DPReview TV: The five best handling digital cameras of all time

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@Foto... Why do you hate Sony so much?

No, the intelligence of my comments are only meant to surpass yours armandino. That mission is apparently accomplished with ease.

snapa, i never said i hate Sony, but tell me who enjoys holding onto a wet soap. Not many..

@FotografMagnus
pretty lame comeback buddy! Try harder :-)
admittingly, it might not be too easy to redeem yourself with that avatar and that comment... maybe try some humour!

The tight fit with large lenses causing knuckle crush is a bigger problem.

If you suffer from puffy hands, sure.

People with healthy BMI's are doin' fine.

Leica M gives me the slippery wet soap feeling

Speaking of lame armandino, you keep bashing me for my avatar yet you have none yourself. What are you so afraid of ?!

He does, it's the silhouetted photographer.
It's actually quite nice and that's probably why it's so popular. Check it out, everyone loves it!

It's a white man on a grey background, so it's a little racist, but still...

Unfortunately many times when making any suggestion about any shortcomings of Sony gear, it brings out a thread of personal attacks.

It's fine to disagree on the gear, but many Sony fans seem to take it in a strange personal way and lash out with personal attacks.

The OP voiced his opinion about Sony cameras. Many have voiced similar opinions about the size and feel of Sony camera bodies. Many on this thread have voiced opinions about other camera bodies and brands. That's normal.

Now again, if someone wants to disagree that's fine. But then some resorted to personal insult against the OP and then it's off to this spiral of insults.

Gear discussions will engender disagreements about the gear and yes, that means that sometimes someone won't like a particular brand/model. But saying something negative about Sony or any brand should not bring out a reply insulting a person. Insult the gear if you will, but not the person. It's only camera gear.

Don't drop the Sony.

Canon outdid sony here too with hot overheating soap in r5.

@FotografMagnus
relax... it is supposed to be a funny thread, I have plenty of funny Swedish friends... what happened to you?
So I guess a monkey avatar is what makes people self confident nowadays? I guess I haven't kept up with the trends.

TRU -it was a blatant troll, and he got a couple bites. Happens all the time *with every brand*

@TRU, I've never dropped my a6300 with any lens on it, including the 70-300G. Do you agree with FotografMagnus that all Sony cameras are like holding a wet soap bar?
BTW, his comments are extreme trolling, I hope not. FotografMagnus seems to have something against all Sony cameras for some reason. A wet bar of soap, how absurd is that, seriously!

The reality is that any time someone criticizes Sony, it usually brings out some personal attacks. That should not be.

The OP made a comment about Sony cameras. Many have noted that their ergonomics is poor, sometimes with just as colorful language. For instance, some have compared the design of Sony cameras to old VCRs.

The OP used his own expression. That should not prompt a personal attack against him. People should be able to say anything about a camera without it provoking a cheap attack on the individual.

BTW, remember that video of the A1 sliding down the snowy hill at the recent Winter Olympics? Apparently someone did find the A1 hard to hold onto.

@Thoughts R Us
would you stop your whining, would you? What you are complaining about is not about Sony. It is the world of internet and it is true for everything and every brand, and you want to give your personal spin to it. You are acting like a child and the funny thing it is obvious to all of us out here.

The problem is that ergonomics are subjective, they can be perfect, average and poor simultaneously for different users and the OP made a blanket statement about that subjective design.

Also, Sony have changed their designs significantly altered Ng the way from A7 through each MK2,3,4 iteration to the A1, with significantly redesigned ergonomics and software (menus).

Attacking a person is never good, attacking a statement, which was wrong is fine. It was wrong.

Sure, Sony users like rebuttal, but non Sony users like to stir the pot also.

'Majority of opinion' is a guess, and, it doesn't mean it's an agreed consensus.

XS socks, T-Shirts don't fit most american people, that doesn't mean they're ergonomically poor.

XS clothing fits the majority of the world's population, that doesn't mean XS is 'right' either.

The part of the conversation that's lacking is the nuances, or lack of it.

I prefer my (relatively) big fat hands in a Nikon flagship body (D5/Z9 etc.) but that doesn't work if I'm flying the body, then I'll use an A1. None of this is covered in this conversation which is lacking the nuance that's necessary.

Again, less consistent videos by DPR, more quality into the content though. That's what I've felt has been lost from the camera store tv days, you hired these guys and did the American thing, pump the volume, screw the quality.

I'm not saying that is wrong for the channel, but it's wrong for this topic and most others imo, check out the leaders in the space to see I'm right.

