Panasonic Lumix DC-S1 review

Nikon doesn't get enough credit for getting ergonomics very, very right (at least on the D7100 and D500 I've used). It is dead simple to get the D500 to do what I want it to do.

Except movie mode, which is a dumpster fire.

Nikon DSLR ergos are my favorite too. I do like Canon's 5D and 7D ergos also. Haven't met a single mirrorless with good ergos... until probably the S1/R. Gotta get my hands on one before making that call, but it looks very promising.

Shutter release button is one of the worst places to put it. But who cares, ie. Nikon does so, so everyone should do that stupid design.

Put the On-Off to somewhere where you can access it with right hand, and around shutter release button put a dial. And then make the on-off as a switch that you can easily access eyes closed, with thick gloves in any weather, so not anywhere under a knob or so.

Tommi K1:

"Shutter release button is one of the worst places to put it."

That's interesting :)

Yeah... I rapidly pick up my Nikon with just my right hand in a rush to get a shot, and while picking it up I flip to ON with the least shutter finger movement conceivable and before the camera's at my eye my finger's on the shutter button and I'm ready to stab the shutter button, all within a fraction of a second from grab to stab, to get the shot. And I get the shot. This simple ability cannot be understated and is utterly indispensable!

Can't make better Power Switch ergos than Nikon's DSLR Power Switch placement. The only thing that *might* be faster is if the camera automatically turns ITSELF on by abrupt movement. My opinion anyway...

Wow...a whole day to evaluate an entirely new camera system...

Funny how they confuse pixel binning with line skipping.

How someone can confuse pixel binning to line skipping? Pixel binning is where you take multiple pixels as input and you output them as one. While line skipping is that you just skip some lines of pixels and record every second/third and then compose image from that.

@nomoresense - you forgot to mention that the a7iii doesn't use pixel binning and line skipping, and that the s1r crops to aps-c size with 4kp60, and btw, the s1r can't do 4:2:2 in 4kp60 mode, and isn't there a 15min time limit with that? lol

but why let the facts get in the way here ;-) lets correct some of the other misinformation that's been posted:

"The S1R on the other hand will skip lines due to the higher resolution 47 megapixel sensor." https://www.4kshooters.net/2019/02/03/panasonic-lumix-s1-and-s1r-full-frame-official-specs-announced/

Pppfffttt, Leica bodies... Their bodies are wrong in every way. THE worst ergos in photography. Well, perhaps a toss-up with the Canon R's ergos. The weakest tech. And the highest price by a multiple. Leica bodies are just plain straight-up stupid. They have 1 thing and 1 thing alone going for them: they take Leica glass.

The Lumix S1/S1R are better than the Leica SL in every way, and are flat-out inexpensive compared to the SL. And they take Leica glass as well.

The EOS R has bad ergonomics? :))

Not "bad". The worst of any FF digital ever made.

Not everyone needs to hammer nails with their camera. Some of us just take pictures and shoot video with our cameras.

Baaahahahaha, absolute trolloollollll...

Are there must have features it doesn't include for stills shooters?

The AF for stills shooters is state of the art.

Why is there always so much whining about new cameras? I can't believe how creative people are getting... Has "nice to have" not "must have" features? Really?

why would anyone want to invest in proprietary dfd af? yes, you are right it's weak, but it's also another version of dslr proprietary lens mounts, where you can't exchange lenses between brands.

put an Olympus lens on a Panasonic body, you will not have dfd capability, only cdaf, which is of course next to useless for af-c.

that's why the rest of the industry uses ospdaf/dpaf.

the only way this s1/s1r will succeed in the marketplace is if Panasonic opens up dfd for all lenses... that, and drop the price to match the competition.

The olympus lens works imperceptibly differently from the panasonic lens.

I don't think DfD is precise enough to care about specific optical properties of one f2 lens vs another f2 lens. The difference might be the communication/refresh rate of the lens focusing control.

dfd is based on bokeh comparisons, and it absolutely will not function without that information... it's not about "precise", whatever that is.

if you can't tell the difference between cdaf and dfd, well, that's exactly why i'll never own Panasonic nor any m4/3 camera... I got an a9 because I needed a camera with real af capability.

You don't know what you're talking about. Stop spreading misinformation.

I don't believe you have an a9.

I know what dfd is. What you are saying about it is not true and not contained in your links. It is just misinformation you are making up and treating like fact. Stop spreading misinformation.

Nikon certainly thinks field curvature is good for landscape over fiddling with hyperfocal. You otoh are wallowing in ignorance and thus are disqualified from any discussion at all. And I notice you haven't offered to produce any proof that you actually own an a9. Give us all a link, fantasy camera owner.

