people who actually shoot sports know that keeper ratios are the #1 priority... if your competitor is getting shots that you can't, it's taking money out of your pocket.

grips and menus are opinions not facts, and it won't help you get the shot, so nobody in the pro sports world deliberately chooses inferior af/tracking/evf performance over things that don't improve keeper ratio.

"the greater gear-focused public" doesn't need and can't understand revolutionary features like nearly unlimited control over a huge range of light flicker frequencies, which btw no other camera has ever had.

even the $6500 1dxmk3 for example only addresses the 100-120hz range, while the a9ii does not need a mechanical shutter to address flicker issues... funny how nobody seems to understand that?

"the greater gear-focused public" doesn't shoot sports, so they are comfortable enough with frame duplication in the evf, and weaker af due to slow sensor readout speeds.

MILCman - Yes of course sports (and wildlife) shooters will prioritise AF and EVF performance over menu issues. They'll check out the Sony website to fathom out the ambiguities in the menu, and will assign the most needed items to custom buttons.

But the fact is that it is almost universally acknowledged that Sony menus and ergonomics are the company's weakest points.

Instead of becoming defensive about these issues, maybe realise that such constructive criticism is to the benefit of Sony and its users, because if the issues were addressed, they'd sell even more cameras, and the user-experience for most people would be better.

no, many sony owners have posted that they like sony size and ergonomics, including me.

i hate canikon boat anchors, and i also know that heavy camera bodies are _not_ ergonomic, per u.s. government data on repetitive stress injuries... weight is never ergonomic! sony has better ergonomics in part because it's lighter.

the fact that sony owns the overwhelming majority of milc market share is proof enough of everything that i've stated.

so again... don't confuse opinions with actual facts.

"grips and menus are opinions not facts, and it won't help you get the shot"

Actually, being able to hold and operate the camera efficiently will help you get the shot. Pro's know that their being able to operate a camera with as little friction as possible is a key for them. The best thing is if the camera gets out of the way so to speak and lets them do their job.

One function of performance is tech specs. But another function of performance is operability, usability, ergonomics. That's one reason why pro's often are the last to upgrade to the latest tech: they would rather stick to what they know because they realize the value of being able to operate a device with ease.

As to the EVF, well, some cameras like 1DXIII, D6 use OVF and many pro's prefer that: zero lag.

As to AF, realistically there are no differences between a9II, 1DXIII, R5/R6 and D6. They all perform so well that if one cannot get the shot that is their problem.

"another function of performance is operability, usability, ergonomics".

Having the most reliable and fastest AF and fastest electronic shutter means just that. It means you don' t need to fiddle with settings as much as with other cameras since you can rely on the camera in more situations than with any other camera.

Thoughts - "And Sony users should want attention brought to this so that there is motivation to improve"

Unfortunately *some* Sony users are so busy defending their chosen brand that they fail to realise that our criticisms are generally well-intentioned and aimed at improving the products for them...

I really don't understand that attitude, because if someone makes a *valid* criticism of my own chosen brand Canon, I welcome it - and indeed when I feel it's necessary, I'm one of the first to draw attention to Canon's failings.

@entoman - "Unfortunately *some* Sony users are so busy defending their chosen brand"

unfortunately some people who don't own sony and don't have any experience with the a9/a9ii are constantly making false claims about what it is and what it's capable of.

@entoman - "I really don't understand that attitude"

a9/a9ii are sports cameras, you'd have to have experience with shooting sports to understand why it matters... so what sports have you shot? got any pics of that?

@Thoughts R Us - "It's not an either/or"

it most certainly *is* either/or... the r5/r6 is a major fail for pro sports shooting, due to the awful rolling shutter:

"Don't use Electronic Shutter with a Canon EOS R5"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrZY0ei2unc

@Thoughts R Us - "The AF is superb but Sony does need to work on the user experience"

i own a9, since 2017, the user experience is xlnt... sony real-time tracking is unmatched in the industry, and the button/dial programmability is better than the competition.

”There are problems with the ergonomics”
”*some* Sony users are so busy defending their chosen brand”

You are generalising too much. The article is about A9ii. There are quite different needs for a landscape photographer and a sports photographer, a person that trusts the camera or a person that wants to go manual, a person that likes to customize the camera to their specificera needs so they don’t need menus when shooting or a person that doesn’t, a person that finds a small camera more usable or a person that thinks its easier to use a larger camera, etc.

Ergonomics is largely subjective, so be specific on how you personally use a sports camera up intill today, what ergonomics you liked and why.

Not so long ago most people objected to why eye focus improved usabillity, Most argued larger cameras has better usabillity, and today most cameras are made smaller. I know Canon fans in this forum that argued for larger equipment not so long ago but today praises the smallish RF 70-200.

Thoughts - I'll make a few guesses FWIW:

1) If the body is "a9 series" as stated in the rumours, I would expect it to have an add-on grip (which to me is a preferable design, as removing it allows the camera to be used at true ground level, and makes it lighter). I would expect a different model designation (e.g. a1) if it had an integrated grip.

2) I'd speculate that it will have 8K with the option to extract 35MP stills, just like the R5, and given that Sony generally has more advanced and faster circuitry than anyone else, I would expect less overheating problems - they'll be very much aware of the need to do better than Canon on this issue.

3) Yes, I would expect it to be well over $5000, because theoretically it will be a superior camera to the D6, 1Dxiii or a9ii, with much higher resolution. I do think that pros will be willing to pay that much, but while the a9 and to a lesser extent the a9ii were within the price range of many serious amateurs, the new pro camera won't be.

continued....

4) You'd have to ask someone like Mike Ran about the requirements of sports shooters. For birders and to a lesser extent general wildlife shooters, high res is extremely desirable, provided that noise levels are acceptable at high ISO.

As regards the R5, yes it is arguably the best all round camera on the market and is perfectly capable of pro usage. But I would expect the new Sony to be even better specified and to have even better AF performance. I would also expect it to be built as strongly as a 1Dxiii or D6, especially if it is an integrated-grip design. Hopefully the ergonomics, menus and touchscreen implementation will also be considerably improved, but Sony seem to be particularly lax in that area.

continued...

As for myself, as you know I'm brand-neutral and very open minded, so I'd certainly be prepared to switch to this camera if it lives up to the hype, and if the price drops to an affordable level. But as a Canon owner who likes Canon ergonomics, I'd probably be swayed by the lower price of the R5, despite its limitations regarding overheating and battery life.

I'll also be carefully watching the R7 rumours - an APS sports camera in RF mount is something that I'd very much welcome...

"Trump creature" just made around half of posters hate you. Why do people bring politics into a photo forum. Doen't' make any sense ...

Biden is actually more physically active than the current occupant of the White House.

But regardless, I am ready for boring; I want government to be boring and competent and not the daily drama and crisis of the last 4 years. When govt functions best it is boring; it just gets the job done so we can all live our lives and focus on what is most important to us, without worrying about the nation being upended in any of a dozen ways.

So bring on the boring: that's a feature not a bug.

Well, I'm hopping he can capture stutters and mumbles with those frames per second and maybe get some dialogue going for age related dementia. Something good can come from it.

Biden won't do crazy and out of touch with reality stuff like suggest someone inject bleach into their veins to cure COVID. Or tell us that COVID is magically going away last April, or that somehow after the election we wouldn't even be talking about it again. Or any number of errors in basic fact.

When it comes to mental condition, we are getting a huge upgrade in Biden.

And here is some of what Adam Schultz will be able to capture: meeting with actual scientists and experts to solve problems; someone showing actual empathy to the suffering of others, and other nice things that we used to take for granted among our Presidents.

