Hours after the official launch of the Canon EOS R, Chris and Rishi sat down to chat about the camera and what we know about the system so far. They talk about where the camera falls short of expectations, some initial handling impressions and the promise of this new system.
It is important to remember the economics behind the decisions of camera companies.
It has seemed to me that for a while Canon in particular has not been releasing the best product they can in order to keep enhancements for the future and prevent customers' investments becoming superseded. This is particularly evident in regards to the video features of the cameras (think about the hacks available for previous 5d gens to get raw?). It is also evident in regards to not putting IBIS in lenses to prevent previous 'IS' upgraded versions of lenses no longer presenting value (e.g. the 70-200 lines).
Also, doesn't the timing of this release strike as odd? A few weeks after Nikon's release without significant pre-release hype-building? Canon have released this camera in response to Nikon releasing their mirrorless option. It wouldn't surprise me if they have been sitting on this product nearly finished for a while.
Just a personal opinion here, but it seems that Canon and Nikon mirrorless entries are mere stop gaps to slow their respective customer base trend to Sony. But it may backfire since both failed to over take Sony current releases in terms of feature set and value, while drawing attention to the benefits of a mirrorless system. Maybe in both cases they were trying not to sacrifice their DSLR counterpart markets, instead creating a niche market to test the mirrorless waters. This does not mean Sony can sit and wait for them to catch up, instead Sony has to do two things. First, continue to develop professional and consumer grade lenses, which should not be to hard since they have demonstrated are good start. Second is improve their camera user interfaces, both menu and physical layout. Maybe replacing the rear panel buttons and wheels with a large touch display that can mimic Canon and Nikon layouts/graphic user interfaces while allowing for end user customization.
df2 - I agree. From a purely technical point of view, Sony make some of the best FF cameras on the market, but they have a *huge* amount to learn about ergonomics. They just don't seem to understand the concept of making a camera comfortable and pleasurable to use. And yes, their menus leave a lot to be desired.
The Canon and Nikon FF mirrorless are merely an opening volley. They sell vast numbers of DSLRs and would be foolish to try and compete with their own models. But most of the Canon DSLRs are approaching the end of their product cycles (typically 3 years) and are due for replacement. It remains to be seen if the replacements will be DSLRs or mirrorless.
My feeling is that they'll bring out one final iteration of their DSLRs and at the same time develop their RF system, adding a budget body for novices, a general purpose "5R" for pros, and ultimately a "1R" for sports photographers.
I saw somewhere that the Canon will not be opening up RF mount to third parties. Is that true and what does it mean? Does it mean that Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina won't be able to make lenses for the Canon mirrorless system?
No it just means that they'll have to reverse engineer. Theoretically third party lenses in RF mount could start appearing in a few months, but the manufacturers will also be aware that their EF lenses will work with full functionality on R bodies, so they probably won't be in a hurry to rush out lenses in RF.
Thank you for your answer. It answers my question in part. But what would it mean if Canon were to open up the RF mount to third parties? Would that help anything? And what do Nikon and Sony do... do they open up their mounts to third parties?
pentalex - My understanding is that third party lenses for "closed mounts" from Canon and Nikon have to be reverse engineered. In other words Tamron etc are not given access to data about lens measurements or about how the electronics communicate. So they have to strip down OEM lenses and work it out for themelves.
Some of the lens pins/contacts are probably redundant but may be given functionality on future bodies, so presumably when a new body comes out Tamron etc have to work out the electronics again and issue firmware updates for their lenses.
With "open mounts" the OEM provides the necessary data under licence and this data is used by third party manufacturers to produce their products. They would also be informed by the OEM of any upgrades needed to make the lenses communicate properly with later bodies.
I don't know whether the Sony E mount is "open" or "closed".
Let me drop in once more a different observation about the both RF and Z mounts: I am surprised about the number of contacts. Modern achievements in connectors go into the opposite direction toward few contacts/wires, with high speed multiplexed signals. Think of hard-drive PATA-SATA evolution, or the modern USB3, USBC, Thunderbolt connectors.
If I were at the design team for new mount connectors, I would suggest strongly to use a commodity product USB encoder/decoder as the mean of communication. That would also simplify connecting of the lenses to computers for firmware updates, maintenance micro focus adjustments, you name it.
Having 10-12 pins in the mounts means that in each lens just that many super-precise gold plated contacts must be provided, each with its tolerance and wear and tear. Admittedly the Japanese camera makers have achieved amazing reliability in the literally billions of these pins and contacts being in regular use, but why not to go a new way now?
I suspect that 4 of the pins are for power as such a small contact point would incur too much loss. Also, multiplexing makes software more complex and requires more power and faster processors in the lens. Additionally, the mount adaptors would need more processing power to convert the protocols which would incur a lag. As it stands the adaptors probably don't have any electronics in them.
These spontaneous video's are really enjoyable and informative. Keep them coming!
