Chris and Jordan have been testing a full production EOS R3 and pushing it to the limits: high ISO tests, dynamic range, eye-controlled AF, flash photography and more!
You may recall that in their EOS R3 first impressions review with a pre-production Canon R3, Jordan experienced a couple of overheat warnings. Watch to find out how the production camera performed.
that first penguin shot is adorable. super cool too how zoomed in you can see the water droplets float on top of their feathers like glass, not getting soaked in at all
There is something to be said about all of these high end cameras and when using for high speed action: while they are excellent at doing a lot of the work for you, there is no substitute to really knowing the camera and the type of photography you are using it for.
I've read threads on all types of cameras, including the Sony A1, Canon R5, Nikon Z series, and also on pro DSLRs like the 1DX III and D6/D5, etc....and the ones who really use them frequently and to great effect all have their expertise and tricks about how to most effectively use those cameras.
These are not point and shoots...although again they can function well that way, but often not at optimal for certain types of shooting. That's why there are books and courses, even photo experiences with pro photographers, where one can learn more about how to use these technological marvels most effectively.
"Yes one can read the impression of Jeff Cable, a pro who used the R3 at the Olympics." The Cable guy is sponsored by Canon. Asking his opinion about Canon would be the same as asking a priest about god.
Yes, he is a Canon ambassador, but at least he knows what he is doing, took a lot of time to learn the camera, and certainly knows how to photograph sports. As someone else mentioned, he shows his work.
You are right in that he is biased but one can learn from him as well.
But then again, all of those YouTubers who praise Sony also receive benefit from that. Some are sponsored by Sony, and others benefit due to Sony giving them preferential treatment, like pre-release gear in advance, which means they get to make videos about it, which means more views = more money.
@Thoughts R Us but of course Canon ambassadors are ok, while photographers like Mark Smith or Patrick Murphy-Racey are full of it!!!! Clearly they never show their work and do not know how to shoot birds or sports
The king of double standards is back at it with no shame!
It was a little bit of a surprise to see the R3 noise performance in this video, not quite what i expected. I wonder how it compares to the R5. Perhaps they can throw it into the mix along with the other tests to compare both dynamic range and noise levels.
The people criticizing the camera will never use one, never intended on buying one, and just want to judge on a few specs thrown out there.
And honestly, the only possible knock against it is the resolution. And that is certainly not anything bad, but just less than the A1/Z9.
But yes, too many have been conditioned to look at a camera, any camera, look at a few specs on paper, and then make a snap judgement in a very simplistic way.
It's funny to see some dismiss the R3, when it's one of the most capable and advanced cameras ever made. But spec judging causes a lack of perspective.
It was not a critique, it was only a statement based upon a observation of the video. I would happily buy the R3 if i had the money to throw at it. But for the moment i have to shoot with the R5. I never said the noise performance of the R3 was unacceptable, please stop assuming i said things which i never did.
Nikon designed and developed the Z9 sensor, just has they do for all their high end cameras. It doesn't really matter where the fabrication / assembly takes place so long as Nikon semiconductor stepper equipment is used. Anyone following published patents will know Nikon have a state of the art sensor design capability and the Z9 is just one of those sensors.
Rumour is the key word. We don’t know who actually does. And history has shown that Nikon has designed their own and hired Sony to make it to spec. And history has shown that Nikon gets more out of their sensor than Sony does with the same/similar sensor. Anyway, who cares. Nikon and Minolta never made their own film either.
What amazes me about this Nikon / Sony sensor trope is that the author always completely overlooks the point that if Sony was designing and owning the rights to Nikon sensors, they would be offering a competitor better equipment than for their own cameras. Nikon sensors have always been the best in digital photography in terms of IQ and I expect this still to be the case with the Z9.
Thank you for " confirming" Soy will continue to make small camera, so I feel I made the right choice pre-ordered the Z9. and also want to say thanks to Canon still making camera with good ergonomics and comfortable to shoot with.
Even ignoring what you write about Nikon, an a9III leveraging the sensor of the Z9 with better AF would be near identical in specs to the a1 with better AF than the a1.
Just out of curiosity, were you sober when you designed this brilliant product roadmap for Sony?
your proof is every bit as ridiculous as your original statement. Linking to a rumor site earning money from clickbait articles with zero credibility and a giant track record of false reporting is literally the worst you can do to try to prove your point.
I am a Sony user for my own subjective reasons (just brand preference, really), and I take issue with people like you proliferating the stereotype of the rabid Sony fanatic. I will never upvote a comment as uninformed as yours. "Source article", wow.
Funny Valentine links to sonyalpharumours, infamous for having the worst accuracy of all the rumour websites. A guy who has proven time after time to have absolutely zero regard for integrity. He writes that the Z9 sensor is a Sony patent “according to a reliable source”. Oh yeah? That would be enormous news which would mean that Nikon is blatantly lying.
Also strange how Nikon sensors perform better than Sony sensors with regards to sharpness and dynamic range.
It’s at least entertaining to see how the panic is spreading on the Sony forums.
Einride: that's not true at all, the Nikon Z6II has a lower DR than the Sony a7III. DXOmarks measured it, the Z6II is at 14.4 stops and the a7III is at 14.7 stops. Source: - https://www.dxomark.com/nikon-z6-ii-sensor-review-familiar-sensor-performance/ - https://www.dxomark.com/sony-a7-iii-low-light-performer/ Sony makes both sensors and Sony has a huge advantage with their processors and programming, they can optimise the sensor they make to the maximum. On the other hand Nikon has to reverse engineer the programming for the sensors they buy from Sony.
