We review Nikon's ProRes Raw video upgrade for the Z6 and Z7 mirrorless cameras. In the process, Chris and Jordan explain the benefits of a Raw video workflow and why there's no such thing as a free lunch.
I don't see a huge difference in sharpness or noise, but look how much better the RAW footage picks up the colored lettering on the lenses at 3:03 on the video. It's night an day! Also I'm very impressed with the dynamic range. He's sitting in front of a window on a sunny day. That's amazing. That window would normally be blown out.
thank you for the review. I’ve been shooting this setup myself and found that there does tend to be a bit more moire when shooting in raw. Have you guys, DPReview, tested ProRes raw on any other devices to see if this is an issue? I have been looking into this and have seen similar complaints of moire in ProRes raw on other devices. In a forum That I found discussing why Alister Chapman shoots in PRR with the FS5, the comments begin to discuss Moire and how one person had some issues with it. Alister states: "It is possibly because Apple don’t have these same anti-moire strategies that you are maybe seeing more moire than with the XAVC recordings, but I would suspect it would still be present but at a reduced level in the XAVC too. I’m not seeing lot’s of reports of moire in the ProRes Raw, but it does get mentioned every now and again.“ Has anyone done these types of tests with other cameras?Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Hey DPReview, you left out that this RAW upgrade is *free* if you bought the camera as part of the Nikon Z6 Filmmaker's Kit. In that case, you only pay the shipping cost.
watched this on an LG 65" OLED C9PUA, I can see the p.q. potential with the nikon raw format, despite it being crippled by excessive noise, line skipping, youtube re-compression, etc.
these complaints about the p.q. fail to realize that the lighting is harsh and the direction was wrong because it's a test, not how they would shoot it in the real world.
beyond all that, you don't need raw when the lighting is right, as proven by decades of broadcast video production and presentation, that never used raw.
Most will agree, 10 bit 4:2:2 with a high bit rate (like 400MBps) will usually do. What you don't want is 8 bit 4:2:0 with a super low bit rate of 100Mbps or less (especially with an older codec). Colors break up while editing and you end up with bad artifacts when there is movement. This is why most agree the S1H, GH5, GH5S, and X-T3 are the best cameras for video, followed closely by the Nikon.
OT: I’m curious. Was the lighting and expression on Jordan’s face - his left side light with a highlighted eye, while his right is in complete shadow- and the somewhat-maniacal look - deliberate?
Also wondered about framing a week or so ago where Chris had a tree growing out of his head and a sign at the far left of the frame.
problem is that if you're not using Edius, there is currently no workflow for ProRes RAW on PC. Even though Adobe promised they'll support it in PremierePro, there is no update nor responses from Adobe Support on this topic. So yes, you can spend all the money for Nikon filmmaker's kit, upgrade everything, but unless you're on Mac or throw away your PremierePro and buy Edius (depending on where you live, it can be more than 500EUR), you can't do anything with it.
raw formats in general are not that practical, it reminds me of waiting for h.265 support in editing software... Samsung was too far ahead of the curve with h.265, it just couldn't be used anywhere.
Today though H.265 is almost a must have if you are using internal cards. Also, the benefit of RAW is there is little decoding and it actually can make editing faster.
I did a lot of work with the original BMPCC which is a wonderful camera. It had a looong list of problems though. Didn’t keep people from loving it or making great work with it. Still one of the best 1080p images around.
The Z6 is far more mature and usable. External screen is pretty much a must in my book if I’m working on a project serious enough to warrant raw.
For people interested in serious full frame video the Z6 is right now the best there is.
Is the ProRes Raw video available at APS-C video mode?
In APS-C video mode sensor is read without line skipping. So there is a chance, that if Raw Video is available at APS-C mode, it will not be showing line skipping defects too.
Yes, yes, yes. This review was incomplete, as usual because of rush to get a review out. You can set the HDMI output to 4K DX. And, one would think that would eliminate the line skipping. But we will never know from this review or reviewer, because of course these guys do not actually own the camera, they just get it to review and give it back and move on to the next. So, if they overlook something, it is never corrected. Yes, this is a challenge to them.
ProRes Raw is available in DX mode, however you need to select it in a seperate HDMI menu. Unfortunately, as we had only very limited time with a raw-capable Z6, we were unable to compare the DX to FX capture.
"My feedback for the future is very clear – if you are going to do a high bandwidth, high resolution RAW feed, don’t do it over HDMI when USB C exists. In fact, if you are going to do RAW at all, make internal recording the priority and externally optional – especially, if you already have an XQD slot on the camera (albeit only one). Nikon can be really incredibly stupid at times." from AR.
