Striding Forth: Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Review

I can appreciate that but why did you criticize the articulating screen of the A99ii while praising the fixed screen of the Canon. Seems pretty inconsistent to me.

I think it's probably been stated throughout the (many) comments on the a99 II, but the Sony's screen isn't touch-enabled while Canon's touch interface is one of the most polished on the market, the Sony's screen is a magnet for fingerprints even without touch sensitivity, the protective coating degrades quickly and requires replacement for best visibility sooner than you might think, and a majority (though not all) of the staff finds the Sony's tilting mechanism to be fiddly in actual use, especially with the camera on a tripod.

But especially for the above quote you've selected, we find touch functionality to be generally as useful if not more so than tilting functionality. Having both, of course, would be ideal.

Then we'll have to disagree on this because I find an articulating non touch screen way, way a thousand times more useful than a fixed touch screen. You let too much of your personal prejudices and opinions influence you on this. I would have to say that at a minimum a flip screen is an absolute necessity on anything but a pocket camera these days making the 5D IV about an 80 rating in my book. A touch screen is just a nice feature and nothing more. I believe that most people agree with me on this as a recent DPR poll pointed out.

BTW, I have owned various Sony cameras since 2008 and have never had the coating disintegrate. I simply don't understand the idea that Sony's articulating screen is fiddly since I find it really easy to manipulate including for tripod use. I wish I lived in Seattle so I could show you how to use the darn thing.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, then unfortunately, but I do respect and understand your opinion. As for the screen coatings, that's interesting - about half of ours have that problem, as well as a fellow coworker who has an original a99, and they don't see much abuse (we try to be very careful with our loaner gear). That said, you can simply peel off the protective layer and apply another one, so it's not a deal breaker, really, just an observation.

Yes, I realise that, the point I was making is that this hasn't been proven to be applicable to the a99ii model. It is quite possible that Sony have taken this issue on board, and fixed it on the a99ii. I'm sure potential purchasers would like to know whether Sony has sorted this potential problem.

I certainly agree that it is wise with ANY camera, to fit a screen protector. It's the very first thing I do when I buy a new camera, and doesn't affect touch-screen usability (at least, not with the 5DMkiv or 80D, I can't vouch for other touch screens).

@tbcass "A touch screen is just a nice feature and nothing more."

"PERIOD!" - Sean "Spicy" Spicer

I agree on the fully articulating screen...should have one on EVERY camera. I miss my g12 dearly, and while I'd love an 80d, going back to a almost full size crop body....errr....not exactly what i wanted to do....ah well.

@tbcass+EdwardArtiste
I don't like tilting screens at all... I'm really hating it, it needs more space to get build, is prone to get broken and is sometimes really badly protected against dust or water. I think the Tiltscreen-idea is outdated since the current bodies have WLAN and a smartphone is *WAY* more practical in every angle. There are nice solutions to clip it to the flashsocket if you want it tilted. It's even larger.

All the cons don't really matter, by autofocus does. Yes it takes time to refine AF, but 4 attempts and still not good? Look at the Nikon D750 review and there is no issue with AF. Nikon have got it right, but Canon seems to lack the commitment to get AF right in the 5D series. Remember the Canon CEO said at a tradeshoow that there is nothing wrong with the original 5D autofocus, so no need to improve the 5DMKII autofocus.

I can't be sure about the Mark II, but the original EOS 5D, and both the Mark III and IV were all launched for $3400, which means they've actually got cheaper in real terms, as time has gone on.

Carrmack - A piece of information that you may not be aware of. Canon regularly sends out on-line feedback forms to its existing customers - I've had several of these during the last 3 or 4 years. The forms include questions such as:
Do you want complete redesigns, or iterative changes?
What is more important to you - more megapixels or greater dynamic range?
How important is video to you?
Do you want built in flash?
Do you want an articulated screen?
Do you want an AA filter?
etc, etc.
My response was to ask for improved dynamic range and reduced noise at high ISO. I stated that 30MP was sufficient as they already have 50MP models. I said I preferred a fixed touch screen. I said I preferred iterative changes rather than revolutionary changes.
I got almost exactly what I asked for, so presumably most other respondents asked Canon for exactly the same things.

