DPReview TV: Panasonic DFD vs. Canon Dual Pixel autofocus

Chris - great video, as always, but a few suggestions:

I'd really appreciate it if dpr included screenshots depicting the various AF zones available on every model you review. Often these are not accurately depicted in instruction manuals, and video reviews seem to concentrate on eye-AF while ignoring other focus zones and modes.

On another point, bright green squares dancing all over the EVF in response to subject movement can be very distracting, so it would also be nice if dpr could report whether these can be turned off, reduced in brightness or be assigned different colours.

The viewfinder experience is at least as important as any other aspect of a camera, so it would be great if reviews presented more information and screenshots as guidance.

DFD will always need more processing power than dual pixel. It needs more processing cycles to hone in. Dual pixel can provide (near) accurate depth information by measurement instead of calculation. Canon could do the exact same thing as dfd does if they wanted but with the aid of dual pixel info from the chip. The only reason the s1 is quick for photo is an old trick, brute force powerrrrrr. Larger body, larger battery, more processing power. This also means the Lumix s camera's will always be a little bigger, more expensive etc. They have to include more power to do the same as pfaf and dual pixel.

Dual Pixel AF in general is pretty amazing. With my 5D Mark IV, it focuses on things in low light with speed and accuracy that constantly surprises me.

Nothing new here. Its physically impossible that a focussing system that has to move back and forth to find the correct focus point, can never beat one that knows right away where to move.
I actually wondered why Panasonic brings out a dedicated video camera (S1H) with this AF anyways. Its like a F1 car with square wheels.

*** Continuous Video Tracking (not still) *** is the future of photography. Sony Real-time AF, Nikon & Fuji Eye AD, and Canons DualCMOS AF is highlighting (M43 horrible C-AF weakness in video). Gone are the days that MF is acceptable in Video. I wish M43 take EyeAF more seriously. *** Request Full Comprehensive EyeAF tracking comparison *** Sony vs Fuji vs Canon vs Nikon vs Panasonic vs Olympus.

My smartphone could nail these focus tests better than either camera.

My point: please include DOF/ Aperture information! Was it the same for both cameras?

Frankly, I was expecting a bit more profound testing (behind the scenes).

I'd love to see a focusing test between a Panasonic G9 (with DFD) and an Olympus EM1 II (with hybrid PDAF/CDAF focusing.) These two cameras sit at the high end of M4/3 with a very similar feature set and price point.

Does anyone know of a test like that has been done?

Between my Pana GX9 and Sony a6500, the GX9 has better AF in every respect. In sensitivity, camera response, and most importantly, accuracy. Comparisons were made with native brand and format lenses. And obviously, neither camera should be compared to pro league machines.

Make it a bit more challenging between the two camera's, do these test with zoom lenses and take a subject like a car thats driving by. I see a lot of difference between the two systems ! Coming from a GX8 (and G80) and now using a R (both in 4K), the R dus a far better job. The zooming action makes it a very difficult job for the Panasonic system

And Sony ate both for breakfast...

No matter what content to review, give it to Christ and Jordan, you can watch it relax and enjoyable. When Jordan rolled on the car hood, I couldnt stop laughing even I had prepared for something funny happen as usual.

Hey guys, thumbs up for your reviews. I really enjoy watching them.

No stupid clickbait titles like "camera x destroys camera z" or "why I ditched brand x for brand z",...

Right balance between too funny and plain.

No bashing of brands, systems etc.

And last but not least your great looks of course :-)

Hey Jordan,

I'd LOVE a three way battle, Sony A73 (or A9), Canon something or other and Pana GH5 (or similar) for video AF.

I've found, with my limited testing and not side by side, that the A9 can't be beat, I'd love to know if this is true, also, if a cheaper camera could get close.

This just demonstrates bad photography. Why did they not try single auto focus? Yeah we all know Panasonic is not good at AFC. Stills or video it’s pretty much the same. But single AF is very fast and accurate. I like back button focus method.

simply not simplistically

https://www.thoughtco.com/simple-and-simplistic-1689612

great video

First up the Canon 50mm STM is not a fast focussing lens, miles behind the Panasonic. It beating the Panasonic shows the gap that still exists between the focussing systems.

Second, Canon have improved DPAF a lot. It’s just that the system was very good to begin with. But in terms of control the latest DPAF cameras are miles in front of the early ones.

Third - I’m glad someone who is objective is finally saying what has always been true: DPAF is mostly known for being good in video, yet somehow people got the idea that it was way better than any other system for stills use. It isn’t. Canon’s biggest issue for stills? Looooooing black out times between frames. Absolutely kills the AF (which works beautifully if you aren’t taking lots of shots or taking video).

Nobody give me that nonsense that Canon (like the R) have no black out.

Great video chaps! When's Jordan moving into law enforcement?

I have the Lumix G9. There are a variety of settings for use in tracking subjects available to me, across all focus types (single-point, area, custom, tracking, face-detect). I've found that the default one works reasonably well at keeping a running toddler in focus with face-detect - the greater difficulty is actually keeping him in frame!

I did have the opportunity to test tracking at the Royal International Air Tattoo in 2018, before the firmware update was out. Tracking worked, but I found AFF worked best in hitting focus on fast-moving jets. If I get another opportunity, I'll try to work through some of the other tracking-setting available to me.