"hard to believe that people asked Nikon to skip implementing internal RAW. if they could technically and legally do it, they would have done it … I’m serious about video and will prefer working without an external recorder on ANY given day! Did you see any BMPCC user using an external recorder? I did not. I guess the internal compressed RAW is good enough... The only advantage Nikon might have then, is the price of the camera itself which is lower than the Panasonic S1H." by JB
The BMPCC is, eponymously, a compact camera, which lends itself to unencumbered use other than possibly on a tripod or gimbal. As attractive as internal recording may seem, the quality is far below that which you can get with an external recorder. For example, 1080p60 is recorded internally at 18-50 Mb/s, but 290 Mb/s externally on a Ninja V, both using ProRes422. I don't know where that extra bandwidth is going, but once gone, it's gone. Secondly, you shooting time is severely limited. Shooting 6K BMD RAW will fill a 256 GB card in about 4 minutes. On a production set, you would need a trailer full of consecutive SSD recorders, connected to the camera by 12G SDI.
Give me 7 hours of ProRes422, 1080p60, 4,2,2 10-bit on a 1 TB SSD any day, or 3 hours of 2160p30.
And Canon are still wondering why their sales are slipping behind ... Wake up Canon ! You used to lead the show in DSLR video, and this Raw video feature was handed to you on a silver platter when Magic Lantern developed it eight years ago. Wake up !!!!!!
I used to be Nikon ... But when they officially announced that they had no plans to ever release a full frame DSLR (i was using D2X) ... i switched to Canon 5D. Now i'm committed to Canon unless i chamnge my entire system. More fool Nikon ... but i do wish Canon would make more effort.
Canon has a line of cinematic video cameras for those who need cinematic quality. Sony has similar products, full frame with global shutters, as does BMD. Nikon has ... the Zed cameras.
This is some of the nicest looking footage I have seen out of a stills cameras. What other stills cameras could produce this quality in these conditions? Maybe a Panny or 1dx3? Dunno.
Yes and I just realized that they used an old manual focus lenses! I would have loved to have seen Z lenses on this test... I bet the image would be even better had they used a Z6 with the proper Z 50 1.8S, Z 35 1.8S, or even the Z 24-70 2.8S. I am curious why they went this route when it is pretty obvious that the new lenses would render even better and make the video even sharper? Yes i understand the potential for false color, but none of the footage that they shot should have produced false color, so what gives.
Good question. That was a very difficult scene. Cameras with 8 bits and very low bit rate s definitely cant handle it. 8 bits means only 128 steps per color, and after som grading or lifting shows falls apart like they mentioned in the video. Maybe a camera with 4:2:2 10 bit video and a high bit rate (low compression) could do it, but it would be tough.
@NexLupus, the Z lenses are gonna be brutal on skin textures, that's something amateurs pixel peepers want, but filmmakers, and your clients don't want that.
Also there's a reason cine lenses are generally just much less "clinically sharp" than still lenses. With film you want the talents to look flattering, you don't want every skin and makeup flaws showing up on screen.
Sharpness is not very nice for cinematic result. That’s why these old Nikkors are highly sought after in video. They are extremely good for video and manual focus.
Using legacy lenses as a de facto anti-aliasing filter? How creative.
Video lenses are designed to provide consistent color throughout the set, along with geared control rings, long focusing throw, low distortion and no focus breathing. High resolution is not a priority, when 8K video is only about 30 MP per frame. Nonetheless they're a lot sharper than you might think. If you want something more forgiving for the talent, you use Schneider soft filters in the matte-box. They're mandatory in the Washington press corps.
I was initially bummed about the line skipping, but after spending the last month scouring youtube for any new z6 raw footage that pops up, there have only been a couple shots where I noticed distracting moire/aliasing. For the most part, it's a non-issue, at least when viewed at 1080p after compression (i.e. how the vast majority of people will consume any content you shoot). Additional noise at low light also seems to be mostly a non-issue at 1080p and after compression (personally I can't see a difference in dpreview's low light test on a 1080p display). The overall impression of the footage is a smooth, cinematic look that often makes the 10 bit look overly sharp when compared side by side. Lag on the monitor reportedly reduces from a "kind of terrible" ~.4 sec when shooting 10 bit to a "basically workable" ~.2 sec when shooting raw (you guys should really address this in your review), and nearly everyone seems to be reporting that the skin tones look great right out of camera.
Lots of options. My take is that if you want the absolute sharpest videos, stick with 8-bit internal but nail the exposure and/or compress the dynamic scene. If you want a little more latitude to post and are willing to sacrifice a bit of sharpness from higher noise, go with external 10-bit w/N-Log. If you want the convenience to post process raw but don't care so much about sharpness (think cinematic) then go with Prores Raw. Horses for courses.
Yeah, exposure won't matter. With 8 bit 4:2:0 the second you try to adjust colors, you'll very likely run into problems. If the video bit rate is only 100Mbps with an older codec it gets even worse.
So you got more flexibility in a cost of huge noise performance penalty, huge detail penalty, moire, false colors ,and some hardware functionality penalty. Nice option to have but not great in many situation.