Carmack - I find it sad that Canon is losing ground. I've owned or used almost all of them at some stage and found them very pleasurable to use, and to provide fine images.

I chose my 5DS over the 5DSR because I don't want to risk the unslightly moire effects that sometimes affect cameras fitted with AA filters. I shoot wildlife with fine details like fur, feathers and butterfly wing scales, all of which can be affected by moire. 5DS images sharpen up extremely well, without introducing moire.

A fully articulated (80D-style) screen would be very handy, but might increase fragility. My cameras get bashed regularly and have to be tough. I've seen my 5DS go crashing down onto boulders twice, once having fallen out of a rucksack that I forgot to zip up properly when working in a hurry, the other time when I tripped. It survived these ordeals with little more than a couple of scuff marks.

why would anybody read review comments after they bought the product ? It reminds me of the people in the UK who Googled " what is the EU " after they voted for Brexit.

Why not Pentax K-1?
The review compares EOS 5D Mark IV to Sony A7RII and Nikon D810. Did the author forget that Pentax made an extraordinary FF camera, thanks to its IBIS/SR, Pixel Shift, Isovariance and sensor hardware process?

George Zip - That is completely illogical. If you purchased the camera and thought it was awesome, why were you then swayed by someone else's opinion? Either it suited you or it didn't. Yes, Canon have fallen behind in the race for ever-better specifications, but as a picture-making machine, the 5DMkiv is extremely well designed. I have criticisms of it of course, e.g. I would greatly prefer twin SD slots, many users would like an articulated screen, but it is still nevertheless an excellent machine for stills photography.

You are right, EOS 5DMark IV is a nice camera but so expensive compared to Pentax K-1 for example...

I was only kidding. I was being sarcastic. I love my 5D4. It is an awesome camera

armandino - I agree that the 5DMkiv is a very "safe" upgrade for owners of 5DMkiii or earlier. I'd certainly be very happy to exchange my 5DMkiii for the 5DMkiv and run the latter alongside my 5DS.

The problem is that innovative companies like Sony (and in the M43 world, Olympus) are offering features that open up new areas of photography, whereas Canon are not (with the exception of dual pixel AF). And even the less innovative but highly regarded Nikon, produce cameras that are a couple of years ahead of Canon in specification and performance (e.g. AF subject tracking), and equally reliable, for a lower price.

I dig that there is better value for money, and there is more innovation. Me personally, I favour reliability, stellar lens availability and ergonomics. This camera ticks those requirements. But one thing that makes this camera really really good is the AF system. It is truly outstanding. Also the metering is excellent. At the end of the day, I want to take good photos and this camera helps me do that. Innovation is great, but innovation for the sake of it is not always a good thing IMO.

armandino - I totally agree that Sony are setting a blazing pace. Personally I find the a7Rii still a bit "fiddly" and prefer Canon ergonomics.

As we have both pointed out in previous threads, the a99ii could be a game-changer (hate that expression), combining extremely good DSLR-style ergonomics with the best tech that Sony can offer.

The next generation of Sony will probably blow Canon and Nikon out of the water, but at this current moment, I can do everything that I want to do (and it's quite an extensive list) with the 5DS.

'Inside the cabinet' is - strictly speaking - how we should express that phrase but I think that sounds even weirder.

For my kind of photography and new interests, high ISO was my paramount concern. So hell no I did not look at other differences because in the first place they won't matter to me.

Then this camera is not for you. Except the better dynamic range and the flexibility of the files at any iso there is no difference at high iso.

Indeed. And how do I find out it's not for me? By reading reviews and comments, right?

I have the 6D, the 5DMKIVs iso is superior to the 6D. Try bringing up an underexposed raw image by say, 5 stops on each. If you like banded, green noisy darks then the 6D is for you. Not me, on my 5DMKIV shooting at 6,400 I still have very usable images.