Pick your poison, no pun intended. Instead we will get a tough guy cold war era lifer politician that will have us in a half baked foreign conflict killing America lives and innocents with drones across the world by the thousands. Something even the media couldn't create to shame Trump. 18 months. Watch and see. The usual hawk Republicans will be on bored for sure and the liberals and media will do anything to prop their man. Back to killing non- Americans like a video game. That's what politicians do.

Sorry, but the current occupant of the White House was quite prolific using drones to strike people and even ended the Obama policy of reporting drone deaths. And then there were the fiasco's like abandoning the Kurds.

The current president has a pretty abysmal record on foreign policy, including letting the Saudi prince murder a journalist with impunity.

Then there are the many extra deaths from COVID that would not have happened with a more competent president.

The current president is the most anti-life in modern times.

So we are getting an upgrade in every way in Biden.

Mental condition upgrade? Have you even watched the old corrupt fool? He can’t even complete a sentence let alone get through a paragraph without bumbling up the message. If this photographer is as dishonest as the rest of the media you won’t be seeing to many photos of China Joe the rapist.

50 years of corrupt politics and enriching his relatives. When taxes go up and he gives up the office to the first non black black female I’ll be laughing at the clowns who get exactly what they deserve for voting for him.

Of course Biden will be a fine president. Will he be perfect..of course not, but he will believe in rule of law and democracy and the norms that allow for that.

The current occupant of the White House is a literal threat to our democracy, aside from his many other faults, like being a racist, serial liar, conspiracy monger, most corrupt president ever, etc.

And I'm sorry, but no one should try to normalize Trump. He's not just another Republican politician but a threat to democracy.

Yeah the Trump haters play the race card but can’t provide specifics. Corrupt? Biden is more corrupt than any politician in DC. The threat to Democracy has kept us out of war, had record employment, and stock markets at all time highs. I’m sure facts don’t matter to you. It’s obvious you have a terminal case of TDS. Biden doesn’t know what he believes. I’m sure AOC will let him know soon. Pathetic.

“ Yeah the Trump haters play the race card but can’t provide specifics.”

How many do you want?

1973: “The US Department of Justice sued the Trump Management Corporation for violating the Fair Housing Act. Federal officials found evidence that Trump had refused to rent to Black tenants and lied to Black applicants about whether apartments were available, among other accusations.“

1980s: Kip Brown, a former employee at Trump’s Castle said, “ When Donald and Ivana came to the casino, the bosses would order all the black people off the floor”

1991: John O’Donnell, former president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino quoted Trump “Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are short guys that wear yarmulkes every day. … I think that the guy is lazy. And it’s probably not his fault, because laziness is a trait in blacks. Trump later said in a 1997 Playboy interview that “the stuff O’Donnell wrote about me is probably true.”

“ Mental condition upgrade? Have you even watched the old corrupt fool? He can’t even complete a sentence let alone get through a paragraph without bumbling up the message”

Sir, have you seen Trump speak?

https://youtu.be/uOeWF0ZTi3s

https://youtu.be/UE9BXkQ-SRc

For the record I am not a huge fan of Biden but I have to agree what TRU is saying here

A9ii has very reliable combination of fast electronic shutter and speedy AF.

I'm not living in US, but some observations can be made based on what media publish or suppress.

Regardless if you like Trump or not, he has been a very accessible and visible president. The amount of negative media and deliberate misrepresentations towards him has been beyond anything I have seen from any country. Big discrepancy comparred to the rather limited Biden visibility and "protected" questions for him.
Scanning main media you wouldn't think Trump signed middle east peace deals, and unlike his precursor did not bomb several new countries. You would think Biden never received China money, and there has absolutely not been any voter fraud.

What happends in US tend to happen in other countries later on, so I am also worried there will be as distorted democracy scruitany elsewhere. My new years wish is that media starts doing its very important job properly onwards, in US and in other democracies.

Who the **** wants to see Photos of Biden :O

Trump doesn't have a racist bone in his body, unlike Biden who spouts one very week which is hidden by the press. Trump was fetted by Rosa Parks, Jessie Jackson and many others for his help to minorities before he became president, when they all decided to hate him for not being a demoncrat. Interestingly, Alveda King, the most honest anti-racist campaigner in the US, the niece of MLK, is a big supporter of Trump. Because she can see through the curtain of lies pushed out by the fake news press ...

FujLIver - I'll quote your own comment, from the thread above this one:

"Why do people bring politics into a photo forum. Doesn't make any sense ..."

Do I hear a "guilty" plea?

The Canon R5 and R6 can, just like the a9/a9II, also do 20 fps silent shutter, by which we really mean electronic shutter.

The R5/R6 also can do 12 fps mechanical shutter, whereas the A9II can do 10 fps mechanical shutter.

The R5/R6 AF system is just as reliable as the a9/a9II, and in some cases, as with animal eye AF, probably a bit more reliable.

But realistically both the Canon and Sony are fantastic AF systems and owners of both systems will be very satisfied with AF performance.

@Thoughts R Us
In real world A9ii is still faster than R5/6 when shooting 20fps continuously because A9ii has faster sensor readout (at least twice) and can keep up that burst without overheating and dropping frames.

@4sofnature: So explain to me how 20 fps from Sony is somehow faster than 20 fps from Canon. That makes no sense. It's like saying that 150 mph from Porsche is faster than 150 mph from Ferrari.

How it is achieved is not the point. Yes the sensor readout of the Sony is faster, but I imagine the processing power of the Digic X image processor is faster. It's the total speed of the imaging pipeline that matters. And the R5/R6 does not overheat at all when shooting stills at any frame rate and there are no problems with bursts or buffering. In fact it is the a9/a9II that may take some extra time to clear its buffer and not allow you to adjust anything while it does so.

I give Sony kudos for their stacked sensor: I think it's great technology. But let's also face the reality that Canon has caught up with Sony in terms of mirrorless AF. They both now have superlative AF systems.

To me it's about the usability of the electronic shutter in action situations. And that's all about the read speed. You will have way less rolling shutter weirdness with the Sony.

Rolling shutter for most will not be a problem with either camera. Plenty of people using the R5 and no complaints.

Using the read speed as a differentiator is just one more minor technical detail that doesn't matter to most people.

For those deciding between the two, what will matter most will things like handling and ergonomics, which one feels best in your had, which one you find easier to operate, which one you want to shoot with more. That should be the main differentiator for most users and everyone has to make up their own mind.

You've all made valid points. Ergonomics, as Thoughts points out, is extremely important, because you'll get keepers more easily from a camera that handles well, than from one that does not, everything else being equal.

But it's equally true that sports photographers, and those who view their images, consider rolling shutter artefacts to be highly undesirable.

It would be interesting to see the R5 and a9ii in a comparison panning test, of a car travelling at a fixed speed with vertical poles in the background, to see which one of them has the least rolling shutter.

I suspect that the a9ii would win, because it is designed purely as a sports camera, while the R5 is designed as a more rounded multi-purpose camera.

Interesting that the R5, as you note, which is really designed as an all around camera, is more than good enough to be compared to the more pro oriented and more expensive a9II. Ironically, Canon also has the R6, at $2000 less than the a9II, which also compares favorably and has similar resolution.

Both Canon models have better video capabilities and ergonomics.

The car with vertical pole test is interesting, but how many sports shooters are taking images of a car traveling fast with poles in the background? I'm big into auto racing, and the photos I see of race cars do not usually have a sequence of vertical poles in the background. Of course most sports shooters are taking photos of something other than auto racing.

I still maintain that for the vast majority of users the slight advantage in read speed and less rolling shutter for the a9II will not matter. In fact most sports pro's are using Canon and Nikon pro DSLR models with no problems.