All latest Nikon sensors are made by Sony. Of course they don't want to admit that they buying it, it's very bad for marketing. Though all latest teardowns are clearly show that all Nikon cameras are utilizing Sony sensors, even top notch, like D850 was. And guess what? Nikon also claimed that in D850 it was their own sensor. Until teardown revealed that it have Sony marking on it. Well, I guess, now Nikon (and their fans) could claim what they want and upvote each other, but the reality is that Nikon actively buying sensors from Sony for a past decade, and this sensor is basically identical to what we see in A1, so it's a clearly 100% chance that it's also developed by Sony (and probably algorithms are made by Nikon themselves but who made chip is the big question). Face the reality. Now nearly everybody buys sensors from Sony, even Canon started to doing that. Sony is clearly leader of the market of photo sensors, so everybody are bying from them. Completely normal for tech industry.
@Liam Williams: exactly. Nikon "designed" the resolution of the sensor and that`s all. The rest is the same tech as the A1 sensor, all the differences (bit faster readout, bit better low light performance) come from the lower resolution of the Z9 sensor.
But I mean, it is no shame, that Nikon wants and gets the best possible sensor into their best camera. Why does this hurt so much for the Nikon fans?
Sony makes to spec. Nikon designs their own. Has Sony sensor fab sign a non-compete and Sony sensor fab makes it to spec. Nikon also makes the stepper machines that Sony sensor fab uses to make the sensors. So perhaps we should give credit to Nikon for Sony sensors too, based on your reasoning the other way. You’re not wrong in the sense that upon tear down you might see Sony markings on the sensor, but all that says is what factory it came from, not who designed it or holds a patent on its specific design.
You guys just don’t know what U are talking about.
Sony semi conductors is a totally separate entity from Sony cameras. They have cross patent agreements with Nikon. Sony semi conductor is both a chip IP creator and a fab. The fact that Sony manufactured some sensors for Nikon means nothing about IP ownership.
More globally speaking Sony lenses use glass made by a Nikon subsidiary. It doesn’t make them Nikon lenses. Sony semi is also a customer of Nikon steppers division.
So Sony and Nikon are close companies with very complex interactions as is often the case in Japan.
Good lord, what a collection of nonsense, lies, and preposterousness.
Nikon designs their own sensors. Yes, Sony Semi (a separate legal entity) makes them but that's because Sony Semi is amazing and makes fabulous sensors for almost everyone. Sony Camera designs their own sensors, and presumably Sony Semi makes them too. Does is matter to any of this that Sony Semi uses Nikon hardware to make the sensors? Not one bit.
There is zero evidence that the Z9's sensor is simply the A1's, namely because they have very different pixel counts. But no, that kind of simple comparison is beyond this collection of clowns.
Again DPR, we have to have the ability to mute these people.
And there we are,y comment means more so I'll ask the site owners to 'mute' the opinions of others.
One of the biggest problems with this world right there.
And yeah, the OP is wrong, imo, but he's entitled to have an opinion and be corrected with data and rational discussion, not by cancelling, I mean, muting.
Sad to see people turned into such snowflakes asking for censorship when talking about electronics and gadgets.
If you're offended by questioning Nikon's sensors origins, don't reply to my comment and ignore the discussion.
BTW you can criticise Sony as much as you want, as a Sony user I won't get offended because I don't care about multi billion dollar corporations , and I won't ask for your censorship.
"hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men and weak men create hard times"
Of course you somehow conflate my desire to never have to deal with the worthlessness of your trolling with an attack on freedom of expression, nevermind that applies to what government entities can do, not companies nor other citizens.
We can already mute those unworthy of notice in the fora. I ask for the same here so I needn't deal your trolling.
Do try to follow along with the adults. You're embarrassing yourself.
Fuhteng, it was you that made the horrendous request to remove the OP's ability to voice his opinions here.
Take the hint to change your behaviour, don't double down on this, apologise for what is a mistake and you'll be taking the high road. I, and I'm sure others, will respect that. It was only last week another commenter did that and it was very well received.
Cancel culture is absolutely disgusting, I hope it's just a mistake you made and we can all respect you for realising it.
I don't know about the image quality, but neither Canon nor Nikon understood the mirrorless body thing. Mirrorless body had claims of being "small" when they first came out. Is this body small now? Big like old mirrored DSLRs. What's the point of being mirrorless body now? Why don't they make smaller bodies like Sony?
You are missing the point of mirrorless if you think small and light is the only advantage. And btw, the R3 is much smaller and lighter than equivalent DSLR and the R5 is much smaller and lighter than equivalent 5D.
This grip weight thing needs to put to rest...when you put a humongous battery into the R3, it is heavy where as the A1 can use 1 or 2 light weight batteries in its grip.
fully loaded R3 is 1020 g with battery & memory card. while sony A1 is 1020g with grip + 1 NP-FZ100 battery. if you put second battery on A1 , actually canon R3 is a bit lighter.
Because Sony cameras sacrifice ergonomics (and "style", I would say) for size. Many people are happy with that tradeoff. Yet, it can't be a coincidence that almost all MILC manufacturers have stuck to the DSLR form factor. Why? Because we've been making cameras sort of like that for a century, which is a long time to work out the kinks.
And obviously, MILCs have genuine advantages other than size to offer. Which is a good thing, once you put those telephoto lenses on them...
If I remember right those pro cameras from yesteryear were about the same size as an A1, from film to DSLR's they got the bloat because of inefficient electronics. disclaimer: I am not talking about Speed Graphics
Folks can literally make the same comment about those whom prefer the Pro Body style type of Canon an or Nikon, R3 or Z9. Putting an grip on an Sony hardly gives it the same ergonomics of the Nikon or Canon. You can only mimic that style by having to pay for the additional cost of an grip, but essentially you really aren't duplicating it.
Olympus said that 12 years ago. As marketing spin. And then 2 years ago they came out with a built in grip m4/3 monstrosity of a camera that is the OM-D1X. Canon and Nikon never made those claims. But as it turns out, their Z6/7 is smaller than the any of their non-gripped DSLRs. Their Z9 is 20% smaller than the D6. Their 14-24 & 24-70 2.8 are smaller than their F mount versions. So ya, just about everything is smaller and/or better.
I don't see how the "point" of mirrorless is being "small" - surely the only claim can be that its "slim". Its only the removal of a mirror after all. The one thing Nikon are leading on is the slimness of cameras - especially with their narrow flange and now completely removal of mechanical shutter. I think they planned the whole mirrorless concept really well.
