Panasonic Lumix DC-S1 review

For photographic needs Sony a7r iv is definitely better, but on videos, there is no comparison.

2 days agopermalink

halfniak

Thematic So why is there now "very little point" in the GFX, Hasselblad, or an Canon?

13 hours agopermalink

psurfer

I don't usually write on these things, especially after 2001 prior comments! ("2001" - cool, maybe prophetic for the future?), and arguments... so unlikely many will read this, but for those coming late, my thoughts:

I think Panasonic should be rightly applauded for this introduction to a new system. And an important thing is the idea of the L-mount System that this camera jumpstarts.

Panasonic, Leica, Sigma, combined.

With Pana at the leading edge in video/hybrids, electronics operability (e.g., EVF/LCD execution, etc); Sigma's Foveon sensor; Leica's overall command of 'gestalt', I hope and expect this system/family to eventually become the one with the most broad choices - different bodies optimized for different uses, all in the same mount native to fantastic optics (from all 3), also in a similarly broad price spectrum.

[continued following]

1 week agopermalink

psurfer

I believe Pana is in this for the long haul, and that cooperation between the 3 entities will help them all further their respective progress. Case in point being Sigma's soon to be announced FF Foveon camera in L-mount. Would they have braved it alone in SA mount? Maybe, but the advantages for bringing a specialized camera like that into the fold of this family seem hard to ignore.

I think we'll see further innovation as a result of this new trio, and that can't be anything but good for us buyers, regardless of what brand/system you're wedded to.

2 New class-leading new hybrids from Pana, w/ one more on the way.
New Sigma FF Foveon this Winter.
Leica... (may even be inspired to create a great small cam that I can actually afford -well, one can dream!)

1 week ago*permalink

For everyone who were skeptical about Panny's DFD AF improvement through a firmware (ver 1.2):
https://youtu.be/8k3a7LNe0Mw
Hope to see an updated DPReview review on S1 soon.

1 week agopermalink

Richard Butler

The video AF section of our review is already based on Firmware V1.2.

1 week agopermalink

Thanks Richard!
I got confused because it says on Panny's website that it will release on 9th July and the review was posted on 25 June.
just noticed 9/7 release is for general public.

1 week agopermalink

SridharC

Would this be more a competition to the upcoming Sony AIIIS? The Sony AIIS is great with video and low light. I am skeptical about the Panasonic - poor battery, inferior to Sony AF, and new line of lenses. Wouldn't the upcoming Sony A IIIS be a better choice as you can use Emount lenses and with a metabones adaptor all Canon Lenses?

2 weeks agopermalink

scraffoto

First thing to say is I have no dog in this fight, I use MFT and not Panasonic. The only thing I want to comment on is the panasonic sensor, and say wow. Raw shots look great at most iso's and the jpeg engine is astounding at preserving fine detail at high iso's. Well done Panasonic. The only other comment is what weird colour shifts and moire the sony exhibits, especially at higher iso's.

3 weeks agopermalink

Photos is one thing mate but this camera really excels at a much higher degree is in it's 4k video recording where it blows every other mirror-less fulframe camera out of the water; specially at higher ISOs.

3 weeks agopermalink

Great camera for product photography or architecture, museum, that kind of things.
The poor battery is really a killer, it's worse than what you get on the Z 6 and EOS R, but those 2 cameras are using small batteries, so their next iteration could use a bigger one, however Panasonic is already using a huge battery, probably their whole system is too power hungry.

3 weeks agopermalink

jeffharris

Mirrorless cameras use a lot of power between the rear screen, EVF, auto-focus, etc.. And with their smaller bodies (Panasonic S-Series excluded!), the batteries are much smaller.

The solution? Carry a couple extra batteries. Or even use a power bank and USB charger.

It's not hard, just different. You get used to it.

3 weeks agopermalink

@jeffharis : Sony a7iii and a9 prove you wrong though, the battery life is amazing and they're mirrorless + small body.

The S1 system is just not power efficient, that's the only possible explanation since it has a huge battery inside:
- DFD AF system is cpu hungry, as it must constantly analyse each frame to detect patterns, whereas a PDAF or dual pixel solution is simple + hardware.
- EVF is high res, great but that uses a lot more power.
- screen is high res, same thing.
- AI object detection: again, it seems like it's able to recognize different kind of objects at the same time, but it means is the CPU is working hard all the time. (maybe can be changed)

=> combine all those points, and you have a system that depletes a huge battery incredibly quickly, and that's what we're seeing here. Panasonic wants to attract the DSLR crowd, but this poor battery life is likely to be one of the main barriers.

3 weeks ago*permalink

808_freedive

Oh my, nothing worth commenting.

Lumix look so old - a wooden tripod would be a fitting accessory for the discerning gentleman with tophat and moustache travelling the indian territories with his blasé method of capturing native spirits souls on tiny black SPIRIT SUCKING DEVICES (SSD)

3 weeks agopermalink

Reilly Diefenbach

Down with silly hype. No one has any idea if this camera is "rugged" or a "workhorse" unless or until it's been out on the field for a few years.

3 weeks agopermalink

likewise with the "substantially better-built" claim.

these Panasonic cameras have zero track record in the field, there is no actual data that backs up any of that hype.

I've beat the tar out of my old a7r, it's been covered with dust and sand, and swamped by a giant saltwater backwash at the beach; I have confidence with sony build quality, based on over five years of outdoor use.

I hate dslrs, but i'd never claim that durability is an issue for the higher-end dslrs… you can pound nails with some of those dslr bricks, they have a proven track record.

3 weeks ago*permalink

None of the mirrorless cameras have any track record to go on with regards to reliability...the Panny's, the Sony's, etc.

I have made the same point: we don't know. All we do know is the the high end DSLRs do have a long and great track record of being used in all manner of very tough conditions and in general holding up very well.

It is a natural assumption that something that is heavier and larger would be more durable. Again, it may not be true with these mirrorless models, and we don't know without the proof of data, but it is understandable. And it is understandable because with other camera models and products, the larger and heavier products do have a track record of holding up over time in arduous conditions.

So the assumption that (larger/heavier = durability) is not crazy, and may prove to be true with mirrorless. Only time will tell.

3 weeks ago*permalink

@Thoughts R Us - "None of the mirrorless cameras have any track record to go on with regards to reliability...the Panny's, the Sony's, etc. I have made the same point: we don't know."

no, the only point that you made is that YOU don't know, because you don't have any experience with milc, especially sony.

and of course you have never used these Panasonic s1/s1r cameras, but you are constantly posting misleading claims about s1/s1r all over dpr.

I just posted over five years experience with sony ff milc, so don't make false claims that "none of the mirrorless cameras have any track record"

you do not speak for people who actually own and use milc.

3 weeks agopermalink

@Milcman: first I have tried the Panasonic S1R.

Second, your anecdotal experience means nothing. I’m sure every press agency in the world is supposed to just take your little story as evidence that Sony can hold up over time. Haha.
Also given the way you trash everything else besides Sony your claims about Sony are suspect.

There is no substantive track record of people using Sony in the toughest of conditions. In fact there are surprisingly few stores out there of people noting how durable there Sony is. No one thinks of Sony as the ultimate in reliability.

3 weeks agopermalink

@Thoughts R Us - there you go again with your sony-bashing posts.

your claims mean nothing, because you don't own sony and you don't use sony, much less any other milc, of any brand.

funny how you just told us: "I do not criticize and certainly not totally trash talk any equipment if I have not used it": https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-rf-35mm-f1-8-is-stm-macro-review?comment=3309041315

you just proved that wrong.

you've never "tried" the s1r, or the a9, which is easily proven by the fact that you have never posted any pics on dpr, of anything, since you created that dpr account back in 2009... no flickr, no Instagram, no website, nothing.

3 weeks ago*permalink

Reilly Diefenbach

I'm sure Milkman would tell us if there was a problem with any of his alleged Sony gear, lol!

3 weeks agopermalink

i'll tell you that the shutter buttons on both of my sony milcs are lousy, the half-press point is barely discernable... bbaf to the rescue.

3 weeks ago*permalink

@milcman: Prove to us that you have used your Sony and that it has held up to the condition you claim it has.

As for me, I have no need to prove myself to you or anyone else. You can believe me or not. I really don't care. I don't like to post images due to privacy concerns, and due to people like you. If I posted anything you would just try to tear me down. I don't need that.

So prove to us about your Sony claims. Go on...it's your rule that without images nothing is proven.

3 weeks agopermalink

BTW, this is one more instance of MILCman proving Roger Cicala's rule:

Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken, 1917

*Sonyfanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy with other equipment. Roger Cicala, 2018

I will add that if Sony does not make it in the camera industry, it will be due to all of their annoying online trolls who alienate people who otherwise might think better of the brand.

3 weeks agopermalink

@Thoughts R Us - "None of the mirrorless cameras have any track record"

that is your claim to prove, not ours to disprove, and so far you have totally failed to prove it.

@Thoughts R Us - "I have tried the Panasonic S1R."

you made that claim, so it's yours to prove, not ours to disprove... so where are the s1r pics that you claim to have shot?