One thing I was wondering. Sony's E mount diameter is with 46mm considerably shorter than the two competitors with 55mm and 54mm respectively. Do I get it correct that this means that it will be much easier for Canon and Nikon to produce distortion free glass but at a (slight) weight penalty?
Not a pro camera people, this is not a pro camera, this is a enthusiast camera to keep dslr shooters in the Canon system. Canon lenses have VR so they didn't bother with IBIS. Canon probably doesn't even want to sell it to people who are just going to use it to adapt all kinds of old lenses to it. Those people don't buy L-glass. Canon shooters might still be better of getting a Sony though. All depends on lens performance on the different cameras.
This camera is a missed opportunity by Canon. It should have been something that is very compelling and with features that bested the Sony A7III. By the time Canon comes out with an upgraded model, Sony will likely have the Sony A7IV that will further the gap between Sony snd Canon.
Canon is obviously too afraid of gutting the sales of their dslrs to turn out a competitive product. It's quite pathetic and parsimonious and very short sighted on their part. Seriously, who would buy one when Sony is so much superior?
Only one??? Just because other's have it? Mate, listen: Lens IS is more optimized/efficient & robust than a global IBIS. Try a Sony IBIS, mount a lens longer than 40mm and check how effective it is. Try going long till 85 and check again. Forget it when you go 150+ FL. And when lens have it, IBIS becomes redundant. Also, if you are serious about video, glidecams works better.
On this R, there is an increase pin connectors to speed up parallel signal transfer & Canon explains in their video that it'll enhance lens IS even more, which makes sense. Also, IBIS will wear out sensor calibration soon.
But check this: 1. 10 bit 4.2.2 external recorder (Super35 crop) 2. DPAF with -6 EV sensitivity 3. Fully functional tilty touchscreen. 4. Manual Focus Assist feature from C700 5. Customizable lens ring for silent off eye adjustment during recordings. 6. Fully functional OLED EVF 7. Silent operation Customizable touch bar for during recordings. 8. Super fast lenses 9. Reliable weather sealing
You don't have to work for Canon to point out the obvious. @Jack Jian you forget to mention at no.8 beside fast also the world's best selection of lenses that work flawlessly with this camera straight out of the box
Without being too presumptuous prior to a full test and field reports, I think that the speed of operations (e.g. dropping down to 3fps in some cases) is not a good sign. I feel reminded of the EOS-M with its snail-slow operations...
I think that this is a camera which many users will pick anyways. My personal impression is that Canon felt pressured to release whatever is working at the moment, in order to stop bleeding its user base, succumbing to hype of the mirror-less. Many of us, DSLR users, will not just now buy a new camera because we are happy with the functionality of what we have. Many of us will wait for the "next model". With the EOS-R and Z out, we simply have now confidence that our glass and the entire system will still work, and that counts. I commend Canon to the $100 adapter. Nikon should price theirs equally low.
@Jack Jian did you ever try a modern mirrorless camera that combines IBIS and in-lens-stabilization? It's not redundant, the combination is superior! 1 second or more handheld, and if you don't need that, every handheld video is obviously more stable, no swaying horizon, even when walking!
@achim, like I have mention...see the practical assessment; not theoretical paper specs:
I have written "Try a Sony IBIS, mount a lens longer than 40mm & check how effective it is. Try going long till 85 and check again. Forget it when you go 150+ FL. & when lens have it, IBIS becomes redundant. Also, if you are serious about video, glidecams works better..."
Test that out for yourself in the street, not on charts/doll...also, IBIS will wear out sensor calibration soon because it involves fast high frequency movement of the sensor and if that happens, your entire system is going down.
If the lens IS can do much better already, combining lens IS and IBIS becomes redundant. & when a proper video is shot, both IBIS and Lens IS is turned off anyway, except for that rare occasional handheld shots without IS lens. Weighing the overall "requirement and benefits" of IBIS against, lens based IS, the latter turns out better. Ask anybody who are serious in business, they'll tell you the same.
IBIS is of course a plus , no question about it, but it's not the holy grail. By saying that Sony is much superior by having IBIS is ridiculous , there are some many other aspects mentioned here that in fact makes the Canon the superior camera for a lot of users. I will add to Jack Jian's list also the C-Raw and the drop in filter adapter
M43 or APS-C has large room of the sensor to move within a given mount diameter, which can be fairly optimized. Not in case with FF, especially with Sony with it's APS-C mount size. Nikon may be able to optimize with that large mount room.
"They do seem like stop gap cameras. The bar is set by the best mirorless right now and some of these cameras fall quite short of that bar in many respects."
Boy that was a diplomatic way to say it. I think the key words here are "quite" and "many"
This was a great video and first impressions review. Limited time, limited sleep, limited preparation to say things carefully so as not to offend, limited proper nourishment, and limited time to edit = candid opinions.