You said you will not have dfd putting an Olympus lens on a Panasonic body. Citation required.

There is nothing in an image-based auto focus method that would restrict it to Panasonic lenses. This is your own invention. It has never been documented anywhere or advertised. The only thing that would prevent compatibility is the lens not being able to respond fast enough to feed the fps rate of the algorithm. Dfd makes Olympus lens focus faster than they do on Olympus bodies.

Stop spreading misinformation. You don't know what you're talking about.

@Old Cameras - "Fact: Sigma will build what sells. If there aren’t enough S1’s and S1R’s in the wild, the market for L-mount lenses will not be attractive to Sigma."

Sigma will be developing new mirrorless lenses that will be offered for both E-mount and L-mount. Chances are, Sigma was already developing these new lenses for Sony E-mount...and now they can also applies these to L-mount. Or conversely, any lenses they develop for L-mount can also be offered in E-mount as well. With Sigma making full frame mirrorless lenses for both E-mount and L-mount, it will provide a nice synergy for them. E-mount is an open spec that they've already been supplying lenses to, and they are part of the L-mount alliance, so being providers of both E-mount and L-mount mirrorless lenses works well for them.

@s1oth1ovechunk - "You said you will not have dfd putting an Olympus lens on a Panasonic body. Citation required."

congrats on proving my point, you know nothing at all about dfd.

"Since Olympus does not use DFD and does not store respective information in its lens firmware, continuous AF of Panasonic cameras fitted with Olympus lenses is relatively slow and less confident."
https://www.apotelyt.com/photo-lens/mft-compatibility

One thing is sure about DFD. It uses lens-specific information stored in firmware, which means that if the lens doesn't come with such information, and it isn't stored in the camera firmware either, then the camera simply won't use DFD with that lens.

@Old Cameras - It's about investing in the future. Sigma has always had aspirations of being a player in the camera market, not just the lens market. That's why they've always had their Sigma SA bodies. The first Sigma SA body, the SA-300, was introduced back in 1992. It was a film SLR. Even back then, Sigma wanted to be a player in cameras. But of course, the SA system never took off. Now with the L system, they have a chance to be a player in the camera market as part of a system that actually might be successful. Again, it's about investing in their future. They want to be able to sell bodies and lenses. Besides, if they are already developing mirrorless lenses for Sony E-mount, they can take these lens designs and apply them to L-mount as well. Basically, the R&D costs of these lenses are spread across two mirrorless systems that they have the specs for, E-mount and L-mount. That's just smart business.

@everybody
MILCman (MILKY) is just a drivelling troll trying to wind you up! I doubt he even has a camera LOL....

@s1oth1ovechunk

The link to Imaging Resource already given above confirms that DFD requires a database of lens characteristics, and so is very specific. If a lens isn't recognized as DFD-compatible (i.e. no lens data is available), then the camera will use regular CDAF instead. This may very well work just as well, as there are reports of excellent AF performance with Olympus lenses, but that doesn't mean that DFD is used.

And if you read the first footnote here, it confirms that only Panasonic MFT lenses will work:

https://www.panasonic.com/nz/consumer/cameras-camcorders/lumix-g-mirrorless-dslm-cameras-learn/article/advantages-of-the-lumix-g-af-system.html

Now, if this applies to L-mount lenses as well, that's the question. They say that the L-mount alliance is a closer cooperation than MFT, so maybe Leica and Sigma lenses will also be profiled, to make them compatible with DFD, but we don't know yet.

A very good vendor that shows off image quality.

This WEX video for now is the only one we have whereby we see an actual field test with actual results. And it's made by a photographer and videographer who know what they are doing.

Better than the talking heads who just talk about the camera without even using it.

It is small enough to travel with...since when did everyone require cameras the size of a point and shoot?

But it's also meant for other purposes.

There is a place for the very small and light cameras but there is also a place for cameras a bit larger. That's one reason why DSLRs have done so well for so long. That size is not going away any time soon, even with mirrorless, because it works for many people and many purposes.

Get an Olympus.

Handheld high resolution modes are currently, IMHO, not worth it. Bring along a gorillapod and buy K1 and a decent lens. If you buy second hand and it turns out that you don't like it it's easy to resell with minimal loss. Also worth considering is Panasonic G9.

Seconded: get an Olympus and a 12-100 lens. Oh, and don’t ask for advice on DPR forums!

Get an Olympus or Fujifilm :)

It is pentax k1ii the machine of landscape and still photography. You can pay only 2400 for the camera and a decent lens fa 35 or fa 43mm or less than that k1ii and fa 50mm.