@Thoughts R Us - "I don't like to post images due to privacy concerns"

given that it's really easy to strip the exif info out of a photo, that claim is not valid.

@Thoughts R Us - "sony… annoying online tr*lls"

just more of your sony brand-bashing and name-calling.

3 weeks ago*permalink

DDWD10

There really is no record here of MILCman actually using his Sony camera. Empty gallery... dozens of comments attacking Panasonic, but why?

3 weeks agopermalink

I've posted dozens of pics on dpr.

direct quotes and links from reputable reviewers are not "Panasonic attacks".

how come you can't tell the difference between that and Thoughts R Us calling sony owners "annoying online tr*lls"

3 weeks agopermalink

MILCman feels compelled to go into virtually every discussion of gear that is not Sony to trash talk that gear, even though he has never used it.

I've asked several times why and he gives no answer. Is he paid by Sony to do this? Or does have have some weird reason to do so?

BTW, for the record MILCman's profile lists zero photos uploaded. So when MILCman says he's posted "dozens of pics on dpr" that is clearly not true.

And yes, the Sony trolls are annoying. Like MilCman who attempt to spoil literally every discussion about everything not Sony.

3 weeks ago*permalink

@Thoughts R Us : "It is a natural assumption that something that is heavier and larger would be more durable. " => this is not a good assumption though, it's not scientific, just "feels solid". Take a piano, it's heavy and large, right? Drop it from the first floor in the garden, 99% chances that it's completely broken. Now take your ipod or usb-stick (lol) and drop it from the first floor to the garden, they will probably both survive. See what I mean.

3 weeks agopermalink

MrTaikitso

I have owned Panasonic gear since the 70s, from a radio cassette recorder to audio visual (National Panasonic/Technics/JVC - once owned by Matsushita Electric, who are now Panasonic), the GH2, various compacts, GX8 (best form factor ever), LX100 Mk1 etc. Never ever had anything go wrong with any of these. Although I like Sony's ability to make things small, most of my Sony gear (never had an A series) has failed within warranty, including f-717, RX-100 Mk1. Lightning destroyed by Sony TC-K65 Dolby Cassette Deck in the 1980s so we'll not include an act fo God.
Panasonic have always put QA first, building their own 'Panasert' assembly machines, so have control over the way components are inserted into the PCBs etc.
I would ask those with early Panasonic mirrorless cameras how they are performing today. Almost forgot, I dropped my GH2 day after I bought it, fell 4 ft onto a hard train floor, landing on it's lens, No harm done.
I am very optimistic about the S series toughness.

3 weeks agopermalink

@pollup: interesting analogy with the piano and the usb drive...but IMHO the problem is that you are comparing two different products with different levels of complexity. A better comparison would be to compare a heavier, larger piano with a lighter one.

Take a car...which car would you rather be in if you had an accident: a larger, heavier car or a smaller, lighter one? Look at the Canon 1D and Nikon D5 pro series models, they are tanks and have a record of holding up in all sorts of extreme conditions.

But I do admit that sometimes a product that is smaller/lighter can definitely be very tough and more durable than it seems.

3 weeks agopermalink

@Thoughts R Us : it doesn't matter what objects were being compared, all I did was to show that something heavier and larger CAN be a lot more fragile than something light and compact, which is enough to refute your claim.

If you want only pianos, sure, take again the big and heavy one, used for concerts, and then take a mini piano toy that can fit in your hand. Drop them both from 2 meters high and on an 45 degrees angle. Both can play music but the small and compact one is less likely to break because it's both lighter (which minimizes the force of impact) and more compact with fewer moving parts.

About cars, bad example, the main parameter is the speed, I'll rather crash in a small/light car at half the speed of a big/heavy car, because the force of impact will less than 1/4th. Same for a plane, it's even a lot more massive and designed with safety in mind, yet, if there's a crash, you're not likely to survive at all, simply because of the speed.

3 weeks ago*permalink

@pollup: obviously we can do this dueling analogy game ad infinitum.

Your second piano analogy is a stretched one as well, since you compare a working concert piano with literally a toy piano that you can fit in your hand. Boy, talk about a difference! So you have to compare the real thing with a toy in order to make your point. How about comparing a big heavy concert piano with a another real piano, only one smaller, lighter, more flimsy?

I will stick up for my car analogy; there are all kinds of accidents, and again, your comparison using half the speed makes no sense. How about this simple test: assume you are going to be in a car accident at the same speed: would you rather be in a larger, heavier car or a smaller, lighter one? It's an easy question.

The irony is that I basically agree with your premise that smaller/lighter doesn't necessarily mean less durable. Only I qualify that and note that larger/heavier often equates with more durable.

3 weeks agopermalink

jeffharris

PLEASE, Panasonic, release a reasonably sized, 24MP, rangefinder style S-series camera based on your fantastic GX8.

Fully articulated screen. tilting EVF. weather-sealed.

Just do it.

3 weeks agopermalink

juncction

TAKE MY MONEY!!!

3 weeks agopermalink

LingoDingo

Jeff, just out of curiosity, how much would you pay for a S-series rangefinder ?

3 weeks agopermalink

jeffharris

@LingoDingo
Hmmmm… good question.
$1800? Maybe $2000?

Also, aside from possibly the 24-105mm macro kit lens, I'd be using it almost exclusively with adapted Voigtländer, Jupiter and Nikon AI-S lenses.

3 weeks ago*permalink

Tatouzou

Summary of the review: this camera is really top grade, IQ, built quality, handling, ergonomics.
AF is great too. The DFD technology is specific to Panasonic, and Dpreview expected it to be subpar. Yet it proved quite efficient. It delivered a large majority of keepers even when tracking erratic moving targets.
If the user doesnt tell the camera to track faces, the AF-C still performs OK and delivers sharp shots, but the OVF preview blinkles, which the tester didnt like.
As it is better built than its siblings (A7-3?), it is bigger and heavier.
Dpreview rated it only "silver" because nowadays only Sony or Fuji deserve "gold".☺

3 weeks agopermalink

https://youtu.be/S34Tp7czj74?t=332

see this dprtv clip for an accurate summary of the af and the blackout in the evf:

3 weeks ago*permalink

The review from DPRTV and this lengthy review are two different things...they are both under the banner of DPR, but come from different sources.

DPR TV is done by Chris and Jordan. They do an excellent job in both their evaluation and in producing compelling video content. It's not easy to produce video that actually holds people's attention, and they manage to do that.

The long written reviews are done by a team of other writers/editors at DPR; I believe the take longer and involve more testing time.

Nothing wrong with either but let's realize that they are different.

I believe the only real "controversy" surrounding the Panny S1 series is with their AF. Perhaps the best summary is from this review:
"The S1's Depth from Defocus system performs well, though it doesn't track moving subjects as well as competitors with Hybrid AF systems."

3 weeks agopermalink

Don't worry too much about silver or gold.
Depending on your requirements, it can be easily the best camera in the market out there.
Best wishes

3 weeks agopermalink

@Thoughts R Us - "Nothing wrong with either but let's realize that they are different."

of course they are different, it's two different sources, what was the point of posting that.

i didn't see where dpr.com mentioned the evf blackout problem in the s1, but they did in their own way agree with dprtv about the evf going soft with af-c... it does not jive with all the claims that the s1/s1r has such a good evf:

"However the experience of using the camera to photograph a moving subject in AF-C is behind the competition because it’s almost impossible to tell whether the subject is in-focus, when shooting through the viewfinder. So while you may walk away with a lot of keepers, your confidence in hit rate will be low until you actually sit down at a computer and look at the files. This is hardly the behavior we’d want from a camera with pro-level aspirations."

dpr.com did not list that mushy evf behavior in their "what we don't like" summary.

3 weeks ago*permalink

The bottom line on the Panny AF is that it is a very good system, and the only possible "weakness" is in tracking of fast and erratic moving subjects. So like Chris noted, if you are into wildlife or sports photography, you probably look elsewhere. This is what we would expect as the Panny's are not marketed as sports cameras.

But for all other uses, the Panny AF will work fine. It's very accurate.

3 weeks agopermalink

For me, this camera disqualifies, because you cannot shoot action/running with dogs with this. It will not keep up.
So the headline "bark of approval" is really a joke. I can see why the camera is nice in alot of respects but associating a dog is just plain wrong.

3 weeks agopermalink

How do you know?

3 weeks agopermalink

evetsf

So where does this "running with dogs" show up in the review? I must have missed that...
Have you any personal experience at all with DFD & C-AF? Or is this just an assumption on your part?
Years ago I bought a Lumix FZ1000 based in large part on a comment on DPreview from a user who had tested the FZ1000 against a Sony RX10 II for exactly that purpose: shooting agility dogs in motion. The conventional CDAF in the RX10 wasn't up to the task, but the FZ1000 with DFD did just fine, thank you!
Since then I've moved on to the FZ2500, with an improved DFD over the 1000. I shoot BIF, aviation/warbirds and fast-action motorsports with it. Its DFD does just fine with those subjects as well.
So unless you have personal experience that differs, your blanket statement is literary hyperbole of the first order.

