Panasonic Lumix DC-S1 review

Err, pretty much all cine lenses are manual focus so it's irrelevant.

But if you're a primary professional videographer that is gonna manual focus then there're better cine cameras with better video specs and more features anyway.

Hybrid shooters need good and reliable autofocus because we tend to not have a dedicated focus puller.

None of your favorite movies were shot with CAF. It is not reliable on any camera. Avoid it.

Nobody's talking about Hollywood blockbuster here, we're talking wedding videos, viral, MV, advertisement and other indie projects.

Why do you think even dedicated professional videographers always complain about the GH5 video autofocus? And many professional videographers have switch from Panasonic to Sony because of video autofocus?

Video autofocus nowaday is very reliable on Sony, Canon and Nikon and is very useful in many cases for indie videographers.

Lack of good AF cine lenses does not make it irrelevant that constantly changing the focus with "normal" AF lenses looks like a mess.

If you know what you are doing, you can tell the camera where to focus, when to focus, and when not to (re)focus. This works really well even on older cameras like my Panasonic G7. Doing otherwise would feel like shooting stills in fully automatic mode (not having the camera in control).

In my opinion Panasonic AF for video is good, but not the best. You may need to wait 1-2s for the camera to refocus, and sometimes it's possible to see very quick "hunting".

Maybe it's just me. Maybe my methods are old school.

P.S. Focus pulling sequences can be programmed into the camera. Standard feature on Panasonics.

Pannumon, you know, you really really should try a camera with actually good video autofocus like Canon DPAF, 3rd gen Sony and Nikon Zs, it's a revelation.

Manual focus is ok when things are pre-setted and your actors are professional and know what they are doing, but when things aren't perfect and chaotic manual focus is simply impractical and unuseable.

People do much better with much less

GrapeJam, I was not talking about manual focus. I was talking about having control over AF.

It is important to know your camera. I have no issues with AF on my G7. But if someone who does not know what he/she is doing would take my camera, press the red video button, and start shooting, we will certainly hear complains that the AF is not working very well.

No camera is perfect. Video AF is probably one of the only clear weakness of S1(R). Still I think the whole issue is totally overblown, often by novices who in fact have not even gone through menu items one-by-one, manual in their hand. No wonder they get bad results when they don't understand the working logic of the camera.

Pannumon, well you might wanna give this guy a look, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-gLXeQj2Uw

He's one of many talented and experienced videographers who switched from the GH5 to A7III with autofocus being one of the primary reasons.

It's interesting the camera actually tracks people's eye/face really well as shown by the boxes that move with the subject. But there's still a lag to really get the person in focus.

I think Panasonic has made huge progress with their video autofocus the last year, including firmware upgrades to GH5/G9. Before the camera would randomly lose the subject, while now it looks like it just has trouble focusing in real time with subjects moving erratically directly towards the camera.

Sorry, wrong thead

A7 mk1 is less than $1K brand new.

There is no way a new FF models is going to be priced around $1000 at this point. The problem is sensor cost; yields on such a large sensor are low. Also these new Panny bodies are very full featured, so no way will they be priced that low.

As to Sony dropping the price on its older model...and keep in mind it was the original A7 that went to sub-$1000...the a7r2 dropped in price but only to $2000...so it's a very old model, Sony may have been willing to take a loss just to move old inventory and entice people into the system.

I remember early 50" plasma flat screens going for $50,000.

But yeah, I don't ever see a new model FF going for $1,000. Kinda pointless. If IQ matters so much to a person to justify FF (since APS-C and even 1" and 4/3 crank out GREAT IQ nowadays), then much more than $1,000 is justified.

But when it comes down to whether a new FF camera model can actually be WORTH less than $1,000, well, Canon answered that question with the R... And, lol, to me Sony kept on answering yes to that question with every camera they ever made up until the 3rd gen a7 line and a9.

@Sir7
You seem to have been very personally affected by the very fine EOS R (OK very middling EOS R). Did one marry your sister or something? It’s just a camera dude.....

