. In fact ergonomics in many cases is more important in getting the shot than any advantage Sony may have in AF. And that's all Sony has going for it at this point, and it will be eroded away with time, as the other companies move forward.
Stating Sony has poor ergonomics is a broken record. Learn how to use the camera and modify it to suit your shooting style. Add an L bracket, customize it.
I agree that the Sony is not a big camera with that sweet in the hand feel, but I'm very grateful for the compact design and lighter weight and size. I don't want to carry around a huge camera. It's a compromise I'm willing to make.
Why are we talking about this in a Panasonic thread??
Sony's poor ergonomics is a broken record repeated many times because it is true. We are talking about it in a Panasonic thread because with every article on a non-Sony camera we have Sony fans/trolls who show up to denigrate that camera and try to promote Sony. Many many people notice that.
There is this brilliant observation from Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals, based on the comments he gets on his site::
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken, 1917
*Sonyfanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy with other equipment. Roger Cicala, 2018
I didn't like the video stuff at first (not so easy to watch in the office, right.. ;-) ) but they are kind of entertaining and easy to watch, so I enjoy both formats now.
They are not youtueb stars? Sounds like a compliment to me. Chris is probably the best photographer on the DPR team and his real world experience is FAR more useful than some studio assessment.
User93 it's just the very deep technical reviews we all came here for are more useful than some light jolly videos I like being told about particular quirks and settings prone to shutter shock for example or how to avoid weaker aspects of equipment which this site has been good at before trying to be the next kai or lok
Personally, I preferred them before they joined dpreview. They definitely came across as more independent then. I sometimes wonder if they are constrained by having to agree with an overall point of view connected to this site, where various features are considered more important than others (and which may not entirely reflect their personal views)? Alternatively, it's a happy marriage and nobody will ever say otherwise!
Great job!!! I love DPR video review. When I read a full written review, I sometimes have to guess /wonder what a reviewer said but with the video review, it's easy to understand what you guys are talking about in a real world. If you guys can get enough sponsors, you could do a TV show. Watching your video review on a big screen would be great!
I mean, you can watch it on a big screen. I often cast it onto my smart TV to truly appreciate the images captured and get a full sense of Jordan's unique and masterful cinematography 🧐
I've been watching Chris and Jordan for years loving their takes on equipment from their video's they did before they came to Dpreview. It was a huge move on Dpreviews part to bring them into the camp. I may not love everything they have to say, but it is typically reality like it or not.
@JordanDrake It's well-deserved. Keep up the awesome work! Like others here, I watch reviews for equipment I may never hope to touch because I enjoy the production quality, and the humor, that's put into it. The educational stuff is always appreciated, as well.
Not good to hear the GH5 models would be used over this for video.Looks like Panasonic have created another fine camera line.Enjoyed the review a lot.Thanks.
Well, the S1 is really an all-purpose model that does video pretty well, while the GH5/s are more specialized video/stills hybrid cameras. I think Panasonic might make an L-mount counterpart in the future.
Please keep making these videos. They are enjoyable and informative.
They don't take as long to make as in depth reviews and can be released faster. The complete reviews can come later and this allows the site to take more time to get the hose right.
I remain amused by the number of whiny children complaining about an ADDITIONAL feature from DPR reviewing cameras even though the DPR team has said dozens of times that no, these will not replace the traditional written reviews.
But sure, just keep complaining about well done, informative, and fast (compared to the full written reviews anyway) additional features you do not have to view.
To DPR, Chris, and Jordan - I enjoy these and clearly many other people do too. Thank you guys. These are a feature for me most every Saturday morning.
yes, these video reviews cover ground that you just can't get in a written review, in part because they are usually shot with the camera that's being reviewed.
seeing the actual focus hunting and evf blackout on this s1, for example, makes it a total non-starter for me.
but someone else might see something that works for what they shoot; it's valuable info either way.
Thanks for watching and the kind words! I think more and more readers are realizing that we're not impeding the written content. More stuff for everyone!
MILCman - "seeing the actual focus hunting and evf blackout on this s1, for example, makes it a total non-starter for me, but someone else might see something that works for what they shoot"
Yep, seeing through the eye of the camera is far more helpful than just reading a review, although I'd need several objective reviews, at least 2 or 3 videos, and a handful of subjective reports to really form an opinion. And then I'd need to try the camera in a store, and either hire or borrow a copy, before making a final decision.
Jordan - Something else that might be useful is if the reviews included an indication of the various zone AF areas - we normally only get shown the face-detection and eye-AF stuff. The relative sizes of the various zone AF areas vary a lot from one camera to another, and some are more useful than others.
Thanks to you and Chris for the great video reviews!
I agree that things like the viewfinder footage, real-time footage of the back screen etc. is useful. These could also be included as links in the written reviews, of course. They probably are already sometimes, but not always. Viewfinder blackout plus shutter audio should probably be standard items? If the shutter audio were recorded under controlled conditions, then we could compare between cameras.
Mescalamba - " Videos are too time consuming" - That's the most illogical thing I've heard today. You really must be some kind of demon speed-reader if you can read a full review faster than the time you'd spend watching one of the excellent dpr videos.
1) I dont think they excellent or anywhere near it
2) I dont read full review, I just check samples and conclusion and make my own (after camera is long enough in the wild for others to contribute with their real life experience, since reviews are usually pretty far from real life)
There isnt really much else when one needs or wants to buy a camera. Tho I suggest loaning camera if possible, before buying, thats worth more than any other input.
Mescalamba - I think it makes a lot of sense to fully read as many reviews as possible, listen to many opinions, and watch a few videos. It all helps towards building a mental picture of what to expect.
