News of the Sony a7R III is hot off the press and we've just gotten some hands-on time with the camera at an event in New York. So what's the first thing to try? Why, 10 fps mechanical shutter bursts, with continuous autofocus, of course. It's impressive on paper and sure enough, it's darn impressive in person. Take a look for yourself.
DPreview should mention that at 10fps, what you see is just a slide show of pictures taken. There is a lot of people in the comments praising this camera for not showing blackout when it is simply showing the picture taken, not what the sensor is currently seeing.
It is basically working in the same way that old cameras has worked before, including the a99II that also has 42Mpx but shoots at 12fps while showing a slideshow unless you lower the speed to 8fps, which then shows a simulated blackout (I believe the a6300 introduced this feature).
so, if you were say, following some fast-ish moving action, maybe a bird in flight, racing car on a track, plane at an airshow, a bee zipping between flowers on a bush or kids running around playing, then what would be the better mode to use? the 10fps 'slide show' or the slightly lower fps with simulated black out?
I'm kind of confused with what is on offer here.
I've only used an A7Rii for a couple of days a year ago & I recall it being hard to follow fast erratic moving subjects due to the blackout.
Sadly, getting the Sony A9 is probably the only good way to track a subject at high speed. With the rest of mirrorless and SLT cameras from Sony is more like trying to predict where the subject might end rather than actually following the subject.
I thought viewfinder/LCD black out on the A7Riii was meant to be an improvement from the A7Rii, albeit, not quite up to the A9.
I was kind of hoping that the A7Riii might have done enough to make following (panning) a fast moving subject viable. Most if not all the video clips I've found on line since the A7Riii press day show a subject that is moving, but not really straying beyond the frame with little panning or camera direction change required.
i have been using Sony equipment since 2010, and the 10fps burst in the a7RIII still shows the same kind of behavior as other cameras from Sony with the exception being the a9.
Yes, there is no blackout, but that's because the camera is showing you a slideshow of pictures taken, not what the sensor is seeing in real time. Look at the video and notice how the movement of the model drops in frame rate compared to after the burst ends.
The a7R III isn't a true move forward in terms of performance, because the a99 II already did just as good as the a7R III, a year ago.
If you were say, shooting an air show and pan-following a fast jet flyby, which mode would you use? The 10fps slide show or 8fps with small black outs? Which would be best? Do you think you could follow the action okay?
The A6500/A6300 can do 11fps in Hi+ mode where you cannot see Live View of the burst. It can do 8fps in Hi mode with live view, which is a sort of simulation but effective nonetheless.
This is what the A7R III does, but at 10 and 8 fps respectively.
Only the A9 has a true black out free burst mode, even at 20fps.
Nothing amazing, what you see is a slideshow. Sony cameras has been doing this since forever when using mechanical shutter. This includes the a99II that also has 42MPx and shoots at 12fps.
But for clarification. At 8 fps you see a live feed and at 10 fps you see a slide show (last picture taken). So in other words at 8 fps it is as close as you can get to DSLR like tracking.
It actually is blacking out entirely. The live view feed is being replaced by a string of captured images. Pretty sure that introduces a little bit of a delay, which for tracking moving subjects is not a good thing. You don't notice it in this example because the model isn't going anywhere, but I suspect you'd rather have live view + blackout than a delayed image review. This is not like the A9.
For FF it is a big deal. (fast shutterspeed is a great benefit of small sensor) The great D850 is only capable of 9fps, and even then only with a special battery and grip extension.
@BBQue First, the model is barely moving, so I don't understand what they try to prove. Second, I don't think that filling a memory card with 1 GB of (most likely) useless images in 2.5 seconds is very interesting. And third, the camera shown here does not contain a memory card, which makes the "impressive" story even less interesting. Sorry for not being impressed by this video! However, I have absolutely no doubt that the camera is excellent, like most expensive cameras. Being good is the minimum we can expect from a $3200 camera body!
They were not trying to prove AF, they were illustrating the EVF without blackout. The lack of SD card is irrelevant, cause it only affects performance after the buffer is filled, and not during short bursts as shown.
The only other camera that can do this is the A9 (higher framerate, but half the MP). I find it highly impressive. It's twice the rate from A7rii which is just 2 years old.
@BBQue Anyway, could you please explain why seeing images without blackout during a 10 fps capture is important? Even if you can see the images, what else can you do? OK you convinced me, it is actually technically impressive, but my feeling is just "so what?" We got more and more pixels, now we get less blackout, but it does not necessarily translate into better images IMO.
@BBQue Nothing impressive since the Sony a99II was released last year. The a99II actually does it better by shooting 42Mpx at 12fps.
In fact, Sony cameras has been shooting at 10fps since 2010 (Sony NEX-5 and Sony SLT-A55) without "blackout". What I'm trying to say is... the a7RM3 is behaving pretty much in the same way as Sony cameras has been doing since 2010. You should realize that what you see in the video, is just a slideshow of pictures taken, not a continuous live view ala Sony A9.