I'll take your word for it since you've seen it on both cameras. However, my 6D does not produce the banding you described. Further, I seldom take a shot so underexposed with an intent to pump up.

My niche is Mountain Real Estate which often requires shooting interiors of dark cabins and layering in a 10 stop swing from the dark areas of a room to the outside views often with reflective lake thru the windows. While other brands that might have a better Dynamic Range, the MKIV is blazing fast and very accurate with it's new AF system. I'm comfortable with its touch screen menu and color reproduction My 6D was the interim camera from my MKII. The 6D had better focus and lower noise at higher iso, for me, it filled the gap waiting for the MKIV and held its own against the MKIII. I'm just exploring the new features of the MKIV and for my use it's already a no brainer. Depending on what your needs are it might not be the right camera for you or someone else. Now with that said, it's not a leap forward like the previous iterations like from the 5D to the 5D II but it's a well rounded camera that will be an excellent upgrade for many still shooters.

Only two things that can be done to substantially improve high ISO performance

Back illuminate/improve microlenses, will buy less than a stop maximum, and at significant expense.
2. replace bayer matrix with 3 sensors, or "foveon" sensor. Not sure how well it could work with back illumination. maybe one stop improvement.

reducing readout noise won't get you very far:

ISO100 full well ~= 80000e
18% grey ~=14000e
simple shadows (-3ev from 18% grey) ~=1800e
shot noise in shadow = sqrt(1200e) ~= 42e

iso25600 full well ~= 312e
18% grey ~=56e
simple shadows (-3ev from 18% grey) ~=7e
shot noise in shadow = sqrt(5e) ~= 2.7e

readout noise on my 6D at ISO 25600 ~= 1.6e

Less readout noise is nice, but we are shot noise limited @ISO25600.

Low ISO is a different matter, there the 5DIV wins by a country mile.

Check out this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAN3ElBtMyU

I'm still debating whether I should upgrade to the 5D IV from 6D, but their performance is almost identical in high ISO, and in fact the 5D IV showed more color banding compared to the 6D as seen in the video. From the value perspective, its $1K vs 3.5K...

Noogy - Try checking the file flexibilty and you might be converted. 5DMkiv is still not quite up to the standard of D810 or a7Rii but is way better than previous Canons. You can pull a 4 stops underexposed 5DMkiv image without noise or banding - that's a 2 stop gain over the 6D.

Wow, I have a Nikon D3s and is right up there with my son's 5D Mk III and IV, BUT, I rarely use it. Try ISO (used to be ASA) 800, love it! Great 11 x 14 prints w/good color saturation.

Guess I will never be a "Camera Whore".

If you have a 10 To array of SSD's connected via thunderbolt 3, then you're fine and can watch a good 2 minutes clip almost smoothly on any recent MacPro.

Just because YOU own a Nikon D810 doesn't make it a " far better" camera than the 5Ds, and i don't think that ANY camera for that matter in the world is " far better" than the 5ds. It doesn't even matter what you recommend, most people on this planet Earth go with Canon, because they are just better, cooler, have way better lenses, and it looks nice to have them at events or weddings, versus the Nikon.

@entoman - the 5D4 is a considerable advance over the 5D3. For example, higher resolution, significantly greater DR at base ISO and better high ISO performance, improved AF and metering, higher frame rate, DPAF, improved user interface as well as 4k video with in-camera frame-grabbing.

The 5D4 outdoes the D810 as well as an all round camera. While the D810 has higher DR at base ISO, it has lost this advantage by ISO 400 and lags behind the 5D4 by the best part of an f/stop at higher ISOs. The D810 maxes out at 5FPS in FF mode. The new AF on the 5D4 outperforms the older AF on the D810.

The touchscreen improves the usability of the camera (Canon already has a superb interface). The 5D4 has 4k video and in-camera frame grabbing. No Nikon camera has this feature.