I also always download and thoroughly read the instruction manual of every camera that I consider purchasing, as you can learn a great deal about AF and customising limitations that way.
Where I do agree with you is that borrowing or hiring a camera is a very good idea.
The more information you expose yourself to, the more likely you are to become aware of the facts that will affect your final decision. It's silly to dismiss the opinions of others. You may disagree with them, but you may also learn something valuable.
Remember - A camera system is a massive financial investment for most people, and what you choose now will most likely be what you're stuck with for the next 5 years.
I watched again the video and the samples.. Thanks DPR, I really enjoy this mix of fun and information. Please keep going. The High Res Mode looks greatly useless with the current lenses. I am wondering if in the end, the OMD EM-1M2 or E-M1X 's high res mode, in practice, match the capability of the S1R/S1..
The camera does not quiet match my requirements... but I did enjoy watch the video.
High Res mode doesn't push lenses more than the normal mode. The camera takes several 24MP pictures and then combine them. As long as a lens can resolve 24MP, everything is fine.
ah. but if it move the sensor 1/4 or 1/2 a pixel.. then it should push the resolution.. and so the lens. I mean in the end you get the boost in resolution (24 to 96 Mpx) on the same surface. (?)
In the end, I do prefer the philosophy of Olympus instead of Panasonic: 20 Mpx is enough most of the time, High Res for special shoots, and *bonus* Panasonic will soon release a f1,7 standart zoom to balance the sensor performances..
Shifting the sensor a fraction of a pixel width basically means that you're using a "virtual" sensor with higher resolution, and the lens needs to be capable of resolving that.
I have used EM5II and EM1 II. Even with the cheapest kit lenses, high-res mode is amazing. I don't think Olympus 14-42mm kit lens can resolve 50 or 64MP in an m43 sensor but somehow it does. The sensor moves here and there, and takes photos. Each time the sensor takes 1 photo (24MP in S1, 20MP in EM1 II). 1 photo. 1 photo of native resolution. So the lens has to resolve only the native resolution. Again for S1: 1 photo each time. 1 photo of 24MP. That's it. It takes several 24MP and then combines them.
Yes, but the extra detail that is revealed "between the pixels", so to speak, is only visible because the lens already resolves it. Moving the sensor about can only reveal detail that is already present in the image projected by the lens. If the lens doesn't see it in the first place, it can't be captured by the sensor no matter how much you move it around.
Can't speak about others results, only my own. With the 24-105 lens on the S1 it is producing some remarkable Hi Rez results. As is so often the case each person may be doing some little thing different that yields different results. Just don't make the determination a feature is useless when in fact it's amazing and "some" other reviewers out there have also found this to be the case.
Garbage in, garbage out, if the lens can't resolve enough detail in the original image so that there is a difference between pixels when the camera takes that and compares it with info from one pixel over on the next frame, then it's effectively handicapped when merging the frames. It's not like stitching where it's a more additive process to get your end result, better lenses make high res mode more impressive and it's been proven quite a few times (by DPR and users).
Thank you for this video and not harping on the flip screen. Many other Panasonic reviews focus on the lack of a flippy screen. I think from a photography view, the in lens axis tilt screen is the best. Panasonic, please keep this moving forward. I wish Olympus would go back to this style that was in the Em1, but lost in the Em5mk2 and Em1 mk2. Videographers may want a flippy screen, but I find them to be a pain for photography. The no banding issue, also makes this camera interesting from a multi spectra point. The Z6 was shown to be useless for UV photography due to the banding. Even being a problem for IR photography. This maybe the best camera moving forward for photography outside the visible range.
"I think from a photography view, the in lens axis tilt screen is the best" – that's your opinion to which your perfectly well entitled, but other photographers have different opinions.
But it's not just a matter of opinion. It's a fact that in surroundings which restrict the photographer's room to move, the tilt-swivel screen offers several degrees more freedom in where to position the camera to get a shot than a tilt-only screen. On the other hand, it is also a fact that the tilt-only screen tends to be slightly easier to operate, that it is less showy when shooting from the hip, and that it can be easier to aim, especially with telephoto lenses, when the screen is at least horizontally centered on the optical axis. [cont'd]
So it's back to opinion only – in the end your choice depends on your personal preferences and your individual kind of photography which of both is better for you. For you, it might be the tilt-only screen. For me, it is the tilt-swivel screen.
By the way, if I remember correctly, the first *five* interchangeable lens cameras to offer a tilt-swivel screen were photography-only cameras, they didn't even do video: Olympus E-3, E-30, E-620, Panasonic DMC-L10, DMC-G1.
Unfortunately, there is no objectively "best for photography" screen type. Maybe manufacturers should offer both in every camera they make, to satisfy both groups of customers ;-)
Yes, I have the Olympus E3 and once in a while used the tilt screen. But with the Em1, I use it all the time. It really is better for me. I just want to comment as I don't want it lost. Too many reviews focus on it and it may seem as the inaxis is bad. I think the Fuji x-t100 is the only camera with both types of flippy screen functions. Not sure why others haven't included that mechanism. Maybe its not durable over time or they have a restrictive patent.
dbateman - I totally agree that in almost every situation apart from vlogging, an on-axis tilting screen is a much better option than the fully articulating type.
For macro photography in particular, an off-axis swing out screen makes it harder to line up the camera with the subject.
For any sort of action photography it's much harder and more tiring to track a subject if the screen is off-axis.
I'm very happy to see the Panasonic S1R adopting the Fujifilm-type screen, which provides the best of both worlds.