A Sony with optional grip will never be as weather sealed as something like a Canon R3 or Nikon Z9. Look at how Mortimer Hilmer used the Z9 in arctic conditions. I have not seen anyone demonstrate that level of weather sealing with the A1, much less with A1 plus grip.
Also, someone commented about how Sony processors are more efficient. I would say that the Nikon EXPEED 7 is a more powerful, efficient processor than Sony Bionz XR. Nikon in the Z9 manages to get about the same performance from a single EXPEED 7 as Sony achieves with dual Bionz XR processors in the A1. Also this Canon uses a single Digic X, albeit it does have lower resolution to process.
I for one hesitated to move to Mirrorless completely even I like the ML technologies and all the technical benefits associated with that because I have to give up the 1D/D4 style body, I don't want to give up the comfortable handling and ergo of the traditional pro DSLR bodies, I did try though, tried it out with 7R II and now 7R IV and proved that style body is just not for me, therefore now I am " back to" R3/Z9, just wish I can get my order sooner.
The size isn't a significant attraction for everyone. Personally, if I'd purchase a mirrorless camera it would be for things like some of the more advanced focusing features and additional info in viewfinder. I don't really care much if the camera body is a bit smaller or nor.
Obviously YMMV, just reminding that different people have different priorities.
The size argument tents in general to go nowhere because it strongly falls into personal choice.
From a factual perspective, a smaller modular body offers more flexibility for the more general audience, while for ultimate use, the monolithic approach might be better for a few.
At a preference level, some prefer giving up the flexibility for what they consider more comfortable to hold, while others prefer what the portability has to offer over a relatively more comfortable device in the hands. I personally I think that the A1+a pinky extension is quite comfortable to use, but it is fair that some will rather have something larger in their hands.
I think it's the combination. When you can get a smaller size but the same quality, it can be a great asset. For me, traveling with mirrorless cameras is much easier than with 1D and 5D bodies I had in the past.
Before the A7 series, I was considering getting a second APS system just for travel. At the time the X-Pro was a great option.
But with the A7II offering more quality than my 5dII and being a great alternative to the 5DIII, the size did make a difference.
It's simplistic to assert that mirrorless must mean smaller. That is one way to use the technology but not the only way. And sure, some like smaller, but some like the larger style of body.
And really, given that Canon and Nikon have caught up with Sony mirrorless tech and in some cases gone beyond, the main differentiator now for Sony is the smaller size. So it doesn't surprise me to see them push that.
But it's a lack of imagination to believe that only the smaller camera body has merit.
@Thoughts R Us "It's simplistic to assert that mirrorless must mean smaller". That is not what people are saying, but rather that ML offers the opportunity to make the camera smaller and lighter, and that is a quality not to underestimate in a camera and silly to overlook. And that, is imo hard to argue against.
@armandino: The OP literally asserted that "What's the point of being mirrorless body now? Why don't they make smaller bodies like Sony?"
And also "but neither Canon nor Nikon understood the mirrorless body thing. Mirrorless body had claims of being "small" when they first came out. Is this body small now?"
The OP sure stated that mirrorless must mean smaller.
And yes, I get that to many the small size is an advantage. But many prefer a larger sized body for various reasons already articulated many times over in these forums.
My only point is that contra the OP, mirrorless doesn't have to mean a certain small size. The mirrorless tech can be used in bodies of differing sizes.
Yep. All mirrorless means is no mirror. The sensor can act as mirror, so use the sensor and EVF instead.
I remember the same debate when cameras went digital. All these people spoke about the end of the classic camera format, now that we’re no longer shackled with the need to house and transport film. Remember all those stupid ass digital cameras with the most awful ergonomics? - “look ma! No film!!”. Then surprise surprise it went back to the old shape and size.
@ candasulas you say>>>>I don't know about the image quality, but neither Canon nor Nikon understood the mirrorless body thing..... Why don't they make smaller bodies like Sony?<<<< Well sony is learning about the "body thing" as every new sony body is bigger than the last one https://camerasize.com/compact/#815,883,852,ha,f
@42 bit TIFF "Because ergonomics and balance. Once you put a big pro zoom, the size difference in body legit goes away." Keep on seeing this myth being carried over and over. Simply not true. I mean, somewhat true if you stick a 10 years old lens balanced to fit a 1.3kg body in front of it. This is from someone who I am pretty sure knows it well. "Also, Sony's ergo is legit trash" great hyperbole to nullify any potential value could have possibly been there.
That also goes for the size, materials, and tactility of the buttons and dials.
Fanatics of these brands just muddy waters. We should be helping each other with these differences. Many of them seemingly minor that make a large difference in the enjoyment of photography.
Sony horrid buffer and write speeds were never mentioned. You buy one coming from a Canon and think the Sony is broken. Locked up, stuttering.
Real pros and cons to all brands, paper specs dont tell.
@42 bit TIFF I use my A1 with, and handhold: Canon EF400II Canon 300/2.8 Canon EF200/2.0 Sony 200-600 Canon 100-400II Sony 70/200/2.8 Sigma 105/1.4 Sigma 35/1.2 Sigma 20/1.4 As I said before, all you need is a $35 100gr pinky extension to get a great grip on the A1 with large lenses. I previously owned: 1DX 1DSIII 1DSII 1DIV 1DII Average yearly photo count: 300K-500K. Mostly with large lenses. I feel I do have a saying here. how about you?
No I havnt tried Sonys highest end 7k$ camera yet. It doesnt count either in a meaningful way to the masses and you know better than to do what you did.
Ever tried anything other than the a1? It is much more meaningful. a6x and a7x is what most people own.
@42 bit TIFF Not any worse than when I attach my R5 to them :-) I think any added weight makes it exponentially worse to hold onto hours. I notice the difference when I use the A1 with a grip, which I have on only if I do extensive vertical shots (i.e. studio settings )
The next Sony will be exactly "that" much larger probably. Little bit by bit though so that the fans dont cry about it.