@AdrianPocea Sounds like I hit a nerve. Don't take things so personally. I simply stated my opinion, and in this case I'm not wrong. The D810 is a far better camera all around feature for feature over the 5DS. Why do you think Canon created the 5DSR and charged more? Because they know that in order to get the absolute sharpest picture the absence of a low pass filter is necessary. Currently the 5DSR is $3700. The D810 is only $2800. For $900 less you get the same features on the D810, plus far better Dynamic Range, a headphone jack, 1080p 60FPS, built-in flash and Zebra Stripes in video live view. Value-wise the 5DSR is simply, NOT a value against the Nikon. Only a Canon person needs that.

"Most people on this planet earth go with Canon". Lordy, that sounds so fanboyish.

@Yossarian1. I would be laughing Canon out of town if the 5D4 wasn't better "overall" than the Nikon D810 which is 2 years older. Even though it's APS-C, I would say the Nikon D500 is a better value feature for feature over the overpriced Canon 5D4.
To be honest, Canon has a lot to worry about. Sony's new A99II creams the 5D4 in every which way, and at $3200 it's still $300 cheaper than the Canon. Like I said, unless someone's life is tied up in Canon lenses and is in dire need to retire their old camera then there's not a whole lot about the 5D4 that screams "GOTTA HAVE IT".
Thankfully I don't have any bias here. I'm brand agnostic. Shame there are too many Canon apologists here to see past this brand.

The D500 is a lovely camera and at the moment is the best APS-C camera available but possibly delivered 2 years too late (many wildlife shooters went to the 7DII, tired of waiting for the D300s upgrade).

The D500's stills AF is rated very highly, particulalry in 3-D tracking, and is one of the standout features of the D500. The D500 also has the "reach" advantage of APS-C cameras which tend to push it into the sports/wildlife specialty area (much like the 7DII). You should note that the D500's 4k is also heavily cropped and it lacks a decent liveview AF system.

The 5D4 has a FF sensor which gives it a number of key advantages over the D500, particularly in signal to noise. It also has higher resolution which gives more scope in cropping and noise managment. Its stills AF is none too shabby, losing out only to the Nikon in regard to 3-D tracking. It kills any Nikon in liveview.

I have already said that the A99II looks a beast of a camera and am looking forward to the review.

@ Yossarian1 "The 5D4 has a FF sensor which gives it a number of key advantages over the D500, particularly in signal to noise. It also has higher resolution which gives more scope in cropping and noise managment."

You forgot to mention that the 5D4 is nearly double in price over the D500. Doubtful that it can be justified. There are definitely pro photographers that are opting for APS-C cameras, especially now that Nikon has really stepped up the game in the D500. Funny how you say that people were "tired of waiting for the D300 upgrade". Oh really? Which people are you referring to? Camera forum junkies techie bloggers and YouTubers which tend to represent less than 1/10th of a percent of a large corporation's customer base?

I don't personally think the 5D4 is a bad camera, but my biggest issue is it's honestly nothing more than Canon answering Sony. The dual pixel auto focus is a great but where are the rest of the innovations in this camera? There really aren't any.

The Nikon D300S was launched in 2009. The 7D was launched the same year (about 3 months after the D300S) with a higher spec sheet (same frame rate, higher ISO performance and more resolution). Canon further upped the ante in 2014 with the launch of the 7D2 (10FPS and a further advanced AF as well as improvements in ISO).

For a number of years, Nikon owners were looking for the response to both the 7D and then the 7D2 (remember all those D400 rumours). It wasn’t until earlier this year (nearly 7 years on from the launch of the D300S) when out of the blue Nikon announced the D500.

http://resourcemagonline.com/2016/01/developing-nikon-surprises-with-unexpected-d500-announement/61999/

The D500 is a welcome addition and some say better late than never. But in those nearly 7 years, a number of wildlife and sports photographers moved to the 7D and more recently the 7DII because it gave them what they were looking for – high FPS, great AF in a relatively indestructible package.

