For photographic needs Sony a7r iv is definitely better, but on videos, there is no comparison.

None of the mirrorless cameras have any track record to go on with regards to reliability...the Panny's, the Sony's, etc.

I have made the same point: we don't know. All we do know is the the high end DSLRs do have a long and great track record of being used in all manner of very tough conditions and in general holding up very well.

It is a natural assumption that something that is heavier and larger would be more durable. Again, it may not be true with these mirrorless models, and we don't know without the proof of data, but it is understandable. And it is understandable because with other camera models and products, the larger and heavier products do have a track record of holding up over time in arduous conditions.

So the assumption that (larger/heavier = durability) is not crazy, and may prove to be true with mirrorless. Only time will tell.

@Thoughts R Us - "None of the mirrorless cameras have any track record to go on with regards to reliability...the Panny's, the Sony's, etc. I have made the same point: we don't know."

no, the only point that you made is that YOU don't know, because you don't have any experience with milc, especially sony.

and of course you have never used these Panasonic s1/s1r cameras, but you are constantly posting misleading claims about s1/s1r all over dpr.

I just posted over five years experience with sony ff milc, so don't make false claims that "none of the mirrorless cameras have any track record"

you do not speak for people who actually own and use milc.

@Milcman: first I have tried the Panasonic S1R.

Second, your anecdotal experience means nothing. I’m sure every press agency in the world is supposed to just take your little story as evidence that Sony can hold up over time. Haha.
Also given the way you trash everything else besides Sony your claims about Sony are suspect.

There is no substantive track record of people using Sony in the toughest of conditions. In fact there are surprisingly few stores out there of people noting how durable there Sony is. No one thinks of Sony as the ultimate in reliability.

@Thoughts R Us - there you go again with your sony-bashing posts.

your claims mean nothing, because you don't own sony and you don't use sony, much less any other milc, of any brand.

funny how you just told us: "I do not criticize and certainly not totally trash talk any equipment if I have not used it": https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-rf-35mm-f1-8-is-stm-macro-review?comment=3309041315

you just proved that wrong.

you've never "tried" the s1r, or the a9, which is easily proven by the fact that you have never posted any pics on dpr, of anything, since you created that dpr account back in 2009... no flickr, no Instagram, no website, nothing.

I'm sure Milkman would tell us if there was a problem with any of his alleged Sony gear, lol!

@milcman: Prove to us that you have used your Sony and that it has held up to the condition you claim it has.

As for me, I have no need to prove myself to you or anyone else. You can believe me or not. I really don't care. I don't like to post images due to privacy concerns, and due to people like you. If I posted anything you would just try to tear me down. I don't need that.

So prove to us about your Sony claims. Go on...it's your rule that without images nothing is proven.

BTW, this is one more instance of MILCman proving Roger Cicala's rule:

Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken, 1917

*Sonyfanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy with other equipment. Roger Cicala, 2018

I will add that if Sony does not make it in the camera industry, it will be due to all of their annoying online trolls who alienate people who otherwise might think better of the brand.

@Thoughts R Us - "None of the mirrorless cameras have any track record"

that is your claim to prove, not ours to disprove, and so far you have totally failed to prove it.

@Thoughts R Us - "I have tried the Panasonic S1R."

you made that claim, so it's yours to prove, not ours to disprove... so where are the s1r pics that you claim to have shot?

@Thoughts R Us - "I don't like to post images due to privacy concerns"

given that it's really easy to strip the exif info out of a photo, that claim is not valid.

@Thoughts R Us - "sony… annoying online tr*lls"

just more of your sony brand-bashing and name-calling.

There really is no record here of MILCman actually using his Sony camera. Empty gallery... dozens of comments attacking Panasonic, but why?

I've posted dozens of pics on dpr.

direct quotes and links from reputable reviewers are not "Panasonic attacks".

how come you can't tell the difference between that and Thoughts R Us calling sony owners "annoying online tr*lls"

MILCman feels compelled to go into virtually every discussion of gear that is not Sony to trash talk that gear, even though he has never used it.