Canon realized they could make an ergonomic camera smaller than a 5D, Sony realizing that an ergonomic camera is larger than the last one they made. They will all land at a similar size eventually.
armandino, I was speaking to the fans being fans. There are minor issues that can be very large in real use the fans dont want to admit to instead of us all helping each other.
These forums always had Nikon vs Canon crap but nothing like it is now with the Sony fans. It is another level of fanaticism.
Its just very bad across all the brands now. Although it seems the Pentax owners are just out taking photos instead of chatting/trolling here.
My buffering comment comes from a major one that shocked me when I bought a Sony. Even if you liked the ergos and buttons somehow, how could you not come here to complain about the buffering/write stutter/lock-ups?
Did you read the rest though? The last 4 years bad, the first 16 good.
Know a better board?
They all have gone the same.
Imaging-resource, the other great review site is basically finished. People apparently dont want excellent reviews anymore. DPR changed with the times. Less substance, more instant.(still decent and consistent though) Get people commenting.
Is there a 'mirrorless group' that specified your referenced size mandate? Mirrorless is about...being mirrorless, having an EVF, and the advantages that come with it (which has made DSLRs effectively obsolete for new product development). Any mandate for size is only an artificial construct.
How about the disadvantages of mirrorless, have to add those.
I would like to see the keeper rate D6 vs Z9.
We already know the D850 has a higher keeper rate than the Z 7 series.
There is not much room for improvement in the OVF scene, because of cost though also. Mirrorless will be the future even if only because they are cheaper to build. There is a lot of room to improve as well.
Too many people here seem to think Canon had to make the R3 this size, instead of very purposely wanting it to be exactly the size and shape it is. Odd and clueless folks.
@SteveAnderson "Too many people here seem to think Canon had to make the R3 this size, instead of very purposely wanting it to be exactly the size and shape it is." It is possible although I seriously doubt that Canon users would like both top two bodies, the R3 very likely the R1 this bulky. Facts are that Canon had no choice one way or another because a camera of this caliber would have had inadequate battery life for its audience with a CIPA around 350
@SteveAnderson what I am saying is that Canon had no choice, maybe they still liked and wanted to go down that path, but the fact is that Canon had no choice :-) What cameras do you shoot Steve? Do you have an R5?
Yes I understood what you meant. I do not think Canon decided 3yrs ago that they would be forced into this body style because of a battery.
Perhaps they did not develop a better battery because they did not need to because of this design. That is different though.
Their chips do seem to eat more juice. There are more than one reasons for that also though. Their EVF probably uses more power by not dropping resolution, etc...
I am not loyal to Canon. I am just anti-fanatic.
I use many cameras from many brands, month long testing. But I own a 7Dm2 and 5Dm2.
@SteveAnderson I have both Canon and Sony system, recently I was to make a choice between the R3 and the A1. My more expensive glass is Canon, not Sony, I have no reason to take one side. I do have an R5 which is not a good battery performer, and it gets even worse if shooting e-shutter vs m-shutter. I need two batteries to make a single soccer game. My A9 is ridiculously good on battery, I simply do not think Canon is quite there in this regard. I genuinely believe that the future is in smaller modular camera bodies. They simply open up more creative opportunities. I use to shoot weddings with two 1D bodies on my hips, loved the weight, even for travel photography. My best street photography images are with a 1DX+70-200/2.8. Call me nuts. Times have changed, but not many pros have quite seen it happening yet, mostly because the revolution did not start from one of the main pro camera manufacturers. We will see.
I wasnt calling you a fanatic, sorry if it looked that way.
My best street photos would be with that combo also haha. I want an R5/5D body with a portrait orientated sensor. Get a grip if I want to shoot landscape orientation.
Yes the future is still waiting to happen. Of course we guess correctly occasionally with educated or insightful guesses.
Instead of tank track immunity strong builds, maybe the camera will flatten like a squishy pancake to survive.
I would prefer this R3 body if I was very serious. Much more than an attachable grip that creaks, squeaks, and not durable. You must know that from owning 1D models and imagine it being important to others if not yourself.
But then again, people like shiny new toasters with blue LEDs. Not caring so much they do not toast bread as well as the older models. My faith in the masses is very low.
@SteveAnderson no worries, I did not mean I felt like you addressed me that way. I just like to have more personable conversations and it makes sense to have each other's backgrounds. It helps understanding the other's point of view. The fact is that I do not really use the grip much at all. The little pinky extension actually makes a very monolithic connection to the body. Besides shooting a lot with heavy lenses for extended time where every gram counts, I also shoot a lot with compact lenses (but not necessarily light, such as the sigma 20/1.4, or 50/1.2) and holding the camera with one hand only at arm length looking though the display. This offers the ability of avoiding EVF tunnel view and being aware of the context. Sometime at events I hold a remote flash with a diffuser with my left hand positioning where it is best suited instead of having it on the hot shoe. Some of this stuff is really hard to do with a larger body.
Yes, if you have invested in Canon it hardly makes financial sense to switch over.
Also A1 plus grip plus extra battery approaches $7000, and so that should be the baseline for Sony. If you want their best performance, add in about another $1000 for two CFExpress A cards plus card reader. So A1 can easily go to $8000.
And if you want best performance to come close to A1 or Z9 in canon you need to wait until the rumored R1 shows up someday. Maybe. Right now it’s priceless.
Actually the R3 matches the A1/Z9 in most regards except for resolution. If one can live with 24MP and 6K video, then the R3 is easily at that level.
Funny how resolution became the be all to end all in judging a camera at this level. It's almost like Sony fans are trying to dictate the terms of debate in what really matters to end users.
Z9 has shown these recent prices are all overblown. Of course the market decides but the R5 shouldnt be so excessively more expensive than any other 5D release.
R6 also too much for what it is. a1 needs to adjust because of Z9 also. All excellent cameras but need price adjustments.