Mr Playstation that doesn't take away the cost of huge noise performance penalty, huge detail penalty, moire, false colors ,and some hardware functionality penalty.
@PAntunes Nowhere did the article say that it was huge... In fact, those that are in the know are raving about the performance of the Z6 in RAW... Even Chris and Jordan come to the conclusion that the results are far better than they anticipated... Please stop with your half truths, if you don't care for the trade off, then shoot 8bit which is already better than Sony or Canon's implementation, or go to 10 bit which Sony does not even give you an option for...
Articles like these bring out the jealousy. They never used any words like "huge" (maybe "large" when describing the superior DR), but the jealous fans sure do! The truth is this camera offers the best of both. One can shoot internally when in very low light, and shoot RAW the rest of the time for more flexibility editing, pulling details from shadows, and fixing what might appear to be blown highlights (like the video showed).
10 bit video with a high bit rate was a big step above 8 bit highly compressed 100Mbps video. And now this is a step above 10 bit.
For most the 10 bit internal 400Mbps video from Fujifilm and Panasonic might be enough, but for others this might be a godsend.
The moral here is avoid cameras with only 8 bit highly compressed 100Mbps video, especially if it uses an ancient codec and lacks h.265. It would be impossible to shoot the scene they did with outdated cameras like that.
NexLupus aren't you capable of having an opinion? Do you need to use others as a reference for everything?
They don't say huge in the video, but they provide footage. And in that footage you can see the huge penalty in noise, detail and false colours. They have side by side shots where you can see how much different the images are.
Half truths is denying that there are trade offs. Is saying that there isn't a penalty in image quality in the raw mode. There is. It's right in the video. It's very visible.
They said "love" a half dozen times and never say "huge^. They mention multiple reasons why this is better. They say something you never hear with a Sony camera, ^love the skin tones*.
Ther is no "penalty" with this camera because it shoots 10 bit very sharp video with little noise in th lowest of light. So best of both worlds, 10 bit video or RAW video. I bet Jordan picks RAW most of the time.
@NexLupus may be trolling, but he's pretty close to the gist of the review. With RAW you get HDR with wide latitude for color grading, at the expense of aliasing, artifacts and lower resolution. With log gamma, you get HDR and higher quality overall, if you manage color control up front.
@PAntunes What are you talking about? You LITERALLY said: “Mr Playstation that doesn't take away the cost of huge noise performance penalty, huge detail penalty, moire, false colors ,and some hardware functionality penalty.” If you are going to troll, at least be an honest troll!!!
Actually they are incorrectly saying there is a "huge" penalty and it is "not great in many situation." Obviously this is false. In most situations there is almost no "penalty" and will be noticeably better than the compressed 8 bit video from other cameras. And of course with this camera unlike some other brands one still has the option to shoot 10 bit video at a higher bit rate. Don't believe them when they say 10 bit video doesn't help and don't believe this nonsense of "huge" penalties for using superior video formats.
NexLupus, again, that penalty is with the format, not the camera. You still have other modes that work fine. It's just the raw that brings those problems.
@NexLupus If you can't see this HUGE difference than you should a visit a good ophthalmologist, seriously... Internal 8bit footage has much better details and low light performance, and don't have that awful moire and false colors. That HUGE difference is clearly visible in the side by side comparison, and doesn't matter how huge F@nboy you are, it doesn't change the facts, so deal with it...
So you got more flexibility in a cost of huge noise performance penalty, huge detail penalty, moire, false colors ,and some hardware functionality penalty. Nice option to have but not great in many situation.
@Anulu are you and PAntunes the same person? Nowhere did the article say that it was huge... In fact, those that are in the know are raving about the performance of the Z6 in RAW... Even Chris and Jordan come to the conclusion that the results are far better than they anticipated... Please stop with your half truths, if you don't care for the trade off, then shoot 8bit which is already better than Sony or Canon's implementation, or go to 10 bit which Sony does not even give you an option for...
@NexLupus If you can't see this HUGE difference than you should a visit a good ophthalmologist, seriously... Internal 8bit footage has much better details and low light performance, and don't have that awful moire and false colors. That HUGE difference is clearly visible in the side by side comparison, and doesn't matter how huge F@nboy you are, it doesn't change the facts, so deal with it...
Please excuse the nitty-picky... But if it is not from the sensor, it is not raw. 4k from a 20mp sensor is not raw. If can be "bitmap" instead of "jpeg", and the levels can be coded in many ways other than they are in normal codecs, but that is basically it.
You're not being nitty picky, just annoying. Everyone knows this isn't pure RAW but there's a reason for that. We are at a stage with compression right now where you can compress an image with a high bitrate and get very similar results to what RAW use to be which was bloated, gross, and usually unnecessary.