If people want to do vlogging or selfies, they should buy a camera more suitable for those purposes. All pro and semi-pro stills cameras should IMO have tilting screens.
X-T100's implementation has too many joints that may fail in the long run but it is functional. How the LCD moves is a personal choice. To me Canon's and Olympus' approach is good but you may prefer others.
Here is what the estimable Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals wrote using the Panny for a week: "The question I had going in was how well the autofocus would work, and after 1 day I was frustrated with it. Then I did a little online reading and quickly found out what they said was true: if you want good AF performance you MUST use the the options the camera gives you. There are multiple AF modes, each adjustable, along with speed and sensitivity controls. With another day experimenting I quickly found the modes that worked well for me and actually appreciated several things over and above most systems. I got accurate and reasonably quick AF with a great keeper rate, even on birds in flight."
He also noted "The optical viewfinder is the best I’ve ever shot with – I manually focused with it simply because it made it so easy to do."
Bottom line: the AF on this camera for the most users in most situations will be fine, perhaps even more accurate than most other cameras.
I'm sure wedding, event photogs and PJs who have to react quickly to unexpected and fast changing situations, will love having to fiddle around with the AF system to optimize it for specific situations.
And that's like, more than half the amount of pros.
Yeah.. but the AF make the EVF "wobbling" all the time. This is very frustrating at first glance.. Although maybe one can get used to..
I guess if one would have the choose, one would buy a camera with stable VF.. I mean you get an amazing high res, high rate FPS but it's wobbling all the time.. pretty frustrating.
@GrapeJam: I believe the point that Roger makes is that once you know how to use the AF, it's quite competent. The idea is that once you know how to use the camera, it becomes easy...you know, just like with every other high end camera out there. It's not like you have to go through the learning curve again every time you use the camera.
If you're trying to use these cameras as a point and shoot, that's not what they are for...and not in any way like a pro would use them.
Please do not attempt to spin what Roger wrote to diminish the camera. I am sure most pro's would be fine using this device.
@Thoughts R Us: Plenty of fancy thoughts and no real actions.
Slow down. You have posted enough. People will decide for themselves, rationally or irrationally, whatever. You don't have to sell anything on behalf of Panasonic.
Count me along with what Roger Cicala has said. Indeed if you aren't smart enough to work with the tools they give you on this camera, you might as well buy an "auto" type focus setup like Sony or Nikon. This is indeed a professional tool and as such offers a ton of configurability to customize it in every imaginable way to each and every individuals needs or wants. The focusing is a perfect example. I've never been a manual focus guy but this camera has a system that is so fast, easy and precise to use I can't help but dive in from time to time just for the heck of it. And yeah, the EVF is indeed another league
@MILC: at least I'm not criticizing a camera I've never used. I cited the opinion of a respected expert in noting that once someone actually learns how to use the camera, the AF works very well. Depending on what you want to do, this camera may be better than others.
So if the standard is not to comment on a camera one has not used, then that means all of MILC man's comments about numerous cameras should not count.
BTW, I'm reminded of another gem by Roger: the fact that some very vocal Sony users cannot stand that others may be happy with cameras from other brands. It's a phenomenon we've all seen.
Indeed not ALL of us are shooting fast moving subjects. LOL. What a concept. Like that is a prerequisite to being a bona fide camera. Sheesh. Yeah I've noted, even being a Sony owner, that the others who have them sure aren't very forgiving in any regard. It's as if they are blessed with the golden chalice and can do no wrong and all those that don't have what they have are poor unfortunates. Oh well welcome to the internet.........
Now everything he says is considered the sole truth for you? His lame comment about Sony usera apply to users from ALL brands and formats. Canon fanboys, Fuji fanboys, m43 fanboys... you are a Cicalafanboy.
I suggest you all actually use the camera, as I am. Rodger AKA LensRentsls is 100% correct with the AF tuning. The S1/R has never been pushed as a sports/fast-action machine gun. A Nikon D5 still out performs a Sony A9 for sports
The biggest issue with the focus isn’t its ability to track or the technology behind it. Panasonics (and Leicas sharing the Pana system) have a visible focus hunt (albeit quickly) which totally detracts from the image making process. If you want to talk about a camera that ‘feels like a computer / video game’ it’s a Panasonic with DfD. Yes other systems use CDAF as well, but move more and more away towards using PDAF most of the time.
This is one of the reasons why I use the EOS R. I’m sure others will find spec sheet items to pan it on and moan about crops in videos (but don’t themselves make videos), but the R does not hunt in focus. It doesn’t pixelate during focus acquisition and it does minimal sensor flashing (compared to all other systems). As such it is the closest to an OVF + EVF experience of them all.
This is something that is greatly understated IMO.
@ Oztuart - You’re not understanding. I’m not talking about the cameras ability to obtain focus. I’m talking about the user experience while it does so.
Wade, yes I don't understand because you are not specific. AF-S with Panasonic cameras is instant and there is no problem whatsoever. If you mean AF-C please say so and do not generalize like "focus is problemmatic with Panasonic".
@ Androole and Oztuart - Sorry but AF-S is quick, it is not instant. From the users perspective the lens hunts (very rapidly) back and forth. This is distracting for me as a (potential) user. It isn't just on this camera, but on all Panasonic DfD cameras I've owned. You might also be defenders and say you don't see tearing as an issue in their LCOS EVFs, but I see it very clearly.
No other manufacturer is completely ignoring this issue.
This pulsing becomes MORE obvious with AF-C because it doesn't just do it for a moment and stop, but continually does it. This is distracting to the point of being completely useless (for me).