I've asked several times why and he gives no answer. Is he paid by Sony to do this? Or does have have some weird reason to do so?

BTW, for the record MILCman's profile lists zero photos uploaded. So when MILCman says he's posted "dozens of pics on dpr" that is clearly not true.

And yes, the Sony trolls are annoying. Like MilCman who attempt to spoil literally every discussion about everything not Sony.

@Thoughts R Us : "It is a natural assumption that something that is heavier and larger would be more durable. " => this is not a good assumption though, it's not scientific, just "feels solid". Take a piano, it's heavy and large, right? Drop it from the first floor in the garden, 99% chances that it's completely broken. Now take your ipod or usb-stick (lol) and drop it from the first floor to the garden, they will probably both survive. See what I mean.

I have owned Panasonic gear since the 70s, from a radio cassette recorder to audio visual (National Panasonic/Technics/JVC - once owned by Matsushita Electric, who are now Panasonic), the GH2, various compacts, GX8 (best form factor ever), LX100 Mk1 etc. Never ever had anything go wrong with any of these. Although I like Sony's ability to make things small, most of my Sony gear (never had an A series) has failed within warranty, including f-717, RX-100 Mk1. Lightning destroyed by Sony TC-K65 Dolby Cassette Deck in the 1980s so we'll not include an act fo God.
Panasonic have always put QA first, building their own 'Panasert' assembly machines, so have control over the way components are inserted into the PCBs etc.
I would ask those with early Panasonic mirrorless cameras how they are performing today. Almost forgot, I dropped my GH2 day after I bought it, fell 4 ft onto a hard train floor, landing on it's lens, No harm done.
I am very optimistic about the S series toughness.

@pollup: interesting analogy with the piano and the usb drive...but IMHO the problem is that you are comparing two different products with different levels of complexity. A better comparison would be to compare a heavier, larger piano with a lighter one.

Take a car...which car would you rather be in if you had an accident: a larger, heavier car or a smaller, lighter one? Look at the Canon 1D and Nikon D5 pro series models, they are tanks and have a record of holding up in all sorts of extreme conditions.

But I do admit that sometimes a product that is smaller/lighter can definitely be very tough and more durable than it seems.

@Thoughts R Us : it doesn't matter what objects were being compared, all I did was to show that something heavier and larger CAN be a lot more fragile than something light and compact, which is enough to refute your claim.

If you want only pianos, sure, take again the big and heavy one, used for concerts, and then take a mini piano toy that can fit in your hand. Drop them both from 2 meters high and on an 45 degrees angle. Both can play music but the small and compact one is less likely to break because it's both lighter (which minimizes the force of impact) and more compact with fewer moving parts.

About cars, bad example, the main parameter is the speed, I'll rather crash in a small/light car at half the speed of a big/heavy car, because the force of impact will less than 1/4th. Same for a plane, it's even a lot more massive and designed with safety in mind, yet, if there's a crash, you're not likely to survive at all, simply because of the speed.

@pollup: obviously we can do this dueling analogy game ad infinitum.

Your second piano analogy is a stretched one as well, since you compare a working concert piano with literally a toy piano that you can fit in your hand. Boy, talk about a difference! So you have to compare the real thing with a toy in order to make your point. How about comparing a big heavy concert piano with a another real piano, only one smaller, lighter, more flimsy?

I will stick up for my car analogy; there are all kinds of accidents, and again, your comparison using half the speed makes no sense. How about this simple test: assume you are going to be in a car accident at the same speed: would you rather be in a larger, heavier car or a smaller, lighter one? It's an easy question.

The irony is that I basically agree with your premise that smaller/lighter doesn't necessarily mean less durable. Only I qualify that and note that larger/heavier often equates with more durable.

Jeff, just out of curiosity, how much would you pay for a S-series rangefinder ?