**Also raw and RAW are two different things. Not to be picky...
So is this update just a deep processor firmware reprogramming Nikon does it do they alter something more hardware wise internally to output raw over HDMI?
It is likely a money grab of disabling some firmware level crippling. But since it is hard to do DRM on firmware updates, to maintain a 2 tiered pricing structure (People in video production are easier to rip off due to years of abuse)
They can prevent file sharing be having users willing to pay more to mail their camera in, thus outside of workers leaking the firmware file like how that have leaked the servicing software in the past, they can prevent the public from getting a hold ov the update.
"a money grab of disabling some firmware level crippling" ... So we could say that software in general is a money grab for enabling stuff on our hardware and should all be free, right? :)
But yes this send us our camera to do a software update is super lazy thing to do. An easy way to do this is through a registered and online connected software, that can do the update. But sure, there are ways to hack that, so lets make it a hell for legit customers.
The issue is that they are not upgrading the hardware, they are charging for a firmware update. While other companies may do the same, it doesn't make the money grab any less unethical. In the market place it is generally not acceptable to charge different people different prices for the same exact product. Since people in video production are more used to being ripped off, Nikon could get away with a higher price for them, but it will cost them sales for someone more focused on photography. To get the best of both worlds, they get the extra price gouge out of the video focused selling a firmware update that simply unlocks a function already present.
They want cameras mailed in because it's easier to prevent piracy that way, e.g., look at oscilloscope companies that will charge to "unlock" an extra 50-100MHz and how quickly it ends up on a forum and file sharing site.
At least they make it available at an affordable price. Canon wouldn't unlock 4k or other features on their DSLRs at any price for the longest time, and good luck on them offering ProRes on a consumer camera.
If one used ProRes HQ to the ninja, would you have close to the same dynamic range as ProRes Raw? I'm assuming the signal would be cleaner without the line skipping.
Yes and now. 10-bit, 4,2,2 files, recorded with ProRes 422 or HQ, have all the dynamic range you need. However you don't have as much flexibility with color adjustments as with RAW files. The solution is to record at a fixed color temperature appropriate for the lighting.
If the non-RAW footage resamples from the full sized sensor, or crops to a non-resampled format, you get sharper images, better dynamic range and fewer artifacts like Moire than with binned or skipped lines.
Jordan, the catchlight in your eye turns to green regularly when you move your head! Is this related to that false coloring phenomenon that you mentioned? Except this artifact the image quality looks great, but this was really distracting for me. Thanks for the video!
I didn't notice it until I read this comment, and I cannot for the life of me figure out what it is since it seems to expand into other colors at different positions.
They did mention they are using vintage/old lenses and using a harsh light source, so probably something that has to do with it?
It sounds more like an apology tour than a review. The resulting video is not appealing to look at. His face looks like somebody hit the screen with a blotter.
Try taking a photo in those conditions. The strong backlighting, sunlight in background and artificial light in foreground. Crazy dynamic range. Finding the proper WB is not fun.
The lousy contrast distribution could possibly be either a poor edit job or some limits in Final Cut, but the nasty aliasing is clearly the camera. As to the artificial light in the foreground, they said they put it there and these guys are smart enough to use a 5000K light source in such a situation. If you listen to the words, they come very close to saying "it sucks" while still trying to stay positive. That was my point about it sounding like an apology tour.
@ Deliverator. When these guys are "positive", they are POSITIVE. This review was not negative, but it was very hedged and yes, I am saying "it sucks", at least based on the displayed result, which as I said, could be partly due to limitations of the edit.
They also did say that Youtube might be killing the look with compression. I also wasn't thrilled with the look (watching on a non-calibrated monitor), but I'll trust their eyes above mine.
Something like 1.7 x crop raw video mode would be much better for many purposes than line-skipping using full width of the sensor for most purposes. I think it would be doable (if 1.5 x crop is not).
It is nice to see Nikon giving users this option. It is another tool that most other cameras do not offer. If you worry about sharpness or extremely low light the Z6 internal recording already has that covered. But now there is a RAW option for the best DR and best flexibility during editing.
The trick was to create a RAW format for HDMI, and a matching codec from BMD in the NinjaV. RAW is usually transmitted via SDI (3G to 12G) in DCI format (e.g., 4096x2160 for 4K, instead of 3840x2160). The Ninja V cannot handle DCI, even with an SDI adapter, but the Shogun Inferno can.
For what it's worth, the SDI adapter for the Ninja V is either/or. It cannot translate HDMI to SDI or vice versa. Again, that's what the Shogun Inferno is for. The Nikon Z does not have an SDI port, just micro-HDMI. For SDI, you still need a real video camera.
