DPReview TV: Leica Monochrom M10 review

RGB conversions can even fix Trump"s makeup.
https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/3401543788/albums/b-w-conversion-using-capture-one

You are right.

Engineers do spend time to develop a useless product, and crazy people are actually buying this useless product just because they have no clue. Only the people commenting and bashing have a clue :-)))

And a firm like Leica can go on the market and provide technical data that only commenters of DPreview know for a fact being pure BS. Of course these comments are based on a camera they've never seen nor touched, and the comments are based on jpg files posted on a website. Because looking at a jpg on the net (and probably on a phone) is the only way one can evaluate the quality of a photo.

Excellent ! Once again, keep them coming :-))))))

So where does Leica post detailed comparisons of a b/w image made at ISO 1440 through a red filter with this monochrome camera compared to the same image shot at ISO 180 with their similar color camera...converted with just red colors lightened using a color slider? (Not the red channel tone curve.)

If Leica does not prove the superiority of the monochrome approach for specific applications, what basis does one choose from?

Clearly if one is concerned about having control of how colors are reproduced into b/w, adjusting RGB files is superior and the color M cameras are a better choice. Does Leica tell its customers that?

No.. Leica just let you queue with your check book, take reservations one year in advance and stupid customers just wait to be lucky enough to get a delivery. They pay and wish they could pay more. These buyers are bozos, you can spot them with the red dot AND a red nose.

Now there are tons of documentation about the DNG files produced by a Monochrom, and including side by side with the Phase One Achromatic.

PhotonsToPhotos have a good start with the PDR of the M10M.
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica%20M10,Leica%20M10%20MONOCHROM

Then we'll see about color interpretation. :-)))

You didn't answer anything I asked.

Reproducing colors into b/w with some measure of control is what distinguishes more highly skilled photographers from those who don't care.

The catch is when you use filters on a monochrom camera you negate its noise advantage. And even with filters you are working with your hands behind your back compared to converting RGB.

How much additional resolution you may get in a given circimstance is not worth discussing but would be worth illustrating. So where have you done this illusyration? Note that I do illustrate my points.

If one opens the book" Natural Light Photography" by Ansel Adams to page 21 "Film Response and Filters," one will be presented with a fairly comprehensive explanation of why and how to use filters. There are numerous examples of filter tests on an actual scene and on a color chart. And the descriptions of many of the photos in the book show they were made using filters.

Yes a lot of photojournalists, street shooters, and others shoot from the hip and don't use filters. Is that the kind of photography that requires a monochrome camera that costs more than $10,000? (Lens included.)

Well Monochrome and filters must be good for something if NASA does it that way. I don't know how you can question the resolution advantage of monochrome when there are astro enthusiasts scraping the bayer sensor off and then showing before and after photos.

So this is an astrophotography camera? Do you plan to shoot three images through red, green, and blue filters? Did you know that before integral tripack color film was invented "color" cameras existed that simultaneously shot three b/w separation images using beam splitters and color filters?

Do you know that if you use a filter in front of a lens it is worse than in front of the sensor?

Do you know that this is a camera testing site yet they have not shot their standard scenes with this camera?

So while we don't know if there is significant increase in resolution with this, we do know it will not give you the control over interpreting colors of the scene as you get with a color camera. (Adams's previsualiztion concept can now be achieved in post.) That's a fact that would keep me from ever using it.

The color M10 has a base ISO of 100
The Monochrom M10 has a base ISO of 160.

So does the Bayer filter only have a 2/3 stop penalty?

A red filter used on a lens in front of the Monochrome has a 3 stop penalty. Other strongly colored filters have a penalty of 2 or more stops.

If you look at a converted image made using a 40-60MP camera, are you typically displeased by the resolution and noise? How easy is it to get the most resolution out of these high pixel count cameras in typical photography? Lack of IS certainly will limit this camera in lower speed hand held exposures. Plus I don't think it has a vibration free electronic shutter mode. (Not sure.)

And if you are locked down shooting still subjects on a tripod, some cameras have pixel shift for higher resolution.

Why do you say there is "highly likely a resolution adbvantage" when it is easily demonstrated that it exits or does not exist.

The studio comparison tool here on DPReview does not support the claim of increased resolution on the 24MP monochrome sensor, so I don't see how it would be much different with a 40MP monochrome sensor compared with a similar color one.

https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/3401543788/photos/4026246/leica-m-monochrome-compared?inalbum=b-w-conversion-using-capture-one

Yes if people are determined to buy a monochrome camera to shoot b/w photos why should I care if they spend a lot and limit themselves for a theoretical advantage that seems to not be born out by the testing?

One can clearly see the huge resolution advantage between the Sony A7III and the A7RIV from the larger file size. So at least that lens is capable.

Blur on a colour sensor is mainly introduced by two things the AA filter and the demosaicing of the bayer pattern. You can remove the first on a colour sensor but you have to do the second and when you do the value of each pixel will be dependant on the value of neighbouring pixels and therefore there will be a loss of contrast. Sure you can sharpen in post but that introduces its own issues. Look at the wikipeidia page on demosaicing and you'll see the blur introduced by bayer. If it didn't you would have a nifty 3:1 losses compression algorithm. Also on the DPR comparison tool slide the viewer to the concentric circles. Notice how much better the M is?