@LingoDingo
Hmmmm… good question.
$1800? Maybe $2000?

Also, aside from possibly the 24-105mm macro kit lens, I'd be using it almost exclusively with adapted Voigtländer, Jupiter and Nikon AI-S lenses.

@jeffharris I love how you think and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. I am using a Z6 right now, but the GX8 was my all-time favourite before I retired it.

The review from DPRTV and this lengthy review are two different things...they are both under the banner of DPR, but come from different sources.

DPR TV is done by Chris and Jordan. They do an excellent job in both their evaluation and in producing compelling video content. It's not easy to produce video that actually holds people's attention, and they manage to do that.

The long written reviews are done by a team of other writers/editors at DPR; I believe the take longer and involve more testing time.

Nothing wrong with either but let's realize that they are different.

I believe the only real "controversy" surrounding the Panny S1 series is with their AF. Perhaps the best summary is from this review:
"The S1's Depth from Defocus system performs well, though it doesn't track moving subjects as well as competitors with Hybrid AF systems."

Don't worry too much about silver or gold.
Depending on your requirements, it can be easily the best camera in the market out there.
Best wishes

@Thoughts R Us - "Nothing wrong with either but let's realize that they are different."

of course they are different, it's two different sources, what was the point of posting that.

i didn't see where dpr.com mentioned the evf blackout problem in the s1, but they did in their own way agree with dprtv about the evf going soft with af-c... it does not jive with all the claims that the s1/s1r has such a good evf:

"However the experience of using the camera to photograph a moving subject in AF-C is behind the competition because it’s almost impossible to tell whether the subject is in-focus, when shooting through the viewfinder. So while you may walk away with a lot of keepers, your confidence in hit rate will be low until you actually sit down at a computer and look at the files. This is hardly the behavior we’d want from a camera with pro-level aspirations."

dpr.com did not list that mushy evf behavior in their "what we don't like" summary.

So where does this "running with dogs" show up in the review? I must have missed that...
Have you any personal experience at all with DFD & C-AF? Or is this just an assumption on your part?
Years ago I bought a Lumix FZ1000 based in large part on a comment on DPreview from a user who had tested the FZ1000 against a Sony RX10 II for exactly that purpose: shooting agility dogs in motion. The conventional CDAF in the RX10 wasn't up to the task, but the FZ1000 with DFD did just fine, thank you!
Since then I've moved on to the FZ2500, with an improved DFD over the 1000. I shoot BIF, aviation/warbirds and fast-action motorsports with it. Its DFD does just fine with those subjects as well.
So unless you have personal experience that differs, your blanket statement is literary hyperbole of the first order.

Well I can understand that it might not fulfil your niche.
And also feel sorry for you, as otherwise its a great tool!

It definitely open more photographic opportunities for me and make it more enjoyable than my Canon 5DIV. It's really easy for me to take pictures - eyeAF, IBIS, EVF, high dynamic range.

The IBIS is useful in places that ban tripod.

The eyeAF and lock lever to lock the setting is useful for handling over to someone to take our pictures. Dummy proof

I really enjoy the dynamic range and high ISO this camera captured. It give me more latitude in post.

I wish it's smaller and lighter but it isn't a deal breaker. All this for $2000 is a great deal

bokehmon .. I am glad mate you enjoying this lovely camera.
For photos world, this is a great tool, you should not be worried for AF, its among the best. the concern is only for those videographers who depends on their camera a lot for AF-C.
Otherwise for most of videographers who shot manual or only occasionally in AF knowing their limits this is a great tool.
Best wishes!

@bokehmon. I totally understand you. I've felt the same when I upgraded to my A7III from my D70s (I don't change bodies often).

When you get used to your camera and its responses to situations, you'll enjoy your camera more and more.

Congrats again,
Cheers.

If that camera makes you happier than the others, then it's the right choice. I travel a lot, so I need something light and compact with fast AF-C and a great battery, so this camera is not for me.