Mirrorless doesnt cost more, less in physical parts. The D850 is an overall better camera than Z7.
No one would be OK with a D850 mark II coming out for 6k$. Doesnt make sense for mirrorless charging this much.
it's quite likely R1 will be $8K, but that's exactly the same price for my 1DS MK II back in 2004, so it's still not a bad deal for what the R1 can do in comparison, if factor in inflation and all that, camera price actually going down quite a bit, what you can buy with $8K in 2004 and 2021 is huge different.
@Thoughts R Us 50MP means you have a high performance FF and crop sensor camera both in one body for photo and video. That is the heck of an advantage over the R3.
@armandino: I readily acknowledged the resolution difference. But that is it. That's the only difference. To some that is important. But if that is all that matters to everyone, then I guess every 24 MP camera should be taken off of the market, and for that matter anything less than 40 MP.
The R3 gets to the level of the A1 in every parameter except resolution. The resolution will matter to some but not to all.
And funny how I still see at major sporting events the majority of photographers using cameras with 20 MP or less.
@Thoughts R Us "I readily acknowledged the resolution difference. But that is it. That's the only difference." Indeed, I just corrected you with: "one HECK of one difference". Both in terms of outcome as a photographer and in terms of technical achievement. Let's not forget that the R3 readout is slower than the A1 at half of the pixel count. Always downplaying what does not work in your argument favour, eh? Good old TRU
"They are simply 1.5 to 2 years behind and their shooters will be at a significant disadvantage in the most prestigious sports venues of the world."
LOL. I guess they are at a disadvantage now using 20MP or less with 1DX bodies, because that's all I see at sporting events on TV.
Probably next year Canon will answer with their R1, which will have all the bells and whistles but with higher MP, and probably leapfrog the competition.
But let's face reality: it will take time for any of these cameras to get into widespread use by the sports pro's. And the pro's have been working with lower MP and less fps burst rates and doing just fine. The pro's don't obsess over all of these spec wars.
Just for perspective on how the spec wars are for consumers, not pro's..., here is what a sports pro wrote on another forum, re top burst speeds: "If you can’t shoot sports at 10 FPS then you can’t shoot sports. In my entire career shooting for SI etc I never had faster than 8 FPS. At the peak of SI when the most iconic images were made, it was 4-6 FPS. And for sports like basketball, it’s 1 FPS because you’re shooting strobes."
Tough to say but unlikely it's related to heat. Heat tends to affect long exposures by increase dark current noise, but short exposures are generally unaffected by heat within normal operating conditions. Possible that in mechanical shutter the R3 is using a slower readout mode to reduce electronic noise but that's purely a guess, in any case the difference is very small.
thank you for the excellent video again, you hit the point, Canon with new RF just almost double the prices and you do not get what you are really paying for. Unfortunately, this "Volkswagen" is trying the "Mercedes" segment ...
IOW for stills we have reached the point of diminishing returns. Who knew that the R6 sensor, objectively compared to the heroes of the new generation, would come out as a peer?
The R3 is a stacked sensor. It took Sony 4 years to get a performance-optimized architecture to approach a IQ optimized architecture. I think that Canon actually did quite well in their first.
@steelhead3 what I am saying is that it takes time to optimize for IQ a sensor primarily designed for readout speed and Sony has already walked that path. Many seem to have high expectations from IQ of the R3 and Z9 but reality might disappoint them. That is all.
Mike, resolution is not the be all to end all of IQ.
Sure if one needs extra resolution, the Z9 will outperform the R3, and the A9/A9II for that matter.
But if not, then the IQ will be very similar. What's the problem? Do you think that resolution alone determines IQ?
I still maintain that if you take the same image with R3, Z9 and A1, and let me add that you do not need the extra resolution to crop aggressively, then yes, no one will be able to tell them apart.
The Canon shooters who bought 5DR bodies and called it a revolutionary medium format experience back in the day didn’t seem to think that 50mp vs 24mp was a small deal…
PL exactly. The reality is the image quality on the A1 is excellent. And the Z9 should be as well. Sure. Excellent also on the R3. And all other things the same (including noise performance) the 45-50MP bodies will destroy the 24MP bodies in every case. I know this very well shooting a 24 and 50MP body side by side.
@MikeRan TRU really seem to ignore that when you punch in 1.5x, the A1 resolution is a match for the R3. A virtual 1.5X tele extender built-in, without the optical flaws of a tele extender. Funny how he downplays such a relevant fact.
No camera is really "destroying" any other these days. What we have is near parity in IQ (and almost certainly invisible in the vast bulk of print applications). The differentiators being resolution (for those needing it) and handling, speed and dual vs. single card etc. So for those with a modest budget, an R6 (and I would argue an R) is giving up nothing in IQ to the latest budget busting queens of the camera world. The plain fact is that 20fps and/or 60p/4k is not on that many people's "must have" list.
Yet the gap of spec btwn the top Nikon vs the top Canon is far larger now than it ever was before. Think of resolution as a crop enabler or as digital zoom done well.
If you add to that the tremendous value delivered by lenses such as the 120-300mm f2.8, soon to be released 400mm f2.8 with tele converter, 70-200mm f2.8 accepting tele converters, 500mm f5.6 PF or upcoming 800mm f6.3 TF then it seems clear that the Nikon system is far more suitable for top level action photography. It’s not even close really.
Yet all this "difference" is spec sheet froth. Make prints. A mad crop is no substitute for a properly framed image. Ever.
The basic argument everyone uses for a severe crop or a giant exposure correction (thus taxing the DR) is they failed at the initial capture and are performing CYA photography. Implicit in those arguments is that the viewer will not notice the perspective problem of being in the wrong place for the image or that in a huge exposure push the image will be sized to web versions and thus the IQ degradation will be invisible. This also assumes that the viewer is unsophisticated enough to miss the IQ issues.
Therefore what is the point? A fortune in gear to ensure that ones inevitable errors will be beaten into submission for the clueless denizens of the web?