Good luck going through thousands of photos that look nearly the same! Meh... I rather be taking photos than spending time in front of the computer looking at 1000 images of the same boring model!
@fjbyrne If you can tell the cam to take only 3 fps or 5 fps instead of 10 fps I say you're right. But if the cam can only take one-shot and 10 fps it's very frustrating. Sometimes you need 10fps, but sometimes it's way too much.
@vcsd I'm pretty sure there are high and low speed continuous shooting on the A7RII (I think my A6000 has this also). Just looked it up and there is a 5 and 2.5 fps option for the A7RII. Can't speak for the A7RIII but I would expect there to be a slower mode (10 and 5 perhaps).
Would be nice to just set the amount of frames... (Hey Canon/Nikon/Sony.., that would be NICE!). Sometimes I really miss those features instead of "new" fancy stuff no one needs. 30 or 60 seconds limit or bulb, why? Let me enter the seconds or give me a T-Mode instead of Bulb. Bring back the A-DEP Mode. Ok, I'm getting aroused again... ;)
all A7 line is great, great cameras. Sony must now think about make them cheap, fit in real prices, if he can... Otherwise - Rolls Royce is also great car...
Yes you can get them for good prices, but the ergonomics of the old A7 is still misserable (even if the tech is quite ok). Maybe a revised A7 with new body would be great for a low price. Isn't that the cheap fullframe Sonycam some people really want?
Canon 6D and Nikon 600/750 are entry cams and they sell like hot donuts.
A7 was good camera, but i tried it at shop - unbelievable noisy shutter, really. Its even more noisy then DSLR. For example,. Fuji's APS-s cameras have near zero noise shutters, Panasonic cameras too. Why Sony has noisy shutter? Maybe A72 is more quiet?
Well this is not live preview. Camera is showing last frame captured without blackout It's same with a6500 that shoots 11fps or 8 fps with livepreview. This is not stacked sensor.
If you have used recent Sony cameras while shooting above 8fps (sans a9), you will see slideshow, sure, no blackout, but seeing a slideshow is basically past pictures, not what the sensor currently sees.
Either, people are getting amazed by a slideshow, or they haven't used Sony cameras in the real world.
Rooru S: which is not very useful when you're trying to track a moving subject and composing right. Ok for portraits, useless for sports / wildlife / action. And before anybody says "that's what the A9 is for"... really, only one mirrorless camera on the market that can do sports?
BlueBomberTurbo: LOL (1/10=0.2). Anyway, 0.2s might be in the right ballpark, but I am not sure BBQue has any source for that or he is just as good in math as you are (if you are serious).
An important point is that the delay has nothing to do with the framerate and everything to do with the time it takes to process the image.
sts2: The slideshow is useless. The live view with blackouts is usable (in general with MILCs). People mix it up all the time when talk about blackouts. The A9 is special as it has live view without the blackouts.
"...but I am not sure BBQue has any source"... this is based on 10fps and that I read, that at highest burst rate, the EVF displays the last image taken, not the current one. Hence a 0.2 delay DURING burst.
For framing and composition it is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT, cause the EVS is without lag beforw you press that shutter button. *well, I shouldn't say without, it takes a few milliseconds to move the electrons around...
BBQue: Yes, the image shown is the last image taken and fully processed. But, as I said, the delay has nothing to with the framerate (why should it?) and everything to do with the time it takes to process the image.
In any case, 1/10 is most certainly not 0.2, if you still haven't noticed.
I was thinking about "worst case scenario": current picture is not being displayed while read off the sensor to memory, so that puts the clock back 0.1 second. The picture before that started 0.2 sec ago and finished 0.1 sec ago. But it's lots of assumptions and it may be totally wrong.
But the camera might be doing more things in parallel - reading the sensor, processing an image, writing to the SD card (though I guess the image shown is probably from the buffer). The processing might be broken up to several stages as well. Each stage in the processing pipeline will add to the delay. To be clear - I have no idea how exactly this is done in cameras, but I guess it is pretty sophisticated by now.
Obviously, I do not know how long the delay is in the A7R III. From what I have seen on other cameras, the delay can be much longer than people assume, even half a second or so. 0.2s might be a reasonable guess for a new and fast camera.
kolyy: I agree, I don't understand why people get so hung up on this "no blackout" thing. I'd much rather have a realtime display of what's happening in front of my lens with 0ms delay + blackout, than a slideshow that's choppy and delayed by 100-200ms. For fast action such a delay is completely unacceptable. Which is why no serious DSLR user cries about blackouts... they're not relevant because inbetween the blackouts you're seeing exactly what's going on and are able to track it, without delay.
sts2: Not sure if you understand this, but there is no noticeable delay with the EVF while you compose or frame. Only when you press the shutter to initiate the burst will it lag behind a little. How much remains to be seen.
And having black-outs between each frame, isn't that the very definition of "choppiness"? You really need to see this with your own eyes and compare (Canon 1Dx versus Sony A9). The reason why "serious DSLR users" don't cry about it is because they have zero choice.