@wasTF other than C-AF in video modes, DFD based AF in general is on par with any other mirrorless full-frame DSLR and it's nothing new only to S1, Panny's latest G models are same.

That's right!

It's better than Canon 5DIV AF in some ways. No micro adjustments, and eyeAF. It's also more sensitive in low light - 6EV.

I've used my Canon 5DIV to shoot occasionally. I wouldn't say it blow it out the water.

Regardless, I've used the camera to record my vacation in Europe and the files are much more beautiful than any Canon I've used and smaller

I second to bokehmon22 on file size and quality of footage, I used it couple of months ago in South East Asia, on number of challenging situations:

https://flic.kr/p/2eA8Mnb
https://flic.kr/p/2ey7cvZ
https://flic.kr/p/2fSqbLh

Olympus are moving to Vietnam. Not what you meant? Seriously, the EM1X and recent firmware upgrades show their intended direction, which is not the film-based sensor size bandwagon.

A pro in what, exactly? With THAT autofocus tracking performance?
Back to Panasonic's core strength. In video.

Is there still such a thing as a pro in 2019?

Agreed -

threw the lens - is it hard to believe that pros got on just fine before Sony invented eye tracking AF? Most pros will get on fine with the Panny AF. And they will love the build quality and files they get.

ohh, so you were serious :-O

It looks actually like bitrate of S1 video is worse than bitrate of GX85

the codec h.265 is more efficient, 150mbit is plenty. Its roughly same as h.264 at 300mbit.

an interesting read by the way:
https://www.eoshd.com/2019/05/hidden-10bit-5k-mode-on-the-panasonic-s1-has-huge-200mb-bitrate/

‘Arguably they failed because their potential market was not that impressed with side hinged lcd units.’

That seems like a bit of a stretch...

I've moved from an Olympus E-M5 with a (horizontal) tilt-only display to the E-M5 II with a fully articulated one. I appreciate the ability to 'tilt' vertically (eg, for portrait orientation shots above your head), which both full-articulated as well as dual-hinged displays offer. I don't think I've used the selfie position even once.

What I don't like is that:
(a) I need two movements (first flip outwards to the left, then tilt upwards) for a simple horizontal tilt
(b) now look at something that is no longer horizontally aligned with the optical axis
(c) getting a perfect parallel alignment (ie, such that the normal axis of the display is parallel to optical axis) requires some fine-tuning effort
Additionally, sometimes the image is flipped upside down (which might be due to the camera thinking that I want to rotate the display into selfie mode).

I'd thus say that for my usage scenario (tilting horizontally and vertically) dual-hinged is objectively better than fully-articulated.

Lame? What a mindless comment. I have the S1 and I know. You do not.

Rule #1 on these forums: if someone trashes a piece of equipment, they surely have not used it, probably never even seen one or put their hands on one.

The continuous autofocus tracking does seem lame from this review. Comes under "fair comment", no matter how much you resent it and the review.
I think you would be better off identifying with the photos you take, rather than the badge on the camera.

Yeah, but until Sony can step up their Video processing, I see Panasonic slowly getting ahead of the game. That's until Sony offers 10 bit but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Sony has mirrorless fast AF figured out, and of course makes great sensors. But I am surprised they haven't got anything like Panny's high res mode. Heck, I'm surprised they have lagged behind with the touchscreen on their cameras.

In any new a9II, Sony should put in a multi shot high res mode. The camera will have the processing power for it, and it would be a way to allow one to have both a high speed sports shooter camera with lower megapixels and one that can also do high res images.

the benefits of computational photography can't be fully realized, when Panasonic doesn't have any lens lineup to speak of.

and given the m4/3 history of little 3rd-party lens support for dfd, because Panasonic wouldn't support it, it's pretty clear that there won't be much in the way of 3rd-party lenses for L-mount.

people who make these grandiose claims about computational photography wrt panasonic need to understand that it requires lenses in order to work.