Thoughts - "vertical poles" was intended just as an example, for the purpose of conducting a comparison test. Almost all sports venues have vertical elements in the frame (hurdles, banners, stands, walls etc). Rolling shutter can also potentially affect wheels, which can take on a slightly oval shape rather than circular, and can affect the straightness of golf clubs etc. Most of these artefacts don't bother me, but it clearly bothers some, so it is desirable if they are minimised or eliminated.

I believe DSLRs are a better tool for sports photography (and most other genres) because they have:

very clear, lag-free OVFs
mechanical shutters up to 16fps with no rolling shutter
AF acquisition & tracking that equals most MILCs
better ergonomics

But I guess that is irrelevant in a discussion about the relative merits of two MILCs...

@ paulfulper - maybe its time to update your gear list as it says you only shoot Nikon. What lens did you use when shooting birds with 95% failure rate and getting low fps?

Well, maybe you are doing something fundamentally wrong if your failure rate with both cameras is >80%?

When I shot seagulls with my lowly A6600 and 1655 I had 100% success.

Your instagram shots show even at that small size strong noise reduction effects and grislyness. Are you using dark tele lenses? Aperture closed too much? ISO set too high manually?

P.S: In another post you wrote "I use the Sony own 70-300 ,my favorite lens now ,on A9ll , it gives me noise free photos at 25.600 iso".

This is of course rubbish.

However, most of your instagram shots are lousy exactly in that regards, so what happened?

I am sorry but you don't come across as too competent with your gear :-)
I'd recommend getting some advice from zackiedawg here in this forum.

tell us how you really feel lol. This was a bit mean. Are you having a bad day?

@James: I guess you haven't looked at the instagram pictures? Many are an extreme contrast to "Paul"s claims of "noisefree shots at ISO 25.6k". Many are very noisegrainy and that to be visible at instagram size level says a lot.

I didn't mean to say that he is a lousy photographer but that several shots are technically, "lousy exactly in that regard" of noise.

Add to that his disappointment with the A9II coupled to the FE70-300 with its AF being a 95% fail (!) rate in his experience and you will have to admit that all of this doesn't quite match up, unless he is doing something really wrong in his shooting work flow.

I have seen splendid bird shots from snapa and even better ones from Zackiedawg, both using APSC equiment, so recommending "Paul" to make contact is an earnest proposal.

Hi @James F168 ,actually I'm having a good day , I don't worry about negative comments ,some people are chronically depressed ,eternally unhappy so they go to forums to vent because of their sad life , I forgive him , if he was to post on Instagram I'll be the first to click like and write a positive comment for him but he probably doesn't know what positive means.

@paul: I am on Instagram and haven't received a negative comment yet.

You don't need to forgive me BTW. I was actually trying to help you, strange as that may sound to you. Checkout zackiedawg, he has some posts on camera settings for BIF that may help you to finally make use of the potential of your gear.

You claim to have a nearly total AF fail rate with 6k worth of top of the line FF gear, why not think a bit about my guess that you probably are doing something really wrong in your workflow with your gear, especially when there are many that don't face such issues?

You claim noisefree pictures with this gear but many of your instagram shots suffer from excessive noise. How is anyone supposed to make sense of these conflicting facts?

Some food for thought hopefully....

too many blackouts when doing high fps with OVF

@Paul: Check out https://rogerhunt.photography/smaller-birds

He is using "dated" gear 7D MkII and 5D MkIV and his shots are very impressive. I still don't believe that similar results are not possible with your gear.

Of course I don't know how many non-keepers he has :-)
He also has a hints and tips section, maybe you can find something helpful to you.

then your settings are way way off... if not then you need to check out some tutorials, cos my BIF success rate went up 80% odd when I got my A9 (mkI) compared to my 5D mk IV.

paulfulper - I'm not trying to be rude or "funny", but if you can't get a higher keeper rate than 5% with an a9ii, it isn't the fault of the camera. I get a keeper rate (i.e. razor sharp) of about 60%, and I only use a Canon 5Dkiv, which is nowhere near as capable as an a9ii for BIF.

I'd really recommend you to study a few youtube tutorials by BIF experts - there are many of them, demonstrating how to get the best from a whole variety of cameras.

My advice, FWIW, would be to use aperture priority and have the lens at maximum aperture, which will ensure that you get the fastest possible shutter speed in any lighting condition, to freeze the movement. Set the camera to Auto ISO and restrict the sensitivity to 200-800, or maybe 1600 ISO.

If you have issues with AF tracking, use a small AF zone, which will stop the system from "wasting time" trying to locate the bird elsewhere in the frame. With a little practice you should be able to keep the AF zone over the bird.

Good luck.

paulfulper - my published work consists mostly of images of tropical insects (I don't provide links simply because I value anonymity on the internet).

The remainder of my work (birds, mammals, landscapes etc) is photographed purely for my own pleasure so isn't currently published or on the internet.

As far as bird photography is concerned, I regard myself as competent but I'm certainly not at the top of the league. My advice was meant to be helpful but really there are plenty of people better qualified than myself if you want real serious advice. A google search on "birds in flight tutorials" and you'll find a lot more practical advice from real experts.

@ kurtjofsen: From the comments on color, I suspect that all Canon photographers use default camera settings and shoot jpg files at full auto all the time, also white balance.

And yet they come out top in blind tests :-)

I wonder if this is the result of bad colors?

Mirrorless camera unit share 2019:

Sony 1.65 million units
Canon 940,000 units
FUJIFILM 500,000 units
Olympus 330,000 units
Nikon 280,000 units
Other 240,000 units

Involve me in a blind test and I will tell you which shots are Sony and which are Canon..
Sony was always top notch regarding technical specs. That helps sales especially nowadays. I loved their 80s and 90s VCRs and the TVs, I still have my 90s Sony DAT deck (using it as a D/A converter) and CD player.
I'm actually a fan of such "nerdy" devices and I used to dismiss manufacturers that came up with (in my opinion) excuses for their inferior technical quality.
But today, we no longer have to worry about our VCR showing 220 or 240 lines of resolution. Other things are more important, like colors looking natural, aside from purely numeric values. This approach based on perception is something that I think is not in Sony's DNA.

@ bionet: Take any camera, photograph a color patch, and work calibrated all the way trough the process, and print the result. Then pick the camera brand or camera model from these prints. Fact is that you can't. So much for your "color theory"!

You would not be able to do this even when using jpg and factory defaults!

"I wonder if this is the result of bad colors?"

Falling market share of canon could also be due to bad colors. Who knows?

@sillen...... I would take those numbers with a grain of salt. How many versions of the a6xxx does Sony actively have on the market? 6? How many versions of the a7 does Sony have on the market? 7 or 8? Canon had 4 total. Nikon had 3 total at the end of 2019, one being only released in October. It's no wonder they sold more mirrorless in 2019, they just have more with the 6 year head start they had.

@Sillen
Another poster who pretends DSLR's don't exist.
They still outsell mirrorless cameras and is a market dominated by Nikon and Canon.
That said the A9ii is an excellent camera with class leading specifications in some areas and the whole 'Sony colours are rubbish' is overblown in the same way that Canons lack of DR was.

Ergonomics

Nikon D5 - 90
Sony A9 II - 20

Any guesses as to which username this troll was posting under before? Maybe Noah is preparing for his ban by starting up another account?

There's something called manual focus. Ever heard of it? It works 100% of the time and exactly what you want in focus, is in perfect focus.

For Pro shooter ergonomics of such a small thing in combination with huge pro lens is very limited. A huge limitation with pro lens is with heavy Nikon D5 or D6 but with this small body is extremly limited

@dual12: "There's something called manual focus. Ever heard of it? It works 100% of the time and exactly what you want in focus, is in perfect focus."