MOAR DRUKNESS ACLOHOL DIRNK!!11!one No, seriously, I love your drunken features. I can deal with the extra rambling in exchange for all the humor - intentional or not :D
You guys mentioned the Coolpix 1, but i think you meant Nikon 1 right? Also, i think for the better weather sealing, ergonomics and better (and more "native") optics many people would consider the Canon or Nikon over the Sony. Looking at the design of the Sony against either the Canon or the Nikon makes it look very plasticky and who would want to live without a top LCD panel? Lots to like in all systems to be sure
1. If you have all the info in the viewfinder you don't miss the top screen so much 2. There are more native lenses for e-mount 3. Op-tech do rain shields that work very well
Send me your address and I'll mail you a cheque refunding your membership fee (joke).
In all seriousness, I think the guys did a great job packing as much information into this video as they did, and getting it online as soon as they did, at the end of an extremely long day. Having waded through most of it, this short video was about as informationally rich as any of our competitors' content, and more fun to watch. That's just my opinion, of course, but I think they did an excellent job on this, and their personalities (and expertise) come across well.
Is there anything specific that you feel ruined it for you?
Agree with Barney. This kind of off the cuff video giving us their first impressions as soon as they have it is far better than to wait for a week or two delving into all the nitty gritty. That can wait until the full review.
Everything they said makes sense. These are stop gap cameras to give existing Nikon & Canon users a mirrorless option, but not to replace their DSLRs. And to prevent them from jumping ship entirely to Sony.
Do you know how many camera events are going on at the same time these days and how much media coverage has to be done by a rather small dedicated team?
The last feeling I get is that dPreview is rushing anything. I see them squeezing out even more performance after a long, long day just because they had something to say that might be of interest to us. How many times exactly did you feel like dPreview rushed anything in the past? In the contrary, more often they are late to the game, because they value quality over feeding the early birds with junk food.
Did they just say "we're drunk" and "Sony still has more to offer" on the same breath? Sony should withdraw all the money they are paying henceforth! Caveat: Not just drunk, one guy has not had a meal for a day!
Nah, drunken people always tell the truth - therefore their conclusion. It's plain obvious that Sony are still on top, though, even for five-year-olds.
People, remember: Canon never will give you all and at once: this is a R mark i, you must dream about two card slots, in next version they will add second card slot, after they will add normal video and something small too and as for 5D IV when we will have R mark iv that cameras will be really useful. Its will be in 2028, about... But this RE cameras is better then Canon 5D classic and this is a really good news! Nikon Z series cameras also have 1 card slot... Trick is - this cameras are for amateurs! Professional cameras by Canon and Nikon must cost more then 5000, or 6000 USD.
its a marketing, based on the history of this company, also of other companies... Regarding Sony and Fuji is also true - then Nikon Z and Canon R will be nice cameras when they will be Canon R iii and Nikon Z7 iii, after 6-7 years... Anyway, i am not user of ML cameras, just use DSLR and will use them, IO had Sony A7ii but back to seller after 1 days of used. EV is not good for me...
I only use DSLR's. I never buy first generation of a new model. I let first time buyers work out the camera bugs for Canon and Nikon before I consider buying. The EOS-M50 with the 11-22mm looks like a good tryout model to carry in a small bag.
QUESTION! Absolutely nothing about EOS-M?? Like, EOS-M is totally incompatible? EF and EF-S were an unusually annoying pair to begin with (say compared to Nikon FX and DX or Sony E and EF) but the R and M mount are like, straight up nothing to do with each other?
I mean they bring out a new M lens, just seems weird they aren't trying to have the "upgrade path" from APS-C thing anymore.
The EOS-M series is just a lower grade R series. This is typical Canon market segmentation. The R series is going to sell a lot of less expensive EF lenses w/adapter for Canon. I think Canon knows exactly what they are doing.
Jack Jian, I got a problem with that when the 4K crop on their FF body is smaller than APS-C anyway and nobody thought "wow, maybe that'd be more useful if they could just mount an APS-C lens up to begin with".
What is so frustrating about the R and the Z cameras is that they had a perfect model to copy. All the project managers had to do is set a Sony a73 down on the table and say “Gentlemen, please create a camera that can do everything this camera can do but make it work seamlessly with our lenses and have our ergonomics.” Everybody knows the A73 was improved dramatically over three iterations until they nailed it. Was Canon under a rock when Sony got torn apart over poor battery life and only one memory card? There is no excuse for making the same mistakes Sony did. Sony was blazing a new path that Canon and Nikon just had to follow.
Added to their lack of follow through on features is the damning fact that both companies have cameras with the same tech as the Sony. They have dual card cameras. They have bigger batteries. They have better autofocus. They didn’t have to “invent” a single thing.
This should have been an easy slam dunk. What were they thinking?