Again, a nonsensical and pointless comment by MILC man.

The key to understanding MILCman:
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken, 1917

*Sonyfanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy with other equipment. Roger Cicala, 2018

What does dfd lens support have to do with computational photography to such a critical degree?

@Thoughts R Us

"Sony has mirrorless fast AF figured out, and of course makes great sensors. But I am surprised they haven't got anything like Panny's high res mode."

They have.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5645755619/sony-a7r-iii-pixel-shift-lifts-a-veil-off-your-landscapes

Thoughts R Us posting false information about sony, again.

its_a_knife: I agree that Sony should offer 10 bit video, but on the other hand Sony is selling a lot more cameras then Panasonic does. And why? Because the cameras and the lenses from Panasonic are rather expensive. The only lens they have that is about the same price as a Sony lens is the 24-105 lens...
I do think the Panasonic is a terrific camera with a lot to like ( EVF, IBIS) and some down sites (size, weight and price). The AF system will work fine for most people, so I do not see that as a big downer...

and yet "Single AF is very fast and precise" and "Face, body, eye and animal AF system works well"............. i'll get me coat

Thoughts R Us: This camera has more then one weakness...
For some people the DFD AF system will be the most important, personally I think that the AF will be good enough for most people who shoot like me.
There are some other weaknesses too:
Short battery life (compared to the A7III), expensive camera, expensive lenses, size of the camera, weight of the camera, number of available native lenses, Frame rate when using CAF...
In the end this camera is still a great camera, and it will find its way to their target audience...

There are more to a camera than AF system. It's not the best but it's mile ahead of Canon 6D and better in some way than 5DIV (eyeAF).

It does exceptionally well for pose portrait, slow walking, or landscape. I have no problem shooting family, wedding, engagement, and lanscape with it.

I hope it get to Sony level but it's more usable than suggested.

Never understood that part about "balance". How are people holding their camera when the lens is heavy? So if you have a 2kg lens, you want your camera to weigh 2kg for the balance, so in total you're going to lift 4kg. I'll rather have the same 2kg lens + 500g camera, making the total weight 2.5kg, which is much more manageable, and I'll hold the lens with the left hand, the way it's meant to be.

Some folks are clueless on how to hold a camera+lens properly. I imagine these guys shoot with one hand so they thought a better grip would help. I shot extensively with just manual lenses before and two-hand operation is a must. I shot with the Sigma 105 + Sony A9 sans grip combo all day without feeling fatigue. And that lens, like most big white tele, will make any camera look unbalanced.

I guess you guys don't understand the simple physics of a lever. It is like a Lebron James on one end of the see saw and Muggsy Bogues on the other end. Not too hard to understand. I guess it all depends on the lens you are using and to that point, I agree. A lightweight, high F-stop, prime or zoom could work the other way but when you are buying a camera like this many of us are looking for a pretty "heavy" lens and there is no way around the physics of making one, despite Canon's best effort to try with the DO technology.

So balance is important to some of us especially those of us doing handheld shooting.

@Priaptor, you talked about simple physics (people love to throw this around without really showing what kind of understanding they have). To have a balanced setup, it really depends on where you place your left arm to support the camera+lens set-up (ideally right at the COG of the combo). You don't need a big and heavy camera to balance with a big lens if you know what you are doing. On top of that, Sony is shifting most of the mass in their 400 and 600 toward the camera already to bring the COG closer to the camera side so one can support the whole set-up comfortably. Since your mind is fixated on the see saw, you can only think that the middle point between end to end is where you should place your hand at, which is not true most of the time.