Is it even possible to get pleasing results with AF when shooting video? Robotic focusing might not be pleasing to watch. It is like teaching computer to play music instruments. There is so many things which will change in each situation. Try to code that. Even all humans don't agree what is pleasing.

Panasonic should just focus to give more tools to aid manual focusing in video recording. Maybe some kind of AF scripts where you can preset different focus points, curves for focusing speed and change direction. It is like recording your focusing pattern and then execute it later. This way you can carefully fine tune precise focus for different points. Might not work well with random action, but pleasing results often require some kind of staging.

Fellow Canadian Gerald Undone does a nice presentation, discussing to-day's basic three AF systems. He also discusses the hybrid A/F systems and explains why for some kinds of shooting, the Sony's with superior processors, are often the best.
<The Evolution of Autofocus - Canon EOS R vs Sony a7 III vs Panasonic G9>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaJFOH_gmGM&feature=youtu.be

WE THE NORTH/ GO RAPTORS GO!

Already in the start critical mistake.

CDAF has been better than any PDAF system when it comes to focusing speed and accuracy.

But where the old PDAF lenses didn't perform fast on the CDAF system, the modern lenses designed for both does so extremely fast.

The old way done CDAF limitation did come when you needed continuous focusing with very short time between frames to get focus, the PDAF won as it got in that same short time the info to move lens about right range.

The modern CDAF speed even in C-AF is beating even best PDAF systems there, but their change to get focus in time can be limited in very high framerates.

I think this was a fair comparison, but I wish the review compared the GX9 not to the 2.5 year old GH5 but perhaps something newer, like the G9 or G90/95 which have the latest and fastest DFD hardware.

I knew the winner before even starting the video

It's tough when you have to negotiate a minefield of patents. Canon's for DPAF, Sony (and others) for OSPDAF/Hybrid. DFD is a clever way of deriving the additional phase information quickly without direct phase detection using split-pixel or dedicated-row phase detectors. It has the virtue of not having phase detection row artifacting, like DPAF, but without the signal loss of splitting pixels.
On the other hand, there's simply no substitute for a focusing scheme that can produce two dimensions of focus information instantaneously.
It's not that Panasonic engineers aren't clever...it's more that, aside from using light field imaging (with all its image resolution problems), there's not a lot of alternatives to PD and CD based AF technologies. DFD is an extension of what Panasonic knows how to do quite well.

Testing a top-end m4/3 cam against an entry level DSLR? Test it against the R.

Another good review with an honest conclusion.

Great video. Canon has done a good job, and their focus system is more impressive.

But this was shot on a GH5, so really that camera is, as usual, the winner. :)

I the DFD have suffered in a FZ1000 and now in an LX100, and honestly it is something that I do not want to suffer again if I can avoid it, it is not that it is useless in AF-C with its "eternal search", it is that it gives me false positives with easy situations even for a simple contrast AF system. I made 15 photos to a tree located about 50 meters a few minutes before dawn, I got only one shot in focus I tried with spot focus and fine focus. With another tree located about 150m in broad daylight something similar happened to me. It's really bad, I do not know how it will be in the flagships of the brand, but in FZ1000 and LX100 it stinks (LX100 even more).

DFD produces visible warbling during video recording because it requires two delta frames (plus a 3rd final focus-movement frame) at slightly different focus positions to perform its depth calculations and naturally those frames will be captured as part of the video. I wonder though if this could be minimized or eliminated by synchronizing the intervals of the DFD frames relative to video frames, in possible combination with over-oversampling the video frames so that the camera can toss-out OOF DFD frames. For example, when the camera is configured to shoot at 24p, shoot at 48p/60p instead (or 3x to eliminate both DFD frames), and based on the DFD calculation result, toss out the DFD frame (1st or 2nd) that is further OOF so that it’s not encoded in the resulting video.

should have ended it with a surprise winner from Sony

start from 2:20 ...till then a lot of talking......borderline drag

The video is just 6 minutes long. Including a third hybrid option might have been nice. Something like an X-T30 or A6400.

If Panny still believes that they can improve the CDAF to same level of Sony Hybrid AF they are wasting time.
Keep trying and still keep failing.

So the outcome of the video is that the GH5 with the faster processor keeps up with a SL3?

Please don't sugar coat the issues around DFD and the Panasonic cams. There is a reason why those with Panasonic cameras shoot video on MF instead of relying on AF as with Sony, Canon, Fuji and EVEN Nikon.

Panasonic can try as they want to say DFD is great but its just GOD AWFUL as it was plenty evident on the video. I know you said you had only those 2 cams on hand but a better comparison is A7III, Z6, GH5, XT3 and EOS R.

To be fair we all know the outcome here of such a test. Canon/Sony leading the way with Nikon/Fuji slapping each other for third place and the Panasonic asking when is the race STARTING.

Panasonic AF is a PIG with lipstick. A pretty one, even sexy. One that I would introduce to my mom. Marry it. Could have few piglets and perhaps grow old together. LOL!

But in the end it is still a PIG.

Which cameras have "hybrid contrast phase" autofocus?

P.S. Jordan needs to work on his car hood slides :)