Well, if you shoot from a tripod and your object is dead as a brick, this works.
Shooting anything living with low DOF and wide aperture, AF will best you in speed and accuracy and ease of use.

Actually, with Touch AF even dead objects will be focussed faster and more accurately than MF, so your statement above is simply wrong.

" I care about image quality, ergonomics, and workflow speed"
Again, you contradict yourself. MF is NOT ergonomic, it is NOT fast if you want image quality.

Maybe MF is for you the differentiator between yourself and the millions of other photographers out there. If that makes you feel better, so be it. But this doesn't warrant your arrogant "ever heard of", when it is simply your closed-mindedness against modern camera technology.

Just about right.

I use the 9ii for bird photography - almost exclusively - camera is just about perfect. FOUR THINGS NEEDED:
36-42 pixels
speed up the viewfinder a bit
better rear display (touch and res.)
faster card slots (XQD or better)

Everything else - is just fine (20 fps just fine)...

I'll fork over more money any day of the week.

40MP is 100% More than 20MP. I felt a need to say this. ;)

@ tvstaff: We are talking about pixel resolution here!

You completely forgot that resolution goes in two directions, with and height. Your pictures are two dimensional. Simple math.

With 40 Mp instead of 20 Mp, you get just slightly larger linear image scale.

To double resolution, you need to move from 20 to 80 Mp.

Ill buy the camera. You dont have to. But thank you

Crippled how??

You can’t shoot faster than 10 FPS with one and the other has an entry level 24MP sensor (IQ a step below the A7iii).
Both only have 8 bit video.
Just to name a few.

Imagine an A7r3 or A7riv that can shoot 20 FPS and 4K video at 10 bit 4:2:2 from its full sensor readout. It will never happen.

@Jon Jon - "Sony should merger the the A9ii and A7riv to make a camera closer to the R5"

why would sony ever want to duplicate the r5 failures? canon has that market segment locked up already, to their detriment.

r5 is crippled compared to a9/a9ii, it doesn't have a stacked sensor, it uses frame duplication in the evf, and it overheats even when shooting stills.

a7riv is a much better choice for hi-rez shooting, including with a huge native lens lineup that canon will never be able to match, in part because canon has always been a proprietary closed mount system... even fuji finally got around to opening up x-mount for 3rd-party lens makers, but not canon.

canon is way too late to the milc party, and it shows.

Jon Jon, that's an interesting view. The things the R5 has over the A7RIV are things you can't use for the intended purposes. The video is not reliable enough for the people that need the extra quality to use, the 20fps has too much rolling shutter to be useful for people that actually want to capture action and need the 20fps.

At the end of the day you're paying a lot more, and if you want to shoot action or are serious about filming, you'll not only need a second body but also a second lens kit with a different mount.

I think canon are the ones that should release an offer similar to the A9 that would be actually usable for action.

I’ve seen everything from helicopters to birds to greyhounds to sprinters, all photos taken with the R5 and no rolling shutter that I could see. It’s a fake argument.
If the A7riv could shoot 20 FPS like the R5 the argument would go away and almost no one would consider the A9ii except a few diehard action photographers.

R5 electronic shutter and helicopter
https://youtu.be/4wdlDqd9T20

The way I see is that R5 is crippled high resolution camera compared to A7r4 and it is also a crippled video camera compared to A7s3.

R5 is crippled in a way that it is neither the best of still or video world.

Canon users have been asking a competitive MILC FF from Canon. Canon released the R5 but overdone it. From what i'm hearing from Canon users, they actually don't want all those headline video features rather have a reliable Stills camera with a decent price. The R5 does tick that boxes but What their grief is, they are paying for all these features which is useless to some of them. Again, Canon failed to listen to their users.
Canon keeps telling that they have these professional (couple of thousands) whom they consult and use as testers... Who are these experts which missed these limits during their test.

But to be fair R5 is a great overall camera (not referring to the video features). It's a mix between A9ii and A7Riii. Kudos to Canon for achieving that. It would be interesting to see if Sony follows Canon's footsteps and release a similar camera.

Handsome90 If you remove the video features and the 20fps that can’t be used for action, where is the R5 better than the A7RIII?

I never used the word better. It only leads to brand wars. I am giving credit to Canon where credit is due. All tools have trade offs. A9ii has no rolling shutter but suffers in dynamic range and resolution. A7Riii/iv has better resolution but suffers in rolling shutter. With the R5 it’s not either this or that. It has a bit of both, which I find intriguing.

Its not the canon that is a problem. They are making good to great cameras all the time. Its their hypocrite fanbase that troll around here that is a nuisance.

That's exactly what I find that doesn't work on the canon. Not great in resolution, not great for action. A camera that isn't great at anything but still costs a lot.

Canon did an amazing job with the R5 when you compare it with the previous versions they had. But in the global scale of things, it's an incredibly overprice camera if you take into consideration what it can actually produce on a sustainable and reliable level.

@PAtunes, “A camera that isn't great at anything but still costs a lot.”

Come on man, that isn’t being fair! It has industry leading IBIS and excellent autofocus. It has good enough rolling shutter for non-sports photographers and good enough resolution for someone like me. I guess Sony’s overall camera is A7iii. People are still shooting with A7iii and pretty happy with it even though it doesn’t have game changing features, right?. Moreover some have been recorded photos of hummingbirds with straight wings. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64228089.

About costs I have a feeling the upcoming Sony cameras won’t be cheap if basing it on the price of A7siii.

The main point of my premise is that all tools have trade offs and buy the one that fit your needs.

Sony make specialised cameras whilst Canon is going for a good overall camera. I understand the pros and cons of both strategies.

About Canon fanboys I have encountered them and I don’t agree with them.

You can get excellent AF and great IBIS with a similar resolution on an A7RIII that costs $2000 less.

And you're comparing the R5 with the A7III that costs less than half of the price. It's a different user.

Just look at the price of the A7RIV. Cheaper and more resolution. Great AF, great IBIS.

I don't get who's the user that wants a camera that isn't as good as the alternatives at anything but is willing to pay more for it. Who's the photographer that wants 20fps for slow moving scenes, or 8k for a couple of minutes at the beginning of the day. It feels like an amateur camera for a pro price.

Thoughts R Us, what I see is you repeating the same stuff again and again. It feels like you're trying to blame others for what you're doing...

TRU as expected starts his or hers unsubstantiated rant. When you ask for evidence he or she never provides one.

"You will see the most vitriolic comments from Sony promoters all over the place." "Sony fans took this to a whole other level and everyone knows it" Ahem have you seen the comment section of A9ii and A7Siii articles. Why do you have more than a hundred comments under those articles? Yeah but it's all Sony users fault.

Did you notice that your spamming buddy Willow W got banned? Did you notice how many threads he takes part in or started by him that gets locked? Have you seen the number of comments/posts written by WW that get deleted? Has any of the Sony commenters like Mikeran, me, xzaar, Bigbraford, DeepDEEPPurple, etc., get banned?

But yeah Sony users are bad and Canon users are good.

For the record I don't think Sony cameras are perfect. Only fanboys/girl use words such as better or superior. Buy the camera that fits your needs!

@TRU we are tired of your hypocrisy, we are tired of your immature comments.

Hypocrisy evidence here https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7s-iii-initial-review/comments?comment=4644840547
And here https://m.dpreview.com/articles/8653213690/canon-r5-r6-overheat-claims-tested-stills-shooting-setup-quickly-cut-into-promised-capture-times/comments?comment=2556051037

We come up with facts based on the evidence from Canon manuals, websites, videos and photos. All you come up with is oh yeah we must be getting paid by Sony or the talking points given by Sony. Evidence of your immature comments are shown below. 1.https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7s-iii-initial-review/comments?comment=4037912383

2. https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7s-iii-initial-review/comments?comment=5086636066

Take a chill pill, put on your big boy pants and come back later when you actually have evidence for anything.