NO my mind is not fixated as yours is on Sony. I have nothing against either approach to what perceives a well balanced system as compared to your one track mind thinking there is only one answer. I happen to know physics well as I have a degree in physics as well as chemistry but was using the see saw mechanism for people who, like you, seem to have no clue as to one person's perception of balance compared to another who isn't necessarily a Sony acolyte. For the record I love Sony and enjoy shooting with it and was an early adopter and remember when people were jumping over the light weight of Sony compared to DSLR alternatives and ridiculing it for its light weight. I guess what goes around comes around. Another reference to simple physics

@Priaptor : LOL, using your own example, the problem is that you think the point of fulcrum is the mount, where the lens ends and the body starts, but that's a very simplistic view of things, the point of fulcrum is actually where you place your hand, so by doing this, you're able to create a perfect balance, and of course it helps if the heavy elements of the lens are at the back, which is the case for the sony 400 f2.8 and 600 f4.

The gold/silver awards are just silly things, they should drop them all together, but hey they look nice on the Amazon pages.....
There is a good reason you should read a complete review, and not only the end results when you want to decide a camera is best for you...
And to defend the award system (altough I still think they should drop it): They compare cameras from different brands and tell what camera in the group is "best". So when a camera lacks behind a little, even when it is on points that are not relevant for YOUR kind of shooting, it will not get the highest score.
And for the AF system, I think it is good enough for my kind of shooting, and the weakness of the AF system in video, Ive showed people videos with the "wobbling" (or what every you like to call it) and I asked for things they didn't like on the technical part, nobody noticed the "wobbling", one saw some rolling shutter, but didn't mind that much...
So the S1 is a great camera, but not everybody will like it...

Simultaneous video recording to 2 card slots! No such camera in the same price range can do this

aris14 "an overall better cam than its peers"

Sounds like a bit of "Policies and Politics" on your part as well.

This is a great camera, no doubt about that, but there are some weak points coming with it (like with all cameras). And these weak points are fact based. Want to hear some?
1. Battery life (much shorter then the A7III
2. AF-C: Although good for most uses, The A7III does better with more FPS
3. Weight: When you have to carry this camera a long day, compared with the A7III it is heavy and you will feel the difference...
4. This point will make #3 a little less, Price, this camera is $500 more expensive, and the lenses are more expensive then the Sony counterparts too (except for the 24-105), so there will be less money in your pocket to take with you... :)
5. Availability of lenses....
6. Size: The Panasonic is a lot larger.
So in the end it is right that they got a silver award, although this is a great camera, and in several ways better better (but also more expensive) then the A7III

@gfrensen : the points you listed, namely 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, are very important to me, and each of them is a deal breaker actually, so that makes 5 deal breakers, lol. I suspect a large amount of people will feel the same way, and they will also care about #4, so I can't really see this camera selling well at all... At least that will make the Z 6 sales look good in comparison.

:-)

The eye-af tracking ability of the A9 is intoxicating indeed, the first time I used it for event work I was positively gleeful.

There are a lot more things that is better for the Sony:
1. Battery life (much shorter then the A7III
2. AF-C: Although good for most uses, The A7III does better with more FPS
3. Weight: When you have to carry this camera a long day, compared with the A7III it is heavy and you will feel the difference...
4. This point will make #3 a little less, Price, this camera is $500 more expensive, and the lenses are more expensive then the Sony counterparts too (except for the 24-105), so there will be less money in your pocket to take with you... :)
5. Availability of lenses....
6. Size: The Panasonic is a lot larger.
So in the end it is right that they got a silver award, although this is a great camera, and in several ways better better (but also more expensive) then the A7III
For many the S1 will be a great camera, but just to expensive, especially when you want to add lenses...

ProRes Raw is through another tool, it will be available for other cameras too including S1. It's definitely a good thing, but am pointing out on dpR scoring on video comparison, where rating is for all features internal to camera. Otherwise you can add handheld gimbal and get better than S1 video stabilisation and keep adding other stuff too.

Nikon IBIS is good but not good enough for Video works, youtube is full of comparison video, do you have anything in support of your argument?

Similarly Nikon's "excellent video quality", ok but how you found it's comparable to S1?