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=leica_m_monochrom_typ246&attr13_1=leica_m10&attr13_2=sony_a6600&attr13_3=sony_a7riii&attr15_0=jpeg&attr15_1=jpeg&attr15_2=jpeg&attr15_3=jpeg&attr16_0=320&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=100&normalization=full&widget=1&x=0.3020475405977877&y=-0.5995270211088725

You really are grasping at straws -- Concentric circles!!! That is the M's forte.

Yes, occasionally there is a moire pattern with color sensors. If you select the 24MP Sony A7III there is very little moire. In all the rest of the areas, the 24MP Monochrom doesn't even outperform a $450 APS Sony. And if you really care about resolution, you can buy a 42MP Sony A7RII for $1400. I have posted b/w 100% crops on my previous links.

Speaking of APS Sony, here is some b/w work I did with the old Nex 6. I don't see why I would need a camera much better than that for b/w reportage/street photos. (I have an a6000 and the only reason to get a newer model for me would be faster AF.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4adGwnht7w

Tibor1:

"So what improvement to my images do I get for my $8000+?"

Look up "interpolation and RGB sensors".

Of course, you'll need a good Leica M lens to mount on it. The best, there are only 5 currently in production, start around $8,000 and go as high as $14,000.

Right, there are excellent Leica M lenses that are "just" about $5,500.

Your other question:

Show the client the results, that means a very good print on good paper from a tiff file if the end purpose of the job is printed photos.

Think of it this way, you're considered a master cabinet maker, and you've had that status for 20 years, so are sought out by those who want excellent cabinet work, and ten years ago you spent $4000 on six Japanese cabinet chisels: Do you really think a client is going to ask about your chisels? No, he/she is going to ask a bit about finish and woods used. Then look at the results of other projects you've finished.

:)

HR:

I didn't know there was black and also gray light. Can you expand upon such light, and how a lens would filter every other visible colour out?

Ironically, despite your satire, such a lens could exist, but it would be bigger than your extra super special Panasonic--assuming you're using an m4/3 camera.

They drop for a while then gain back later. The M8 is gaining value, so is the M9 for example. Fact is, they drop MUCH less than other cameras do, and even sometimes you can gain a profit by selling them later.

Yeah, I get the same way... and the bad part is that I like his videos, but it's just a complete waste of time compared to the amount of information I can absorb in X amount of time by text. Also a waste to pay someone to shoot and edit video, when the information can be disseminated so much quicker and more efficiently. But every time I watch, his manners and meter through the material is perfect. Inefficient.

@misspiggy01 ah, sarcasm

Well there is expensive and Leica expensive. Even on the remit of a luxury brand I was taken back how much it cost, especially when you consider they have actually removed features.

Not everyone has you level of camera pricing knowledge and it was not mentioned in the video, so it is worth pointing out and has to be taken into account when evaluating the camera

You do not "filter" out the red for instance in post. You can adjust any color lighter or darker before conversion without affecting the overall image as one does when using filters.

Clearly at the heart of this is a lack of understanding of how empowering it is to use color sliders and other tools in post when converting. So if one is so enthralled with b/w photography to spend a huge sum on a monochrome camera, you would think they'd at least be willing to learn how to have the most control over tonal reproduction. Afterall, that is the most important thing.

A monochome camera would not be worthwhile to me because it does not allow one adequate control of tonal representation.

B/W film was similarly compromised and I wouldn't use that either today since I would not want to limit my ability to express myself unnecessarily.

Study the examples I posted to see why.

I'm certainly proficient enough to shoot with a specific b/w look as my goal.

You don't see that you've chosen a limit, and for my money, it's the worst one to choose.

You review the shots made with your monochrome camera and wish you could see tone differences of red and green objects. But there's nothing you can do about it.

So you naysayers... do you have extensive experience using the color controls I've illustrated in C1 or other programs to adjust a color image when converting to b/w?

If so, where are your samples that show some kind of deficiencies of process? If not, why are you knocking it?

I posted my examples that I feel illustrate how this process is a huge game changer for b/w photography.

BTW, my comments have absolutely nothing to do with using or not using a Leica M camera. So let's not go there please.

Friend, I've been using PS since 2.5, and have used nigh every photo manipulation app out there. You're too proud of yourself for discovering the Black & White tool in C1 (which is super similar to Alt+Shift+Ctrl+B in PS, the first few palettes in the Develop module of LR, the B&W Adjustment in Affinity, B&W Filter in On1, etc...)

Congratulations, you've discovered a tool requested by thousands of photographers, and implemented dozens of times. No one cares. You still miss the point.

A limited tool changes how you capture, what you capture, what choices you make. You will make different art, and become a different, more experienced artist. You will look at things in a new way, and that will improve you, and thus your work.

I read your bio on your website, you should be able to see this. There is no "best" way to make art, there's just art. If you're not challenging yourself, then you're just following mental recipes, and treading water.

The biggest improvements in my photography took place when I started to shoot manually, and then again when I went back to shooting film. The tool and the process will affect your choices and output. You perception of risk and opportunity changes. You will take different images to fit with the limits of what your tools will output. So your, "You can't adjust the values of colored objects!" complaint is meaningless to me.

I know that site, they doing great job.

check out Fujifilm GFX in B&W mode. Much more amazing!!