If camera usage is for stills photography, the Pentax K1 II is certainly one of the best solutions out there: high resolution high dynamic range sensor, built in sensor stabilization, hand help pixel shift giving best still image quality without needing a tripod, and all this can be had at the best price for that kind of camera.

Having more or less the same issue of you, I would say:

- if you only do photo and want the best, get a beaten up D850 and 2-3 primes and you are good to go (good battery life, best camera ever made, good lens selection, good menu system, good ergonomics, etc.)

- if you also want to go very light and/or take some occasional video, get a Fuji XT3 and some small primes from Leica M or Voigtlander or 2-3 Fuji primes

- if you want to take video more seriously but also want to go light, get a Nikon Z6 and find the smallest and best lenses you can grab from any brand

- if you can wait a little and need something that is very rugged and can be used in the field when things get hard, want to do video seriously, get a Panasonic S1 when it's available

Seriously, get an Olympus.

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

@gravis92
Take a hard look at a d850. It's durable and has a lenses you can pick up for $5 in a yard sale or $5000 from zeiss. I use an a7r3 and a9 for my work but I don't do the whole adventure landscape thing with them. You might want to take a look at m43 if weight is an issue but you'll take an image quality hit unless you mess about with stacking shots (which I think can be done in camera though with olympus). This camera looks nice but it's new and there's some lenses out there, but look at Leica lens prices before deciding; they're the reason to buy this camera

I have thought about the nikon 1! Glad to know someone mentioned it. Its a really neat camera.

And I dont need a small camera. My "hiking" trips are only day trips or overnighters just to a photo spot. 90% of the other time we are camping in backgroad out of my KLR or the Jeep, or on a canoe trip. Meaning, it doesnt matter if its heavy.

I have thought about the d850 also

well, I am not sure I am any farther ahead, but its nice to hear other perspectives.

I really do like the olympus as well, but I think I am going to go full frame because like I said, mostly when I am out the bike, jeep or canoe is carrying me. When I go serious hiking i bring my canon rebel t2 35mm film camera and 40mm stm lens loaded with some provia. . It weights nothing. I still have a scanner from back in the day.

Can someone tell me why the d850 over the K1? I get the issue with the pixel shift etc etc, some people like but other do no like. Pretend I just turn it off and never use it?

This is awesome. OP asks for a new mirrorless full frame camera advice, and a group of super competent experts come with all kinds of advice on used cameras, APS-C DSLRs and MFT alternatives :)

Um, no. OP asked for a camera suggestion, himself noting K1II (DSLR) and S1R as possible replacements for broken APS-C DSLR.

lol! The OP literally said they were thinking about the K1 II DSLR! :)

Irakly I guess you didn’t read the OP later post and question about differences between the Pentax K1 II and the Nikon D850. If the OP asked about other mirrorless I’m sure the Sony a7rIII would have come up as a great choice as well.

This is a professional system. Nobody expects you to buy it to take lame pictures to show off them on Internet to people who couldn't care less.

@Irakly Shanidze

My apologizes then. I didn't realize this system was intended for professionals.

Funny, what's professional camera, and no professional would buy into unproven systems, like this one

I do agree that on the stills side we will not see some mass exodus to Panny. But on the video side I do think you will a good number of pro's adopt this system because they have come to trust Panny through their other equipment.

Of course interested hobbyists will also buy this camera. Not all pro level equipment is sold to pro's...but that does not diminish its professional level feature set.

@Vinhinpress - in what way is it unproven? The technology is mature, Panasonic's track record in reliability and customer service is not too shabby at all. Lenses made in cooperation with Leica for MFT are the best in the category, which offers no reason to suspect that FF lenses will be any worse. Leica SL lenses are stellar, Sigma Art is pretty good for the money. What is it there to be afraid of?

@Irakly
Unproven as in being brand new.......

@vinhinpress
Any camera designed to cater to getting results for a client, with workflow applied to the design. Doesn't mean you can't use any camera for paid work, just that a 'pro' model tries to make it easier

Of all companies, Panasonic has the longest record of making mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras. Furthermore, they took mirrorless technology seriously from the day one (G1 from 2008 is still a great camera). Panasonic Micro Four Thirds are mature products, and it seems they refined their design even further with S1(R).

It did take years for Sony to get their FF cameras somewhat right and Nikon has promising 1st generation of "serious" mirrorless cameras. IMHO, the biggest strength of Panasonic is that their cameras are very well designed and robust, without unexpected surprises.

M43 is mature system, with Olympus on still and Pana on video side. If someone want to take a video, Gh5/5s are among best choice, with hundreds of native and adapted lenses, and it's still considered prosumer.