It's not AF but AF-C in videos that is better than S1 and I agree but tbh mostly videographers including me don't use AF-C but just manual focus. No matter how good your AF-C is, it's not good enough for most of the enthusiast or pro video work. I do acknowledge it still is a good option to have anyways.

Look, am not saying Nikon is a bad camera for videos, it's just not good comparable to S1 specially in videos

* good in comparison to S1 specially in videos

StoneJack ... but its more efficient H265 codec roughly twice as efficient.

Also the upcoming full VLog firmware which will be free for current owners will give you: 4K UHD up to 30p, 10-bit 4:2:2 internal recording (At 150Mbps)

That is roughly 300Mbps equivalent of H264 thats implemented in all other full-frame mirror-less cameras.

and even now ... https://www.eoshd.com/2019/05/hidden-10bit-5k-mode-on-the-panasonic-s1-has-huge-200mb-bitrate/

Nothing to do with being soft. But since this site is the preserve of macho techie yahoo's no surprise it gets upvotes.

Given the choice people prefer smaller and lighter gear. I have met many pros who bemoan back ache and shoulder injuries from years of lugging around heavy gear.

But go ahead and flex your guns if it makes you feel better.

Have you actually held one of these? I have, and it is surprisingly big and surprisingly heavy. Heavier than say a a D850.

Its well built for sure but the first thing you notice when you pick it up is the weight.

There are obviously 2 camps regarding size/weight; those who want less, and those who at the very least don't mind more and even value it for durability and balance with heavier lenses.

There is no right or best answer: it comes down to individual preference.

The durability issue is an interesting one, because what good is any camera if it doesn't hold up over time or conditions in which it is used? One notices the size/weight instantly, but durability one has to test over time. It's really a problem all product reviewers have with no obvious solution.

It would be an interesting study if it were possible to get some accurate data on relative camera reliabilities. If it were possible that may change people's perception of different cameras and indeed the whole size/weight issue.

For instance, do smaller cameras not hold up as well over time and hard use? Maybe...but it may be a myth as well. Without data we don't know.

@rbach44 Especially when you have the 50mm lens on it - what a beast. Anyone who ventures an opinion on size/weight should have held one in their hand for at least a few minutes or, preferably, spent an hour shooting with it. I think a lot of the size/weight dismissers haven't even touched the camera.

@Thoughts R Us

I don't know of anyone, anywhere who wants a camera - or indeed any device to 'weigh more' so I dispute your claim that 'there is no right or best answer'.

Also your focus on the 'untestable' nature of 'durability' and concern that 'small cameras' may not 'hold up' seems to me to be a way of arguing that a demonstrably weak product technically is somehow good in another way, as if manufacturers made a trade off and everything ultimately evens out.

The truth is cameras do not need to be as durable as they are already. Most will become obsolete before their shutter breaks. The integrity of the body is likely to hardly ever come into question while their spec is current.

Reviewers give a picture of the relative build quality and robustness. I think it is more than enough.

@RubberDials I've seen a lot of comments in the forums about hating smaller cameras. Somewhat fewer, but still enough to notice, said they wanted heavier so it would be more "stable". I agree with thoughts r us, it's down to personal preference. Mine is smaller and lighter but I don't see the point in denying that others are opposite from me.

Also, I don't suppose you've been out hiking with your camera. I definitely want a camera that can take an occasional bump or short drop. Prefer that the manufacturers err on the side of durable. I like that my Olympus bodies can tolerate "adventure" travel like climbing in and out of boats on wet beach landings, hiking through open country bush and rock scrambling. Layer in rain, salt spray and lots of dust. I want a camera that won't quit on me.

They came out less than a year apart.

Sony review was published in less than 2 months.

Panasonic review published after nearly 5 months.

I assume ratings/award is also relative to existing competition.

A7III didn't have any worthy competition back then at its price point

@keep on zoomin the s1 has become available only on april. So 3 months only.