3 weeks agopermalink

Well I can understand that it might not fulfil your niche.
And also feel sorry for you, as otherwise its a great tool!

3 weeks agopermalink

@s1oth1ovechunk: Experience with G9 and GH5 both of which have DPD Autofocus system, just like the S1/R.

@Naveed Akhtar: Thats what i said also.

3 weeks ago*permalink

I bought S1 after considering Sony A7III, A7RIII, A9, EOS R. Panasonic S1 is the camera I ended buying and keeping.

No other camera check mark all the boxes I want to move away from my DSLR. Best EVF, best IBIS, dual card slot, great dynamic range and high ISO performance, fully touch screen, 400,000 shutter life, great ergonomic and work with my Canon lens. The 4K24/30 10 bit upgrade is amazing. I ended up getting the camera for $2000 and I think it's a steal.

It might be too big or AF isn't as great as competitor, but I'm used to dslr size and the AF is better than my Canon 6D & 5DIV. I'm really happy using the camera traveling with it on vacation, shooting wedding and landscape.

3 weeks agopermalink

bayindirh

Glad you found the camera which fits you and fulfills your needs.

Hope it brings better and more enjoyable photographs and photography experience in your life. :)

3 weeks ago*permalink

It definitely open more photographic opportunities for me and make it more enjoyable than my Canon 5DIV. It's really easy for me to take pictures - eyeAF, IBIS, EVF, high dynamic range.

The IBIS is useful in places that ban tripod.

The eyeAF and lock lever to lock the setting is useful for handling over to someone to take our pictures. Dummy proof

I really enjoy the dynamic range and high ISO this camera captured. It give me more latitude in post.

I wish it's smaller and lighter but it isn't a deal breaker. All this for $2000 is a great deal

3 weeks agopermalink

bokehmon .. I am glad mate you enjoying this lovely camera.
For photos world, this is a great tool, you should not be worried for AF, its among the best. the concern is only for those videographers who depends on their camera a lot for AF-C.
Otherwise for most of videographers who shot manual or only occasionally in AF knowing their limits this is a great tool.
Best wishes!

3 weeks agopermalink

bayindirh

@bokehmon. I totally understand you. I've felt the same when I upgraded to my A7III from my D70s (I don't change bodies often).

When you get used to your camera and its responses to situations, you'll enjoy your camera more and more.

Congrats again,
Cheers.

3 weeks agopermalink

If that camera makes you happier than the others, then it's the right choice. I travel a lot, so I need something light and compact with fast AF-C and a great battery, so this camera is not for me.

3 weeks ago*permalink

AF is better than 5D IV ? I highly doubt it!

3 weeks agopermalink

@wasTF other than C-AF in video modes, DFD based AF in general is on par with any other mirrorless full-frame DSLR and it's nothing new only to S1, Panny's latest G models are same.

3 weeks agopermalink

@Naveed Akhtar: Aparently you have not used and compared it well, but i have, with my dog in simmilar situations with different cameras..

But if you dont want to shoot high action running dogs, than you are ok with basically all cameras.

3 weeks agopermalink

That's right!

3 weeks agopermalink

It's better than Canon 5DIV AF in some ways. No micro adjustments, and eyeAF. It's also more sensitive in low light - 6EV.

3 weeks agopermalink

dont forget ...If you use 5D IV with dual pixel live view it blows the DPD out of the water easily...

3 weeks agopermalink

I've used my Canon 5DIV to shoot occasionally. I wouldn't say it blow it out the water.

Regardless, I've used the camera to record my vacation in Europe and the files are much more beautiful than any Canon I've used and smaller

3 weeks agopermalink

https://flic.kr/p/2eA8Mnb
https://flic.kr/p/2ey7cvZ
https://flic.kr/p/2fSqbLh

I second to bokehmon22 on file size and quality of footage, I used it couple of months ago in South East Asia, on number of challenging situations:

3 weeks agopermalink

XVOYAGERX

This camera should have had a `gold rating, `silver....ridiculous!!

3 weeks agopermalink

wsalopek

I loved the G7 (esp for travel), and would gladly kept it if C-AF was better, esp for video. That the mega-dollar (and "professional"?) S1 still uses DFD autofocus is an absolute TRAGEDY. Hey Panasonic...WAKE UP!

3 weeks agopermalink

I would suggest to give improved DFD in S1 or G9 a quick test. You may got surprised how well it works provided you are not shooting sports.

3 weeks agopermalink

Love Photography 888

Just having Leica anywhere near L mount will mean higher prices than usual.

3 weeks agopermalink

eastwestphoto

The mount is the problem for me! Are there AF adapters from other mounts to this mount L ?

3 weeks agopermalink

DDWD10

Yes, the Sigma MC-21 allows you to mount Canon EF lenses on the S1/S1R, albeit with S-AF only.

3 weeks agopermalink

dslr lenses are designed to be used with pdaf, and Panasonic L-mount does not use pdaf, so you would be limited to cdaf-only with adapted dslr lenses.

you should rent it first, see how it works with your specific lenses.

3 weeks ago*permalink

CaNikonianite

Olympus, your move.

4 weeks agopermalink

justmeMN

Olympus' camera-imaging division is a money loser, limiting the amount of available R&D money. I don't see them getting in to FF mirrorless.

3 weeks ago*permalink

deep7

Olympus are moving to Vietnam. Not what you meant? Seriously, the EM1X and recent firmware upgrades show their intended direction, which is not the film-based sensor size bandwagon.

3 weeks agopermalink

supersargas

how dramatic!!

3 weeks agopermalink

j_yeezy

Summary of the entire review:

You'll like it if you're a pro, you'll hate it if you're an enthusiast.

I just saved you 10 pages of reading.

4 weeks ago*permalink

FujLiver

not too sure
pros like performance
out and out Iq is usually not number 1 for event pros

3 weeks agopermalink

A pro in what, exactly? With THAT autofocus tracking performance?
Back to Panasonic's core strength. In video.

3 weeks ago*permalink

brownie314

Is there still such a thing as a pro in 2019?

3 weeks agopermalink

Daft Punk

Agreed -

threw the lens - is it hard to believe that pros got on just fine before Sony invented eye tracking AF? Most pros will get on fine with the Panny AF. And they will love the build quality and files they get.

3 weeks agopermalink

j_yeezy

From what I could tell with the autofocus tests, the hitrate was still very good - not Sony level but still on par or better than most mirrorless cameras. It's just the wobbling that looks weird.

3 weeks agopermalink

goodytwoshoes

"Pro look and feel" alone just don't cut it

4 weeks agopermalink

You are missing best EVF, great IBIS, dual card slot, 4K60, 4K30/24 10 bit, great dynamic range and ISO performance and good build quality.

I got an S1 for $2000. Sure it doesn't have the best eyeAF or AF but it has some some features I really like that even a much more expensive camera doesn't offer.

3 weeks agopermalink

LeeR

How did you get an S1 for $2,000?

2 days agopermalink

daruby

i am interesting, but it so high price

4 weeks agopermalink

CaNikonianite

You are interesting.

4 weeks agopermalink

brownie314

Now I am getting interesting.

3 weeks agopermalink

eivissa1

Is it just me? I can hardly find any difference in quality of 4K video shot with my GX85.
Shocking.

4 weeks agopermalink

Haaha .. very good troll line :))

4 weeks agopermalink

eivissa1

Just watch carefully the differences. You'll see I am right.

4 weeks agopermalink

ohh, so you were serious :-O

4 weeks agopermalink

DDWD10

Static frame from a brightly-lit test scene. I would be surprised if you did see a difference between them.

4 weeks agopermalink

StoneJack

It looks actually like bitrate of S1 video is worse than bitrate of GX85

3 weeks agopermalink

the codec h.265 is more efficient, 150mbit is plenty. Its roughly same as h.264 at 300mbit.

3 weeks agopermalink

an interesting read by the way:
https://www.eoshd.com/2019/05/hidden-10bit-5k-mode-on-the-panasonic-s1-has-huge-200mb-bitrate/

3 weeks agopermalink

Why do people keep repeating this misinformation about h265 being 2x as efficient as h264.

This is only true at low but rates. For 1080p by 10mbps there is basically no difference.

3 weeks agopermalink

XVOYAGERX

It looks actually like bitrate of S1 video is worse than bitrate of GX85

EH??????

3 weeks agopermalink

Tom Caldwell

Dpreview tests are still saying that a side hinged lcd is superior to a tilt one whilst I would argue that the type of hinge is a matter of choice and there is a strong body of opinion that supports each type.

Therefore picking out the fully articulated lcd as superior is only indicating the personal choice of the reviewer and not really an indicator of whether or not it has any proven technical superiority.

I cannot have noticed all the Sony A7 series owners who are somehow buying A7 type bodies and fuming because they are not side hinged and fully articulating.

It is reviews such as this that presumably sent Olympus (Pen-F) and Panasonic (GX8) down the wrong track with side hinged fully articulated lcd units. Arguably they failed because their potential market was not that impressed with side hinged lcd units.