@ Fotoni: Why on earth would many use the noisy mechanical shutter instead of the silent and no tear & wear full electronic shutter? The rolling shutter effect is very close to what you get with a mechanical vertical slit shutter traversing the sensor!

Other cameras with full electronic shutter are noticeable slower, also the new Canon 5D and 6D.

You obviously don't know what the A9/A9II is all about.

Oh, Canon R5 and R6, it should be.

Fotoni is a Sony hater.

@ tbcass: we are so generous that we even enlighten Sony haters! 😎

just the reason i want to buy the a9 silent shooting for wildlife is a godsend i own the a7r3 and that mechanical shutter carries for a quarter of mile ,my olympus omd shoots 18fps in silent mode and i notice the difference in keepers due to this frame rate and silent shutter . Mr fotoni sorry but you are misguided take your choice £6500 for dslr d6/1dx mk3 or r5 which is suspect in many ways great headline specs ,just poorly executed in real world use .

The A9 mechanical shutter was based on the old 5FPS mechanical shutter that has been around for 5-6 years. The A9II has the 10FPS mechanical shutter similar to what was initially introduced on the A7RIII.

The new shutter is much quieter than the old one. And I can ASSURE you, it’s way quieter than the 1DXIII’s mirror slapping racket.

But as I said. Most people who use the A9II use the electronic shutter which as you already know is completely silent. So shutter “loudness” is basically irrelevant for A9/A9II users.

Why was the A9 mechanical shutter limited to 5 FPS? The equally old Sony A99ii mechanical shutter was capable of 12fps.

Tbcass the mirrorless body design is completely different than the SLT design. For whatever reason when Sony designed the early E-amount cameras the shutters were all 5 FPS.

And why didn’t Sony prioritize a faster mechanical shutter on a sports body? Because they had the game changing electronic shutter with no blackout and figured no one was going to use the mechanical shutter. And they were basically right.

On this camera the mechanical shutter is for specialty uses. On every other camera, the electronic shutter is for specialty purposes.

I've been on this site since mirrorless was new and watched years of weirdly partisan brand hatred for Sony products span thread after thread with scores of irate fanboys posting inaccurate, emotional arguments about why an old DSLR is superior, a phone, a film camera, any other mirrorless product BUT Sony... It gets tiresome, then hilarious, then downright surreal, after a while.

Yep. For sure.

@sinsibill: Just to clear up a misperception: the criticism of Sony products was spurred on by an aggressive online approach by Sony fans...some might even say a deliberate strategy...

That's why Roger Cicala of Lens Rentals posted this:
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken, 1917

*Sonyfanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy with other equipment. Roger Cicala, 2018

--Now brand wars and fanboyism is nothing new, but please...Sony fans took it to a whole other level. And every website knows that. Ask the admin of Nikon Rumors, Canon Rumors, etc. Read the threads of equipment other than Sony and see how the Sony promoters take over with negative vitriol. It's rather obvious.

So please don't give me this innocent routine as if Sony is some victim.

Thoughts R Us, on a post that got a canon fanatic probably banned for posting the same stuff over and over again, you're claiming that it's the Sony users that are fanboys?

And look at that comment from Roger Cicala. Look at the posts here explaining over and over again why a totally irrelevant camera for this conversation was a better camera because it could do everything except the unique features that make this camera worth it...

Sony was criticised way before there were enough users to be fanboys. And when the critics are that Sony isn't a camera manufacturer, it just shows it's hate for the brand and not even a problem with the products they create.

Let's look at that post from R Cicala and ask why he wrote that 2 years ago? It was because he saw even in the comments on his site that the Sony fans were overly zealous and aggressive.

Ask the admin of Nikon Rumors, Canon Rumors, etc. Look at the comments of the Sony faithful on threads for Canon products like the R5, the 1DXIII and pretty much every release going back years.

Some brand arguing will go on in any forum...but everyone knows that the Sony fans have taken it to a whole new level. That has spurred a backlash. But even then, again, read the comments on the R5 discussion that was featured on the home page...it is one after another of Sony fans relentlessly repeating the talking points, which also include the same stale jokes. But it also occurred for the multiple articles on the 1DXIII, etc...

Thoughts R Us, do the same check on Sony forums with canon fans creating topics. Check the A7RIV, A7III reviews. Even canon shooters are criticising canon cameras.

Roger Cicala is one person that has one opinion. And if someone prefers one brand, they may see the criticisms agains that brand much more evident and not see the criticisms agains another...

Just look at this review and you'll see something you don't see in any canon reviews. The repetition of fake information again and again from canon users... If you count the comments, the people that have commented the most are probably canon users... If you go to the Sony A7SIII, you'll probably see the same... And always posting the same stuff...

cbphoto123 Same place where canon users say no one will shoot 8k for more than 20min? And that everyone can stop for half an hour to shoot 5more minutes? Same place where the original R had an eye af as good as Sony and now the R5 has a much better af, just as good as Sony?

Cbphito, you must have missed all of the “who needs to shoot more than 20 minutes of video anyway. I’d poke my eyes out if I had to watch more than 20 minutes of your kids recital”. And “ just hook a USB battery pack up to the camera to solve all of your battery problems.

Didn’t you see those comments???

No. I’m quoting the Canon fanboys who justify the R5 the same way you say the Sony people justified the bad battery life.

You have become them. And you don’t even see it.

And I accept the ergonomics weren’t/aren’t for everyone. I agree with the comment in the A9II review that the UI can be slightly laggy at times (changes to exposure comp dial take a fraction of a sec to take effect). And I think they need to improve the writing speed to SD cards via new card technology for starters. Menu access and improved image review while the camera is writing from the buffer.

There are definitely areas to improve.

Maybe I went too far in putting you in that fan-boy group. But if you read the comments on the R5 articles you will see the roles have reversed. The Canon fanboys have become what you say the Sony fanboys were.

cbphoto123
Sony stopped making DSLRs 8 years ago so how were Nikon and Canon superior to non existent Sony DSLRs.

Battery life...
You know. The same shortcomings of the Sony’s from 8 years ago.

cbphoto123
Fair enough but whether the Canikon DSLRs have been superior to Sony mirrorless is a matter of opinion so IMO you should substitute "better for my purposes" for "superior". How much experience have you had with Sony mirrorless cameras? Disclaimer, I have never used a Sony mirrorless camera so this is not a fanbxx response. I just have a bug up my ass about making claims of superiority based on personal subjective experiences.

cbphoto123 You’re claiming that Sony users are different because they justify flaws with the camera. Then when I point out that canon users do the same, You think it makes no sense to refer it.... if the Sony users are that unique, canon users wouldn’t be doing the same...

cbphoto. Oh. I see you edited your comment. Before you challenged me by saying "how many people said the battery life is no issue?" Anyway, here's the start to the answer to that question. (You should have checked BEFORE you posted.)

Well about 15 times by this clown:
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r5-initial-review?comment=0644649872

But there are others:
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r5-initial-review?comment=4565358640 (He says almost exactly what you said Sony fans said - carry more batteries)

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r5-initial-review?comment=8321981497

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r5-initial-review?comment=6461838244

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r5-initial-review?comment=3935060038

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-r5-initial-review?comment=2180163545

These are all DIFFERENT people mind you, Not the same people posting the same thing. Should I keep going???

And Canon brought the 8K time limit response on themselves by overhyping that camera as as God's gift to videographers...

MikeRan
I think for the vast majority of users the battery life of mirrorless is not an issue but it's something that DSLR Fanboiz can jump on and argue about. Back in the days of film we were limited by the cost and inconvenience of 36 exposure rolls. If we took 100 photos in a day it was a lot. Nowadays people shoot willy nilly and review their photos on the battery draining LCD so they get "only" 300 +/- shots per charge and complain about it.