It takes rather longer than 9 months to come out with a new camera. Thom Hogan pointed out that at least for Nikon, the a7RII (three years ago) really made everyone sit up and take notice, even CaNikon, so it makes sense that rather than trying to set a new standard (which would be atypical for Canon) they aimed for the target of the time, the a7II.
TechDev, No way it's gonna happen! Did you watch the first ironman movie? It would be as ridiculous as Obadiah Stane telling his engineers to build the arc reactor. LOL
FuhTeng: Even if development cycles take 3 years (which is reasonable), all C&N needed to do was to pay heed to the main criticisms being levied against gen-2 Sony bodies, and make something better than that. Instead, we got something very similar to the early EOS M and Nikon 1 offerings - gear aimed at some mythical "upgrader" that a couple of geezers in Japan swear that exists in the swamps of Louisiana :D
raztec - Have Canon really got that many DSLRs stockpiled that they need to clear? I suspect that cameras are produced in batches appropriate to current demand (which is now low for 5D4, 6Dii and 5DS).
Canon should have done the same as Nkon, i.e. offered 2 cameras at launch - one (R) as a 6Dii replacement and the other as a high res alternative to the Sony a7Riii.
A nice camera but as a wedding photographer who shoots a 1DX and 5DMKIV it does not make me think about getting one. I would be more tempted by the Sony A7III. Sorry canon.
IBIS wouldn't be a deal breaker as Canon OIS is extremely efficient and tailored to individual lenses. Dual slot is a deal breaker, I wouldn't buy a camera with a single slot. Silent shutter would be hugely valuable for wildlife, wedding, theatre and many other genres. 3fp in C-AF is just pathetic and useless - anyone shooting action really nedds at least double that burst speed with C-AF.
It would be great if DPR could employ a pro that is able to dig deep and assess the technical capabilities of these new cameras. For example, the EOS R has a 1.8x crop in 4K. Yet this “minor” compromise is not mentioned once.
@photo...practically, are there any downsides to a crop close to S35 format? If you find some, could you list down some, those which hampers while creating a beautiful Vlog/Commercial or [documentaries or budget cinema]. I am curious of the shortcomings you find personally.
Jack Jian: I'm not Photoworks, but there's *plenty*. For starters, image quality in low light suffers, because of the reduced capture surface (might as well shoot a Panasonic GH5 then, since it's still miles above the Canon in specs and actual use). Lenses need to be adapted for wide angle shots. That beautiful 11-24mm f/4 L that costs an arm and leg isn't so great when cropped 1.8x times, and often there isn't a good alternative for an EF lens on crop. DoF control is made more complicated - diffraction appears much earlier on smaller surface areas, and the crop means that blurry wide-angle shots are rendered impossible in some cases. Also, and this isn't completely related, the rolling shutter on Canon sensors is *horrible*.
@Kharan,.. Dear friend: 1. a. Cropping from FF is not equal to physically crop sensor. b) Cropping a FF sensor does not decrease physical pixel pitch nor shrink microlens on the sensor. This case does not affect IQ in low light, like the physically cropped APSC or M43.
2. When you make a video, any kind of video, you do not shoot at 11mm or 16mm the entire time. Go watch movie and TV or youtube. There can be some 2-3 second B-roll here and there thrown in with UWA lens. But you can always bring in rented device for the same purpose. Don't believe me? Show me a TV show or Movie or any Commercial or Vlog video. Also, going by your words, the big guns like Red, Arri etc are also lacking UWA lens for productions with their 1.6 crop S35 sensor.
3. on DOF? Just like point 2., go watch TV to find out if ultra thin DoF are used in real video production. Also, in Crop, you don't need to stop down like in FF to get deeper DOF and you are not shooting on cheapo Crop lenses too.
So, your argument on Diffraction and DoF is also null and void in practical field work.
4. Regarding the fast action Rolling Shutter effect, yes, it has poor "rolling shutter" so do the competitors in the context of producing video which contains content with fast vertical/horizontal straight line subject movements.
You'll anyway shoot such scene with proper video camera anyway, if you are serious about it!
Also, using S35 crops avoids the corner defects of lenses, which is a time consuming work, if not impossible to correct, in Post.
(I doubt you don't even know what you are talking about! Also, I doubt you have even touched GH5, 5DIV or 1Dx II in your life, or ever produced decent videos! Sorry, not meaning to be rude, but just an inference from your explanations.)
Do you have any more doubts, pertaining to real world practice and requirements out in the field? Feel free to ask, I'll answer.
Jack Jian:
1) Yes it does. There is No difference at all between using a 1.7x crop of a sensor vs using a sensor that is a 1.7x crop, relative to your starting sensor size.
If you compare at a common output size (rather than assuming that lower pixel-count cameras must be viewed smaller), pixel pitch makes little difference to image quality. If you use an APS-C region of a sensor, you get remarkably APS-C-like results.
3) But yes, if you shoot for a particular depth-of-field, the effect of diffraction will be the same irrespective of the format you shoot on.