@Yossarian1. Point taken, but you can't deny there's nothing currently in the Canon world that beats or even matches the D500 in the same category. They still have no professional 4K APS-C camera that competes with the D500. I can't honestly give Canon's features the innovation tag for putting high FPS in their 7DII. Sure, that's definitely a feature many could use, but the reason why Canon gets criticized here often is because they are on their high horse due to having a customer base that's bought into their ecosystem, and it's not easy for those people to switch. Henceforth Canon constantly being stagnant on real innovations. Sony definitely has it's issues and they are playing games with their customers by releasing new bodies too often, but there's no question about it that Sony woke Canon up and that's why the 5D4 came out.

You are right - the D500 is the number 1 APS-C stills camera with its class-leading sensor and AF. The 7D2 comes closest out of the Canon range in terms of FPS but its older sensor and AF don't match the performance of the D500.

Sony's A6300 would be the better choice for 4K video if that's important.

Guys, you are mixing apples and oranges a lot. You are talking about APS-C, autofocus speed, than all of a sudden you throw in 4k, video features. It is a mess. Canon 5ds is the best studio portrait camera, period. Close to medium format quality, and one tenth of the price. Canon 70-200 is by far the best in its class. period. People that make money out of photography are covering this kind of investment in two -three photo sessions. Not even wedding planner or brides are going to hire you if you show up with a Nikon D-500. You are saying "unless you have a lot of Canon lenses"... Yeah, that is the whole point... Lenses... It's like you guys are talking about soft boxes or flash triggers. People invested during the years over 10-15 thousand dollars in lenses, for a reason. Because they were better.

To clarify, I was addressing my comments to Canon users, giving my opinion on whether they should upgrade. I was not addressing the Canon vs Nikon debate.

As it happens, I agree that the D810 beats the 5DS in terms of value and specification. I also think that the Sony A7iiR flounces BOTH of these cameras on spec and value. But, that doesn't alter the fact that I prefer the 5DS. It is a joy to use, it produces amazing results and it accepts what is my purposes the best range of lenses available.

If I had all my gear stolen, would I switch brands? Probably not. I'm not a fanboy, having used just about every format and brand on the market at various stages, so I'd certainly take a long hard look at Sony a7iiR, Nikon D810 and Pentax K1, but I'm pretty damn sure it's Canon who would get my money again.

@entoman. If I had all my gear stolen, would I switch brands? Probably not. I'm not a fanboy, having used just about every format and brand on the market at various stages, so I'd certainly take a long hard look at Sony a7iiR, Nikon D810 and Pentax K1, but I'm pretty damn sure it's Canon who would get my money again."

And this above that I quoted is exactly why Canon overprices their cameras and will never change. They know their customers will never dare to move away, even if there are far better choices.

"never dare to move away"???

I "dared" to move from TLRs to 35mm SLRS. I "dared" to move from Praktica to Miranda to Yashica to Contax to Nikon to Minolta. I "dared" to move to DSLRs starting with Sony, then switching to Nikon and currently Canon.

In the 8 years I've been using Canon, I've "dared" to run Sony a7R with metabones alongside my Canons. I've "dared" to extensively field test Olympus EM-1 and Fujifilm XT1.

I do this because I constantly strive for the best combination of image quality, reliability, completeness of system etc, in a field of technology that is constantly advancing.

I don't stay with Canon because I'm afraid to try something else or because I own a Canon lens system. I stay with Canon because I happen to enjoy using them to make pictures far more than any other brand I've tested. That doesn't make me a fanboy, it makes me someone who is open-minded, but very happy with the system I currently own use.

On your final point about Canon prices, I agree.

Get an A7RII, you can use the same lens system. Excellent IQ and video output. That is what I have, I keep a 1DX and a 7DII for sports, but the A7RII handles everything else elegantly, even with Canon glass.

Totally Agree A7RII will do what you need, Canon need to learn to Innovate and Sack whoever's in charge of R&D because for the last 3 or 4 releases they have been such a let down

armandino does it everheat elegantly also?