"A7 mk1 is less than $1K brand new."

And it shows. Awful camera (IMO, of course).

Lol, Kandid. An R insulted one of my cats so i beat the living lithium out of it! ;)

Nah, i just take it personally when fine camera companies do truly stupid things/rush unready products to market that not only fail to address customer needs, let alone advance the state of the art, so egregiously that it insults their customer base and even photography itself. Blatant actions that put profit above photography. I have nothing against camera companies making money whatsoever. But ONLY if they do so by bettering photography. The R represents everything wrong with the business of photography. "Shame on Canon!" is what I'm saying.

@Sir7
Well fair enough - but I still think that you may be over reacting a bit to what is in the end just a commercial proposition. The market will let Canon know if they screwed up - and by how much....hopefully the next one moves them along a bit...(AND if the cat recovers then you can acknowledge perhaps that the R lenses DO contribute to the art of photography - even if at a price)

For FF sensor cost to come down would require a production volume that we just aren't seeing in the camera market, and the market isn't growing.

Instead of Sony Mk1 put 400€ on top and you have a really nice camera with top notch IQ with the Pentax K1

@Kandid:
My gripe is primarily with the R body. It offers photography nothing. RF glass I'm mixed on. Great quality, but outrageous pricing and obsolete zoom range (28mm-70mm), and/or statement aperture (50mm f1.2, and f2 on the 28mm-70mm) rather than a solid stable of "real-life" f1.4 fixeds and f2.8 zooms. Admittedly I'd be excited about an f2 24mm-70mm. 28mm just isn't wide enough...

Richard Wong said that the 50 f1.4 was the sharpest lens he's ever used...I believe it really will be a fantastic lens. Now whether it's equal to the RF 50 1.2 remains to be seen...but it will be a crackin' lens.

Yeah... but so what, really? Sharpness, shmarpness...

I'd much rather have a really good 50mm f1.4 with beautiful bokeh like Nikon's G for $500ish than the world's sharpest 50mm for $2,300. But we'll have to see about the Lumix's bokeh. If its bokeh is truly something special, I may kick down for it. Hell, if the Otus 55mm had AF and a tactile focus ring I'd probably have spent the 4 grand on it long ago. Well, 4 grand... dunno, maybe... ;)

If that lens resolves 187 MP of detail, it's actually affordable. Seems to me that Pana Leica is gunning for the MF crowd with the S1R

@Boissez

"If that lens resolves 187 MP of detail"

The 187mp image is made up of eight sensor shifted images of 47mp, so the lens only has to resolve 47mp.

So Wong said the continuous autofocus is good but has only 5 to 6 out of 10 frames in focus, that’s even with a slow moving truck taking up most of the frame, that’s bad. Than the continuous auto focus in video is good because when it loses focus on a slow walking person, again taking up a good portion of the frame, it slowly over a few seconds finds them again and refocuses to them slowly. How is this a good thing and not just an ad for Panasonic? The only thing he said and showed about the autofocus being great is on single shot mode with animals that were standing still. I think I’ll wait for a bunch more reviews on it.

Revenant, the details are there even at the highest settings. Check it for yourself mate https://youtu.be/FWNgYY3bfmw?t=96

The Nikon Z comparison starts at 2:30 https://youtu.be/FWNgYY3bfmw?t=150

Oh Nikon Z7 looks noisy already at ISO 51200?

Really? It looks big ugly and chunky to me. And also very old fashioned, hardly cutting edge design.

Awww, won't fit in your purse? Lol, jk. ;)

Haven’t Canon already released a low end R?

@Yxa the current one is low end but with a hi-end price tag.

1) This is hardly "gigantic." We aren't talking the size of a pro sports camera like a 1DXII/D5, and even those are not "gigantic." It's all relative. There are vloggers and wildlife shooters and sports shooters who travel extensively and use the 1DXII/D5.