Thank you for the Great video Guys! Canon has the best name (Canon R) that will go very well with the Type R racers out there. That being said those canon R lenses look quite similar to Samyang AF FE lenses.
Will be interesting to see whether adapted ultra wide angle lenses are viable with this setup - both Metabones and Sigma adaptors on Sony's generated reports of extremely soft corners, likely due to light reflecting inside the adaptor itself. If this is the case, it makes the 'just throw an adaptor on to unlock the Canon catalogue' argument slightly less fantastic.
Don't even think of comparing Canon adapter performance and Sony third party adapters (I don't understand why Sony still haven't build adaptor). It's like comparing Leica and A7. It's a crime! :D
BTW, it behaves exactly the same as on DSLR. You can watch CanonUSA YouTube channels, there are lots of video shot with adapted long lens as well as the UWA on R.
It has nothing to do with the adapter, and everything to do with microlenses on top of the sensor. It took Sony at least a generation to improve that aspect (and even now it's debatable); Canon, despite their 4 generations of EOS M cameras, have never lifted a finger to correct it. I don't expect their latest disappointment to be any better.
If it's microlenses that's one thing, and hopefully Canon have optimised the system for it. If it's a pure physics issue adapting wide angles to mirrorless systems, where a bit of internal reflected light softens corners, then it's still an open question.
Jack Jian Never doubted the AF and general performance, more a question of whether this is a physics issue introduced by adapting to mirrorless in general.
Some of the criticism is quite simply hysterical and just for the sake of criticism. What do you expect? it's the first of a kind for a particular brand and can't be expected be perfect or a specific camera. it's just a kind of all rounder but not yet really. Remember how sony FF mirrorless evolved. Neither Canon nor Nikon or any other brand can not claim to have produced the perfect FF mirrorless at the first try and they, wisely, didn't try.
I would expect a camera that is marketed as full frame to shoot full frame 4k video. Not to shoot cropped 4K video using the same sensor real estate as m4/3rds.
Super 35 format is the go to format for all professional systems to get rid of the corner aberrations and defects of a FF lens, while keeping the cost affordable + 1:1 readout rather than sampling or line skipping, which is great on big screens.
Not as easy as it seems. 4K @30 required a lot of bus speed, memory, and processing power on the board. Apparently both Canikon not able to achieve this. Likely they do not want to release a camera that overheats faster than Sony. Always wonder why Sony do the 6k downsample instead of just 4k native resolution without overheats issue.
Why so? They just describe their first impressions. Great handling, viewfinder, configuration, new ways to operate, fast, works like a charm with EF lenses and so on. What makes you think they have to twist for it? Seems like there is a lot to genuinely like about the camera. It just is no 5D replacement but rather a 6D upgrade. Different target group. And of course there are some „would have been nice“.
Well , if somebody pays your trip , you are automatically less inclined to criticise, but DPR crew are pros and I am sure it will come later with more detail review.
Gimmicky ergonomics (including fake useless on/off switch/dial) will be fail in real life IMHO.
"f somebody pays your trip , you are automatically less inclined to criticise"
Untrue - at least for us. Fortunately we have earned enough respect to be pretty frank with manufacturers, regardless of who paid for dinner, and still get invited back. The fact that those conversations aren't always on the record doesn't mean that they don't happen.
Well, it's not exactly "untrue" then, because we don't get to see that part. I can perfectly understand why you would want to keep your harsher comments private, but in that case it's a matter of decency to not flaunt the "respect" that manufacturers have for your input, because then it looks all the more damning.
IDK. I think you have to be EXTREMELY entitled to feel that any camera made today is less than good. Therefore, it really comes down to discussing which features are there/not there, and whether it matter to the intended audience.
"Untrue - at least for us. Fortunately we have earned enough respect to be pretty frank with manufacturers, regardless of who paid for dinner, and still get invited back. The fact that those conversations aren't always on the record doesn't mean that they don't happen."
Then you DPR professionals are fooling themselves, because ethical rules in the journalism is that the journalist is not even allowed to accept any special treatment, any paid gift, not even a cup of coffee, little to any paid trips or special events.
Professional and ethical journalists and reviewers would not accept anything that is paid or gifted. As all such will affect to reviews.
"the journalist is not even allowed to accept any special treatment, any paid gift, not even a cup of coffee, little to any paid trips or special events."
We write reviews of cameras, we're not reporting on Watergate here, although I am flattered by the comparison.
Greetings DPR Stuff, what is the purpose of this fake left "dial"? It does serve only as a on/off switch...its a joke, i've never seen such "fake dial" from Canon for real....they easily could have made this as a real dial - at least, one +/- 5 EV dial....
And this 3rd Ring, the new EOS RF lenses do have - it could being used also as aperture ring, like onto some XF Fujifilm lenses, for instance, the XF 18-55/2.8-4, or 55-200/3.5-4.8 XF, which don't have aperture markings also, i'd guess?