Wade, which camera and lenses are you talking about? My experience is just the opposite. Or maybe you are talking about very low light where all cameras would struggle?
the video roundup that jordan did on this camera was outstanding, and it's going to be especially helpful to m4/3 video shooters.
that said, given how bad dfd af is, I would have really liked to have seen a simple parfocal zoom test in this video... Panasonic is clearly targeting this camera to video shooters, but it won't be of much use if there aren't any video-centric lenses, like the sony 28-135 powered zoom.
a parfocal panasonic zoom, with minimal breathing issues, would be helpful, even if it's not a power zoom, because you wouldn't need to be using video dfd af nearly as much.
DFD AF is not bad...that's way over exaggerated...
But serious video shooters use manual focus anyway...I really don't see why all of a sudden video AF matters, except to inexperienced amateurs (like me!)
I think you’ll find that many of the new MILC system zooms are designed to be (at least electronically) parfocal. This means that the lens actually adjusts focus for you while zooming to maintain focus. The Sony lens designs are like this and Canon, Nikon and Panasonic have all said they are designing lenses to minimise breathing and be parfocal.
at least one of the z-mount zooms is rumored to have that near-parfocal capability, but given the abject lack of powered zooms by companies like olympus and nikon, there doesn't appear to be much of a push in the video-centric direction... it's understandable, making parfocal zooms with minimal breathing is expensive.
that's why we need to see video-centric lens testing in camera reviews... the companies that are doing it need to be recognized for their efforts.
It wasn’t just one lens or one ‘kinda - sorta’ deal. There are multiple manufacturers that have stated their designs are parfocal and minimise breathing - Panasonic, Nikon and Canon have all said this (on top of Sony doing so for specific lenses).
I do believe this is a focus ‘trick’ of sorts where they use the focus motor to make adjustments to the focus based on focal length to maintain exact focus. They are ‘real’ parfocal lenses.
lenses that don't have back focus adjustment capability can't be truly parfocal, and that describes what you are referring to... the sony 28-135 is in that category, since it doesn't have a back focus adjustment.
point is, we need to see some tests of this back focus capability, because very few reviewers are doing it.
This is a formidable system and will grow in popularity. No one should count Panasonic out.
It offers a robust body with great build quality, great ergonomics and menu, so far best in class EVF, Panasonic's great video quality and feature set, and excellent stills quality.
Just like the Panasonic GH line came to carve out a very nice niche in the market, expect Panasonic to do the same here.
Thoughts - Yes I agree that the Panasonic has a huge amount of potential, but they do need to get the DFD issues sorted out.
They *are* a major concern to many people, particularly sports & wildlife photographers who may spend hours at a time looking through a viewfinder.
In the case of the Panasonic-Olympus alliance, the "advantages" of DFD are only available on Panasonic's own lenses, Olympus lenses only work on Pannies in normal CDAF mode.
So there will be doubts about whether Sigma lenses will use DFD on Panny bodies. This leaves a lot of questions and doubts about how the S1 and S1R will perform, particularly in C-AF.
Apparently, Panasonic L lenses are completely "dead" when fitted to Leica SL bodies (no AF, no aperture control), which further magnifies doubts about compatibility within the L-alliance.
@ Entoman - Not sure if that is pre or post update. Leica released a firmware update to ensure compatibility. I believe there are some *changes* to the mount spec now, which should be on everything moving forward.
Wade - My understanding is that it was the changes to the mount spec that actually caused the incompatibility isses with the SL. If Leica have made an update for the SL since then, it's good news.
last time i looked, only three lens companies appeared to have access to the proprietary Panasonic dfd data interface, so there isn't going to be a large line up of lenses, at all.
if there is no dfd capability for dslr lens adapters, you'll be limited to using cdaf on 3rd party lenses, like canon ef-mount.
This is funny...GoodKnight noted that there are 3 companies making lenses for this camera system, and the conclusion is that means a relatively fast build up of native lenses. I subscribe to this theory.
Then MILC man notes that there are 3 companies making native lenses for this camera system, and his conclusion is that this means not a large lineup of lenses.
I think what MILC is saying is that using other lenses with adapters, there will be limitations due to CDAF. But that is puzzling. One, because clearly the OP was talking about native lenses for the system and indeed that is the norm. Two, because adapted lenses from manufacturers outside of the camera company don't always work great. Three, because some will intend to use adapted lenses with manual focus or won't mind CDAF.
this is really funny... Thoughts R Us clearly doesn't understand how dfd works, nor does he have any idea what a "large lineup of lenses" really is.
he should take a look at lens listings on b&h, for example... there are something like 18 brands selling f-mount glass, 19 brands selling ef-mount lenses, and 21 brands selling e-mount lenses.
but he's impressed with 3 brands making l-mount lenses, lol
so far all other lens brands are locked out from using proprietary dfd, because they aren't part of the Panasonic cabal... that is really not a good scenario for increasing the popularity of a lens mount.
given that e-mount has the highest brand acceptance of any modern af mount, the formula for success is obvious... and it's also why there are more lens adapters for e-mount.
@MILC man: Sony E-mount cannot accept Canon RF lenses or Nikon Z lenses...and that will be a problem for Sony going forward, as those lenses roll out and become in many cases the gold standard for their type.