Ergonomics is subjective, but we should not be complacent about the ' consensus'. For more than one in ten people the consensus layout of current cameras is awkward, simply because they are left handed.
We should be wary of having an 'ideal' when it doesn't really exist. What we need is diversity that allows more people to find what suits them.

Revenant for many it's not the same thing.

Look at fuji. It's a brand that a lot of people love particularly because of how fun the cameras are to use/handle.

Having a dedicated dial on top to select shutter speed or an aperture dial on the lens is the opposite of good ergonomics.

When you're shooting you need to remove your hands from the zoom and shutter button to change settings.

With other brands you almost don't need to move the fingers from the normal position to be able to change the same parameters. Still, the handling/fun to use factor is a key part of why people like those cameras.

Yes its all about what we are used to.

@PAntunes

That's very arguable. Many people actually think that dedicated dials is an example of good ergonomics, and I wouldn't be surprised if most of the people who enjoy the Fuji cameras think that. I haven't met that many people who would say: "The ergonomics on this camera really sucks, but wow, I'm having a great time using it."

Revenant having dedicated dials is great, but they need to be positioned in a way that they don't force you to take your hands away from the shutter button to change those dials while you're shooting. That's good ergonomics.

But it's way more fun to have a top dial similar to old style SLR. Just like it's more fun to have an aperture ring on the lens.

@Alastair Norcross

I'll try to explain with an example: You may personally prefer the work of Dua Lipa, but the work of Johannes Sebastian Bach will still be objectively better.

@Class A: You bring up a good point: while the subject of handling/ergonomics may be classified as "subjective" there are rules that make for better design.

There clearly are products better designed than others. For instance the iPod was clearly a better design than any other MP3 player and that is why it went on to dominate its market.

So sure even though it is a judgement by humans, and not some number from a test, does not mean that some consensus does not emerge.

Subjective: I like yellow cameras, you like blue.

Objective: I can turn this camera with one hand but I need two hands to turn on the other.

PAtune, if you’re holding a camera for several hours then ergonomics and handling have has an enormous impact on hand fatigue. Not subjective at all for we all have very similar hand shape. 🤚

PAtune, if you’re holding a camera for several hours then ergonomics and handling have has an enormous impact on hand fatigue. Not subjective at all for we all have very similar hand shape. 🤚

DavitorR5 that's quite an interesting point of view. When shooting, what should be holding the weight is the hand on the lens, not the hand on the camera. When walking with the camera, if the lens is heavy, usually a strap is used. When the lens is not heavy, it's not a problem.

And even them it will depend on your hand size.

When do you hold a camera for several hours for that to become a problem?

I wonder if Chris does his own stunts? Tom Cruise does, I think.

MILC man - I asked both Sony and a Sony expert about this at a recent show (SWPP) and they say you can't do what I described on an A1. Now if you can explain how to set an A1 up as follows please do (really!)... or anyone else can dive in...

(1) Shutter button as AE-Lock but not AF

(2) A easy-for-thumb-to-reach rear button as AF-ON, Continuous AF while pressed. Let's say centre-point only AF. Non-AI tracking.

(3) A close to #2 easy-for-thumb-to-reach rear button as AF-ON, Continuous AF using All the AF points and subject tracking for, say, Birds (or AI generally).

Plus since I get the vast majority of my shots in-focus the advantages of the R5 and A1 are probably more AI Eye AF for assorted creatures. Nice to have but not essential considering I usually get it anyway.

They did suggest using the Custom dial slots, but I hate those as you can't change what you are using instantly and as I tweak other settings as I go along they will be incorrect and I may not remember what they do.

Oh and most mid/high level cameras from the last 10 years can AF excellently provided the user spends the time to work out how to control their AF system optimally and sets them up in the best way for them. However 99.9% of users don't do that...

Thom Hogan has done some interesting stuff on getting Nikon AF (F and Z bodies) to work much better than the default AF settings for example.

I like Pentax, even the K-01 to a degree, but that K-S1 was terrible in many ways. IQ was fine, but... man.

Eric Hensel
Strange then, that I make better photos with the 500CM than any other camera. It’s inspiring to use and I gel completely with its operation. Ergonomics is a subjective thing. If the handling of a camera makes you take better pictures then that’s a plus. You seem to think ergonomics is solely about comfort and speed? Wrong

Different users, different experiences. Love my Sony, feels comfortable in the hand, I appreciate the low weight and smaller size. As for the menus, I very rarely use them, and would be as difficult to "memorise" a Canon or Nikon menu, as a Sony menu. This horse really has been beaten to death.

4P: I completely agree. My comment, for clarification, was about the rangefinder from -61 that is a metal block with no handle or grip and not much of a UI. These things are very subjective.