I agree. I agreed back when it was a challenge for Sony and I agree now. And my comments on the R5 article are consistent with that.

But I did comment strongly against the guy who said the solution to the R5 battery problem was to hang a battery pack from the USB port. That suggestion is ridiculous. I shoot A9’s and have spare batteries in the bag. Duh...

I’m just saying all the things that the Canon people are claiming Sony fans said 7-8 years ago to deflect the shortcomings, the Canon fans are saying now. As I said. The Canon fans have become the Sony fanboys.

3.5 years ago, not 2 years ago. But yes. (Sony’s new battery was released initially with the original A9)

cbphoto123 I’m a fashion photographer. The advantages of the AF on Sony cameras made much more difference than the battery duration or the lens selection on any DSLR. For me, DSLR were replaced for commercial work with the A7II.

cbphoto123
All those reasons, which are perfectly valid BTW, are why you felt the DSLRs were superior which in turn made it your opinion. For other people the smaller size, quieter operation, greater PDAF coverage, superior, at the time, DR and high ISO performance and better live view may have made the Sonys preferable. It appears that DPR put more value in those aspects than the ones you find important.

cbphoto123 The images we shoot in the morning for ecom are live in the afternoon... a pentax 67 wouldn’t cut it.

And it’s not just about getting the image in focus. I can do that with a DSLR as well, but the process is very different.

cbphoto123
Since neither you nor I really know what the vast majority of photographers think I can neither agree or disagree with your statement. Sales rarely are a reflection of quality or usefulness and instead are a reflection of familiarity and brand recognition.

go on tbcass, find people shooting with mirrorless cameras before they were invented. Go find sport photographers shooting with the A9 before it was released.

Just ignore the article posted here a few weeks ago when AP decided to go with Sony for all their in-house photographers...

cbphoto123, look at the wedding and portrait industry. You'll quickly see how the SLR are now less and less. People swapped 5d's for Sony and Fuji cameras.

MikeRan, may I ask why you posted so many negative comments under the R5 review.
Is that not the very issue you are complaining about here.

And did I miss, did anyone answer my question? Just how loud is the A9ii mechanical shutter? I’ve read about other cameras having “whisper quiet “ shutters and photographers having no complaints at weddings while using them.
Is the A9ii mechanical shutter quiet?

I like the sensory feedback of a real shutter. That’s a discussion for another time.

That’s the thing. You’re not “the other side”. You make it sound like there are only Sony brand loyalists in this thread. Look around. You are not alone on the other side.

And to be honest you challenged me on the R5 suggesting the only fault canon fans were denying were related to video. You downplayed the battery life piece, edited your post (after I read it and before or after I posted all the links). I am also a realist and recognize faults in Sony cameras, but you deny there are Canon fans that are just like the Sony fans.

You are in denial. Do you expect likes for that? Sorry to be blunt about it, but Canon is not exempt from Fanboyism, no matter how much TRU posts that old quote from Roger Cicala.

cdphoto
I'm going to repeat what i said to you earlier. "Sales rarely are a reflection of quality or usefulness and instead are a reflection of familiarity and brand recognition."
As far as Sports, that is a small subset of photography and most sports photographers started long before there were mirrorless cameras suitable for sports so they built up a collection of lenses and bodies which they weren't going to suddenly abandon just because a suitable mirrorless came along. It will take 5-10 years before mirrorless takes over in the professional sports field.
As far as you having a balanced conversation, you are not doing a good job of it because all you are doing is repeating the same discredited arguments from 5+ years ago.

Yep. I shoot only Sony bodies. Despite the fact that you said they have had no advantages. That said my favorite lens these days is the $6000 canon lens you neglected to mention from my camera list.

Anyway.

And I have defended the R5 from bashing on at least a few occasions. Usually there are plenty of Canon fanboys that beat me to it though. They don’t need my comments.

It’s a logical conclusion from this statement:

“Canon and Nikon certainly fell behind in full frame mirrorless.. but until recently their DSLR's were superior in nearly every aspect to Sony (except Canons DR). I would now argue that Canon (for the most part) has leaped ahead of Sony in full frame mirrorless...”

I would say another issue is you tried to have a rational conversation under a completely irrational comment by the original commenter.

I also don’t respect that you didn’t acknowledge you were wrong about no more than 2 people making excuses for battery life I. That edited comment. (You know the one)

cbphoto123, I shoot a lot of different brands. Mamiya, bronica, Sony, pentax, Yashica, canon, Ricoh...

The problem is not the brand of the camera. For a fashion photographer, canon hasn’t released anything relevant in the last 5 years. Even the R5 now would just give me the same as an A7RIII would.

Put yourself in my shoes. Ignore the brands and think about it. Would you pay double for a canon? I’m not gonna buy the overpriced canon lenses. Financially for me canon makes no sense at the moment.

Canon brought the overheating BS on themselves. For months they had everyone talking about how awesome 8K was going to be. Canon and canon alone is the reason there were 500 comments about overheating. And an article dedicated to it.

You can’t blame that on the Sony fanboys.

You are a troll denyer, just like the rest of ‘em.

Sorry you’re upset you post trolling comments on a Sony article and get no likes.

'@sinsibill: Just to clear up a misperception: the criticism of Sony products was spurred on by an aggressive online approach by Sony fans...some might even say a deliberate strategy...'

There's no 'misperception' (sic). You and other(s) here are Sony brand haters. It's as plain as the ridiculous spun-out post count in this subthread, and has been a things since Sony bought Minolta and developed the SLT lineup, followed by E-Mount and the NEX, A7, etc. series.

Interestingly, I recognize a couple of old (we're talking 10-15 years on this site) Sony users here wading through the same old anti-E rhetoric and the Sony bashers always have new names or accounts, 2 or 3 years or less.

I joined DPR in 2010 when my mom was in the hospital in SF in 2010 and I'd just bought an E-PL1 to play with while waiting for her surgery and outcome. 10 years later, it's the same Sony trashing from the same Canikon types (only now you can't dismiss mirrorless as a fad).

You can save 1000$ and buy a camera and watch it cool down for 2 years.

Thats exaggeration , its like 3 days to cool down, by then then moment is over.

"Thats exaggeration ,"

:-D :-D :-D

@CHALLENGER100 - "That`s why -put the new toy in a glass box and watch for next 2 years.?"

a9/a9ii is not a toy, it's a professional camera that has a blackout-free evf and the best eyeaf on the market.

pros use a9 for event shooting like weddings because the af is more accurate than anything else, and the a9/a9ii does it with sony real-time tracking, which is unequalled in the industry: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn0fh4XHpLY

these are not just sports cams.

I understand. Which is why I mentioned design priorities. A different tool for a different job. The fact still remains that for mechanical shutter shooting, it has slightly higher noise. Anyway, it is not material in the real world, not for ES applications.

It depends on one's needs. As Mike alludes to, in his line of work he needs that ultimate speed advantage.

But you do bring up the greater context: most people these days feel that the smartphone is more than adequate for their photography needs. They value the convenience and sharing capabilities more so than the absolute technical performance.

We saw the exact same thing happen in the world of HiFi audio. Technology advanced on many fronts until all the audio equipment was more than enough for most, and differences became marginal. Then the iPod came along, and then the smartphone, and convenience won out over absolute sound quality.

Now many of those same audio companies get most of their revenue from selling accessories to smartphones, like bluetooth speakers. Otherwise they cater to a very dedicated audiophile niche.

Interesting times ahead.

This is a specialized camera. I actually think most people buying this are professional journalists or sports shooters, and not just tech enthusiasts. I think most people will know if they need this or not and will get the camera that works for them.