Although the K1 is a great camera and capable of taking great pictures, it is not a mirrorless camera. Comparing the two cameras is not fair as these are two cameras aimed at different interest groups.
The Pentax is aimed at still photographers, doing video every now and then. The Panasonic is aimed at people who do serious video and photographic work...
So it is fair they did not compared it with each other...

The gold/silver/rewards are just stupid rewards. Very good cameras (like this one) get just silver, for being late, heavy, big, expensive, and not so reliable AF). Other cameras get gold, just for being the first (like A7r, much worse Af, not really cheap (at launch))
Personally I think they should stop the award system, let people see for them selfs what camera is best for them...

Really? A silver award seems about right. Not sure what this camera offers that is not already on the market other than back strain and missed focus.

@gfrensen - Not really a valid comment. Dpreview takes the competition that is available before awarding a camera. When the A7r was launched there were no mirrorless FF cameras available at all. This Panasonic is a late entrant in an already crowded space and with one of the worst AF tracking available today.

Agreed. There aren't many cons that will prevent gold award. It is one heck of a camera. If you look at cameras which got gold award, many of them have serious issues but reviewers claim Pros are so good that Cons aren't that important.

@brendon1000 Yeah it may not have the best autofocus but for some that's not an issue at all. Having better IBIS and video specs out weigh AF in my eyes. With IBIS and solid video specs at the top of my list it pretty much blows all the other competition out of the water. So yeah, the rating system is pretty much useless because we all have out different needs when it comes to cameras. I mean I have used the S1 and I like it and everything but I am already invested in my GH5 and don't want to upgrade to FF because there's not any benefits for me. My GH5 does everything I want and more.

@brendon1000 Oooof that's quite the stretch for an argument. To say that this camera was designed primarily stills is not accurate at all. You don't offer 10 Bit 422 Vlog to a casual user. Yes, you can make that argument with Nikon, Canon, and Sony because they are only offering 8 bit codecs with their log footage, which is kinda stupid. This camera though is definitely for hybrid shooters and internet content creators. Do you even know of Panasonic's past releases? because they are all aimed for video shooters. The GH5S was created solely for video makers so I am not sure where you're getting this idea that Panasonic is only looking to take on still photographers because nothing in their history indicates that.
You're just reverberating everything DPR said about the camera as fact and I am telling you that people feel differently. People like the size. There's many people that want a well balanced camera with loinger lenses and this is the only MILC providing that. contd..

Yeah, their sales maybe low but not because it's not a solid camera. It's because it's an entirely new system to invest in, and if you're someone like me who owns a GH5, there's not much this camera can do that the GH5 can't. Possibly doc shooters will upgrade to this camera for the better AF and low light but I am not a doc shooter so I won't be upgrading. If you have a weird obsession with sensor size and are a hybrid shooter focused heavily on video, then this is a really solid camera to use.

If the Panasonic was built for video only it wouldn't be a 24 MP camera ! The GH5s has specs that not too many still photographers would want or need. Its a purpose built camera for video that happens to take stills.

And 4:2:0 10 bit Vlog is only for new users. People who buy this camera later will have to pay to get that upgrade.

If this was built for video why would Panasonic bother to release a S1H that is coming in future ?

If people loved big sizes then m43 cameras would never have sold. The size is a deterrent to most people especially when the S1 weighs 50% more than any of its competitors. You may like the camera and its a decent camera but I believe that those who need a good video camera should stick to video focused cameras like the GH5, A7s II or the upcoming S1H. This is most definitely primarily a stills camera and should be judged accordingly.

I never said this camera was for video only. I pretty clearly said it's for hybrid shooters with an emphasis on video. I am not sure what you're trying to say with that first paragraph. You just said what I said.

No, 10 bit 422 vlog is for new users. The camera comes with HLG 10 bit 420 out of box.

They're releasing the S1H for a different market than this camera. The S1H is for people going for something more cinematic where this camera is more video content.

Your last paragraph doesn't make sense. You're just repeating what I said and throwing some gibberish in there.