Some parts of me are big; some not so.

Maybe to be put in a different thread.

@Magnar W: what you describe is common in posts on literally every article here. We see users of every brand doing this.

@zxaar: As opposed to some other articles where we find Sony users lamenting why other cameras are not like Sony...

As just one example, how many times do we read Sony users saying that some of the cameras from other brands are too big?

So then why comment. If your happy with whatever brand you own then other competitive brands should not bother you at all. If it does however bother you then follow your own advice.

"What I like must be best for everybody else, " - 100% agree.

What's next? What boots fit me best? And then everyone rushing out to buy exactly the same boots in exactly the same size, cause I said so?

"So then why comment. If your happy with whatever brand you own then other competitive brands should not bother you at all. If it does however bother you then follow your own advice.

"

Are you not happy with your canon. You post frequently here.

@ DavitorR5: Well, I am a multi brand user, but I don't need to visit treads about other brands than my personal preference to talk them down, like you do ...

"And yes how it it feels in MY HANDS is a major factor in ME considering a camera. Not subjective to Me."

Do you notice a slight contradiction here? How the camera feels to you has very little bearing on how it feels in my hand. CHEERS :)

PS: Being able to try out many brands in a physical store is the best! You are lucky to live near one of the best stocked photo stores in the world.

Z9 is not too heavy; if one has been able to try one out, then one can realize that. I do agree that the R3 is a fantastic design.

Z9 is lighter than all pro dslrs.

Both the R3 and Z9 feel great in the hand. With neither do you feel that the weight is burdensome.

I knew the R3 would feel great when I saw the body and the weight data and it surely does.

But I was worried about the Z9 weight when I saw that data. But then I was able to try it out and hold it and it feels great as well. With these pro bodies it's not just the absolute weight number but the distribution of the weight and the overall design of the body.

It was the same way with the Nikon and pro DSLRs...they seem like beasts and they are performance wise and durability wise. But they weren't hard to carry around IMHO.

I'm not saying those large pro bodies are for everyone, but just looking at a weight number doesn't reveal how well designed they are. Canon and Nikon have a long history of producing these bodies and their engineers have worked through how to make this heavier body feel really good in the hands and be practical to use and carry.

@Thoughts R Us
"With neither do you feel that the weight is burdensome."
I spend many hours with my camera up in the arms and shooting non stop. Generally pretty substantial lenses. My camera weights 1/2 of the Z9 and I do get tired holding it up. Every gram counts for me. I guess for some it does not, but I bet it matters for anyone carrying them around for many hours straight (i.e. wedding photographers).

@DavitorR5
Personal preference. I am a sport photographer, neither Chris nor Jordan are and I seriously doubt there is much convergence in what we seek in a camera.

@DavitorR5
Btw, I own an R5 as well, which seems like you have. The A1 is far better in handling than the R5. If you are ever interested I can break it down exactly why.

No armandino, unfortunately the A1 is not far better than the R5 because if that were the case it would at least make it to either Chris or Jordan list. But it did NOT. I know that’s hard to accept but just get over it.

The A7rii was pretty revolutionary when it came for several reasons; operating speed wasn't really one of them. I had a canon 7D for a while which felt..well large, rather large, kind of blocky and a little bit plasticky. Not at all laggy, fast AF, fast operation but the sensor wasn't particularly impressive. And the mirror/shutter noise...well. I love my A9, sensor, ergonomic and operation-speed-wise. It is just large enough for my hands and feels durable.

Both Chris & Jordan have extensive use with the latest of Sony cameras. Ever wonder why none made it to there list…

The A7R3 and R4 are just as uncomfortable on my experience.

Aero, I don’t think Chris with his success at YouTube will care at all about your critique.

@mcantsin
"Today's cameras are too fiddly and bloated with settings and features for my taste."
If you spend the time customizing them, you are likely going to fiddle a lot less with a modern camera than one of the "classic"
1) Auto ISO implementation, current cameras really need only manual exposure + auto iso, the other programs are not needed
2) AF almost never needs to change nowadays. AF-C+tracking

I like the A1 because it feels a lot like an old school camera where you turn dials and knobs for all your core settings. To me it is the best old school style modern reincarnation, with a great tactile experience while being quick for real professional action photography. Not the best for some for the more extreme use (button-dial combo are easier if using gloves and less prone to impact damage) but that is nitpicking, and you can still program buttons and dials for the purpose.

Armandino, the A1 did not even make it on the list of both Chris & Jordan. Both of whom have had extensive use with the A1. Hopefully you’ll figure out why.

Where is that X-H2?