On still side, Pana has lots of work to do with AF (as on their Gh5/5s now) in order to be acknowledged as professional gear (Professional understood as paid job, you get the money and do not miss the moment)

If it's a moment you don't want to miss then the Panasonic will perform as well as anything else out there.

Are you talking about videos or photos?

Just because it has a bigger sensor doesn't mean Panasonic has to forget everything they know about making cameras. Are you saying Panasonic is unproven as a professional camera?

@s1oth1ovechunk

Past successes aside, this is still a brand new system, therefore it is unproven in terms of performance, technology, and reliability. One could say the same for Nikon/Canon's mirrorless FF when they were first announced.

Its not a professional system. Because if only professionals bought it they would go out of business.

Professionals demand every last little tiny advantage in new cameras and beause they also do vlogs to get more money with their reviews they find all the little things wrong with the camera that are essentially meaningless and force camera companies to compete to make a better camera (but much more expensive) because people watch and listen to these vlogs.

But no one needs all this tech, and the majority of people who buy this camera are not professionals.

Stick to your fancy 5G cameras and lay off the vlogs. No sane person needs 20 frames a second, and these are 90% of the people that buy cameras.

Wow. Thanks for sharing. Indeed this field test shows remarkable focusing system.

Since when did Tony Northrup become this grand authority over everything photographic? It seems he gets quoted all of the time these days, especially when he is critical of any brand that doesn't rhyme with Tony.

Tony seems like a nice guy, he's done a good job building up his channel, but please, let's dispense with this idea that he is some sort of major authority on camera equipment. He is but one voice out there, and he does have a tendency to make snap judgements without proper testing or learning of new gear.

@MILC man I linked to a video of two people out in the field raving about the autofocus and sharing actual burst photos and video in action.

You linked to a man sitting beside a powerpoint lecturing about the "autofocus reality" of a camera he's never touched. Your Sony is still fine relax.

Bravo to dereken for winning the internet today with his very insightful comment on how we should assign greater credibility to a video of people actually testing the camera and showing their work vs a Youtube dude pontificating behind his desk about a camera he has never even touched.

Typical Northrup clickbait. Like his MFT is Dead post. I far prefer DPRTV at least they are out using the equipment not pontificating in a studio.

DPRTV? You got to be kidding. You think those guys really are able to extensively, extensively use any gear, such that they can flesh out a credible review compared to those who do long-term reviews? It's the biggest joke since DPR's partnership with DXO.

https://www.eoshd.com/2019/02/shooting-with-the-panasonic-s1-in-barcelona/

"The autofocus… Now, bearing in mind this isn’t the final firmware, DFD contrast detect based AF with Ai was inconsistent. Most of the time with the 24-105mm F4 and 50mm F1.4 (an absolutely fantastic lens), focus was silent but felt less snappy than the G9. In video mode it felt similar to the GH5 with older firmware. For stills, it would be fast to select a detailed object in the foreground but slow to snap onto the background. It would rack focus all the way to close-up and then all the way back to infinity.

Continued...

And it’s still so, in C-AF the DSLRs are the best

@Abel89er - Sigma has said that there will be releasing all-new FF mirrorless lenses in 2019:
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/sigma-ceo-says-lenses-designed-for-full-frame-mirrorless-are-coming-in-2019/

As for "interbrand lenses", that shouldn't be an issue since they are all designed for the same spec and protocol. Panasonic, Sigma, and Leica are all OEM manufacturers for L-mount.

Besides, I think it's still better that there are three OEM manufacturers working to build and contribute to a system than just one. I think that will result in more variety (not just in lenses, but also in bodies) and a faster build-out of a system. A single OEM manufacturer is limited in how fast they can work due to limited resources, and they often have a particular design point of view so it ends up being a "take it or leave it" proposition. But when who have three companies contributing, you triple the resources and triple the design perspectives. That's why open systems and alliances are good.

@T3 it remains to be seen whether Sigma and Leica lenses will be supported by the DfD (Olympus m43 lenses are not).

That only pertained to DSLRs. In mirrorless, it's a totally different story. Sigma makes 15 mirrorless lenses for Sony mirrorless, but none for Canon and Nikon mirrorless. For example, Sigma makes six APS-C mirrorless lenses that are available for Sony E-mount but they don't make these available for Canon EF-M mount. Sigma could very easily offer these lenses in EF-M mount since the EF-M mount is very similar to the E-mount (both have an 18mm flange distance, EF-M has a 47mm throat diameter while E-mount has a 46.1mm throat diameter, so they are physically nearly identical), but Sigma has refused to offer any of these lenses in EF-M mount.