@Photomonkey "A mad crop is no substitute for a properly framed image. Ever..... mmm... no, What sort of photography are you talking about? I.e. in sports the use of a 1.4x tele extender is very common. If you punch in either while shooting or even better, if you have time and space, in post, you are far better off because 1) you do not need to get the thing in and out 2) no extra glass to deteriorate your IQ 3) you do not degrade the AF speed 4) you can recompose in post 5) if you crop in post you have the peripheral view of the action The sole fact that Canon and other brands make expensive zooms with a built-in tele extender proves you wrong. Try to make your argument among bird photographers, they will laugh at your face.
@Photomonkey "or a giant exposure correction (thus taxing the DR) is they failed at the initial capture and are performing CYA photography" When you shoot in harsh lighting and you have no way to use flash or choose the lighting conditions, you have a DR problem. If you are a sport or a wildlife photographer, you would know better. I give you an example: a soccer stadium where I shoot a lot, the west side of it casts a shadow to introduce, in sunny days, split conditions where part of the field is in the shade, some is in the sun. Tell me how you solve the issue of getting the exposure right for the dark player in the shade and the white jersey in the sun, in the same image. Believe me, this is a common issue.
Sports is predictable, most of the time, nature is unpredictable almost all the time. Look either you can get more reach with your lens or crop madder and the former is more difficult technical wise, you can't just buy and bring a 1200mm lens to go deep in the woods, talk about clueless.
I am pretty sure we already know what we need to know. I find these shootouts do not bring much new to the table, pretty obvious and conservative remarks.
The shootouts are just for fun. It's like when a show like Top Gear compares high end sports cars from the likes of Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc.
And the shootouts are really for those with no intention of buying. Anyone who buys one of these high end cameras knows what they want and why.
Again, it's like those high end car shootouts. No one seriously in the market for a high end car like a Ferrari or Porsche or Lambo is going to buy based on a shootout. In fact those who buy those cars probably never watch any of the shootouts.
For now the Z9 seems to be recording about 10 times more pre-orders than the R3.
Which is probably the result of a combination of factors: - many Canon DSLR owners have already bought R5s - the R3 is only targeting the 1DxIiI crowd without offering a huge value to them - on the lens front Canon offers nothing on the RF mount of value for existing super tele users. Their 400 and 600 are basically identical. This is particularly painful compared to the Nikon 400mm f2.8 with TC that is credible candidate to replace both 400 and 600 with one lens. - a large fraction of Canon DSLR owners already jumped ship to Sony, for sure a much larger fraction than Nikon DSLR users who are mostly still happily shooting their D850s
The irony of shooting a camera with AMAZINGLY sharp lenses, the best IS in the industry, and sheer day-to-day usability PERFECTION ... with a mere Canon, that in that very clip, lost focus on Chris' eyes - has not missed us 4/3 lovers! ;-)
The eye AF sounds pretty ropey. Absolutely no surprise there; Canon simply doesn't have the R and D funds and developers needed to make a feature like that reliable enough. Not sure if it's really needed though. How hard is it to just point the camera at your subject and press AF-on?
Canon flat out said that it doesn't work as well for subjects with light colored irises, it's no surprise that Jordan and his wife are having difficulty.
LOL. Commenting on Canon's R&D budget, like one really knows that.
The reality is that the eye control AF was developed by Canon using technology developed by their medical division, tech that is used in high end equipment for ophthalmologists for testing eyes.
And according to reports, the ECAF works for extremely well. But there will be some exceptions, and one should expect that. It's like any facial or fingerprint recognition system: generally they work well, but sometimes it's difficult for the user to register properly.
Comments like this makes me want to never visit this website again. So Canon develops a complex and useful feature no one else has and people say Canon does not innovate or have R&D people. Amazing!
"Canon simply doesn't have the R and D funds and developers needed to make a feature like that reliable enough"
Yeah, you basically said that without having a clue how difficult to perfectly implement a feature like this might be. From what i read it works reliably for most people with some exceptions.
Exactly. I didn't say they that Canon doesn't innoate, nor did I say that Canon does not have R and D people. I said they don't have enough funding or developers to truly make something like this work properly. Stop misrepresenting me please.
Leapfrogging game now is a threesome party, not a twosome anymore. Z9 looks Iike the current champ if everything is taken into account, R3 looks like a placeholder, A1 is potentially great but with some limitations and excessive price, who’ll be next, Canon or Sony?
I am not sure why the Z9 would be considered the champ. I think this is more of a preference battle than anything else. Maybe Canon is a bit at disadvantage with resolution, but this is the R3, we do not know anything about the R1. I do not see much imitations in the A1, I would agree it is pricey.
A1 is only overpriced because Nikon undercut in price, whether every Z9 is sold at a loss, who knows but it happens. its an ecosystem, it doesn't stop with just the body. If you were to compare the 3 bodies, one could say R3 is the overpriced one.
@Djehuty The A1 is a fantastic camera yet I still think it is overpriced. Sure it has a lot of novelty that people around here seem to ignore, such as an insane powerhouse in a incredibly compact body with excellent heat dissipation and power management (fantastic battery life for the performance). The newly designed mechanical shutter I am sure did not come in cheap and so the sensor R&D and the top of the line EVF. Still I feel that at its price point should have had a few extras, such as a two axis tilt screen, more rugged battery door and rubber flaps, and a bit more custom designed body without sharp edges which do not cope best with wear and holding in the hands.
Also to optimize A1 performance one needs to buy 2 very expensive CFExpress A cards, plus an expensive card reader. That adds up to about another $1000.
Overall, the Z9 seems to out do the A1 and at a less expensive price point, and with greater durability.
The Z9 is the cheapest because they cut some corners to hit a price point. The EVF is not competitive, they did not include a mechanical shutter, and it is gigantic and heavy. This is not a criticism, just an observation. Fujifilm did some similar things with the GFX100S and I love that camera. It was strategic because ultimately Nikon had to keep their DSLR professionals with the brand.