@Thoughts R Us: People are adapting lenses vor several reasons: 1. The want to port the lenses of their old DSLRs to their new mirrorless cameras 2. They need a lens that is not available on their type of camera 3. They want to "play" with special lenses For 1. not many people will go from RF or Z to E-mount, so no need for people in that group to use an adapter... For 2. the mirrorless system with the most lenses of the 3 is the Sony E-mount system, so it would be more of a problem for Canon and Nikon then for Sony not to have an adapter For 3. There are not many RF and Z lenses that are really very interesting to have on the E-mount. Yes Canon offers some lenses with wider aperture. but not very cheap.... And for RF and Z users, looking at the smaller and (most of the time) cheaper E-mount lenses, making the mirrorless cameras from Sony a lot smaller when in use, would make them LOVE an adapter for E-mount lenses... And for high quality lenses don't forget the Sony GM lenses....
you’re really over the top. So if tomorrow I set up my own pinhole camera system that will be a major problem for other manufacturers because they can’t adapt my pinhole?
A review is exactly what this is, definitely not a preview. "Video preview" would suggest that a more detailed video review will follow, which isn't the case. And it's not a prelude to the written review, either, it's a complementary review in a different format.
I was being sarcastic. Of course these video reviews are great, it's a different take, a different opinion from two real experts in photo AND video. I really see no downside.
There is a thread below this one on the same issue: DPR is also going to do its traditional written review, but those take longer to put out.
The video is a nice feature to have in addition to the written one. We can have both.
There is no requirement that every mention of a camera has to repeatedly list the specs; those are readily available in numerous other places and will be available in the written review.
Also, specs do not tell the whole story; it is good that are reviews on the camera that go beyond the specs.
Thoughts R Us: I fully agree with you. At this moment specs are not very important any more. Look at how close cameras are today. People can't tell what camera took a picture (when conditions and settings in the cameras are the same). Every camera has around 24 or 40 MP (and even the real difference between those two are way smaller then the pixel count make it look like). People should pick the camera that has the lenses they need, and then looka t the way the camera feels in THEIR hands, they should not trust in others, every body is different and so cameras that are great for one might be bad for others.
Looks like a great start for Panasonic FF cameras. In spit of thus though, I think unless someone is staring out from scratch building a FF system, Panasonic in my opinion isn’t likely to draw in Nikon and Canon users. They may pull in some Sony users who want a more comfortable body. Although, Sony has stellar image quality, their bodies are ergonomically atrocious.
I'm not sure sony users, that chose sony mainly because of the technologic advancements and smaller size, will be very interested in switching to a camera that doesn't perform and is much heavier and bigger in size.
I do agree that most uses of any brand do not switch unless that brand lets them down in a very big way.
But there may be one type of Sony user tempted by this Panasonic: the ones who bought into Sony wanting a FF mirrorless hybrid to do video as well as stills, maybe primarily video, and Sony was the only game in town at that time. They may find the Panasonic tempting.
And with Sony delaying their update to the video-centric A7sii, this becomes more of a possibility.
There could also be some people who bought into Sony because again they were the only FF MILC on the market, have not liked the ergonomics or user experience, and now want to try something else.
There is no doubt that if you like the gadgetry of the Sony, you will love the gadgetry of the Panny.
I'm a Nikon user and I'm as likely to buy this as the Z6, and there seem to be other switchers making comments. Canon and Nikons initial mirrorless cameras haven't set the world alight.
These are words the kinds of fools who find themselves in photography use to try and sound more intelligent and knowledgeable, while trying to say that a camera has a bigger grip for their manky meat hooks.
Grip size =/= ergonomics
Sony ‘ergonomics’ are for the most part some of the best around. But grip size is not one of them.
mpb002: What most people forget is that ergonomic is very personal.I own a A6000 and love the ergonomics of it. The grip is just fine for my hands, the buttons and dials are at the right places (except the video button that is) , and the menu's? When you set up the fn menu to your liking there is not mutch need to dive into the menus at all.... So calling the ergonomics atrocious is just plain stupid. Many Sony users bought their cameras for the small sized body (something none of the other manufacturers have), for the high IQ (something all of the others have) and the great AF technology (none of the others have)
gfrensen, I have used Sony A-mount for a long time now, i have just brought an A6400 for my daughter. E-mount ergonomics are actually atrocious. Look at where the movie button on the 6400 is.
Small bodies are fine for a large portion of the population but unless Sony make a decent body for their system, I'll switch brands.
You are current that the decision is mostly personal but we all seem to have the same layout of fingers and eyes.
I own a A6000 and love the ergonomics. I've used 1Dx and 5D for many years and now I just find them too big. I wouldn't go back to something like this S1. For years we had much smaller slr cameras with smaller grips and it wasn't a problem.
Slatts-from-Oz: As I said the video button is at a stupid place. It prevents people from accidental hit it, but it is a stupid place... For the rest the ergonomics are fine for me... When you do not like the ergonomics, switch to an other brand, IQ is not a big difference, so switching is good. Telling that ergonomics are atrocious is just well your opinion at best. Look at the sales of the A6x00 cameras, better then all other mirrorless lines... Sony is doing very well, so why should they change their strategy? Personally I think they are doing a great job, making the cameras people actually are buying!
I don't and won't watch DPReview TV. It is a pity I have to read the comments to get a sense of what the video contains. Bring back the traditional review.
David - I’m sorry you had to read the comments ;-)
Kidding aside, these video reviews are not replacing our written reviews, though they typically come out first since since writing a detailed review takes a bit more time. We have full reviews for both the S1 and S1R in the works.
I'm with David610. I don't want to be entertained with a video. I want to read a review, which I can do far faster than watching a video at someone else's pace. And like David, I rather read the comments than waste my time on the video.
Vit, if a full written review is coming anyway, then watching a video with less information on the same subject is in essence a waste of time, is it not?