2) The GH series has a large following in the video area and that to me is enough to qualify it as a big hit. It's not like video is some small niche market. Video is a key market and growing rapidly.

3) For m4/3 the GH5 takes very good images. This too will take great FF images. As for comparisons with the Sony, no doubt many will make those but there are numerous advantages to the Panny, including those articulated in this article. One big advantage: the Panny body is rugged and durable, the Sony seems like a toy.

The extra size may be the difference between taking two bodies or just one. This is a big camera... There are bigger, but that doesn't make it small...

The percentage of panasonic camera sales shows that it's not a big hit. Specially when you point out that video is growing. Why isn't panasonic reflecting that on sales figures?

This will take great still images. Let's see if the AF can keep up... Check out CVP review on youtube. Specially the AF part... And I'm sure the body is durable and rugged. I'm just not sure how many hybrid shooters are really interested in that. The vast majority of pro photographers and hybrid shooters shoot people. Weddings, portraits, corporate, etc... They don't shoot in the middle of a storm... And with 6fps, this isn't a wildlife or sports camera...

"Big" is all relative. There are people who travel extensively with a 1DXII for instance. And if you need a second body, you will carry a second body. And some like bigger...better grip, more rugged, balances better with longer lenses, etc. For some it will be too big but for others just right, just like now there are smaller models that are deemed too small by some users.

Do you have sales figures for the GH5? It's hard enough to get sales figures by brand...

The vast majority of pro's I know value durability in their equipment, no matter what they shoot, whether it be weddings, portraits, corporate, etc...and put a lot of usage on their cameras.

Apparently, from the comments, it is too big for many people. That's why people are commenting it's too big.

87% of the ILC sold are canon, nikon and sony. The 13% that is left is divided by the rest. I'm sure olympus sells more than panasonic and fuji more than olympus. The GH line is a niche product...

Everyone values durability. But you know what any pro photographer values more? Capability... And there's no point in looking at durability if the camera can't do the job. I would rather change cameras every year and have a tool that gets the image, than having a camera that doesn't do what I need but lasts longer..

It's too big for some, but not for all...that's all the comments on this forum prove. And some will complain no matter what.

What if most of the Panny sales are GH5's? You don't know sales figures nor do I. The GH5 represents a success for Panny and Panny has said so.

Obviously a camera or any tool for a pro needs to have durability and capability. But pro's can make just about any camera work for them these days, as long as the camera actually works. What good is a camera, no matter how capable, if it's not working? Most pro's value less the latest gadgetry and moreso the basics of being reliable.

Reliable...
https://youtu.be/8kSPFjwTi-I?t=1605

Its too big for people in an m43 thread you mean.

It is exactly the same size and weight as every DSLR before it for 20 years.

It is the size and weight that they meant it to be. So that Pros would use it.

"It's too big, it's to big!"

Geez, i hear that everytime i go on a date. Now i have to see it in every post. Quit whining and just take it...

The price is rediculous

They read, watched and like what they saw so they bought it, its not rocket science.

I went to BB last week and they had the dslrs and the milcs on display. Once I grabbed the Z6, it felt very much similar in weight/size to my apsc... actually smaller and lighter. On the other hand, D750 with 24-105/f4 was extremly heavy and bulky (due to IS in lens). The 810.. a monster.
So yes sure I see plenty of reason to go for Z6/Z7

Probably the video is the key. Even though the D850 is arguably the best DSLR, its video AF far below of Z6 and Panasonics' SR1 line. DFD CAF of Panasonic is becoming better and better.

I would have to say the video feature set is one reason why many would opt for the Panny.

I'm no video guy, but it seems that this is the now the most fully spec'd FF MILC with regards to video. It's the only one that currently can do 4K/60 fps. I am sure given Panny's heritage that it is packed full of goodies that make it a very complete package.

The one major difference that mirrorless has brought is that it is more adept at video production and with today's visual media becoming more video focused, it makes sense to look at mirrorless when buying a new camera.