And - nothing bad meant, like others mentioned before, this video isn't by any means your usual DPR YT quality standart....it looks more like a Kay W. Clip, from old DigitalRev Times....
Rings: Multi functional configurable rings - If you set it for TV/AV or whatever, it's shown in the EVF or on the top back/LCD, which is smarter than printing on lens.
Aperture ring is not equal to Multi functional configurable rings.
I started to watch this video but stopped after a couple of minutes. Being a little drunk may be OK, but not if it impedes your ability to do the job and this time I found the yelling and cussing and exaggerated body movement not fun at all. Frankly unprofessional and not likely to get you many followers. Certainly not mine. I'm unsubscribing the DPR videos with Chris and Jordan! Grow up guys or maybe consider whether this is the business you should be in. I am disappointed that Rishi agrees to do a video in these conditions. Not his normal style. I am not happy to write this. I open DPR the first thing every morning and check it several times a day, but with this kind of performance, I'll quickly find other sites.
Yes! How dare they! After all the money I pay for these rev... oh wait! this is FREE effing CONTENT! And they are working RIGHT after the event to deliver it the soonest possible. AND they warned it was going to be a half assed job...
Man, some people are spoiled and feel entitled to just about ANYTHING...
So far it was about the first video I saw which went beyond specs. I understand that the quality of the video is adjusted to the situation: a hurry to transport the information after a long day of work. Thank you for that.
I don't usually watch video articles, but now I feel like watching this one just to support the DPR video folks having permission to be occasionally mere humans.
from the canon website was able to obtain press photos of the 5d mk4 with 24-105 and r with 24-105 then scale using the hotshoe as a reference there is surprisingly little difference in length between the two cameras
The touchscreen is laggy...?!?!...LAGGY...?!...Oh, Rishi it so shows you don't use an M camera...tsk, tsk, tsk...
So that users here are not misinformed, let me put the record straight.
Canon touchscreens are extremely responsive and precise, making them one of the best, if not THE best in the industry.
Being able to partially map the touchscreen for AF point selection and then swiftly and precisely choose the required AF point with my left thumb (...yes, precision with a thumb... that's how good Canon's screens are...) is my single most valued atribute on the M5, operationally miles away from the imprecise and difficult to operate joysticks on my current (5DMKIV) and previous DSLRs.
My only concern was that the solution wouldn't be migrated to the R line and, now, I can be at ease about it.
I was not sure if Rishi referred to the Nikon when talking about a laggy touch interface. The Canon ones were pretty quick and responsive recently. Hope they did not mess up on the R?
Since I have a production camera in my hands and have just checked, I'm going to reinforce what Rishi said.
The system is well designed, as you describe, but it's not terribly quick. I'm using relative mode and particularly with a small autofocus point, found I couldn't always get the point to move in time to capture the moment I wanted.
What you're describing does not mirror my experience with the M5.
There's the possibility that it was implemented differently on the R.
Since there's a strong probability that, me too, will handle an EOS R in the very near future, I will try to ascertain if that's the case or if there's something you're missing.
I use Absolute positioning and I limit it to the upper right corner of the screen, for the fastest operation. Still the update rate when moving the AF point is far too slow, it's very choppy. So, yes, that's laggy.
In Playback mode, swiping between images: laggy. It's unfortunate, but that's the plain truth. Fine in an M-series class product, not fine for this sort of camera.
DPR crew, please test DPAF vs on-sensor hybrid AF in Sony and Nikon Z in AF-C tracking on fast moving subject. We all know DPAF is very good in video AF (that actually seems exceeded by Z7) and AF-S, but how about AF-C tracking? Many Canon owners actually believe DPAF is the best AF system that seems lots of hype in DPAF.
Also I remember Rishi once said DPAF impaired DR a bit, please elaborate, and if any side effect of handling double amount of pixels in burst rate and buffer depth? Thanks in advance.
Rishi, It is a pity we can't do a shoot-out with you using a camera of choice, with an AF point selection operation mode of choice and me using AF point selection on a mapped Canon touchscreen, with a 3rd party calling the point to focus at the last moment, so we could compare single shot focus point selection speed and accuracy.
Still, as I said, me too, I have some probability of handling an EOS R in the next coming days and, if I do, I will report back with my impressions.
PWPhotography: So far as we can tell, the left hand half of the pixel produces a 14-bit value, the right hand side produces a 14-bit value. These are then added together and saved as a 14-bit value (The Dual Pixel Raw saves data for L and L+R, rather than saving full left and right data).
This means that if both half pixels are within 1EV of clipping, the L+R value ends up higher than there's room to retain, so it's recorded as clipped. This appears to throw away 1EV of highlight data, based on what we've seen.