Besides, Sigma makes the MC-11 adapter which allows all of their Sigma EF lenses to be used on Sony mirrorless bodies (as well as Canon's EF lenses). So any Sigma lens that can be used on Canon EF can already be used on Sony mirrorless.

@JakeJY -Yes, you are right. There is likely some other roadblock that is preventing 3rd party support of Canon's EOS M system. And that roadblock is likely to apply to Canon's and Nikon's new FF mirrrorless systems as well, as both Canon and Nikon have stated that they will not be sharing their lens mount specs with 3rd parties. And besides that, RF and Z mount usership is still tiny compared to E mount which has been in the market for quite some time.

We don't yet know full sales numbers and relative market share breakdown by FF mirrorless system, but in November BCN had it pegged at about Sony 67%, and Canon/NIkon the rest. Canon/Nikon have only grown their market share since then.

So Canon/Nikon do not have a "tiny" market share in FF MILC; they are coming on strong. I bet Sigma would love to compete in the emerging RF lens market especially.

@Thoughts R Us - No, they are not "coming on strong." There was a lot of initial pent-up demand for CaNikon FF MILC, and you had a certain group of diehards who were going to buy whatever they offered, no matter what. But a lot of that initial excitement has died off. For December 2018, these were the BCN cameras sales rankings:
https://1.img-dpreview.com/files/p/E~forums/62132731/7dd6c6112ba443a2a21cca9ac2f4c2e5

https://4.img-dpreview.com/files/p/E~forums/62132731/ee2bd3c268b54c7291869e9630781e30
Sony A7III was 10th (body) and 16th (kit), Canon EOS R (body) was 13th, Nikon's FF MILC wasn't even in the top 20. So as of December 2018, according to BCN, the A7III was still outselling both CaNikon's FF MILC introductions. And the A7III had already been in the market since Feb 2018! Not great for Canon and Nikon, considering their huge usership and how popular they are in Japan! CaNikon FF MILC should easily be outselling the older A7III, but that's obviously not happening.

@T3: Yes, Canon and Nikon, and esp. Canon, are coming on strong in the FF MILC category.

And Sony is getting ready to drop the price of the A7III...so that tells you a bit of how well it is selling now, and how Sony feels more heat than ever before.

Absolutely no one said Sony would be killed in 3 months. No one said they would die in 6 months.

That is a pretty trollish straw man argument.

Sony has a nice tiny niche. They probably will for a few years.
Canon will probably remain at 45-50% and Nikon should remain above 25% globally.

@SidneyVision - "Now Sony is on the decline"

Uh-huh, sure. Keep telling yourself that. Meanwhile, Nikon isn't in decline? Nikon, the company that only captured 26% of FF market share in the US in 1H 2018 (compared to Sony at 40% and Canon at 33%):
https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-now-has-40-of-the-us-full-frame-market-share/
and who has no FF cameras at all in BCN's top 20 camera sales according to December 2018 sales data, and who has no APS-C mirrorless in the market? Meanwhile, you have Canon who still hasn't figured out how to put IBIS in their cameras and is still using an old sensor in their EOS R (same sensor as 5D IV introduced in 2016), only has 1 SD slot, only does 5fps, and still charges more than the competition. And you still choose to worship them? Great!

There is a good example in the other of how well the DfD tracks people, birds, etc.
It looks impressive, which is upsetting some people here.

it is just to early to say.

Yeah, I think people assume too much about it. In AF-S, it's so quick that there really isn't much of a significant difference to be had. Still needs improvement in continuous, but it's only on its second generation and still evolving (while OSPDAF is much more developed). I wouldn't write it off so quick.

@MILC man

The lens is 130mm long, which makes it only slightly shorter than the forthcoming Nikon Noct, which I estimate to be about 150mm long. Both for a FL circa 50mm. At least the Panasonic 50 doesn't have a tripod mount, unlike the Nikon.

The Sony 50/1.4FE (once ridiculed for it's size and price) is looking compact and a bargain at £1500. Who'd have thought.

http://j.mp/2RAnPgv

Panasonic stamp Leica name on the front if you want to sell these cameras at this crazy price.

that comparison photo is hilarious! s1r is just another dslr brick, complete with the useless lcd on top :-/

My local camera shop has a price of $6300, that's including the 24-105mm lens, keeping in mind that's Canadian prices.

Just think that's only 40% of the Leica SL 50mm/1.4...

canon camera division just predicted a 13% drop in operating profit for fy2019.
sony camera division fy2018 3rd qtr operating profit is up +8.3% from a year ago.

got that? canon is failing, sony is winning :-)

lol. you mean sony ate everyone elses lunch. and why quote 2018 sales figures if these new cameras are released in 2019. totally illogical

because sony just released fy2018 q3 results a couple of days ago.