@Daft Punk

I own the A9II and have never shot sports—ever. However, as an event photographer (part-time), I’ve been hired to shoot action in low light settings with flickering LEDs that cause banding when shot with electronic shutter at 1/250 sec+, which is where I try to stay at the minimum to shoot people at events. I’ve shot those same events with my A7RIII and had to use mechanical shutter, which is loud in some spaces and doesn’t focus nearly as reliably.

I also reach for the A9II when shooting wildlife (Yellowstone, Teton, etc) and astrophotography, because it reliably locks on and focuses on such action and its low light performance in phenomenal. Also reach for it when shooting portraits for the same reasons as above. When I want a reliable autofocusing camera I reach for that camera first

It’s exceptional AF also makes it a very good camera for video.

To your point/s, I primarily use less capable cameras for mostly everything else, because they are more than good enough.

Daft Punk

About 50% of my photography is sports but since I can't afford one of these sports cameras I find my RX10iv does a great job.

Joel - A camera (any camera) is about more than just one single aspect of its capabilities.

You have to look at it from the point of view of the prospective purchaser. No one is going to buy a Z6 as a sports camera (burst speed too slow), and few can afford a Nikon D5/6 or a Canon 1Dxii/iii. The D850 is a superb camera, probably the best overall DSLR ever made, but no way can it compete with the AF tracking and burst capabilities of an a9ii or an R5/6.

Regarding image quality, yes the a9ii lags behind some of the opposition. But for the sports photographers who this camera is aimed at, noise, tonality, colour and dynamic range are secondary concerns. What they seek most is instant AF acquisition and class-leading AF tracking.

J_o_e_l
I just did as you suggested and don't see much difference.

And?

Are we suppose to be impressed?

Chelsea who?

Her main complain was the Sony menu and R5 AF was better. Sony will release the A7R5 with better AF and with the new menu... She'll switch back again. She can do it, they have lots of money to switch back and forth.
She can't be a reference point for people to decide on buying a camera... surely.
i have least experience with Sony system and menu, just started playing with A9II on loan. i don't see anything difficult to learn especially the menu system. would I prefer a Canon menu, sure but not because it's better... only to do with familiarity.
it's almost like She haven't used the A7Riii enough.
I find Sony offers so many direct access customisation. looks like she is not the heavy customisation type.
Canon menu's has grown too, they've added more pages and functions to a point where it's complex to. the AF scene is some of them... good thing they started reducing the scene types. But that's what to expect from modern cameras... there is just so much flexibility.

Sony won't release anything for long time and she is big influencer. And with bad sales on a7s3 and a9mk2 its not looking good for sony.

@purist, you wrote “And with bad sales on a7s3 and a9mk2 its not looking good for sony.”

The only person who seems to care about finances of any camera company is you. You seemed to be a bit concerned about the finances of Sony so it seems you own Sony stocks 🤣

So one person switches from Sony to Canon makes Sony doomed. Next when she switches to Sony from Canon, she will be paid shill and Canon would do just fine without her.

@Zxaar, “ So one person switches from Sony to Canon makes Sony doomed. Next when she switches to Sony from Canon, she will be paid shill and Canon would do just fine without her.”

Cough TRU cough!

Did anyone notice most of these accounts were made recently in 2020? I bet all these are the same one person, happy dad. williow w, purist and about a dozen more etc etc

That lady changes cameras more often than the oil im most cars, hard to take her seriously anymore. She also comparing the r5 with a7r3. 😂

This purist guy seems like he has top sales info on cameras. Or he's just an idiot.

I simply make a fun comment and trust this forum make it to a religion war.

Purist Pentax sold more cameras than Canon and nikon combined at one point of time.

This all changes all the time.

@purist "Pentax who ?"

Exactly. Now you got it.

It could be Canon who? tomorrow.

@zxaar. Exactly, anyone that thinks otherwise in this day and age is either a fool or uninformed or both!

Covid has changed the whole World more then some may think. A great example is Virgin (as in the holiday company). Top of the ladder for service and quality. The company the others would love to beat. I can confirm (along with 10s of thousands of other customers awaiting refunds) that they are now at the very bottom of the ladder. Just one example of how the great and mighty have fallen.

Certainly not a easy / good time to be a giant like Canon, Nikon or Sony!

@purist hate to burst your bubble but you may want to check out the bestsellers on BH Photo. A7SIII is outselling the R5 and even the 3 year old A7III is outselling the R6.... That may change in time but I was surprised to see that.
I own the A9 and I realize its a niche camera. The A9/A9ii are the worst-selling Sony full frame cameras they make. It's for a targeting audience that need/want its capabilities.

@purist

//Canon tops world market with 45% from all brands.//

Yes, but the trouble is those cameras are mostly aps-c DSLRs. When mirrorless hits tipping point those DSLR users are going to be shared out across all the players. Some will go to the Canon M series, but probably at least half will go to Sony A6xxx.

The FF market isn't going to go back to Canon - that would require Canon scooping up all new users AND getting existing Sony users to switch and that just isn't going to happen. The best that Canon can hope for is to stop to or slow the FF bleed, but even that's doubtful when cameras like the R6 are much dearer than the Sony alternative.

Then the A7rIV will launch at about 2K and the A7r3 will drop down to 1.5K or lower. That makes the 2.5K R6 a very hard sell, especially with limited third party lens options.

@Purist

//And on this bombshell Chelsea northrup just switched to Canon from sony. Checkmate.//

Lol. I remember her videos about switching from the D850 to Sony...

We have no idea what cameras Youtube bloggers use privately or if they even take pictures. Jared Polin made a big fuss about switching from Nikon to Sony, taking all his gear down to the camera store. Then he tells us he has six Z cameras 'back at the factory' and the Nikon 70-200/2.8 on order. You think he's going to shoot his videos with a 70-200 in the studio?

These people make whatever video they decide to and they do it for commercial reasons - to make money for their channel.

Chelsea's 'switching' video has more than a 1000 down votes. I wouldn't be surprised if you don't hear much more about her 'switch' after they see how unpopular it is with subscribers... :)

@rubberdials. OMG, just watched the first couple minutes of Chelseas “switching” video. Not only painful to watch such cr@p but I cant believe people fall for this. Got the thumbs down from me (now at 1.2k by the way). Personally dont give a rats @rse what she does but to put it on youtube in this way makes me want to vomit!!

@winter1

Yeah, it's a painful watch. When she claimed to be excited by the 600 and 800 f11 lenses I nearly died laughing - they posted a video of them driving an £80K BMW 840i a few weeks ago.

Tony can be quite thorough, but they make odd mistakes like shooting videos at f1.2 and I think the quality has definitely slackened off since they hit a million subscribers. I noticed that they stoped going to a lot of the launches as well. They were the only ones who didn't cover the Sony 24/1.4GM launch.

If I was a subscriber I'd do a video about why I'm switching from Tony & Chelsea, and super-lame videos like the switching ones would be the reason.

Is that the best you can come up with?

KIng Penguin - If you think that high burst speeds are used primarily by "spray and pray" amateurs without talent then you are out of touch with reality.

The human brain and hands simply cannot react fast enough to catch an athlete with their arms and legs in the "perfect" composition, or the moment when a footballer makes contact with the ball, or the moment when a bird in flight has its wings "just right".

Burst photography is an essential *tool* used every day by the world's leading prrofessional sports and wildlife photographers, to deliver the finest photography that you see in the media and in photoraphy competitions.

KIng Penguin - Yes I'd agree that burst shooting (and many other aspects of camera design) are only truly utilised by a minority of users. People can easily by hyped into buying features they don't need and will never use.