I think for Nikon it was a smart move, but let us not pretend that there is a clear winner in this space. The A1 seems to be the most advanced but some clearly want a large body with integrated vertical grip, and it is the most expensive.
Ultimately I think everyone will just stay in there ecosystem with these cameras. Most of the Nikon DSLR shooters who were going to leave have already left. There is no compelling reason for anyone needing a fast stacked sensor camera to leave their ecosystem now, unless it is lens related.
TRU you should really stop talking about the A1 performance seeing as you’ve only tried it in a camera shop. You do NOT need expensive cards. You do not need fully charged batteries. The A1 will shoot 30FPS RAW with a cheap 512GB v30 card on an almost dead battery.
Correction to @CTMRIguy and his assertion re Z9 that "The EVF is not competitive,"
Wrong. The Z9 may have the best EVF experience of any and if anything may be the most sophisticated. It's wrong to judge it just by the dots of resolution alone. Read the DPR article on it.
Nikon has the best mirrorless architecture at the moment, that’s why it’s fair to assess that the Z9 is the current leader.
There is also compelling reasons to think it’s also the best focusing camera, but we’ll need to test that.
On top of that they also have the most future proof mount.
If I were to invest from scratch today in mirrorless Nikon is objectively the obvious choice these days, Sony a close second and Canon a distant third.
Unfortunately one camera doesn't make a whole ecosystem, Z-mount doesn't have much going for it outside of its own native glass and cameras, if that's all you're going for, sure but if you're doing more than stills then its more of a toss up with Nikon being the weakest of the three. Bottomline, it depends.
It is the same cheap 3.69M Sony EVF that everyone else is using in budget-to-mid-tier cameras, just driven harder for higher peak brightness (which could result in longevity issues for an OLED panel).
Just relax a bit. Noone has yet bought and recieved the Z9 or R3. The A1 has been in trade for about 8 months. For now there is (A)1 player :-D (But everyone has the right to dream. R1, Z8 etc)
Most sport shooters use jpg and the Z9 does 30 fps in jpg.
Most sport shooters, according to Canon lovers at least, also hate having to deal with a huge amount of data for storage and selection. So they rarely use 30 fps anyways.
But… since you have selected the one aspect where the Z9 is behind as the only criteria to select the winner, do you agree that the Z9 would be at the top if it did 30 fps in lossy compressed raw?
Because there is a high probability that it will do just that in a firmware upgrade early 2022.
Of course a more realistic way to compare the cameras is to look at actual AF performance, image quality, mount potential, EVF experience, lag, battery life, ruggedness,… and overall it seems to favor the Z9.
And I am not even speaking about lens quality, available native options. The 200mm f2.0, 120-300mm f2.8, Z 400mm f2.8 with TC, 500mm f5.6 PF are all essential reasons to prefer Nikon for actual photography.
“Because there is a high probability that it will do just that in a firmware upgrade early 2022.”
Any basis or evidence for that claim or are you guessing?
And when you talk about native lenses the way you do it means you don’t know what “native lenses” mean. (Only one is native and it’s not available.) And instead your brand bias is shining brighter than the content of your comment.
I am not at liberty to cite my source but just wait if you don’t believe me.
Ok, native was not accurate. I should have written F mount lenses with native focusing performance. Because all reports confirm that the 200mm f2.0 focus faster on the Z9 than on the D6. If you have used the D6 you’ll know how incredibly fast it is. Per my own comparison faster than the a9II but I didn’t compare the exact same lens so it’s to be taken with a grain of salt.
Your source likely either violated an NDA in telling you, or you have no idea anymore than the rest of us.
If you ask me since we are wildly speculating there is a bit transfer rate limitation which keeps the camera from being able to get 12 or 14 bit data off the sensor fast enough and the JPGs are generated from 10-bit or even 8-bit readout to achieve the 30 FPS. And this will not be fixed with firmware.
photography-lover, first, the Z9 needs to be out...
Only then can we test the AF performance, image quality, EVF experience, lag, battery life...
And mount potential or roughness? Are you willing to break a Z9 to see how far it will go? And do you have any clue about what is needed to create a lens to be able to assess mount potential?
Right now, the Z9 is clearly behind with the limited jpeg only 30fps...
In reality there are no material weakness in any of the 3 main systems. Just pick your poison and get out there and produce something cool. Here is some inspiration (in this case Nikon but it could equally be Canon or whatever). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJhQk7M78PE
I personally find 30 fps overkill for 99.9 % of situations. It just adds image review time with limited value over 20 fps.
And if I need it for that 0.1% then jog will be fine. Knowing again that I feel the Z9 will have 30 fps compressed raw before the end of the ski season. The bandwidth isn’t more than 8K 60p raw.
Knowing also that I will have the option to use 120 fps in jpg for breakthrough ability to capture an instant. That really is different from 20 fps. And nobody else does it.
oops the obvious is coming out. Great camera, more niche that the Nikon and Sony offer, thus too expensive for 24MP. Glad to see that common sense is showing Also, Canon seems to be learning that the staked sensor takes some work to perform as well as a conventional sensor in the IQ department. I am curious to see how the Z9 will stack up against the A1 in this regard.
@Mr Bolton I disagree, at the same price point or more expensive it is simply a disadvantage when the camera can handle the larger file size just as easily.
@DavitorR5 Think about it: the A1 has the same resolution of the R3 in crop mode. It is like having a 1.5x built in tele extender all the time that you can enable at the push of a button. I think you "ended the story" a bit too early.
Finger crossed for those famous brand zealot IDs to come and fight against each other. Can't wait to see the number of comments under this article reaches 500.