"fy" stands for fiscal year, google it.

Canon now has 49% of all ALL ILC sales. Nikon over 26%.
For every 4 ILCs sold, two are Canon and one is Nikon.
Less than 24% is split between Fuji, Pentax, Panasonic, Leica, Olympus, Sony, etc.

Don’t feel bad for Canon and Nikon. Feel bad for the little fish.

@SidneyVision - Most of that ILC market share is composed of low-end, low-profit, bargain DSLRs. And that market is rapidly declining. Sony has concentrated on the upper market which accounts for lower unit volume but provides higher margins and greater per-unit revenue.

As for the "little fish", Sony is hardly a "little fish." Sony is worth $58.4 billion, Canon is worth $31.1 billion, and Nikon is worth a mere $6.7 billion. Nikon is tiny compared to Sony. Even Fujifilm ($17.6 billion) is much larger than Nikon, which is why Fujifilm can support their X system and GFX system with very little market share. Meanwhile, Nikon couldn't even support their Nikon 1 system and had to kill it off. Money = power and flexibility. Nikon has the least money. They are also the least diversified company and most dependent on camera sales, so they are very vulnerable as the camera market continues to shrink.

By the way, Panasonic is worth $22.7 billion.

Is Sony Imaging worth $58 billions?
I shouldn’t think so
It’s must be Sony inc with their profitable banking and insurance divisions but that for example include their consumer electronics divisions ,as their dying mobile phones and TVs subdivisions but not their Vaios as they are already stone dead

@SidneyVision

"Canon now has 49% of all ALL ILC sales. "

Yes, and they used to have much more than that, as early as a couple years ago. People are finally understanding that Canon can't compete, and are looking elsewhere for cameras. It only took 8 years or so for that to sink into the general public, but it's here, and Canon's afraid.

@Nomoreheroes - Fujifilm is a $17.6B company that only makes 5.3% of its revenue from its camera division. Click on the "Optical Devices and Electronic Imaging Products" segment of the pie chart below:

https://www.fujifilmholdings.com/en/investors/guidance/index.html

"Optical Device & Electronic Imaging Products : Offer such digital cameras as the X series and lenses used in various fields
The X series mainly consisting of high-end mirrorless cameras provide excellent image quality with a unique color reproduction technology. The Optical Device business offers high-quality lenses in a wide variety of fields such as broadcasting and security cameras."

This division is 33% of their Imaging Solutions segment which makes up 16% of their business. 33% of 16% = 5.3%. They make so much money elsewhere, they can support their X system and GFX system with hardly any market share. Money = power and flexibility. Meanwhile, Nikon is so small they couldn't even support their Nikon 1 system.

@T3, perhaps you should know that Sony sells not only cameras, but also insurance, while Panasonic makes all kinds of stuff, including irons (I know cause we have one). Putting market cap of all these things together is not an argument all of these companies are very much diversified

pretty hard to be the "best ilc for video" with dfd, which is a major deal-breaker... I wonder what the rolling shutter is like.

add in the dismal lens selection and the absurd prices for what native glass there is, and there will be few takers for this camera.

sony will be forced to come up with 4kp60 in the very near future... in the meantime, we'll be very happy with the best autofocusing system on the market ;-) and the best milc lens selection, by far.

DfD works OK. And this new version hasn’t been completely tested. Wait for full review.
I’d rather have DfD and not all those terrible OSPDAF banding problems. You never know when it will ruin your photos or video.

But I do want 4K 60p video. And these days 10 bit video is a must. It is similar to the difference between RAW and JPEG. 8 bit video lacks usable dynamic range and color information. I can always manually focus or use S-AF. But you cannot improve 8 bit video to match 10 bit video. And you cannot make 30p look as smooth as 60p.

dfd is a complete fail, period... it's a proprietary mess, that in the past has only worked with Panasonic lenses on Panasonic bodies.

put a non-Panasonic lens on a Panasonic body, you are stuck with cdaf, which is awful... dfd is a throwback to the days of proprietary dslr mounts; it's just a way for Panasonic to force people to buy Panasonic lenses.

you should learn what dfd actually is, before commenting on it.

DFD is based on CDAF. All Sony mirrorless cameras use CDAF for their best accuracy, even those with PDAF.

DfD also has the greatest potential. It is software driven and as CPUs get faster it improves even more. This version updates AF 480 times a second, faster than any other focus system and any previous DfD.