I can think of at least 5 other cameras that I'd pay a premium for before I'd buy the D850. Your perspective is shortsighted in my opinion... if you buy into F mount today you won't benefit from modern mirrorless lenses. So you either build out a system with F mount lenses and be happy or more than likely you sell your "bargain" D850 and F mount lenses somewhere along the way to buy a Panasonic or Sony or Nikon Z mirrorless anyway and you end up spending more $$$. Paying extra for the Panasonic today might actually save money over the course of several years.

The K-1 is looking like huge value right now, the original one that is not Mark II, and now it doesn't look too heavy either lol.

HAd the K1,excellent images,only AF-C was not good enough for what I needed, so D850 was the best fro my needs. Here in DK Pentax is DOA! glad to hear its selling somewhere

lol. i have d850 as main and a7r3 as sub. so no misconceptions there... just my own experience. for outdoors - the evf is fine. but in a dark studio, its unusable... cause i need to switch off the live view, if I want to go f8 or f11. and than its like watching an old tv . i need to put an ilamp or something to make it better. i use a7r3 for manual lenses... thats where it shines, yet again, only with hotlights.

also by serious work i mean - actually looking at my subject facial expressions, there eyes... and get not distracted by the evf quality. maybe if its a fashion shoot and all about clothes i would not care much...

i find a7r3 barely fine for some studio work. but nothing compared to d850.
and if you do complex lighting - i can imagine that the case with a7r3 becomes worth. try using it with kino-flo, tungsten and some strobes at the same time :).

I mostly do studio work and my main camera is a7riii and I haven’t experienced these issues.

Maybe you’re using it wrong.

The way it sounded was that you also had the d850 and you only used the a7riii sometimes.

For someone with enough experience with the d850 to make this sort of conclusive judgement and also who is a pro I’m shocked that you would even pull out that “barely fine” camera. I sure wouldn’t if it was the tool that helped pay the bills.

Oh my, that's a fun thought - a Sigma 16-35 f/2.8? Yes, yes I would be interested.

You guys have too much free time. Go have a beer with your friends or work on some photos.

@T3 do you mean those DSLR lenses, with build in Sony FE mount adaptors?
Those are huge and not designed for mirrorless flange distances.

What's the point of making L-mount consortium then?

I think people make too much of a big deal over battery life. A candy-bar phone like a Nokia 3310 had amazing battery life too, but we all gave those up for smartphones that we have to charge up every day.

I don't need a camera that can last 3000 shots on a single charge, or that can sit for a year without needing a charge. It sounds impressive to brag about, but I'd rather have the features and capabilities that modern mirrorless cameras offer, with the small trade-off that I might have to swap out the battery a couple times. I guess it's like smartphones: we trade week-long battery life for shorter battery life in order to have the capabilities and features that modern smartphones offer us.

T3 Your point is valid, but when I go to an event I easily take 3000 photos so it would be a trade-off for me. Not deal breaking but not just bragging rights either.

It is also quite comforting to know that my camera sitting in the corner here is ready to grab and take a photo the instant i feel like it.
I have never once picked it up and that old digital red blinking battery symbol popped up and stopped me from firing.

"It is also quite comforting to know that my camera sitting in the corner here is ready to grab and take a photo the instant i feel like it. "

This. My sony dies just sitting there "off". Only "cure" is to take out the battery but then it takes like 10 minutes to reboot. (not really but it seems like it if you are in a rush. That first power on is glacial). Of course this "feature" is never covered in any of the dpreview reviews. Like T3 walking through mirrorless land, everything is always wonderful....

Two more winners from Panasonic, well done to them,, these blow the Canokin efforts completely out of the water, bravo!!

@xvetc
I am sure that ‘Canokin’ (spelling no better than your judgement I note) are terrified by these expensive heavy cameras......

@Kandid - "I am sure that ‘Canokin’ are terrified by these expensive heavy cameras..."