But this article is about a professional-level camera, and while there will certainly be a few people who simply want what they believe is the "fastest" or "best" for its own sake, I'd imagine that at least 90% of a9ii purchasers are serious amateur/pro sports or wildlife photographers, who would put the burst capabilities to good use.

So at what point between manually advancing film and this camera's (and others) fps does it turn in to spray and pray? 5 fps, 10, 12, etc. Just curious.

@King Penguin OK I'll dumb it down. What frame is spray and pray in your opinion? 1 fps, 6 fps, 10 fps, 12 fps, 20 fps, or 21+ fps?

@ King Penguin Me thinks thou doth protest too much

It's clear that you think so highly of your skill and craft that others using any other method regardless of the environment , or tool for the job are clearly below you and are using "spray and pray". Why not just say that?

"I haven’t changed anything, you really need to read my original comment without prejudice and not be so sensitive."

No body is sensitive here we read nonesense everyday.

Acceptable? People that spend $4500 on a camera body are usually not too concerned about the cost of lenses. Just ask any Leica user.

I didn't even mention the R5. R5 also deserves the criticism it's getting.
But historically the big bullies in the photo community have always been Sony users. Recently it's mostly sony users and their big mouth youtuber overlord.

it’s not about criticism. it’s about 2 guys posting together hundreds of posts of negativity under a single article.

criticizing flaws of a camera is welcome, but posting the same false claims over and over again isn’t exactly criticism. it’s trolling.

@ Funny Valentine: If your claim here was true for Sony, it would be exactly the same for discussions on all other camera brands. Users of a certain brand are not different from users of other brands. Some, like me, are using more than one brand.

Reality is that your claim is not true. Those not using other camera brands than the one that is discussed in the news section, are rarely visiting the forum for balanced and factual critisism. Most are there just to use specs etc. to bash products they don't use or like themselves, and they do not allow others to be happy with.

What is really funny here, is that your gear list says you are not even a Sony user! And where is your factual and serious critisism on other brands than what you use yourself? Nowhere!

Here you only contribute to the discussion is those "Sony fans" ... name calling!

There is a difference between critiquing and criticising. Over here and in the comment sections of many articles it falls under the latter one. Also some are well documented to constantly spewing false truths and it’s tiring to constantly fact-check them

Funny Valentine, one thing is to criticise a camera, another is to try a fool people that don't know better.

I get it that some people just read "20fps" and think any camera that does 20fps does it the same way. The problem is when you've explained to the same guys over and over again why that's not the case, and why this camera is different, and they still just ignore it and keep repeating it over and over again trying to fool people.

Criticising is fine, not understanding something is fine. Trying to actively spread misinformation, not so much.

I am a Sony user. My main cameras are canon and olympus and the olympus has a sony sensor inside. So that makes me a sony user too.

Let me write back Funny Valentine’s “review” of A7siii so that people will start taking him or her seriously. Yes this person made a new comment in the A7siii article and brought R5 into a Sony article. Funny valentine previously wrote

“Yes, the Canon R5 is the superior camera in every way. It's sad that the competition has to pay youtube troll channels and salesmen to bring it down. The A7SIII is worse:
- worse IBIS
- worse ergonomics
- worse weather sealing
- worse overheating: independent test proved it
- worse AF
- worse photo capabilities
- worse shutter lifespan
- worse dust cleaning sensor
And yet those paid youtube channel promote the A7SIII as the "better camera".
I admit the A7SIII has some good points too:
- 9 million dots EVF
- dual card slot compatible with both SD and CFe
- better low light
- better 4K
- smaller size
But that's it.”

No bias detected there!

Source https://m.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-a7s-iii-initial-review/comments?comment=5589990185

I agree. I don't think censorship would be a good idea, and people should be able to post whatever they like (within reason).

But at the moment guaranteed prominence is given to every comment due to the basic functionality of this feature, and this is encouraging and rewarding poor etiquette. You can see this in seeded comments repeatedly from the same people or from trolls (as I type this there two have just appeared) and then the first reply on others comments.

What we need is not censorship but some form of individual control and a way of discouraging this behaviour through there being no guarantee you'll appear first.

At the moment there is none. So if you want to post 100 times about the same thing, everyone has to read it, again and again. Some may want to read it, but what if I don't want to? I have no options (other than to never come back).

Unless I'm mistaken this will work for all brands and is self-moderating, surely more sustainable than expecting DPR to staff up.

I don't want to silence all criticism, but an option to "ignore" certain posters (like we can in the fora) would certainly be most welcome. Then we could clean up the posts to our own personal desire.

@olstrup: big websites don't want users to be ignored. Because more user interaction means more engagement, more time spent on the website and by consequence it means more "clicks" and more "add revenue". Trolls are a necessary evil for these capitalistic "free" websites. Just look at youtube's biggest photography channels: they're mostly click bait trolls.

"ratings are not very meaningful in this context."
Ratings never are, they are just personal opinions.

After full SONY-DPREVIEW Advetising Agreement

@Challenger100 I would suggest posting proof or an apology

Apology ? Why ? AP to equip all visual journalists globally with Sony imaging products . In today world it is nothing special. Give more you will get better feedback. Journalists get gifts, trips and other things.

Apology for your original unedited comment where you accused DPR of releasing the review once Sony paid them through advertising. That's a claim that you really should back up. I'm guessing you couldn't since you deleted that portion of your post.

This is a choice between a rock and a hard place For DP. I understand that.

Please DPR do this. Certain individuals ruin the comments section for me every time a new camera is reviewed. They particularly seem to hate Sony and Canon cameras, plus any Full Frame camera.

I 100% agree. I badly want the DPR comment section to be a place where I can chat with other enthusiasts about the latest camera gear, but it just isn't. It's a cesspool. I often feel the urge to say something about whatever gear is on offer, but don't bother because I know it will be drowned in a sea of bullsh*t. Instead, when I even bother to read the comments anymore, it's usually because I'm bored and want to see what dumb petty thing DPR's resident cadre of internet a*sholes have found to fight about this time.

@Halftrack check the forums, yiu are bound to find some pitfights, but what you are looking for is there. Moderators do a good job too. Use the threaded tool also, it keeps everything tidy.

Won't happen.
DPR needs the clicks so they can sell ads.

@Willow w
feeling targeted? So you know who we are talking about here...
How about time for reflection then? How do you feel if I am telling you that all your posts are utterly useless and intentionally inflammatory? Have you asked yourself what is the true intention of your posts?
Constructive and interesting posts:
May a suggest starting with explaining what is your actual experience in using the A9 and how the new R5 has been a game changer for you when compared to the A9? Bring evidence, details? Regurgitating online information with a negative spin is useless and toxic. If you are so in love with your R5 get off your computer desk and enjoy shooting instead of being a nuisance here.
DPR has already detailed out pros and cons in their usual well laid out process. We do not need a clueless parrot with litigious intentions.

Targeted???
You admit you go around deliberately targeting people with personal attacks? Wow.

It sad you can't be civil and stay on topic. So I wonder why Sony can't see to fix the bad delay with their controls? I think the review did a good job pointing it out.

Hahahaha...now you know how many of us have felt trying to wade through the comments on the R5 or the 1DXIII or any Canon camera, or for that matter, Nikon...go look at the D6 thread, the D780 thread, or even Fuji...or basically anything not Sony.

I'm going to post this one more time, because it shows that it has been the pro Sony commenters over the last years who have had this initiative on public forums and social media to trash talk other brands:

Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken, 1917

*Sonyfanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy with other equipment. Roger Cicala, 2018

Go take pictures you clowns...

Both took the bait. Easy fishing.

I agree, DPR needs to ban Thoughts R Us, Willow W and all the trolls on their site... The comment section will be so much better to read