OSPDAF has some fatal flaws. It causes banding, striping and causes color issues. The PDAF pixels sit in front of the sensor and block light, and when light comes in at an angle things get ugly. Back lit scenes as we know are a major problem.
This is why OSPDAF is a dead end. There is no fix for those flaws.

'You should have the same opinions as me, before sharing them on the internet.'

I don't see cdaf anywhere in this Panasonic dfd faq: "DFD technology is a technology that calculates the direction and the amount to move the focus lens at a single movement by predicting it with 2 images that have different depth of field."
http://eng.faq.panasonic.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/26478/~/what-is-dfd-%28depth-from-defocus%29-technology%3F---dmc-gh4

dfd is proprietary; that is a FACT, not an opinion, and nothing on these s1/s1r cameras appears to have changed that... we've already seen that dfd performance will never be as good as ospdaf/dpaf.

all of which is why canon, Nikon, Olympus, Fuji, sony, etc. do NOT use dfd, it's a fail no matter how you look at it.

@SidneyVision/Thoughts R Us

"I’d rather have DfD and not all those terrible OSPDAF banding problems. You never know when it will ruin your photos or video.OSPDAF has some fatal flaws."

Well, by your own admission you have a camera with OSPDAF - the Nikon Z7. How many of your photos have been ruined by the striping?

Look at the the DfD examples in the 10 things video.
It looks very impressive. That may be why the Sony fans are freaking.
Sony is far behind in video. OSPDAF has banding problems. Now this.

@SidneyVision/Thoughts R Us

you have told us all you own both an EOS R and a Nikon Z7 with standard zooms.

Please detail your negative experiences with the OSPDAF of the Nikon that you say has: ' fatal flaws. It causes banding, striping and causes color issues... things get ugly. Back lit scenes as we know are a major problem.'

How are you coping?

@RubberDials: BTW I am not SydneyVision. You make yourself look foolish when you assume that.

As to DFD for video, consider this: pro's and advanced amateurs use manual focus for video. No one relies on AF for video except for very basic amateur stuff. I'm not into video and so someone like me may do that at a theme park. Even then I may manual focus. So it's absurd to have this debate about AF for video when high end video users don't care.

I seriously doubt that MILF and RubberDials has ever handed a Panasonic camera with DFD
They are two souch cute keyboard warriors
Instead of writing what you don’t understand , try a GH5 with the 2.4 FW
It has a quite good video AF

Remember Sony play memories??
They made you pay extra for basic functionality found on other cameras.

That was a big failure. Panasonic should pay attention.

Wrong. Canon's c-log upgrade included hardware update not just firmware

There's no such thing as a free lunch...econ 101. All software updates are ultimately paid for by the consumer, the only question is how.

If you are given a software update for "free" that only means that the cost of the software development is built into the price of the camera.

Metal. Bigger and tougher. Works for me!

The battery is largest of all FF MILC.

Yeah, AF is by far my main concern with the S1. Sensor characteristics after that.

While it seems a foregone conclusion that DFD will fail, I'm standing by with fingers crossed. And cautiously optimistic about its sensor. But aside from those 2 characteristics (though critical life-or-death characteristics) this Lumix has everything else I'm looking for in a MILC. Well, faster AF-C full-res frame rate would be really nice. Just 8fps with dead-on tracking is all I'm asking for. Next gen, hopefully...

I saw S1 tests shot at all ISO settings. It doesn't seem that you have to worry about the sensor.
As to AF speed, Leica 24-90 zoom focuses about two times faster on the S1 body than on its native SL.

Nah, Nikon and Sony have neutralized color cast. I don't know about at ISO 25,000ish+ because i don't shoot there. But at ISO 12,800 cast is handled.

What this Lumix offers that no other MILC offers is good size and truly good ergonomics. While the a9 is close in those respects, it's not as good there. Plus, there's Sony menus which for me is a deal-breaker on its own.

So what many DSLR/pro shooters have been so upset about all the way until now has finally been addressed. And that essentially boils down to an efficient, intuitive, comfortable MILC shooting experience.

We'll see about S1 performance... But nobody should be quick to dismiss the value of a camera because it doesn't produce the best IQ on Earth and doesn't AF ad good as other cameras in its price range IF the shooting experience is efficient and comfortable. Getting the shot is by far the most important thing! Perfect focus and dynamic range are subordinate. Having the buttons you need where you want them, and accessible intuitive menus are way more important than hair-splitting sensor characteristics, etc...

@Sir. Just curious as to why you think Sony's menus are a deal breaker. I shoot the A7III and while I agree the menus are far from perfect once I setup the MyMenu I rarely have to go into the other menus. Have you shoot a mark 3 Sony?