The second hinged (for portrait mode) lcd of the S1 is very acceptable (for me) and much better than the side hinged lcd on the G9 which is the only blot in its copybook.

4 weeks agopermalink

I do not like the side hinge too, it makes your camera wider when doing shots close to the ground or above your head. I do hardly do any "selfies" or things like that, but low angle shots a lot.
I can understand that for [people who are doing selfies or vlogs the side hinge can be useful, but I doubt that many people will use this camera for that reason, as it is to big and expensive...
I know that people will tell that THEY use this camera for that purpose, but they are in the minority of the target audience for this camera...

4 weeks agopermalink

tassienick

‘Arguably they failed because their potential market was not that impressed with side hinged lcd units.’

That seems like a bit of a stretch...

4 weeks agopermalink

noirdesir

I've moved from an Olympus E-M5 with a (horizontal) tilt-only display to the E-M5 II with a fully articulated one. I appreciate the ability to 'tilt' vertically (eg, for portrait orientation shots above your head), which both full-articulated as well as dual-hinged displays offer. I don't think I've used the selfie position even once.

What I don't like is that:
(a) I need two movements (first flip outwards to the left, then tilt upwards) for a simple horizontal tilt
(b) now look at something that is no longer horizontally aligned with the optical axis
(c) getting a perfect parallel alignment (ie, such that the normal axis of the display is parallel to optical axis) requires some fine-tuning effort
Additionally, sometimes the image is flipped upside down (which might be due to the camera thinking that I want to rotate the display into selfie mode).

I'd thus say that for my usage scenario (tilting horizontally and vertically) dual-hinged is objectively better than fully-articulated.

4 weeks agopermalink

lathspell

"Arguably they failed because their potential market was not that impressed with side hinged lcd units."

Gosh, and I thought the GX8 failed mainly because of its high price, shutter shock and poor IBIS … :D

3 weeks agopermalink

RStyga

The larger-the-more-pro-looking fad is back. What ever happened to DLSM advantage of compactness? Gone with the wind...

4 weeks agopermalink

There are still plenty of smaller mirrorless cameras on the market. But people have found out that a bit larger size has some advantages too.

The market offers choice; one size does not fit all.

4 weeks agopermalink

Tom Caldwell

One of the beauties of M4/3 is the diversity of camera body sizes and shapes that are offered. Give Panasonic some breathing space ... assuredly if M4/3 experience is to be repeated we might see some - break-ranks and variety of camera body shapes. The S1/S1R are aimed a bit higher in the market for the average entry level shooter.

Surely there is room for more RF-Style bodies and compact bodies in L-Mount will come in the due passage of time.

Otherwise we are faced with and endless supply of variations on the faux-dslr theme. Such is the power of dslr/slr nostalgia - but it wil all change once the dslr-type shape starts looking “oh so old fashioned”.

4 weeks agopermalink

Vanitas Photo

Dpreview:The Panasonic S1, and its sibling the S1R, are the only full-frame mirrorless cameras on the market that handle and feel as if they were built to truly pro-level standards

Sony A9: Am I a joke to you?

4 weeks agopermalink

What is the sensor readout speed of the DC-S1, please?
One can test this with an oscilloscope. Someone must have figured it out already.
One of the selling points to me of mirrorless is the truly silent shutter. I think Olympus with E-M1 II have a 1/60s already and Sony with A9 have 1/160s. It also helps with rolling shutter artefacts in video.
(Please don't quote the polling speed of 480fps for the DFD AF, it is completely different).
Unfortunately with the lame autofocus this camera doesn't appear to have the magic combination of workable video AF to go along with high frame rates.

4 weeks agopermalink

Ruairi

Not tried A9 yet, but compared to A7ii, DFD is lightening fast, lame it is not.

4 weeks agopermalink

Lame? What a mindless comment. I have the S1 and I know. You do not.

4 weeks agopermalink

Rule #1 on these forums: if someone trashes a piece of equipment, they surely have not used it, probably never even seen one or put their hands on one.

4 weeks agopermalink

The continuous autofocus tracking does seem lame from this review. Comes under "fair comment", no matter how much you resent it and the review.
I think you would be better off identifying with the photos you take, rather than the badge on the camera.

3 weeks ago*permalink

Most probably around 1/30 sec, just like on the A7R3, A73 and Z 6. EOS R is much slower though. And yes you're right about the A9 being 1/160.
(Next time I use the S1, I will measure it)

3 weeks ago*permalink

tsalix

Why do you people bother with your silly negative comments about a camera that 99.9% of you have not even tried? And judging by your uneducated responses to this and other reviews I suspect the vast majority of you rarely or never use interchangeable lens camera of any type and that almost all of your photography occurs on a mobile phone.

From which you post your delightful little pics to Facebook and Instagram in order to get thumbs-ups and love hearts. Yet you are so critical of professional camera systems.

I don't bother reading Sony or Canon reviews as I have no interest in their cameras or lenses and wouldn't waste my energy picking out bits of info from reviews to then spew forth inconsequential rubbish.

4 weeks agopermalink

One rule on these forums: if someone is just outright criticizing a piece of equipment, they most likely have never used it.

Because all equipment is so good these days, if one actually used it one would appreciate that and offer at the very least a more measured critique of both positives and negatives.

4 weeks agopermalink

tedolf

Had a bad day?

Tedolph

3 weeks agopermalink

tedolf

That thing is huge.

Why not just go medium format?

tEdolph

4 weeks agopermalink

deep7

The answer is cost and mob perspective but, in truth, even sensors as small as the one inch ones are excellent and the 35mm format is, in practical terms, the medium format of today. Most of us understand that the advantages of going to medium format digital, with its cost and lens limitations, limit it to a small percentage of photographers.

Personally, I sort of agree. Use m43/APSC or smaller for most uses, medium format when a larger sensor makes sense. I am possibly in a minority...

3 weeks agopermalink

(unknown member)

This camera is not too big!
All other mirrorless cameras are TOO SMALL!

4 weeks agopermalink

Lenses balance very well on the S1 - that is a fact. I have the S1 and currently own the 24-105 and 70-200.

4 weeks ago*permalink

LoneTree1

Kind of kills the whole idea of mirrorless in the first place. People who have abandoned cameras for phones in large measure did it for convenience, because they can carry a phone in a pocket. But then they didn't have increasing huge lenses to mount either.

3 weeks agopermalink

Right now Panasonic with their multi shot hi-res mode and their 6K video for photo mode, I would say is the leader in computational photography for cameras other than smartphones.

Both of those tricks are really well implemented. In fact it's kind of amazing that they got that high res mode to work even with some limited motion in the subject or among the photographer hand holding the unit.

Just because of the way that computational photography is emerging, I would not underestimate Panasonic.

4 weeks agopermalink

Correct. As electronics companies it will really be Panasonic and Sony - the two heavyweights - leading the way forward with sophisticated camera technology.

4 weeks agopermalink

Yeah, but until Sony can step up their Video processing, I see Panasonic slowly getting ahead of the game. That's until Sony offers 10 bit but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

4 weeks agopermalink

Sony has mirrorless fast AF figured out, and of course makes great sensors. But I am surprised they haven't got anything like Panny's high res mode. Heck, I'm surprised they have lagged behind with the touchscreen on their cameras.

In any new a9II, Sony should put in a multi shot high res mode. The camera will have the processing power for it, and it would be a way to allow one to have both a high speed sports shooter camera with lower megapixels and one that can also do high res images.

4 weeks agopermalink

the benefits of computational photography can't be fully realized, when Panasonic doesn't have any lens lineup to speak of.

and given the m4/3 history of little 3rd-party lens support for dfd, because Panasonic wouldn't support it, it's pretty clear that there won't be much in the way of 3rd-party lenses for L-mount.

people who make these grandiose claims about computational photography wrt panasonic need to understand that it requires lenses in order to work.

4 weeks ago*permalink

Again, a nonsensical and pointless comment by MILC man.

4 weeks agopermalink

The key to understanding MILCman:
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy. H. L. Mencken, 1917

*Sonyfanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy with other equipment. Roger Cicala, 2018

4 weeks agopermalink

https://www.dpreview.com/news/5645755619/sony-a7r-iii-pixel-shift-lifts-a-veil-off-your-landscapes

What does dfd lens support have to do with computational photography to such a critical degree?

4 weeks agopermalink

RubberDials

@Thoughts R Us

"Sony has mirrorless fast AF figured out, and of course makes great sensors. But I am surprised they haven't got anything like Panny's high res mode."

They have.

4 weeks agopermalink

Thoughts R Us posting false information about sony, again.

4 weeks agopermalink

its_a_knife: I agree that Sony should offer 10 bit video, but on the other hand Sony is selling a lot more cameras then Panasonic does. And why? Because the cameras and the lenses from Panasonic are rather expensive. The only lens they have that is about the same price as a Sony lens is the 24-105 lens...
I do think the Panasonic is a terrific camera with a lot to like ( EVF, IBIS) and some down sites (size, weight and price). The AF system will work fine for most people, so I do not see that as a big downer...