Expensive and heavy compared to what? Compared to a $5500 Canon 1DXII and a $6500 Nikon D5?

https://camerasize.com/compact/#813,655,649,ha,t

Panasonic S1R: 1020g
Canon 1DX II: 1530g
Nikon D5: 1405g

It's funny how DSLR fans never complained about the size and weight of DSLRs, and now suddenly the S1R is "heavy." The S1R is actually about the same weight as a D850 (1005g) but is slightly smaller. The irony is that I think the size and weight of the S1/S1R is something that will appeal to certain DSLR users who want and like a bigger/heavier body like their DSLRs. I think these Panasonic bodies will appeal to those high-end DSLR users who want the technology and capabilities of a modern mirrorless camera, but with the size and weight of a DSLR.

Lol. There's a right way to spell a made up word?

Dear Alun
Yes there is - well spotted. ‘CaNikon’ ‘Canikon’ is a blended or portmanteau word and should be spelled the correct way 😁. Even by people who have no idea what there talking about like T3......

Yes, the correct spelling is "Canikon."

All this time I've been using the term Nikonon, and was considering going to Sonikonon (You should put the most important part first, yes?).

Hi Alan
It certainly takes all sorts .....😊

OOPS!!!! Sorry about the spelling, Kandid, lol, yup its Canikon, i do apologise!! 👀🤣

Buy a real video camera if it needs to be at such a pro level maybe?

@pannumon, but we are looking at the implementations of codecs from the same company. in gh5/s they are offering 400mbps. You think it's unnecessary? I wish the same, but is it really?

@steve real video camera? you mean like Eva and likes; its outside my budget range and needs.
plus i prefer hybrid nature of these cameras like GH5/s, z6 etc as i like taking photos too.
plus you can easily add these cameras to gimbals to stabilise further, this one should have very good stabilization on its own, "real one" don't.

Will have to wait and see how good the video is or not.

What display and resolution size are you filming for?

I know people want 8k for VR, but ive really not seen any video being done that is viewed on anything except a smart phone.

All the power to you if its just a hobby and you want the best, but if its just vlogging, I dont understand all this 8k video nonsense.

true, I agree to 8k and vr are being extra demanding nonsense.

I am more for 4k and am trying to extend my age-old hobby into profession (of some sort), also already own GH1+GH5 and heaps of m4/3 lenses, so don't wanna upgrade to a system with limited amount of lenses at the time and get compromises unnecessarily.
So really like this camera except bit concerned about limited bit-rates.

Now this tells me, there is something more than we normally understood about bit rates and sensor size. There was some reason why Sony couldn't go beyond their 100Mbps rate. For me more than bitrates, all-intra-I codec has values.
Well lets see and hope for the best!

@Naveed Akhtar

150mb/s is not a low bit rate for 4K.

That's fine mate, I figured it out, guess it's due to lack of All-intra-I codec support. Without it, I believe it (150mbps) should be good enough!
Hopefully Pany will drop it later with a firmware upgrade!

Actually i don't think the S1 will be too bad at C-AF. One of the newest Panasonics tested was the G9 and DPR said it aced the test in the non-tracking AF point C-AF test. I have the G9 and i agree, it's pretty good. I doubt their FF bodies are magically going to be poor.

Now subject tracking, that's another story but i personally don't care about that, i prefer to use the AF points. When i used Nikon in the past i never used 3D AF.

But hey whatever people think doesn't matter, the S1/r will be tested and then we will see a whole new set of excuses as to why something else is better.

It is M43++.

Nearly missed that one :-/.

No thanks!

Let me get this straight. Panasonic is having to catch-up to something that hasn't happened yet?

If they add another card slot then Panasonic will really be scrambling.

Some early Olympus M43 cameras didn't come with EVFs, bu you could plug one into the data port and then it would have one. It was a pretty good idea in terms of upgrading the EVF, but they didn't keep doing it, sadly.