I have a 7RM2. I've shot the 7RM3 and a9 but didn't spend much time either at all as i just wanted to see how they AF. Haven't spent time in the 3rd gen menus. I understand they are improved, but 2nd gen menus are so so so far away from usable to me that for me Sony needs to completely redo the whole menu system.

@Sir 7 - what you fail to realize is that with "my menu" and the extensive customization of sony milc buttons, there is very little need to actually deep-dive into the menus... of course you didn't know all that; you just stuck your foot in your mouth.

beyond that, I actually rather like the a9 menu system, and it's far better than the Olympus menus that I've seen in the past.

MILCy, what you fail to realize, despite me telling you this many times, is that i have a 7RM2. I've setup My Menu and customized my buttons. But it's just not enough. I do still have to wade through those menus all the time, and i never get used to them and they'll never make sense. Plus, i don't like Sony button placement and i don't like Sony's haptics. At all. That means a lot of missed shots and impatient subjects. Deal-breaker.

I get that you're happy with your a9, and I'm happy for you. For real. But i still can't stand Sonys. They don't work for me.

@Sir 7 - what you fail to realize, despite what I just told you, is that 2nd-gen sony menus are not like 3rd-gen cameras... so nothing that you said there matters.

good grief! lol

Sir7 - good summary of the subject of all-round ‘feel’ and tactile enjoyment of using a camera - a key part of successful output IMO, more so than the tech specs in some way and is the key reason why I too dislike Sonys intensely.

I don’t think anyone would disagree about the tech advances that Sony has made ( I wouldn’t, and I hope it spurs others - has to) but as long as I feel like my fingers are jammed up against the lens barrel and I’m using a soulless PS4 with a lens on the front they aren’t for me - and there’s nothing that any of the well known Sony internet army with references/links secreted about their person can say to convince me otherwise.

@StevieF:
Lol at "Sony Internet army"! 😁 Man, it's so true though! It's really only Sony fans that judge a camera, and rabidly defend or condemn it, solely by what stat sheets say. Well, Pentax fans to a lesser degree too. The frustrating futility of dealing with Sony fans... 💩

Lots of Sonyfangirls in this thread

That's the nature of the technical progress: you buy something, and next thing you know, it is obsolete. When Leica SL came out, its set of features was unique. Now we have cameras that do 4K from the full sensor width and 60fps on Super35. Does it make my SL in any way worse than it was in 2016? No. Footage from it today just as good as the first time I tried it. In fact, it is better, because I learned how to make the most of it.
Same with this S1: it has a unique set of features, which will become obsolete next year. It is not going to make these features disappear. You will be able to use them regardless of what Sony brings in the next iteration of its cameras.

Nomoreheroes is a login of Oskar P/Mastering Light.

looks like the m4/3 camp is a bit insecure these days ;-)

first Panasonic bailed out of m4/3, then Olympus released that new brick with a tiny sensor, that has weak af, and now this overpriced ff dfd monstrosity.

Don't complain? In Euorope It is 2.500€. Someone must have gone mad indeee!

Irakly Shanidze/ Leica lens is overrated.

Zeiss FE 50mm F1.4 cost only $1500. Leica Summilux is just expansive for its performance and they always are. Zeiss 55mm F1.4 is a manual lens which can cover Medium format mount.

Using Leica lens doesnt justify anything. How come Zeiss is way cheaper but better than Leica lenses?

@Irakly Shanidze
No, it doesn't use Leica glass. The lens is simply "Leica approved".

As of now, there are AF converters available for Canon and Nikon lenses, made by Novoflex. Pretty soon both Panasonic and Sigma will make their own adapters.
Having said that, you do not seem to be within the target audience being heavily invested in other system and having no interest in video. The main advantage of the S1 is its video capabilities unsurpassed in FF.

Not for years. Maybe for a year, it has the same sensor as the Zs and the d850 sans the phase detect array.

AdamT just got roasted.

Soon digital full frame cameras are solid state products with almost no moving parts. Why should they be large and heavy? Just because digital DSLR cameras grew to monsters to house electronics and huge batteries? Or to function as counterweight for bright and long lenses that just the very few use, and where weight already is a problem even before mounting the camera? And how can you make a large camera compact with a small lens?

My guess is that this "large and heavy" thinking is much more connected to "it looks professional!" than how this would benefit real world use!

You can attach a battery grip to a9 make it big and bulky and heavy if you want, but you can't make a small camera from already big camera...

DFD makes everyone a hack.

Had Canon used an 80s top lcd like that they would have been DESTROYED on the internet. Why should Panasonic get a free pass for using old tech? Where’s the innovation?