4 weeks agopermalink

I don't disagree with computational photography is going to be the way of the future. Panasonic multi-shot implementation is way ahead of the competition as well. But this is a rarely used feature, I wouldn't say it's a game changer by any mean. We still need to see how Panasonic will plan out their lens release and how quickly they can release them. Right now without an ability to seamlessly adapt more lenses, Panasonic is at a great disadvantage. It feels like a beta system for most people hence the poor sale. For however bad the Canikon mirrorless bodies are, they got it right with the adapters for their DSLR lenses. That would greatly ease it in for people who want to try mirrorless out. I will wait another year or two to know if Panasonic will be truly a force to be recognized or just a blip like they have been so far.

3 weeks agopermalink

Greg7579

Well written review. Really attractive camera. I love reading reviews on all these great new cameras.
I don't mind the size too much because I just went even more radically in the direction of big with Fuji MF after shooting Fuji APSC a long time after shooting big SLRs and DSLRs for decades.... It's all relative and there are a lot of choices that are all really good. 99 percent of people are shooting phones anyway, so having any camera like this makes you special. 😄
Greg in San Antonio
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmxcYVbq

4 weeks agopermalink

JackM

"AF system less reliable than competition"

Next.

4 weeks agopermalink

Really the only "weakness" in the camera is its AF system. If you don't shoot a lot of action, esp. erratically moving action, then the AF will work fine.

It is a bit weird if you try it for the first time to experience the hunting the the lens can do at times to acquire AF. The AF is very accurate though so when it locks it produces a sharp shot.

Even then, people who've used the camera enough to learn the AF system report that if you understand it then it functions better than most reports.

If one manual focuses though, you are in for a treat. That EVF makes manual focusing a breeze. In fact it's so good that you almost want to use manual focus all of the time.

As with all tools, there are tradeoffs. It just depends on the set of trade offs that is best for each user.

4 weeks agopermalink

Wu Jiaqiu

and yet "Single AF is very fast and precise" and "Face, body, eye and animal AF system works well"............. i'll get me coat

4 weeks agopermalink

Thoughts R Us: This camera has more then one weakness...
For some people the DFD AF system will be the most important, personally I think that the AF will be good enough for most people who shoot like me.
There are some other weaknesses too:
Short battery life (compared to the A7III), expensive camera, expensive lenses, size of the camera, weight of the camera, number of available native lenses, Frame rate when using CAF...
In the end this camera is still a great camera, and it will find its way to their target audience...

4 weeks agopermalink

There are more to a camera than AF system. It's not the best but it's mile ahead of Canon 6D and better in some way than 5DIV (eyeAF).

It does exceptionally well for pose portrait, slow walking, or landscape. I have no problem shooting family, wedding, engagement, and lanscape with it.

I hope it get to Sony level but it's more usable than suggested.

3 weeks agopermalink

And for people to switch, it's more than just a camera that will be evaluated. This system without a large, uncompromised lens selection is a hard pill to swallow. I'm not quite sure any pro would switch right now. Not sure when EVF (not that it doesn't have its own set of problems) or IBIS becomes more important than the AF performance, Sensor performance and lens selection. Give it a couple of years to see if this system is worthy given what direction Panasonic is going to take. If you're happy to be a beta tester, so be it :D

3 weeks agopermalink

Priaptor

I'm a critic of those who are critics of reviews. From my perch, reviews, whether it be cameras, stereos, cars, etc are looked at by some as validating their purchase or their own opinions. Who cares. I use these reviews first to understand the equipment, see it's capabilities (or lack thereof) and whether it pushes my buttons.

Just one anecdote to my perspective. DPR's criticism of weight and size, I look at as a positive. I think companies like Sony have moved to making their stuff too light and unbalanced.

4 weeks agopermalink

Dylthedog

Horses for courses. I dumped my Canon gear due to size and other things.

The difference is if you're in the market now, you have a choice. Big and great quality, small and great quality.

That wasn't a choice a while ago.

4 weeks agopermalink

captura

This was an excellent review.

4 weeks agopermalink

Never understood that part about "balance". How are people holding their camera when the lens is heavy? So if you have a 2kg lens, you want your camera to weigh 2kg for the balance, so in total you're going to lift 4kg. I'll rather have the same 2kg lens + 500g camera, making the total weight 2.5kg, which is much more manageable, and I'll hold the lens with the left hand, the way it's meant to be.

3 weeks agopermalink

Some folks are clueless on how to hold a camera+lens properly. I imagine these guys shoot with one hand so they thought a better grip would help. I shot extensively with just manual lenses before and two-hand operation is a must. I shot with the Sigma 105 + Sony A9 sans grip combo all day without feeling fatigue. And that lens, like most big white tele, will make any camera look unbalanced.

3 weeks agopermalink

Priaptor

I guess you guys don't understand the simple physics of a lever. It is like a Lebron James on one end of the see saw and Muggsy Bogues on the other end. Not too hard to understand. I guess it all depends on the lens you are using and to that point, I agree. A lightweight, high F-stop, prime or zoom could work the other way but when you are buying a camera like this many of us are looking for a pretty "heavy" lens and there is no way around the physics of making one, despite Canon's best effort to try with the DO technology.

So balance is important to some of us especially those of us doing handheld shooting.

3 weeks ago*permalink

@Priaptor, you talked about simple physics (people love to throw this around without really showing what kind of understanding they have). To have a balanced setup, it really depends on where you place your left arm to support the camera+lens set-up (ideally right at the COG of the combo). You don't need a big and heavy camera to balance with a big lens if you know what you are doing. On top of that, Sony is shifting most of the mass in their 400 and 600 toward the camera already to bring the COG closer to the camera side so one can support the whole set-up comfortably. Since your mind is fixated on the see saw, you can only think that the middle point between end to end is where you should place your hand at, which is not true most of the time.

3 weeks agopermalink

Priaptor

NO my mind is not fixated as yours is on Sony. I have nothing against either approach to what perceives a well balanced system as compared to your one track mind thinking there is only one answer. I happen to know physics well as I have a degree in physics as well as chemistry but was using the see saw mechanism for people who, like you, seem to have no clue as to one person's perception of balance compared to another who isn't necessarily a Sony acolyte. For the record I love Sony and enjoy shooting with it and was an early adopter and remember when people were jumping over the light weight of Sony compared to DSLR alternatives and ridiculing it for its light weight. I guess what goes around comes around. Another reference to simple physics

3 weeks agopermalink

@Priaptor : LOL, using your own example, the problem is that you think the point of fulcrum is the mount, where the lens ends and the body starts, but that's a very simplistic view of things, the point of fulcrum is actually where you place your hand, so by doing this, you're able to create a perfect balance, and of course it helps if the heavy elements of the lens are at the back, which is the case for the sony 400 f2.8 and 600 f4.

3 weeks agopermalink

@Priaptor: At no point I'm saying Sony's ergo is the only way LOL. It was you who criticized that Sony went all small and unbalanced. I don't care if you have a degree in physics and chemistry if your understanding of the subject is not correct. Stop using physics even though you haven't demonstrated your understanding of the subject. Real physics and perception are not the same thing either. One is objective (physics) and one is subjective (perception). Learn where to place your supporting hand and you will be fine.

3 weeks agopermalink

Cameraman1982

NOT SO GOOD FOR: "Photographers requiring a top-notch autofocus system. Those looking for a lighter, more portable body." So, WHAT WILL THE SCORE BE like if I want it for all its features listed in the "Pros" list and (1) Don't mind a less than top-notch AF system and (2) I am looking for solid pro body and don't mind its weight?

4 weeks agopermalink

Gold Award, which is what it should have been given anyway. The AF is just fine for most situations. And it is loaded with features in a tank body. And then there is the video - which will undergo a further fantastic upgrade in July (free for those of us that currently own the camera).

4 weeks agopermalink

The gold/silver awards are just silly things, they should drop them all together, but hey they look nice on the Amazon pages.....
There is a good reason you should read a complete review, and not only the end results when you want to decide a camera is best for you...
And to defend the award system (altough I still think they should drop it): They compare cameras from different brands and tell what camera in the group is "best". So when a camera lacks behind a little, even when it is on points that are not relevant for YOUR kind of shooting, it will not get the highest score.
And for the AF system, I think it is good enough for my kind of shooting, and the weakness of the AF system in video, Ive showed people videos with the "wobbling" (or what every you like to call it) and I asked for things they didn't like on the technical part, nobody noticed the "wobbling", one saw some rolling shutter, but didn't mind that much...
So the S1 is a great camera, but not everybody will like it...

4 weeks agopermalink

Cameraman1982

Simultaneous video recording to 2 card slots! No such camera in the same price range can do this

4 weeks agopermalink

@gfrensen "There is a good reason you should read a complete review, and not only the end results when you want to decide a camera is best for you..." => I think that a review is not even enough, honestly, especially for such a camera. A lot of people are going to be surprised when they receive it and hold it for the first time, because it's just so heavy. I tried multiple cameras in Japan with some local friends, and whenever they held the S1, their reaction was like "wow it's too heavy". It's not easy to convey that feeling of weight in a review, which is why people absolutely need to test their future cameras in real life unless they're already familiar with that particular system of course. (ex: if they get the S1R afterwards, they can expect it to feel like the S1).