I think you may have some facts wrong, or I am misinterpreting what you are saying. BMD does not have anything to do with the ProRes Raw codec, that's all Apple and Atomos. I agree with your math. But I am wondering then how Panasonic plans to do ProRes Raw 6k full sensor readout over HDMI to the Ninja V in the S1h. I also wonder if Jordan's review of the S1h will be as minimal as this one was. Doubt it.
And you have to pay from the...upgrade and also need Atomos Ninja V!
Other brands did not think this as option. They have some standards for quality in 2020! Interlaced video is long buried ancient relic. Do not dig it up.
I sort of disagree. Making this an option versus making people pay for it regardless even if they won't use it is the better move here, Not everyone who buys a Z6 is doing video or wants ProRes. I personally wouldn't want to have to pay an extra $800-$100 or whatever it ends up being in the end, for a feature I'd never use. I'd rather have the OPTION to add it later if I wanted it rather than be forced to buy it.
The Ninja V can make just about any camera look good, with or without RAW. It also has a monitor which can be seen in bright sunlight and an optional sun shade. I won't leave home without one (or three).
I have a camera which uses line (and row) skipping for one mode (oversampled for other) and it's not so much the resolution difference that bothers me, it's moire and false color caused by noise+skipping (and there's more noise as the effective sensor area is decreased). But, different people have different needs and I'm sure some would find this acceptable or even preferable.
That depends on what signal-to-noise ratio criteria one uses to measure dynamic range. Line skipping will not affect the engineering dynamic range, which is what DxoMark measures and uses a SNR ratio of 1:1. It may affect the Photographic Dynamic Range, which is Bill Claff's measurement and uses a much higher SNR ratio cutoff.
Line skipping discards entire rows from the sensor, which means less light captured, which means more more shot noise. This will not materially affect the read noise, which establishes the deep shadow end of dynamic range near an SNR of 1:1, or the saturation point, which establishes the highlight end of that dynamic range.
In either case, the additional dynamic range from 12-bit sampling in the raw should outweigh any loss from the additional noise of line skipping.
Thanks. I assume typically ETTR is used for raw video when DR is maximized. So what matters is the shadows, which I believe will be affected (sorry I do not fully understand what you wrote).
I wonder how the raw video compares to let's say BMPCC 4k with raw video (4:3 sensor, $1300 on Amazon). If two thirds of the sensor is not used (24Mp / 8Mp = 3/1, resolution of sensor / resolution of 4k video), I would expect the IQ to be similar.
For DOF we get 36mm (FF) raw, but for image quality, I am not so sure. Still, it is better than nothing.
@falconeyes, DxoMark has DR data at both native and normalized to 8MP. But since we're talking about 4K video that's downsized from 24MP then you're absolutely right.
"Thanks. I assume typically ETTR is used for raw video when DR is maximized"
Actually, you generally expose 1 or 2 stops under the ideal in order to have more flexibility dealing with highlights. This is the same principle used when applying log gamma, but RAW gives you cleaner shadows.
I should add, log gamma, underexposed by 2 stops, gives you nearly 9 stops of headroom. Room-lit subjects agains a sunlit window or with streaming sunlight is something I am forced to do on a regular basis.
I think it is a fantastic addition making the z6 the best video DSLR MIrrorless camera out there for video. The only problem for me is Atomos Blackmagic Prores RAW and BM Raw. The thing is that we seems to be in a format war. The best tool to use that PRORES Raw would be Davinci Resolve and unfortunately it doesn't offer Proress Raw.
I don't know how much time BM can do this as they have a lot of studio etc that might start to need Prores Raw compatibility, but it is really anoying, because there is some bad blood going on between Atomos and BM, and I can't see Atomos putting BM raw in their recorders.
Adobe announced that a native version (not BMD) of ProRes RAW will be available shortly. DaVinci Resolve also supports BMD RAW and ProRes RAW, but only in the paid version.
On 2020, Jan 11, I made a test (in collaboration with photographer Marc Jungbluth) and blog post about the topic where I actually found out and confirmed that Z6 RAW uses pixel skipping (probably line plus row skipping).
On Jan 13, it actually made it to the EOSHD home page ;)
@Chris Niccolls @Jordan Drake Do you refer to this work when making the "*we can confirm that line skipping is used" footnote in the video @2:45? Or is there other work I'd like to be aware about?
Nikon needs to give the Z6 6k ProRes RAW as there is no *technical* reason not to.
What do you mean? It totally is. Of course some things could be better. But isn’t that the case with everything always?
It is totally ready for prime time. Nothing else can offer this quality and flexibility at this price point. Black magic cameras are not full frame and are not hybrid like this Nikon.
Einride, I'm not talking about what the camera can offer at this price point. I'm just saying it's not ready yet.
When you need to add an external recorder, when you get worst video quality than shooting compressed, when you get worst low light performance, when you add moire to the images, when you need a specific brand of computers with a specific software to open the footage that can disrupt your entire workflow, I don't just call that "some things could be better".