I don't understand flash sync at 200...all top end cameras have for the last number of years chose 250. Could this be a less expensive shutter that Canon figures won't be used that often?
there some let down from the R3 in this video for me first , unconfident AF while shooting video in good light. R5 & R6 doesn't suffer from this unless the subject was deep in the shadow. so why? so hope next firmware update? second , Eye Control Focusing is still limited to certain eye characteristic. third, the overheating. it's been said that when the camera overheat the card is extremely hot. that's because of extensive amount of data transfered to the card. that's what canon get by putting 1.8 Gbps bitrate on their 4K 120fps, its just ridiculous. why dont canon give reasonable bitrate for their video . sony can manage 200 Mbps for their 8k 30 which have same amount of pixel processed in a second as 4K 120 fps. canon definitely didnt need to follow sony, but at least give options for more reasonable bitrate for shooting video, maybe like 600-800 Mbps options for 4K 120fps. not only it safe more storage space but also prolong video shooting due to less heat excess from cfexpress.
Video compression also consumes a lot of power which leads to heat. And it sounds like 6K60 doesn't have the same issue, clearly they think 4K120 is a specialty mode for very short bursts with maximum bitrate. Since you have more resolution to play with in 6K60 mode I'd also look into doing smart frame interpolation to 120FPS + downscale to 4K120 as an alternative. It might end up looking just as good for many clips.
Weird, I see better high iso performance from the Canon R3 in comparison to the R6 and Panasonic S5. The grain pattern looks finer, more organic more evenly distributed. Furthermore, I don´t understand why you haven´t incorporated the Sony A1 into this comparison? Yes, it has a denser sensor with more mpx but it´s in the exact same class of the R3, unlike the camera you did your comparison with.
Key word is "Rumor". Vaporware, just like everything else about the R1 right now. The only way I see them going under $5000 is if they hack and slash the price of the R3 to under $4500 next year before the R1 comes out. And I don't remember any camera every dropping that fast, especially while the world economy has so much delay and trouble meeting demand.
You're asking what the price difference is between a 23MP sensor and a 45+ MP sensor? Let's use Canon's R5 and R6 as an example. "Just adding 8K" to the camera is a $1400 jump in price. Like I said. The R3 will have to drop a lot for Canon to position the R1 above it.
I'm unimpressed. This seemed a lot more impressive before the Z9 was unveiled for significantly less money. Even the neatest feature, the eye AF, isn't working well for everyone.
I completely agree. I'm a Nikon user and will remain so for the foreseeable future, but these idiotic brand wars grow tiresome. Its time to put Nikon and Sony fanboys (girls) in timeout.
@42 bit TIFF: Most photographers who use these camera's are professionals and they really care **** about what Nikon or Sony brings out. They use a camera system with a professional service (for many many years) which they will not switch for any new Cano, Nikon or Sony. They really don't care and they really don't need.
All those posting saying it’s not “Pro” without the servicing and backup pro’s expect must have missed the news reports about various agencies switching to Sony to get the camera AND the backup organisation Sony is rolling out. Which in reality is nothing new for Sony as they have done it for years in the pro video field.
The end of the mech shutter has already arrived, Nikon Z9. And curved sensors? Don't think so. It would require new lenses. People have just switched mounts and bought new lenses, they won't do that again anytime soon.
I am talking about the end of the Mech Shutter outside of the Z9. For example, I would love to see an mirrorless replacement without Mech Shutter for the Nikon D500 DSLR Camera.
A Curved sensor would start out niche, but I certainly think that within 10 years, they will be in production at Canon, Nikon, an or Sony.
Don't need AI to do HDR, quad bayer sensors already could do that, would probably see curved sensors sooner than 10 years, flexible oled screens are already used in practical applications. Curved organic sensors would be great...maybe in the far future we could just use human eyes.
@BackToNature1 - Curved sensor in a MILC would probably be hard for Canon/Sony/Nikon/Panasonic because they've all invested heavily in lens development for flat sensors. Not just would consumers not want to switch, but manufacturers don't want to switch until they can earn more from their R&D investment in lenses.
Best bet would be some company that isn't invested in FF yet, such as OMD or Fuji, but even that doesn't seem likely to me.
//
That said, curved sensor in cameras with integrated lenses makes a tonne of sense. Canon revamping some of the G#X cameras, or something like a RX1 or x100v with a curved sensor might gain a bunch from that.
//
Unless... unless the sensor curve could change. Stick on the lens, and the lens profile tells the camera what curve to apply to the sensor. That'd make sense, if it's plausible.
I'm sure is great, but with a price of $6k and the size of 2 cameras, you really gotta NEED one in order to buy/carry. A tool everybody is talking about and very few will buy or use.
It's great because regardless of Brand, the same tech eventually trickles down to more affordable cameras. For example the R6, R3, an EOS-1D X Mark III have the same DIGIC X Image Processor. As do the Sony A1 and a7iv, with the BIONZ XR.
@Platimunkid. Exactly! I hardly ever used to read the reviews of cameras like the 1D’s and their Nikon equivalents as I had no interest in lugging one about nor the inclination to spend that on a camera. Much more interested in cameras like D500, 7D etc.
If cameras like R6 and Sony A7 IV benefit from some trickle down technology, great but no mater how technically brilliant the R3, Z9 and A1 are I don’t see the point in obsessing over which one can deliver whatever it is a bit better then the other. I won’t own any of them due to cost and lack of the need for what they offer. Yes R3 and Z9 would also rule themselves out due to size but that’s kind of irrelevant as like most amateurs I won’t even consider owning any of them.
Maybe because these flagships are most at home with glass that costs 2x or more than the body, you really don't need these for the vast majority of photography paid or otherwise.
The funny thing is, many of those who joke about nailing with Canikon pro bodies, buy protective cases and screen protectors for their smartphones. Nothing personal, and no pun intended - just an observation.
The text and video reviews are not published in sync. The video review just happened to come out first, but that doesn't mean a written review isn't coming later.
1) DPreview TV episodes and written articles are done by different members of the staff on different schedules. 2) Initial versions of the written reviews are typically published right after the announcement and later amended with more detail. 3) The initial written review is right here:
I meant seeing positively on the ending. Chris talked about the Z9 and A1 in comparison a little bit which lead to the mention about an upcoming real comparison, which should be interesting to see. I would rather look forward to that than a flamewar in this comment section (though of course the upcoming video has the potential to incite more discussion. At least it shows that people care :) )
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