3 weeks agopermalink

aris14

The S1 is an overall better cam than its peers meaning that its scoring here basically relies on the interpretation of its pros and cons which as a fact rather depicts perceptions and trends than facts. It's Sony peer still holds its place, Nikon made a honest effort, Canon buys time.
Policies and politics followed by reviewers and testers is not something to concern their audience unless some of this audience's specific part feeling they share the very same way of thinking/approaching, as we already have witnessed even in DPR.

4 weeks agopermalink

Michiel953

"an overall better cam than its peers"??? Please elaborate.

4 weeks agopermalink

tbcass

aris14 "an overall better cam than its peers"

Sounds like a bit of "Policies and Politics" on your part as well.

4 weeks agopermalink

This is a great camera, no doubt about that, but there are some weak points coming with it (like with all cameras). And these weak points are fact based. Want to hear some?
1. Battery life (much shorter then the A7III
2. AF-C: Although good for most uses, The A7III does better with more FPS
3. Weight: When you have to carry this camera a long day, compared with the A7III it is heavy and you will feel the difference...
4. This point will make #3 a little less, Price, this camera is $500 more expensive, and the lenses are more expensive then the Sony counterparts too (except for the 24-105), so there will be less money in your pocket to take with you... :)
5. Availability of lenses....
6. Size: The Panasonic is a lot larger.
So in the end it is right that they got a silver award, although this is a great camera, and in several ways better better (but also more expensive) then the A7III

4 weeks agopermalink

@gfrensen : the points you listed, namely 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, are very important to me, and each of them is a deal breaker actually, so that makes 5 deal breakers, lol. I suspect a large amount of people will feel the same way, and they will also care about #4, so I can't really see this camera selling well at all... At least that will make the Z 6 sales look good in comparison.

3 weeks agopermalink

under achieving in obscurity

@pollup I completely agree with you on all the points. I do not think Panasonic expected a lot of sold cameras, and are aiming at a niche market, just as they do with their GHx cameras...

3 weeks agopermalink

Fotoni

Now I can say that Dpreview does not hate Pentax itself. They hate its weight, size and autofocus performance. Dpreview seems to value action shooting performance a lot and convenience. If these are not great, it is auto silver award or less no matter what. If you guys don't value them as high, S1 seems to be the best consumer level video camera there is right now especially for low light. Luckily autofocus is not that important in video shooting.

4 weeks agopermalink

The camera may have got a Silver award, but the review gets a GOLD as usual; DPreview as always is the goto for high standard reviews.
I’m soooo waiting for the S1R review to be posted; however, I have a premonition that it will get a silver award and 89%, as DPreview TV put the S1R above the Z7 but below the A7RIII.
That said, I love Panasonic as a brand and have heaps of their products, I’m also heavily invested in MFT and have some legacy Nikon DX lenses. I’m torn between what to buy as a FF compliment to my MFT system; I could get the Z7 with the FTZ adaptor, or just wipe the slate clean and get the A7RIII with GM glass which is actually really price competitive at present.
The weight and bulk of the S1/S1R don’t put me off as I have alternatives as mentioned above for occasions where that may be a problem; also as action photography is not a priority for me then the AF system wouldn’t present much of a problem, but the A7RIII is a really compelling option!

4 weeks agopermalink

under achieving in obscurity

Actually, why bother with all this nonsense when the new Samsung Note 10 is on the horizon?

4 weeks agopermalink

tbcass

:-)

4 weeks agopermalink

So you won't buy it if it gets a Silver award?

4 weeks agopermalink

pannumon

I know older Nikon lenses are dependent on the body (focus, aperture control), but I guess in this case I am pretty sure you could use your Nikon glass with Sony or Panasonic just as well as with Z?

4 weeks agopermalink

Marco-Colombo

Strange review. The authors describe a professional level camera that in many cases seems to be more than what the competitors offer, but then the rating is lower...
Anyway Panasonic at its first fullframe has hit the target.
The weight and size are not negative, on the opposite, they allow a better balance with heavier and more professional optics.
There is time and space for a future SX rangefinder-style camera that will certainly be lighter and cheaper.
On paper, the SL system seems the most promising and extensive.

4 weeks ago*permalink

That Sony tracking AF must be quite intoxicating. That's the only explanation I can come up with. Having never seen this magical AF, I also don't understand the review.

4 weeks agopermalink

Dan Cook

The eye-af tracking ability of the A9 is intoxicating indeed, the first time I used it for event work I was positively gleeful.

4 weeks agopermalink

There are a lot more things that is better for the Sony:
1. Battery life (much shorter then the A7III
2. AF-C: Although good for most uses, The A7III does better with more FPS
3. Weight: When you have to carry this camera a long day, compared with the A7III it is heavy and you will feel the difference...
4. This point will make #3 a little less, Price, this camera is $500 more expensive, and the lenses are more expensive then the Sony counterparts too (except for the 24-105), so there will be less money in your pocket to take with you... :)
5. Availability of lenses....
6. Size: The Panasonic is a lot larger.
So in the end it is right that they got a silver award, although this is a great camera, and in several ways better better (but also more expensive) then the A7III
For many the S1 will be a great camera, but just to expensive, especially when you want to add lenses...

4 weeks agopermalink

ChristianC1975

@gfrensen, do you need to copy/paste the same in each answer? It looks... well, you know how that looks.

4 weeks agopermalink

Richard Katakuri

Great camera, love the size and handling experience. Spent a lot of time comparing with the z6 and a73. But for me the S1 ticks most of the boxes. Currently using with a Zeiss sonnar 1.5. Lovely combo.

4 weeks agopermalink

Hey Rich, is your sonnar l-mount?

4 weeks agopermalink

Dan JT

No it’s on a M to L adapter

4 weeks agopermalink

Good review ..

However, in the comparison with Z6 (the other camera I have been tossing with S1), the video is rated better on Z6. Really?

Maybe C-Af is better on Z6, but overall video and video quality, as tested by individual reviewers on you-tube is at-least a stop better. Also S1 got the only dependable Video stabilisation system, and then better Codecs, (V-Log is also coming), 10 bit recording internal, 60fps in crop mode, unlimited recording.

4 weeks agopermalink

StoneJack

Nikon's AF in video is much much better than DFD.
I have camera with DFD and Nikon Z, so I know the difference. In addition, Nikon's new IBIS is very good and internal video is excellent too, in addition RroResRaw on Ninja is coming.

4 weeks agopermalink

ProRes Raw is through another tool, it will be available for other cameras too including S1. It's definitely a good thing, but am pointing out on dpR scoring on video comparison, where rating is for all features internal to camera. Otherwise you can add handheld gimbal and get better than S1 video stabilisation and keep adding other stuff too.

Nikon IBIS is good but not good enough for Video works, youtube is full of comparison video, do you have anything in support of your argument?

Similarly Nikon's "excellent video quality", ok but how you found it's comparable to S1?

It's not AF but AF-C in videos that is better than S1 and I agree but tbh mostly videographers including me don't use AF-C but just manual focus. No matter how good your AF-C is, it's not good enough for most of the enthusiast or pro video work. I do acknowledge it still is a good option to have anyways.

Look, am not saying Nikon is a bad camera for videos, it's just not good comparable to S1 specially in videos

4 weeks agopermalink

* good in comparison to S1 specially in videos

4 weeks agopermalink

StoneJack

Yes, please check the video quality.
Nikon Z6 in full frame video gives 144 mbps
Panasonic in full frame goes only to 100 mbps.

3 weeks agopermalink

StoneJack ... but its more efficient H265 codec roughly twice as efficient.

Also the upcoming full VLog firmware which will be free for current owners will give you: 4K UHD up to 30p, 10-bit 4:2:2 internal recording (At 150Mbps)

That is roughly 300Mbps equivalent of H264 thats implemented in all other full-frame mirror-less cameras.

and even now ... https://www.eoshd.com/2019/05/hidden-10bit-5k-mode-on-the-panasonic-s1-has-huge-200mb-bitrate/

3 weeks agopermalink

At the end of the day, like I said many times, Panasonic is good for videographer and some hybrid shooters. But the majority of the still shooters would have to think long and hard before switching to this system.

3 weeks agopermalink

Keep on Zoomin

It's cute how almost every 'con' section repetitively whines about "omg so big & heavy.."

How soft we have become. With lenses on the S1 is better balanced and the weight difference negligible.

Plus you can use the S1 to hammer fragile dead sony bodies into fragments. : )

4 weeks ago*permalink

Abel89er

I just gave you an upvote for the "to hammer fragile dead sony bodies into fragments" hahaha Sony user in here but also sense of humour user :P

4 weeks agopermalink

User9362470513

Nothing to do with being soft. But since this site is the preserve of macho techie yahoo's no surprise it gets upvotes.

Given the choice people prefer smaller and lighter gear. I have met many pros who bemoan back ache and shoulder injuries from years of lugging around heavy gear.

But go ahead and flex your guns if it makes you feel better.