Imagine all those limitations on a stills camera. You can either shoot JPEG or you can shoot raw but have all those limitations.
An external recorder gives the option of much cheaper media. Consider ProRes raw can burn through 1tb in pretty short amount of time ( the amount I forget right now sorry). If using multiple 500gb internal memory cards for a short shoot is prime time it’s news to me. Using an external screen is also quite common. Agreed ProaRes Raw is not really a run and gun format presently!
@PAntunes The reality is that Blackmagic (for all intents and purposes) requires an external recorder, as mentioned above... Add to this that the Blackmagic is not even Full Frame, and you know see that the Z6 stands alone among all cameras below $15K.
I googled a bit in a video world and this looks like as close to run and gun as you can get in video world. Cause you have full AF support and internal recorders are still needed for video work cause RAW video will give you 45 minutes of footage with 1 TB of storage. SSD drives are several times cheaper than CFExpress. And all this data recording process generate heat so you either need a fan inside the camera (bad idea) or an external recorder.
PAntunes without the image quality? Have you seen the footage? I bet it'll be better with time when companies that make RAW demosaic algorithms will find out hot to work with this particular sensor. Cause when you see aliasing that basically means that the lens is too sharp for the sensor. There are lots of tools now to fight moire with software tricks cause all cameras without AA filters suffer from it. So the IQ will be even better.
Serjojeee, have you seen the footage of the lens at high ISO? That's breaking apart much more than an 8bit internal footage... And have you seen the catchlights on the eyes changing colour? What was that???
Dude, that's unusable.... And that's where the problem is. You'll never know if you're messing it up. You can't simply remove moire or remove noise or add sharpness. And you can't go to a client and say "sorry, we need to reshoot that interview because I decided to use raw and fudged up..."
This RAW isn't a "set it and forget it" mode. It's still very experimental and limited.
I've seen it. But moire reduction and RAW demosaicing in general are software algorithms that can be improved. The same moire reduction etc. is made internally by Z6 itself in 8 bit mode. Speaking of noise, yes, it's higher. But you can use 10 bit for low light or deal with higher noise in 12 bit. Z6 sensor works good in low light even with line skipping IMO. I've seen night footage of Z6 and that looked great IMO.
Serjojeee what you're saying is that sometimes you go back to internal because the raw doesn't work... So you agree with me that this raw mode isn't ready for prime time... Sometimes you're still better off going back to compressed video.
PAntunes I'm not saying that it doesn't work. I'm saying that there are pros and cons to shooting RAW. And I'm saying that as with photo RAW you'll be limited with the demosaic algorithm. Like C1 vs ACR etc.
Serjojeee video raw isn't the same as photo raw. ProRes raw is already the converted version. The problem is on the way nikon exports the video from the sensor to be encoded to ProRes Raw.
PAntunes ProRes applies some compression. On top of that you need to make some demosaicing. But if you see aliasing (too much sharpness) and soft picture (not enough sharpness) than something is wrong with the demosaicing algorithm. They'll figure a way to work with this new sensor. Just give them some time. I'm sure you don't know for sure that the proplem is on the NIkon side. Their own demosaicing done by Z6 for 8/10 bit footage looks very good. Sharp and no moire.
Serjojeee, again, you're not disagreeing with me... You just don't want to accept the facts.
If they need some time to figure it out, it's because the raw from this camera isn't ready yet... That adjusting should've been done before the camera was released. It's not a ProRes problem. It's not a Final Cut problem. Any other camera that shoots ProRes Raw can give decent quality from day one. The problem is how Nikon is sending the data to ProRes...
PAntunes I am disagreeing with you. I'm saying that different tools (ProRes, log etc.) give you different benefits and have their own shortcomings. With RAW video sharpening tools and other tools might give you different IQ on micro level. Cause basically you can tweak demosaicing algorithms to your liking. And I'm not seeing those IQ problems that you exaggerate IMO. What I see is great dynamic range from photographic world in video world. A milestone.
Well done Nikon, what a great upgrade for their cameras. ProRes RAW video is the future and would love to see more mirrorless cameras get this too. The timing of this upgrade just before CP+ is very telling so lets hope Canon is considering this in their just about to be released cameras.
Is it just me, or was the high contrast of Jordan’s nose shadow really distracting? To be fair I’m watching a YouTube mangled file on an iPhone, but that’s how a lot of viewers view these days...
I quote Einride: "Shame about the line skipping trick they had to do to make it work but tbh I trade the much increased dynamic range and pushable colours over a small loss in sharpness any day. Sharpness is overhyped.
I love the skin is rendered. All looking really soft and beautiful. Who knew the Nikon Z6 would be this good.
It makes it a great option to something like a Black Magic camera and much better than something like a Sony."
The line skipped 4K RAW video lacks in details, it's full of aliasing and moire artifacts. Awful compared to the internal 4K video! And when you think Nikon is even asking money for this thing + it's required to send the camera in service for the new firmware. Utterly pointless IMO!