@Cam Eralens The article says that the Panasonic battery stores more energy than Sony's battery but has a lower CIPA rating. Even if you hate Sony you have to give credit where credit is due.

But it says for Panasonic "using the LCD".
I never shoot that way. I leave the LCD off.

We really need to wait for real world results. What do you predict? Without the LCD 800? 1000? 2000?

Cam Eralens, the 710 photos on the A7III are LCD usage.

And how to you take a picture then? Just point and shoot?
Cipa EFV is 360 shots
Cipa LCD is 380 shots

Point is, S1 and S1R has half the battery life of an A7iii.

And sure, in real life, you get a lot more pictures, then the 360. But so does the A7iii. And my guess about double the pictures.

You have to use the LCD or the EVF when you shoot. Typically the LCD uses less power.

If I am not mistaken CIPA uses the same scenarios when it does it's measurements. So while it might not be totally representative of real-world use it should be an apples-to-apples comparison.

Cipa tests means nothing. No one uses their camera like they do in those tests. In some of my photo shoots with the Fujifilm XT-3 I did more than 2000 shots on one battery

@haiiyaa

Because they all have a CIPA battery rating it DOES mean something.

haiiyaa, cipa tests are an indication. No one uses the camera like they do the tests, but they do exactly the same test in all cameras. If one camera lasts 300 and another lasts 600, and if you get 2000 from the one that should only last 300, you can probably get 4000 from the one that gives 600.

Anyone with a mirrorless camera knows that you don't get CIPA numbers, but they are a great indicator. And you can check that with real world numbers. Cameras with higher CIPA scores give you more shots in real world usage.

While most people are mad at 300+ shots per charge, I think of the REAL PRO photographers of the past year who shoot at 36 shots per roll.

Even a single charge could give 10,000 garbage shots, they're still nothing but garbage.

Which pro has NO spare batteries in his bag?

This camera model is for the pro-level shooter, not codd fish level ones.

36 frames per roll, but cameras that didn't need any battery.... they could go out for months without even thinking about energy...

Sony A7III EVF is 2.36 million dot and LCD is 900k dot. Panasonic is 5.76 million dot and 2.1 million dot LCD. I'll take Panasonic over Sony. I can always bring extra battery or USB portable battery bank.

Sony EVF and LCD is one area Sony skimped on to get to $2000 price and battery life

Nope. Slow focus would be just dine dor these camera users.
Nothing special. Move on.

Panasonic contrast AF focuses quickly and is better than many PDAF systems. I had e.g. Canon 6D that had 9 focus points and only center was cross type, cluttered in the center and still with huge spread, 6D II has more points but also in the center.
My current camera a7r II has nice pdaf, but only horizontal pdaf points, not cross type (which many people are not aware of).
I have also m43 Panasonic camera and it focuses great and it does not even have DFD, only focus tracking is bad (but continuous focus is pretty ok)

PDAF != Fastest autofocus

We haven't seen a good CDAF video system yet, but Panasonic have shown CDAF that tracks better than some PDAF systems (e.g. new nikon FF vs panasonic g9--according to dpreview)

So you do have square eyes, and like usual Canikon/Sony eye piece, don't you? i found them fugly. To each their own.

By your logic, the camera would also need to have a round sensor and take round images. Oh, and to play them back of course you'll need a round TV.

" illuminated buttons" sounds AWESOME. All higher end cameras should do this.

You know what, mick? I dislike square eye pieces, have been used round ones since my analogue SLR days. Get that.

Btw, i don't have a TV, and never would be. I watch movies on my PC TFT, DVD, BD, or into Cinema. German TV program is the same like advertisings - mostly junk, never missed it since March 1995. Back then, my TV broke, and i never bought a new one, couldn't care less about that.

@batter exactly. Panasonic should do this also on more entry level DSLMs, maybe into 2020, they'd bring something into the 1500 Range.

@Gary Martin I was going to post a snarky reply until i saw your website! Love your work, man! What's your Instagram handle?