@mxx: you write " if a full written review is coming anyway, then watching a video with less information on the same subject is in essence a waste of time, is it not?"
Do you not see the advantage of video? It's more than just the conveyance of information. There is the personal touch; seeing the reviewers and their personalities. And yes, most people like to relate to other people. We are not robots.
There is the seeing the camera in use; seeing someone hold it, shoot it, hearing the shutter, actually seeing how fast it reacts, etc. That is useful information.
Do you ever watch a movie or TV show? Why not read the synopsis? You'll better pick up on the details of the plot and save time. That's your reasoning.
Video conveys information of another kind: human emotion, nuance, detail, etc.
Thanks Dale for taking the time to reply. I am glad the traditional written review will continue for those who can read. Thanks to all above who supported my view which wasn't in 8K @120 fps 4:4:4 600MBps. Should the comments also be in video?
Snowflake: meaning ... now has morphed into a general putdown for anyone that complains about any subject. Ipso facto calling someone a snowflake means you are one?
Good for Panasonic. I'm looking forward to the direct comparison tests against between the four rivals (a7III, Z6, R). I couldn't buy it it, as I always expected I couldn't, because I'm too used to PDAF for focusing on my sons playing, but I'm glad it exists for those to whom it appeals.
I remain intrigued that Panasonic thinks there is a market for these with Canon, Nikon, and Sony, who combined own something like 85% of the ILC market, but I'm glad they're in.
Having owned the S1 for two weeks I have to say I’ve been really impressed. I’m a previous canon and Sony shooter (both slt and e), yes the S1 is heavy and it does use cdaf, but it’s a serious joy to use, makes me smile every time. From my experience so far I’ve only missed a few shots having shot around 1,000 files, but you need to understand how the af works and customise it to your situation. Too be honest any issues with the cdaf are over exaggerated. It’s an excellent tool and if you’re not able to get good output from the system then you might need fundamental training as a photographer rather than expecting a point and shoot experience (maybe stick with the iPhone). I’d also recommend picking one up in a store and testing the camera for yourselves rather bashing a system most on here have never seen or touched. Is it the perfect camera, nope! But no camera is and artists have been taking visually stunning and iconic images for the last 100 years.
That's just bonkers. So you're saying that having eye-af that can hit the eye 90% of the time, almost anywhere on the frame, doesn't open possibilities that you couldn't get before?
Sure, you could get the same image if you try 100 times and got lucky once, but sometimes you don't have the opportunity or the time to do that.
Sometimes, if you can't get the photo with one camera, it just means that you have the wrong tool for the job...
I agree that the traditional use of AF-C (or servo in Canon terms), which consist of trying to keep AF point on moving subject yourself while activating AF-C by either half pressing shutter or separate AF-on button, is still the best way to get best hit rate even on micro 4/3 without using DFD compatible lenses like the brilliant Sigma DN ART 60mm F2.8 lens - a brilliant all around lens on micro 4/3 for portrait, sport... events.
Even without DFD, plain and fast CDAF system in AF-C can get a good hit rate using method described above. You just get to know you camera a bit - thus select a right sized AF box for given scenario and track the object yourself while firing when you have 'the moment' there.
And because how fast AF-S is on CDAF system, you can get away with AF-S in many of these situations, if the subject is not moving directly away or towards you.
Basically it is not as good as the best there are but is not half as bad nowadays. I think my GX80 can AF-C on eye too.
Dan, thanks for the comments as a person who actually owns and has used the camera. Many times the critics on these forums haven't used the camera or even held it for 2 seconds.
Most of these critics or clowns have never tried out the camera. They read some sort of questionable remark and think it’s the word of God. And, yes, I own the S1 and it is a terrific cameras. And, no, DFD is not the fly in the ointment. Sheesh!
So the tracking issue in the video is false? Are you saying he is not handling the camera right in the video? Are you just trying to justify your purchase?
@Vit - If you want the highest hit rate with the least effort and minimize mistakes, use the center AF point with Canon servo or Nikon AF-C or AF-S. From science, the more degrees of freedom you have, the higher the chance of making mistakes, because the more choices you have. I use center point with single shot or 3 FPS along with waiting and anticipating to get the point of peak action. I do not like looking at 3000 photos to find 20 best.
So what’s the final score? Gold star? Silver star? Etc. Panasonic is either stupid or has pride issues? Quit trying to reinvent the damn wheel & implement phase detection. $2500 for a DFD ONLY camera is asinine! Would someone order a baked potato 🥔 for $10 without the butter, cheese, or sour cream?
That would be a great argument. Except it is already well known that contrast provides the most ACCURATE focus. Not the speediest, the most accurate. Which is why others have implemented Phase to speed the process up, but they too have their own set of issues. You act as if the Hybrid systems are innately flawless. Sorry.....that hasn't happened yet. Better is in the application not the technology so much.
Here's a good video that explains the different types of AF systems by that Gerald Undone guy that someone mentioned above...I came across it through that reference!
Nice, but I decided to buy the Pentax K-1 because I do not need video. Same or better specs for still photography and a lot cheaper. And you can use every K-lens since WW-2. I got a deal with a free 100 mm macro lens. I don't believe it myself untill it arrives in a few days.
I have just purchased the S1 and was fortunate to get 2nd hand a Leica 24-90mm & 90-280mm and am I am NOT suffering from post-purchase cognitive dissonance. I have switched from Nikon after 15 years and I am a commercial photographer.