Eno2, I watched this video on 65" 4K Samsung QLed TV and it looks fantastic. They even tip about how you can eliminate moire (if it appears at all). I prefer incredible dynamic range and hugely flexible Raw files. AND, Z6 gives you the option to record in camera as well, if you think you'll have issues in some scenes.
@ozturert "ell me another FF camera which gives you 12bit Raw video under 2000USD." It can be 16 bit RAW if the image is line skipped garbage!
@PLShutterbug "You appear determined to hate Nikon’s effort" There was to little effort from Nikon's part to begin with. One year late, extra cost and garbage line skipped quality! This was a bad joke that will stain their reputation even further!
Hollywood movies are usually shot on Arri Alexa which tend to be 2.8k upscaled to 4k and tend to look much softer than the A7III's 4k, have you ever gone to a movie and think that "man, these movies are really soft I wish they look sharper."?
Last I checked, the alexa mini is still widely used and still makes up the most of oscar winning films.
Also sharpness =/= details. Filmmakers despise the digital sharp look. Go tell the the footages out of the Arri Alexa is worse than the A7III because the Arri is less digitally sharp.
Eno2 You just come off as a dishonest troll. There is a small loss in sharpness but just as Jordan says for cinematic production it is totally worth it and far better than anything else. As I wrote previously, the colours, the dynamic range and the flexibility makes the Z6 unbeatable right now.
I mean just look at the image man! It is beautiful!
@Einride "You just come off as a dishonest troll. There is a small loss in sharpness but just as Jordan says for cinematic production it is totally worth it and far better than anything else. "
And now you make me a Troll, very civilized...
Unfortunately, the raw video quality is still garbage (full of moire, aliasing and lacking in detail), it adds unnecessary high cost and nobody will care about this in a couple of months. :)
How many times do you notice moire in the real world?
And if moire is a problem for you, you still have fully downsampled 10bit 422, still better than being stuck with 8 bit 100 mpbs that fall apart easily when graded.
I'm not saying it can't work. I'm just saying it's not aimed at. Any filmmaker will probably prefer to have a dedicated film camera than a hybrid one.
Who do I see using this to film? Smaller production companies doing lots of stuff for smaller clients. Same companies that would shoot a travel series or a small documentary that would be posted on youtube.
And if I had to choose between RAW or Internal for a project like that, I'd go internal...
You need to understand that many Cine cams don't even shoot raw internal (none of the Sony cine cams shoot raw internally), they often require accessories that cost a few thousands bucks, usually even bigger than the atomos ninja V. The ones that do shoot raw internal tend to cost 15k upward and many production can't afford or don't need a full line up of cinecams, especially now that hybrid cams are so good.
Those companies have BMPC... Better raw and a proper video setup. And a canon C200 shoots 4k raw for way less than 15k....
So I don't really think that the Z6 is for filmmakers.... And when you have the problems with the raw that this camera has, I don't think many will move to Nikon for video.
This will be for hybrid shooters. And will a hybrid shooter be interested in getting this kind of raw video file?
Even with my +2 reading glasses for close work I can't see any softness in this video (4k 27"screen at 6 inches away) . Line skipping is perfectly ok. It reduces file size to make it manageable.
You are forgetting that the C200 is not FF 4K. There is no other camera that gives you the quality of the Z6 in FF PRo Res Raw for under 15K. With regards to adventure travel, I would go with the Z6 in flat profile which is wonderfully easy to grade or get EOSHD Z log which is really good. Or if you want to create your own, Beatboxa has posted how to make your own which is really easy and good.
@NexLupus: Z6 does not provide true FF raw video either. In my understanding 3/2 (67%) of the pixels / sensor area is not used at all (but I may be wrong). This would mean that Z6 raw video quality would supposedly be between APS-C and (Micro) Four Thirds raw video (BMPCC). Yes, the quality is impressive, and this is exactly what people have been telling all the years: You don't need a FF sensor for great video.
@pannumon: from the Nikon website on the Z6: “Capture cinematic 16:9 4K UHD/30p video in full-frame using the total width and resolution of the Z 6’s backside-illuminated sensor.”
Since the sensor is over 6000 pixels and 4K is only 3840, there will be some interpolation but it does use the entire sensor width, if you can trust their marketing speak.
@PLShutterbug: It uses the whole width, but not all the lines. Interpolation would be pixel-binning. Pixel-binning is actually OK in my opinion, but the raw video mode is reported to use line-skipping which simply means not using part of the data for anything. This also explains the color artifacts.
Instead of cropping the edges of the image, the camera crops pixels in between the pixels that are being read.