4 weeks agopermalink

rbach44

Have you actually held one of these? I have, and it is surprisingly big and surprisingly heavy. Heavier than say a a D850.

Its well built for sure but the first thing you notice when you pick it up is the weight.

4 weeks agopermalink

There are obviously 2 camps regarding size/weight; those who want less, and those who at the very least don't mind more and even value it for durability and balance with heavier lenses.

There is no right or best answer: it comes down to individual preference.

The durability issue is an interesting one, because what good is any camera if it doesn't hold up over time or conditions in which it is used? One notices the size/weight instantly, but durability one has to test over time. It's really a problem all product reviewers have with no obvious solution.

It would be an interesting study if it were possible to get some accurate data on relative camera reliabilities. If it were possible that may change people's perception of different cameras and indeed the whole size/weight issue.

For instance, do smaller cameras not hold up as well over time and hard use? Maybe...but it may be a myth as well. Without data we don't know.

4 weeks agopermalink

phil from seattle

@rbach44 Especially when you have the 50mm lens on it - what a beast. Anyone who ventures an opinion on size/weight should have held one in their hand for at least a few minutes or, preferably, spent an hour shooting with it. I think a lot of the size/weight dismissers haven't even touched the camera.

4 weeks agopermalink

I like your humour, but the size and weight might not a problem for ever body, but I know a lot of people who will let their camera at home, because it is to large and heavy....
And that "balancing" thing it is just funny. I own a camera with a pancake lens, I always place my hand under the lens when I shoot, to add stability. I do the same with longer lenses.... The "stability" is as much a real thing as the difference in colour "science"....

4 weeks agopermalink

RubberDials

@Thoughts R Us

I don't know of anyone, anywhere who wants a camera - or indeed any device to 'weigh more' so I dispute your claim that 'there is no right or best answer'.

Also your focus on the 'untestable' nature of 'durability' and concern that 'small cameras' may not 'hold up' seems to me to be a way of arguing that a demonstrably weak product technically is somehow good in another way, as if manufacturers made a trade off and everything ultimately evens out.

The truth is cameras do not need to be as durable as they are already. Most will become obsolete before their shutter breaks. The integrity of the body is likely to hardly ever come into question while their spec is current.

Reviewers give a picture of the relative build quality and robustness. I think it is more than enough.

3 weeks agopermalink

phil from seattle

@RubberDials I've seen a lot of comments in the forums about hating smaller cameras. Somewhat fewer, but still enough to notice, said they wanted heavier so it would be more "stable". I agree with thoughts r us, it's down to personal preference. Mine is smaller and lighter but I don't see the point in denying that others are opposite from me.

Also, I don't suppose you've been out hiking with your camera. I definitely want a camera that can take an occasional bump or short drop. Prefer that the manufacturers err on the side of durable. I like that my Olympus bodies can tolerate "adventure" travel like climbing in and out of boats on wet beach landings, hiking through open country bush and rock scrambling. Layer in rain, salt spray and lots of dust. I want a camera that won't quit on me.

3 weeks agopermalink

RubberDials

@Phil

Yeah, many Canon and Nikon users will tell you that they couldn't use a Sony FF camera - or even pick it up or that it hurt their hand or whatever.

I'm not retired like you, but I'm old enough to remember cameras before they bloated into the ridiculous sizes they are now. You should too. Whether or not users on these forums see it, these processes are trends and are subject to change. Canon and Nikon's mirrorless cameras are significantly smaller than their DSLRs. Big cameras are going to go away.

The S1 bucks the trend of Canon, Nikon and Sony, but this is an attempt to steal uncommitted (and unreformed) DSLR customers from Canikon before they make the jump to mirrorless. If the S1 doesn't sell in high numbers - and I'm not convinced it will - expect Panasonic to bring out a smaller S2.

Not sure why you suppose I've never been hiking. I used to lug about a Rolleiflex 6008/6003 and tripod. But no I don't need to test my gear out against the wrath of god as some seem to here.

3 weeks agopermalink

Kirinblue

This review was a joy to read. Well written in an informative and engaging style, Kudos to the writers, more like this please.

4 weeks agopermalink

jack1976

Nah, still prefer my X-T3

4 weeks agopermalink

edn80

Why was it reviewed without its V-LOG video update which is only 10 days away?

The update is also free for all S1 owners and those buying the camera before September 31st. Why not mention that at all on the VLOG review page?

Also, why are the 89% Z6 and 88% S1 Silver and the 89% A7III Gold?!?!!

4 weeks ago*permalink

DaPonti

Even if there was a direct correlation between score and award (there isn't), keep in mind the A7 III was reviewed over a year ago. The standard for gold only increases with time. The S1 is better than the A7 in some aspects but it arrives a year later and costs 25% more so any shortcoming, like less reliable AF, will make it hard to justify top score.

4 weeks agopermalink

Keep on Zoomin

They came out less than a year apart.

Sony review was published in less than 2 months.

Panasonic review published after nearly 5 months.

4 weeks agopermalink

Ryan_Valiente

I assume ratings/award is also relative to existing competition.

A7III didn't have any worthy competition back then at its price point

4 weeks agopermalink

Abel89er

@keep on zoomin the s1 has become available only on april. So 3 months only.

4 weeks agopermalink

I would love to see DPREVIEW to drop that silly award system, as it does not realy good to their excellent reviews... The only good reason I can think of is how well a gold or silver reword looks on the Amazon pages....
And for this camera, it is a great camera with a lot of great features, but it is behind the A7IIIwhen you look at: 1. Battery life (much shorter then the A7III
2. AF-C: Although good for most uses, The A7III does better with more FPS
3. Weight: When you have to carry this camera a long day, compared with the A7III it is heavy and you will feel the difference...
4. This point will make #3 a little less, Price, this camera is $500 more expensive, and the lenses are more expensive then the Sony counterparts too (except for the 24-105), so there will be less money in your pocket to take with you... :)
5. Availability of lenses....
6. Size: The Panasonic is a lot larger.
So in the end it is right that they got a silver award

4 weeks agopermalink

is it better than the K1? The K1 is smaller and lighter has in body stabilization and better battery life, better pixel shift tech and more mega pixels for 1/2 the price.

If you say the AF on the S1 is not the greatest and its for stills and landscape etc, then the k1 is the closest competitor. And its way cheaper and way better lenses. Wouldn't you want to tell your readers this? To save them money?

4 weeks ago*permalink

Better pixel shift tech? Your opinion just lost any sense of objectivity.

4 weeks agopermalink

Although the K1 is a great camera and capable of taking great pictures, it is not a mirrorless camera. Comparing the two cameras is not fair as these are two cameras aimed at different interest groups.
The Pentax is aimed at still photographers, doing video every now and then. The Panasonic is aimed at people who do serious video and photographic work...
So it is fair they did not compared it with each other...

4 weeks agopermalink

ozturert

"is it better than the K1?"
Yes it is, in many ways except from number of pixels.

4 weeks agopermalink

@s2oth1lovechunk pentax has the patent for pixel shift. Read about it. Its the best application of this technology. WHy do you think its worse? it does it all for you in camera. Easy. Minimal wasted time on the computer doing merging or whatever mumbo jumbo you have to do in photoshop. I dont know how the S1 does it, but at the very least, it will be the same.

@gfrensen why should people care that its mirrorless? Its the same size and does all the same things excpet video. If you want video, pay the extra 1000 dollars. Honestly, what is another advantage of mirrorless in this compairson. They are the same size and weight. The k1 DSLR is actually smaller with cheaper lenses that are just as good.

4 weeks ago*permalink

@ozturert in what ways other than video? Keep in mind this review said it was meant for stills. How is the S1 more than 1000 dollars better than the K1?

4 weeks ago*permalink

Bless you, you don't already know that high end Panasonic cameras are video cameras with as good stills capability as possible. Not as good stills capability at VFM level with nominal video thrown in an attempt to pull the punters. Very different markets.

4 weeks agopermalink

The Pentax takes 4 shots. The Panasonic takes 8. Both have full color information at each pixel but the Panasonic has increased spatial resolution. Both are done in camera. Why would you assume Pentax is better without knowing what Panasonic does?

This website has Panasonic's hi res shots in it's studio test scene. I've compared to other cameras hi res and I think Panasonic looks the best. I'm not sure if they have Pentax hi res in the studio test scene but if they do you can compare for yourself.

4 weeks agopermalink

I just looked at the studio test scene. They do have the k1ii pixel shift and the comparison isn't even close. The Panasonic is clearly better (I looked at the s1).

4 weeks agopermalink

Mike Sandman

Silver award... OK, the continuous autofocus is not leading edge, and it's big and heavy, but the pro's of this camera are a heck of a lot longer list than the con's. The higher cost is justified by the better build. And sometimes big is beautiful. Based purely on what's written in the review, doesn't It deserve a higher rating?

(Written by a Sony shooter)

4 weeks agopermalink

Not really. The camera is good no doubt but its not really class leading in the highly contested space it is fighting in. The A7 III has really upped the game in that space but maybe the second gen cameras from Nikon, Canon and Panasonic will set the reviews on fire.