I am staggered by the numerous YouTube reviewer's moans, who are mostly Nikon/Sony/Canon fanboys, about the AF performance and their total lack of knowledge with the camera's menu. Even respectable sites, like DP Review, all fail to mention that the different AF modes (8) for both single & continuous AF also have AF sets (4) which work with each mode. The latter can be changed to suit individual situations &/or your photography style. Yes, it does require some effort, learning & fiddling. Spoiler alert the camera won't do everything for you (S1/R users are expected to be pro-photographers) and it never was intended to be a sports camera. A Nikon D5 still outperforms a Sony A9. Panasonic has numerous & excellent 2-minute learning videos for both cameras.
Are you saying the AF issue in the video can be solved by switching a setting? That would imply that the reviewer is either negligent or not knowledgeable about the camera. Or are you saying that it is "good enough" for you?
One point that comes out again and again in every single review: engineering is all about tradeoffs. Want PDAF? Well, you get some banding. Don't want the banding? Then you have CDAF, or in this case, what Panny calls DFD.
Want better weather sealing, heat dissipation, and grip? Then you get a bigger camera like this one. Want smaller camera like a Sony? Then you may have overheating problems, less ruggedness, heating problems, and it doesn't feel as good in the hands.
It's all tradeoffs people. The key is deciding which combo of tradeoffs is better for each one of us.
Hmm. In tens of thousands of photos I took with my old EM1, I never once saw banding. Then again, I did also own a Panasonic with DFD autofocus and the system was excellent. The whole debate seems pointless, based on that experience. I can't imagine newer versions of DFD would actually be worse!
Nevertheless, for those who find issues either way, it looks like we finally get choices in a larger format. Sounds good.
You'll have to consult someone like Jim Kasson on that one. All I know is that with other cameras using PDAF, some have commented on the banding that it produces.
Now what I also know is that this banding is usually not even going to be noticeable by most people most of the time. So to me it's a moot point.
But regardless, I still stand by my original thesis which is that all of engineering is tradeoffs. The brands we choose have made the choice of tradeoffs that we most agree with.
Ahahah oh man, you always find a way to bash Sony, no matter what... My Sony never overheats, it's rugged enough and feels good in my hand, just like my Canon. Quit this sheeto man...
@AlexLex: the Sony overheating issues on many of their cameras is well documented by many users online. When I rented the a9 from Lens Rentals there was even a disclosure on the site noting that the camera can overheat doing video work and I had to acknowledge that I understood that before renting.
BTW, I was very impressed by the a9. It's a unique camera so far with its stacked sensor that makes for some really great features, so it's not about bashing Sony. It's acknowledging that there are tradeoffs to any brand, and no one camera is perfect.
Since when was AF a tradeoff. Never had one bit of banding on Sony A7RIII or A9 in thousands of shots. DFD is just Panasonic being stubborn and sticking to a losing technology. It's like Canon trying to downplay or ignore the benefits of DR or Nikon denying FF was required right up until the point they released FF. I can guarantee the rusted on Panasonic fans will all go quiet when Panasonic comes to their senses and switches to PDAF. This the one area you don't tradeoff.
@Thoughts R US.. I tend to agree with U most of the time, BUT... in the case of "But they can't violate the laws of physics.", you seem to be mistaken. According to posters here and in several other threads, Sony seems to have found a way. Sony Make.Believe :P
Shouldn't see any banding due to the lack of phase detect arrays. However I did see in Barcelona the rainbow reflection pattern common on many cameras in bright direct to the sensor sunlight. Giving the an RGB pattern across areas of flare.
Chris didn't read that too well.
I shoot a lot of backlit stuff with the X-T3 and haven't had any phase detect banding show up. However, my fastest lens is an F2, and extremely wide aperture lenses tend to accentuate the issue.
So hands up. Who shakes their camera from side to side and ever notices rolling shutter? I’ve never noticed this on any camera I’ve used. Come on peeps. Learn how to use a camera for video properly.
Imager - Think about panning a shot of a speeding bicycle, motorcycle or car - all *very* common photographic subjects whose nice round wheels turn into ellipses due to rolling shutter. Or a golf club or hockey stick swinging. Almost any fast-moving subject will show ugly and weird distortion if rolling shutter problems exist.
Sony does make great sensors. Burt as Zed alludes to, often it's other companies that get the most out of those sensors.
And yes, the smaller size of the Sony bodies does offer some advantages, but it does have costs...consider the many Sony bodies with overheating problems.
You get 4,2,2, 4kp60 from a Sony A7 or A9 if you record externally, up to 244 MHz bandwidth. What Sony lacks is 10-bit recording, which is important for grading, including VLog gamma. You also increase the bandwidth to a point no SD card can keep up.
If you want it all, get a real video camera with surface controls for all the important things.
@ Zed Man - when one goes trough your history on DPR its obvious that the biggest troll are you. 95% is stupid anti Sony propaganda, how sad you must be if this is not a payed job, which I doubt.
"I feel sorry for those people whose Sonys overhear and then they get attacked by trolls on reddit and other forums." - That's right, the Sonys are listening.
“Ironically Sony appears to be the only company that can't get 4K 60p or 10 bit video out of their sensors. Maybe because of those cheap little bodies”
False. First up - Nikon don’t / can’t do 4K60. Second this Panasonic doesn’t use a Sony sensor. Third - Sony have 10/12/14/16bit out of their sensors, just not at price points internet dweebs like you can afford.
“Sony does make great sensors. Burt as Zed alludes to, often it's other companies that get the most out of those sensors.”
LOL the Sony trolls one upping each other.