PhotoKhan: The touchscreen on a new, untested model is different... DIFFERENT from your biased expectations!? Oh my, PhotoKhan, how poorly it reflects on you to chastise honest reviewers when you don't have a single iota of experience with the EOS R. Let me put the record straight: you have no idea of how this touchscreen works. OTOH, the DPR staff have used almost every camera under the sun today, *including* the EOS R. But you have the gall to imply that they're nincompoops who can't do their jobs!?
Richard has the basic idea but the problem is a bit more fundamental: the ADCs appear to be tuned such that a max signal from only one of the two photodiodes in a pixel maxes out the ADC (generates a maximum 14-bit value).
The two photodiodes are actually binned during readout, so there aren't two separate 14-bit values that are added (that would require twice the readout time: reading twice the number of pixels!).
Meaning that the ADC maxes out at half of the full well capacity of a pixel.
Yeah, it seems that stupid. I have a guess as to why: in Dual Pixel Raw you actually really the binned value as well as one of the individual photodiodes. The latter benefits from the properly matched FWC to max ADC signal because it helps it overcome read noise (which is higher on Canon sensors than Sony sensors). Incidentally this extra read phase to get the individual photodiode signal is why Dual Pixel Raw has a far slower burst rate.
So to leave 1 EV on the table is, frankly, odd if not unfathomable unless I'm missing something else.
Furthermore split photodiodes means you need more deep trench isolation in between photodiodes within one pixel, which sacrifices fill factor and full well capacity. Hence why DPAF sensors don't have the DR *or" the high ISO performance of other modern sensors.
I think I'm the only photographer in the entire world that gets really pissy because mirrorless cameras will only use built-in LEDs for flash focus-assist in low-light situations like night clubs or wedding receptions instead of the traditional unobtrusive red grid. How does this new Canon R work with flash focus assist? I see a built-in LED so I'm getting all pissy again.
I love that it focuses with wide-open aperture! Whoo-hoo!
It's one of the things we planned to test but ran out of time.
And you're not the only person who gets wound up by it: it's a constant source of frustration for Rishi, too.
The on-camera light is red on the EOS R (since Dual Pixel AF means all its pixels, including red-sensitive ones, are contributing to AF), so there's some hope.
At least I know now there are double the number of photographers in the entire world who get wound up over LED flash focus assist on mirrorless cameras.
In anycase the issue with the focus assist light being blinding when used in dark for people subject can be lessend by using darkening stickers typically used to darken status lights on electronics. I use it on my micro 4/3 cams and they can still focus well with the darkened assist light which is not blinding anymore.
In the video it was lauded that focusing is done wide open. I get this from a max light point of view. However, I believe it is also true that for many lenses, the focal point varies depending on the aperture setting. So if the lens is focused wide open and the picture taken stopped down, you would not have optimal focus. Therefore, aren't there times when you would be better off focusing at the aperture you would be shooting at?....is there a way to make this camera operate that way?
Two ways to addressing this. Either you construct lenses with no focal shift or you have the camera recognize the mounted lens and have it corrected. With the new fast lens interface the lens itself could contain that correction data and send it to the body or apply it to the AF inside the lens.
That's what we've always assumed to be the reason why everybody doesn't just focus wide-open. There's a question over whether it's possible to compensate for any focus shift, perhaps by storing correction factors based on shooting F-number and measured distance (it's exactly the sort of thing camera companies tend not to talk about).
That said, some brands seem to get it to work, so...
My A7R3 stops down when focusing. In theory this should make it more accurate as it compensates for focus shift at narrower apertures, but in practice I've found that the AF can be a little bit off when shooting landscapes at f8 for example. I think the problem is that the AF system has difficulty calculating where the sharpest plane of focus lies due to the deep DoF of the lens when stopped down.
They say focus-shift at different apertures is not problematic for roughly f/2 lenses or slower (see article on focus-shift at Photography Life) . I wish someone would explain the reasons behind some of these design decisions so we can all understand the trade-offs involved - like "Yeah, we could do that but our lenses would cost more/get bigger than we want/not be as sharp/etc."
Seems to make sense. Any method is a compromise unless wide open with "secret" hidden data to compensate for focus shift is used... I'm guessing that there is no secret hidden data and it is assumed the focus shift is considered negligible and/or no better or worse than dealing with less light and a deeper depth of field.
Canon doesn't make stopped down focus shift sort of lens. It's a defect if you find that to happen on Canon, happens especially on Sigma lens. Send it to Canon, they'll correct it without charges if within warranty.
Sorry I have to respond (one! post) What a hate against Canon here, unbelievable and also undeserved. People feel better with their Sony gear that way I guess... This is my take (so far), only the good points, here we go:
EOS R: Great mount, Great class leading (fast) lenses, Very good sensor (rather have 30MP AA than 24MP non_AA), Great color (yes, important to me), Great EF support, for normal operation: (Eye) AF 5000 points and fastest in de industry!, Great EVF, Great Focus peaking, Great video quality , 4K FF with EF-S lenses!, Great body design and (probably) very good ergonomics.