I don‘t share eno2’s opinion which is a bit extreme. But line skipping in Z6 raw is a shame nevertheless: Because there was absolutely no necessity! Both the Z6 and the Ninja V perfectly support everything needed for 6k RAW. As shown by the collaboration of Panasonic and Atomos, the HDMI spec, and the internal 6k video processing capabilities of the Z6.
Even if the Z6 HDMI port should be crippled, it would still support 6k@24fps 12 Bit RAW as it is the same data rate as N-Log@30fps (up to 8% difference). In the very worst, they could have cropped to an 18:9 or 21:9 aspect ratio :)
@falconeyes So maybe in a future firmware we will have 6K ;) Despite this, everything that I have seen to date from the Z6 in ProRes Raw is stunning and very cinematic, all for 1/5 of any other FF Raw camera on the market!
Shame about the line skipping trick they had to do to make it work but tbh I trade the much increased dynamic range and pushable colours over a small loss in sharpness any day. Sharpness is overhyped.
I love the skin is rendered. All looking really soft and beautiful. Who knew the Nikon Z6 would be this good.
It makes it a great option to something like a Black Magic camera and much better than something like a Sony.
The pros are good, but at least I didn't expect other downsides than storage and processing power. In my mind for better quality you go from heavy compression to light compression to RAW where that's the gold standard.
That and from the original announcement to making it a paid, physical upgrade... maybe Nikon is just fighting expectations they created for themselves, but I'm kinda disappointed this is what it ends up being in the end.
@Kjellrs But the question you should ask is, what FF camera can you get with this quality that shoots RAW 4K for under 15K? The answer is none except for the Z6
@NexLupus Won't the new Canon do it? Though it's uncompressed and you only get ~10 minutes on a 128GB card. Don't get me wrong, I have the filmmaker kit and I think it's great.
@robertfel I don't know as it's not on the market yet, but even if it does the Canon 1DXIII will cost $6500 plus the need to buy a Ninja on top of that.
@NexLupus It launches this coming week. No, it's internal, you don't need a Ninja. Actually, it will only do log to the Ninja, not RAW. https://youtu.be/25c74uBaIWU?t=146
I understand that you can do it internally, my point is that for any serious shooting you will need an external drive...I didn't even realize that you can't even use an external drive for Raw.
You asked, "But the question you should ask is, what FF camera can you get with this quality that shoots RAW 4K for under 15K?" I'm a happy Z6 owner. I'm just pointing out that your answer is wrong. You can't then change the question to 7K. And no, you don't need an external drive or recorder, CFe cards will eventually be 2TB. Most of my scenes are <1 minute, so a 128GB would still work fine if I really needed the RAW.
Eh, maybe not the BEST. But it depends on what you're after: AF for wildlife: probably not... Video: maybe... Stills: sure. While the Z's are a great start for NIkon, they do have plenty of room for improvement. Your needs will dictate which camera (brand or model) is best for you. Right now, if was shooting sports, I likely would have gotten a Sony, but since I shoot stills (landscape and people mostly), the Nikon Z's are more than plenty for that (I don't shoot video though).
The Z cameras's AF is more than capable of shooting wildlife. Don't let criticism of the camera's tracking implementation fool you - most wildlife shooters aren't letting the camera track for them.
I quote Einride: "Shame about the line skipping trick they had to do to make it work but tbh I trade the much increased dynamic range and pushable colours over a small loss in sharpness any day. Sharpness is overhyped.
I love the skin is rendered. All looking really soft and beautiful. Who knew the Nikon Z6 would be this good.
It makes it a great option to something like a Black Magic camera and much better than something like a Sony."
@just someone: It makes your camera about $900 more expensive, as you need to send it in for the update ($200) and you require the Atomos screen too ($700). So yes it has a feature that is very interesting to professional video makers, who only buy this camera as a small extra camera for special need situations. This will not add much to their sales at all as for most users RAW video is a pain in the @ss as it gives you large files, less sharpness and a lot more post processing, to get the extra SDR.
@Einride: You are right, but the Z6 is mainly an amateur camera, not really aimed at high end professional work that really need a separate screen. The market for cameras like the Z6 for professional video work is very limited. So although it is a nice option for this small group, it still isn't more then just that, a niche feature.
@frensen This option opens up new markets to Nikon. There's lots of filmmakers who must make do for their personal projects with their own hybrid camera. In the last year, Nikon has just gone from non-starter to front of the class in terms of inexpensive, capable filmmaking tools.
If the Z6 RAW is Nikon's last foray into adding cinematographic features to its SLR cameras, it would be of limited value. As an early step to full cinema capabilities, it's fantastic. This RAW capability will be of huge value to music video producers among other indies.
@robertfel & UncoyDP: You show us what I said: it is a nice option for the few that really needs that option, but still it is a small group that really needs it. It is a good thing Nikon makes it a paid upgrade as most people will only use RAW video once and never after that. Only you professionals will use it and are willing to pay the price.
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