Also false (as usual, total BS from this particular drongo - oh and please tell us again what your rhetoric professor once told you clown boy). Nikon (who use Sony sensors) are measurably worse than Sony’s cameras using those sensors. What you are referring to is when Nikon have used SIMILAR Sony sensors, but which have lacked things like PDAF and have as such given that SENSOR an IQ advantage, that Nikon got for free. Once Nikon uses the same sensor... That ‘advantage’ disappears. Funny that.
“Yes, it likely does. Read this: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/not-a-surprise-panasonic-s1-and-sony-a7iii-score-nearly-identical-results-at-dxo-likely-because-they-use-the-same-sony-sensor/“
You are basing your guess off their guess. This is how fake news is created and spread. Often out of the gullible and the lazy / misinformed being the ‘source’.
“And really, unless you are Canon, you almost have to use a Sony supplied sensor”
Wrong again. For such a self proclaimed expert on all things Sony and not, you seem to misunderstand that Panasonic have their own sensor business.
*only* scoring as well as the Sony while not having PDAF demonstrates the gap that still exists.
Sorry, you are wrong. Of course Panasonic will not publicly announce they use a Sony sensor, just like Nikon will not, Fuji will not, etc. Yet you accept that Nikon and those other brands use Sony sensors.
And it's not a guess: it's based on a close similarity of output curves for the sensors.
Panasonic uses Sony sensors in m4/3 cameras as well.
Now Panasonic may make it's own sensor for the S1r...we will wait and see.
BTW, why should we trust you over these other sources? You make a bold proclamation about Panasonic definitely not using Sony sensors...when you are certainly not more credible than DXO or any other source.
Okay, so the camera weighs the same as a D850, feels good but has autofocus that judders back and forth on a street sign as shown, can't track a person walking and most likely has a laggy evf. By what stretch of the imagination is it a professional camera?
Why don't you wait for the review that addresses those details?
Because several of your points are simply wrong - in stills (as opposed to video) the tracking is reportedly very good for regular motion like a person walking, and the EVF operates at 120 Hz, tying it for the least laggy viewfinder on the market.
It's enough to say that the autofocus isn't good for tracking fast and erratic subjects in motion. You don't need to invent hyperbolic reasons not to like the camera.
It is the worst camera if you focus on negatives like all cameras; it is the best camera if it has what you need. I can count 3 negatives in all cameras in the market and ask the same question as you do.
The demo has a nice example of focus pulling. That's not easy, single-handed.
More often than not, videographers prefer manual focus, which can be motorized and controlled remotely. For planned shots, it's easy to program focus end points in the motor control, or use a scribble strip.
ozturert, i agree with you but there are common requirement for most. a good AF seems to be one of them. Pana had a great opportunity to come in with a good AF but they choose CDAF and i think it's to do with Leica lens design. Leica has adapted to CDAF for their cameras and their lens for their camera are CDAF based. CDAF tracking is always a challenge and what Pana is doing with their DFD is running the calc of their algo at a higher speed to try achieving fast AF acquisition/lock. high speed calc means super fast processing. So they'll need a much more powerful processor compared to those PDAF based camera. They'll also need a more efficient heat dissipation design. what a waste of processor resources. that additional processor power could be used for something else.
Vignes, DFD is a very advanced version of CDAF. Actually it is so different that I cannot call it CDAF. The cameras know lenses' micro contrast and blur (bokeh?) characters. As the camera focuses, it takes 2 photos and compares them, then it knows where to drive the lens to. It is actually closer to PDAF then CDAF. It think this process needs a faster processor (or a dedicated one?) to be mlre efficient in AF-C. I used FZ300 and GX85 and they are not bad in AF-C. In fact FZ300 was the best compact camera with AF-C that I have used (Sony RX10 IV may be better). Again it depends on if you want AF-C. I mostly use AF-S. For serious video users I recommend MF anyway.
Here is what happens a lot in forums like this. People see/read a review that has a lot of good things to say about a camera, but has one point of criticism with reservations. In this case DFD AF.
Then others take this and run with it and all of a sudden it's become gospel to a whole lot of commenters who haven't used the camera that the AF must be horrible. Of course the reviewers never said such a thing, and keep in mind that reviewers by definition focus on minute details more than most. However, this becomes the running theme among some.
Geez I wonder where I’ve seen these ‘forum users’ before. Here’s an idea, replace ‘forum users’ with ‘Thoughts R Us’ and replace ‘DfD’ with any of the quibbles about Sony products, say ‘ergonomics’, ‘Mount’, ‘colors’, ‘lens selection’ etc
In reality the ‘ergonomics’ will be fine for most In reality the ‘mount’ will be fine for most In reality the ‘colors’ will be fine for most In reality the ‘lens selection’ will be fine for most
But of course this numpty will never admit that in his own paid trolling
The S1R is excusable for it's high resolution sensor with contrast based system but it can not be the same with S1 which is touching in the same territory with A7III and Z6 where AF (for A7III) and video (for Z6) could be challenging for Panasonic S1 to overcome when it comes to price-performance ratio. Had Panasonic used a phase detect system, it could give it some advantage.
lightright... yes, Pana should have gone for PDAF. Donzac, CAF is not only required for video. Stills requires it, to. ALso, there are many people whom are buying this camera are just buying it as enthusiast. they would want a good AF. if Pana just built this camera for professional, they'll probably won't sell a lot of this and this business venture wouldn't be viable. the non pro market size is much much larger than pro market. pro are the minority. So, the video pros should shut up if they happy with the crappy CAF. Otherwise Pana will get lazy and don't improve the CAF which is required by the masses.
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