A7xxx: Great Sensor (in a cramped mount!)
What if Canon stuck a FF sensor in there EF-M mount... Sony did in an even smaller mount, why this is accepted and not severely critized???, the Sony system is a lightweight system in my view
Cramped mount. And you just hated yourself since that is a postulate with no proofs especially since many Sony lenses work just fine. Have a nice day 👍🏻
@A_Zandit: Firstly, if you like the Canon, you should absolutely buy it. You'll probably love it. But your analysis of specs is skewed at best.
Yes, the Canon mount is wider, and they've come out with some nice wide lenses to suit it. That's really it's best feature. Unfortunately they're price at $2k-$3k USD, which isn't great for most. That said, Sony has it's share of F1.4 lenses (albeit no 50mm F1.2 or 28-70 F/2).
For the body itself, Sony provides signficant advantages: IBIS, Eye-AF that actually tracks (Canon Eye-AF only works in single shot mode), a faster burst rate with full AF, Video with no crop. Also dual card slot, longer battery life. What it lacks is Canon's ergonomics, an articulating screen and weather sealing.
The BSi sensor also has some of the highest dynamic range on the market. We'll see where Canon compares with this, but I'd rather have the dynamic range than the extra resolution.
Canon and Nikon deliver less than Sony for a higher price. Z and R should be fine if they sell cheaper than Sony A7. I don’t see many non-professionals pay 4 or 5 grand for a heavy camera with one lens.
I do not consider the R to deliver less than an A7III. That may be a question of priorities. For example I love my great EVF and ergonomics and touch integration. To me Sony is lacking severely in those aspects. I have no use for sport applications or a second card slot. My lenses do have IS. I do not do video. I have a lot of EF lenses which will run much better on the Canon. To me personally a Sony A7III provides less of what is important to me.
I had not much fun using the Sony A7rII and at my age that is becoming a very relevant factor compared to specs on paper. Possibly I will enjoy the R or Z better.
Had they had IBIS the R would have been a certainty for me with my Canon lenses. Without it, I'm thinking Nikon Z7 for the ergonomics, evf, IBIS and resolution. We'll see after the reviews and holding them in my hands.
Another factor will be to see how they play with an M adaptor and my Leica M lenses.
I am a curious observer. Great to see so many new cameras and lenses being announced lately, but I see one thing - I am not ready for the mirrorless hype just yet. In fact, I am eagerly waiting for the 5Ds MKII. There is nithing transformational about mirrorless. Some feauters here and there. Maybe 5-10 years down the road. It looks like I am all set for another 5-7 years. Next year I am likely getting 5Ds MKII and it will be with me for a minimum 5-6 years. I thought that mirrorless is goong to be a much smaller and lighter package, but when you add the lenses, it is pretty much all the same.
I'm an Oly/Fuji user intersted in getting a FF mirrorless in the future. My takeaway so far after the Nikon and Canon announcements is that the ball is in Sony's court. Sony just needs to improve a few key areas (i.e. build quality, ergonomics, fully articulating screen etc.). But, in terms of pure sales, I expect Canon to dominate as usual, simply because there is a such a HUGE Canon user base.
There's nothing wrong with Sony build quality. It was good with the A7ii and is even better now. The lens mount is attached directly to a metal chassis, with six screws instead of four. I rolled over four times with my A7Rii and once with my A7Riii since getting it in May.
I don't need or want a fully articulating screen. I use an iPhone and PlayMemoriesMobile for group selfies and remote control. The tilting screen is for ground level work.
I cannot get my medium sized fingers comfortably between a Sony body and the (larger) mounted lenses. Even worse on APS-C. I could not make any use of Sony cameras even if they were for free. Hope it‘s better with C or N.
I like to take pictures of stars as well. All stars there are I mean. ;)
Since I prefer the tilty screen too I will try the Nikons despite my Canon lenses. Using only few lenses makes switching systems easy for me.
Thanks for the video and the comments. I accept the conclusion that the Z(ed) and R are stopgaps aimed at preventing further defections to Sony, and that they're less likely to entice defectors to return.
Still, there are some features Sony will need to look at, like focusing wide open, the higher-quality magnification in the EVF (for macro and manual lens focus) and the more functional touchscreens. And Metabones could take a lesson re the adapter with the filter slot. I'm not as excited about the 5000+ focus points in the R - there must be a point of diminishing returns beyond 600 or maybe 1000 points.
Both Canon and Nikon made a mistake in using batteries that don't provide more shots. Sony made the same error with the first two FF alpha iterations. I'll bet both future Z and R cameras address this shortcoming.
Nice to see some competition and some additional functionality, even both competitors are still playing catch-up in some important ways.
So many payed 2k for a 6D II and that one did not even have a proper sensor. You bet it will sell. Then Sony lowers prices with Canon to follow and so on. Looking forward to buy one some months down the price battles. Thank‘s Sony!
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