4 weeks agopermalink

The gold/silver/rewards are just stupid rewards. Very good cameras (like this one) get just silver, for being late, heavy, big, expensive, and not so reliable AF). Other cameras get gold, just for being the first (like A7r, much worse Af, not really cheap (at launch))
Personally I think they should stop the award system, let people see for them selfs what camera is best for them...

4 weeks agopermalink

User9362470513

Really? A silver award seems about right. Not sure what this camera offers that is not already on the market other than back strain and missed focus.

4 weeks agopermalink

@gfrensen - Not really a valid comment. Dpreview takes the competition that is available before awarding a camera. When the A7r was launched there were no mirrorless FF cameras available at all. This Panasonic is a late entrant in an already crowded space and with one of the worst AF tracking available today.

4 weeks agopermalink

ozturert

Agreed. There aren't many cons that will prevent gold award. It is one heck of a camera. If you look at cameras which got gold award, many of them have serious issues but reviewers claim Pros are so good that Cons aren't that important.

4 weeks ago*permalink

Craig from Nevada

I wouldn't take the awards too seriously, either Silver or Gold. Just start with January 1, 2017 through the present and count the awards handed out for those reviews that are eligible. Most cameras reviewed on this site receive a gold or silver award from the reviewers. It is not an objective standard. The only thing that is noteworthy is when a camera does not receive a reward.

The substance are the written sections coupled with the score. This allows the reader to determine how to weight categories for him/herself.

DPReview should hand the rewards out once each year--one gold and one silver and let the camera makers fight it out.

4 weeks ago*permalink

@brendon1000 Yeah it may not have the best autofocus but for some that's not an issue at all. Having better IBIS and video specs out weigh AF in my eyes. With IBIS and solid video specs at the top of my list it pretty much blows all the other competition out of the water. So yeah, the rating system is pretty much useless because we all have out different needs when it comes to cameras. I mean I have used the S1 and I like it and everything but I am already invested in my GH5 and don't want to upgrade to FF because there's not any benefits for me. My GH5 does everything I want and more.

4 weeks agopermalink

its built the same as the k1 and the k1 never gets points for this

4 weeks agopermalink

@its_a_knife - At the end of the day these cameras are primarily designed for still photography. That it can be used for professional video doesn't change the fact that the shape and lenses are all primarily designed for still photography.

So DPreview will focus on judging this camera as a still camera and AF tracking is where this camera is nowhere near the best. And then there is the issue of the huge size and weight which is a put off for many people. Its not a perfect system of course but DPreview isn't the only one not very impressed with the camera. The sales have been pretty bad as well as consumers don't seem very impressed with the new Panasonic offerings.

4 weeks agopermalink

@brendon1000 Oooof that's quite the stretch for an argument. To say that this camera was designed primarily stills is not accurate at all. You don't offer 10 Bit 422 Vlog to a casual user. Yes, you can make that argument with Nikon, Canon, and Sony because they are only offering 8 bit codecs with their log footage, which is kinda stupid. This camera though is definitely for hybrid shooters and internet content creators. Do you even know of Panasonic's past releases? because they are all aimed for video shooters. The GH5S was created solely for video makers so I am not sure where you're getting this idea that Panasonic is only looking to take on still photographers because nothing in their history indicates that.
You're just reverberating everything DPR said about the camera as fact and I am telling you that people feel differently. People like the size. There's many people that want a well balanced camera with loinger lenses and this is the only MILC providing that. contd..

4 weeks agopermalink

Yeah, their sales maybe low but not because it's not a solid camera. It's because it's an entirely new system to invest in, and if you're someone like me who owns a GH5, there's not much this camera can do that the GH5 can't. Possibly doc shooters will upgrade to this camera for the better AF and low light but I am not a doc shooter so I won't be upgrading. If you have a weird obsession with sensor size and are a hybrid shooter focused heavily on video, then this is a really solid camera to use.

4 weeks agopermalink

If the Panasonic was built for video only it wouldn't be a 24 MP camera ! The GH5s has specs that not too many still photographers would want or need. Its a purpose built camera for video that happens to take stills.

And 4:2:0 10 bit Vlog is only for new users. People who buy this camera later will have to pay to get that upgrade.

If this was built for video why would Panasonic bother to release a S1H that is coming in future ?

If people loved big sizes then m43 cameras would never have sold. The size is a deterrent to most people especially when the S1 weighs 50% more than any of its competitors. You may like the camera and its a decent camera but I believe that those who need a good video camera should stick to video focused cameras like the GH5, A7s II or the upcoming S1H. This is most definitely primarily a stills camera and should be judged accordingly.

4 weeks agopermalink

I never said this camera was for video only. I pretty clearly said it's for hybrid shooters with an emphasis on video. I am not sure what you're trying to say with that first paragraph. You just said what I said.

No, 10 bit 422 vlog is for new users. The camera comes with HLG 10 bit 420 out of box.

They're releasing the S1H for a different market than this camera. The S1H is for people going for something more cinematic where this camera is more video content.

Your last paragraph doesn't make sense. You're just repeating what I said and throwing some gibberish in there.

4 weeks agopermalink

My point is very simple. You keep saying that the video performance is good. I keep saying that it's not really relevant for this camera as people buy it mostly for stills and very few buy it primarily for video only. So as a stills camera it's decent but not the best which is why i believe the silver award is justified not Gold.

If the camera had the best video performance in the world it still wouldn't matter to most people as its a stills camera.

4 weeks agopermalink

Yeah, it's not a primary stills camera. It's a hybrid camera. It's for people who need to do both with an emphasis on very high quality video.

My point is very simple. Panasonic has never ever been primarily about stills. Other than the G9, all their cameras have been aimed towards hybrid shooters.

3 weeks agopermalink

Wingsfan

Looks like a great hybrid system for most people, although a bit expensive relative to the ( arguably ) benchmark A7m3, at least as far as amateur/enthusiasts are concerned.... Will be interesting to see how the Af system works for most people, as this is not intended to be a sports/action camera.

I really like it a lot, and have had great experiences with my Panasonic gear. I think it will do well in the market. A lot of m43 users will be comfortable with the Panasonic name, even if the bodies are larger than most other FF systems.

4 weeks agopermalink

ekaton

Except for pros the buyer base for high end camera gear is shrinking and aging. Yet the SL mount alliance decided that bodies and lenses must be big and bigger and weight more and more. To shlep such weight and size around I tolerate only the best handheld IQ solution money can buy. And currently this is MF with the new Fuji 100MP monster. Yes, I am one of those who want mirrorless to be relatively compact and lightweight. I think Sony and Nikon are on the right path.

4 weeks agopermalink

MrImprovement

Load up the scene comparison tool.

Load Fuji 100Mp, 50MP, and, Sigma quattro SD H at high res (to match approximate size of what is displayed) and the Sigma DP1 Merrill.

Then start pixel peeping.

4 weeks agopermalink

the new sigma full frame mirrorless is going to be amazing

4 weeks agopermalink

I got to play around with an S1R ever so briefly, and my observations were these:

1) The EVF transforms the experience. It is so nice to use. Because of the EVF, manual focusing is not only ridiculously easy but fun. I look forward to seeing this EVF on other cameras, including the new GFX 100.

2) The camera is really well built; you feel confident in the build quality.

3) The 6K photo mode is pretty cool and seems to work well. It basically gives you 18MP photos at 30 fps capability.

4) The high res multi shot mode also works well; I even tried it handheld and it worked on the mode 2 that will correct for some motion.

All in all, a very nice camera.

4 weeks agopermalink

Zvonimir Tosic

This scoring is full of contradictions, but, considering that DPR staff had to make a public score for always unhappy and self-contradicting amateurs, who complain about anything and everything, this "88%" translates into 98% for the professionals. They know what they do, and know exactly why they buy certain equipment.

4 weeks agopermalink

4sofnature

That'd be true if professionals are willing to buy into a new system that is not class-leading.

4 weeks agopermalink

I do know some professionals and what you tell is not 100% true. One of them has to travel a lot and just loves the smaller size of the camera.
The other does product shots, his camera is on a tripod all day. He doesn't care about the size of his gear (using a Hasselblad)
An other is doing portraits, mostly hand held, he is holding his camera all day, mostly inside his studio, sometimes in nature. He loves it when his camera is small and light.
For some the price is important (especially when you travel a lot and theft or loss of your camera is a reasonable danger) for lower insurance... For some fast AF is important for others...
There is not one type of professional photographer at all, there are many types with different needs.
For some of these people the A7xx is the best others will like other brands or types,,

4 weeks agopermalink

eliehbk

Nice to have options, good job Panasonic

4 weeks agopermalink

Gesture

Once the dust settles, please compare PENTAX, PANASONIC, LEICA, SIGMA, NIKON, CANON, SONY full frame in a single article.

4 weeks agopermalink

Why not throw in Fuji apsc too?

4 weeks agopermalink

MyReality

You do not have to wait. I can compare mirrorless body and lens combinations for you in order of best to worst: 1. Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Canon, Panasonic, Leica, Sigma, Pentax.

4 weeks agopermalink