BBQue I understand it quite well, and it is exactly the burst part I am talking about. Burst shooting is very relevant when capturing something that moves, and something that moves usually requires the photographer to keep accurate track of it within the frame. Depending on the speed of that subject, a fraction of a second can already be enough to disturb that activity.
Serious DSLR users do have a choice: they can switch to Sony, or Fuji, or any other mirrorless brand. However the fact that many of them don't seems to suggest that the "there's no blackout" holy grail isn't all that important.
Would be good to see how a video showing it following a moving target like a Bird in flight or speeding car. A) How easy is it to keep the subject framed and B) how well AF is maintained.
Would also like to see a video with a converted Canon lens......but I guess that ain’t gonna happen anytime soon!
Man, I'd hate to be canikon trying play catch-up in the mirrorless segment. Sony's been at it since 2012...canikon says 2018 for us...how do you make up for 7 lost years in this industry?
I think I read somewhere recently that Canon’s mirrorless isn’t expected now until end of 2018, I think they may have ‘blown’ it now.....Sony might get another generation in by then ;-)
There won't be a Canon or Nikon FF mirrorless in 2018. Mark my words. Neither company has the balls to introduce a new mount, which is what it would require.
Their users will desert in droves if they have to wait ten years to re-acquire their existing DSLR lenses in mirrorless.
I would guess both Canon and Nikon are between a rock and a hard place on this issue. They're probably afraid of destroying their DSLR business by introducing a serious mirrorless system. Canon should have the guts to do it as they were the one that thumbed their nose at their FD system owners when they intro'd the EF mount but that paid huge dividends for them down the road. One would think they'd have learned.
Remember Canon's DSLR sales are about twice the sales of all the other mirrorless camera makers combined, but I think a FF mirrorless will be along in 2018, also Nikon.
it will be funny seeing the smirk wiped off your face next year. Nikon is already on record about their mirrorless FF and it has a new mount and they have just patented 3 new mirrorless lenses.
Just because something gets patented does not mean it ever will be build.... we'll see. But unless Canon/Nikon build new lens lines from scratch, they are stuck with the big camera shape. Lots of empty, useless space where the mirror box used to sit.
if you look at comparable lenses between Sony & Canon (& I have!) there is no size/weight saving advantage between the two (rather surprisingly).
If you rountinely carry around more than one lens & a single body, then the size benefit of the Sony mirrorless is somewhat reduced.
Additionally, for me (I have relatively large hands being an over 6'3" male) I think I'd need the grip permanently attached to the Sony mirrorless cameras for comfort, where as I'm fine with my 5d2 without a grip, which again evens out the differential.
The point I'm trying to make is that for many, I don't think the perceived size benefit is present most of the time, & there are other reasons why folk find mirrorless attractive.
unless that is an artificially added shutter sound I'd say the video is using mechanical. there is "No Card" on the monitor (no card in camera=no writing to card=faster shutter for the demo?).
the camera probably displays the last image it took, so it looks like there is no blackout (you can see the blackout due to the shutter when the first image is exposed)
I suspect this is because the screen is actually just showing the series of images as they are captured, instead of an actual live view feed. It doesn't appear as such because the model is hardly moving, but you'd probably get something similar to a "10fps video feed" while shooting. I'd rather have a blackout to be honest, but that's just me.
Ok..... maybe because she isn't moving much, I'm missing the "choppiness" of the slideshow effect.
I do wonder -- Is it blackout free in electronic shutter? Or does it use the A6300 8-fps simulated live view trick in both mechanical and electronic shutter?
The A6300/6500 8fps mode is a 'live view' of current frames rather than last frame, so it's closest to simulating a standard flippy-mirror blackout and for following a moving subject. The 11fps mode on the A6300/6500 I suspect is much like the 10fps mode above - in the viewfinder, it behaves much like watching a video being recorded - there are no perceived blackouts, but the display is not live - it's slightly delayed. So it looks perfectly smooth, and for consistently moving subjects would allow easy follow and shooting - but for erratic moving subjects you will have more difficulty. In 8fps mode on the A6300 following a fast erratic subject is easy, in 11fps mode it's a bit more difficult - even though there's no perceived blackout in the display. The A9 is different in that it is presenting a blackout-free video-like display, but live - ie: imperceptible delay. Again, assuming this camera works similarly to the A6300/6500 in 10fps mode.
Seriously. The mirror is the #1 scapegoat for why the D850's AF was botched. It allegedly moves slower than the D5's, so the AF sensor has less time to read the scene between shots.
Firstly, portrait photography and anything related to capturing facial expressions has always been the primary market for high-fps photography. And yes, subjects in such settings usually "don't move".
Secondly, that woud be "something that doesn't move". "Doesn't".
@DavidB2: Wro-o-ng. Firstly, "firstly" is perfectly correct. Secondly, while you do indeed have a choice between "first" and "firstly", the subsequent points are always "secondly", "thirdly" and so on. Never "second" or "third" (!). Thirdly, because of the above, just for the sake of pure consistency "firstly" is the preferred form.
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