2017 Roundup: $1200-2000 interchangeable lens cameras: crop-sensor

Right John, a cropped sensor is a good term for APC with a 35mm format lens.
Not for m4/3 and Fuji, which are full frame in their own territory.
Its convenient but until your talking about lenses for 35 mm (called littlepict (kleinbeeld or Kleinbild) in some areas in Europe, as to contradict to MF) on APC format camera.
Lets talk about fov.

The old 35mm film size was defined and known at the film era as "crop format" or even more widely as "miniature format". It wasn't "full frame" at any point until Olympus released a "half frame" PEN cameras that used same 135 film roll and used a half of the frame in vertical form, to double the amount of exposures per roll.
At that moment the "Half Frame" and "Full Frame" were coined.

When the APS-C came along, 35mm users were confused as suddenly their 50mm wasn't giving them a 50mm field of view but a narrower. Their 28mm wide angle wasn't anymore so wide and 35mm wasn't anymore wide angle lens.

The APS-C sensor can be called as "Crop Sensor" because Canon and Nikon chose to share the same mount between APS-C and 35mm in transition era. But everyone else like 4/3" are as much full frames as are 35mm sensors full frames.

If wanted to be truthful. 35mm sensor would be called "small format"
APS-C would be called "Half-Frame" even when it is smaller.
4/3" would be "mini format".

Translation: These comparisons are inherently flawed because my camera choice was not picked as the best.

A slow kit lens and a slow camera over 2000 dollars is absolute deal

Very much so, to oil a old LEICA film cam has the very much the same cost for oil/overhaul a Rolex, started @$500.

These things can be used for 100+ years if you keep feeding them $500 once a while.

Hewn from a single block of marketing gimmick. Leicas first camera fully designed by the marketing team while the Engineers and photographers were all on leave

It's great that you love your A6500, but have you tried them up against all the other contenders here? I'm pretty sure all these cameras are pretty darn good in their own way, there are so few poor cameras now that reviewers have very little to criticize now.

The winner list is mostly arbitrary and IMO kinda useless for all but the criminally lazy. Best to ignore it.

For my money I think that the IBIS found in the EM1 ii, Pen F, and to a lesser degree the A6500 is a feature that make those cameras easier to recommend to everybody than the XT-2. The bottom line is that you get substantially more keepers with IBIS than without unless you're very technically proficient. Video quality improves substantially as well. It's a huge experience changing feature that doesn't get enough weight in these roundups.

Not trying to be an a whole but micro 4/3 is terrible over ISO 3200..

M43 will always come in a distant 3rd or 4th place. You can add ibis, touch screens, bluetooth, WiFi, but the sensor size, low light performance will always keep it from the top spot. Cost/Performance hurts it in IQ, not so much in video.

Dear Revenant,
"I certainly don't believe that DPR deliberately chose price ranges that would disadvantage Pentax..."
I never said that. I said that the decision on the grouping is not fair. As anyone here i cary an opinion and my personal take is that Kp aims cameras like PEN F. Kp should be compared to this group. Also, having the two stronger Pentax bodies in one group and no camera in this group leads to two direct conclusions. First that Pentax does not diserve to be in the higher category and secondly that in the other ($900-1200) category K3ii fights Kp and vise versa and "internal" comparisons spreads minus to both and lowers them vs competition.
In any case, while "no optimum for all companies" grouping may be possible, it was unthoughtfull of dpreview to omit Pentax from this category.

In fairness the GH5 is very large for a mirrorless m43 camera { with good reason ,I suspect for cooling etc } Compared to other mirrorless cameras with 2x or even 4x larger sensors it is large in fact outside Sony SLT cameras it is amongst the largest mirrorless cameras on the market . Personally being in the ham sized fist gang I prefer larger bodies for better handiling. A GM5 would look like a toy in my hands
http://camerasize.com/compact/#698,624,679,691,ha,f

Frankly, I am glad they don't give even more emphasis to video. I would then have to read between the lines even more than I do already to figure what their impression of a cameras stills capability is; unless they give separate stills photography and video rankings.

This website is called 'Digital Photography Review', after all. 'Photography', not 'videography'.

You must be part of Nikon management as well...or you can't read...do you want me to type slowly so it's easier to understand? If you're saying all Nikon glass is good and just adding it, then you must also be part of management because Nikon has some absolutely horrendous glass on the low end.

THERE IS NO PRO GLASS IN THE CORRECT FOCAL LENGTHS WITH NIKON!

I.e. there is no 50-140. If you need a full frame 70-200 equivalent with APSC, there is none. None. Zero. 70-200 is a broadly used focal length for most users. Everyone keeps highlighting it to Nikon. Nikon keeps ignoring it. Nikon keeps losing business.

I'd say I agree 68%. Nikon does have good zoom glass that covers that range. Just not as a single lens. Which makes it better than useless, although a questionable value.

Even though I'm not happy with the Nikon DX lens offering either, I think it would be hard to weight it in this roundup. Agree that others like Fujifilm have impressive portfolios of lenses. But you don't get a pro f/2.8 equivalent f/1.8 zoom, for instance. Lenses for Nikon are offered by third parties as well, including also the Sigma 18-35 f/1.8 and 50-100 f/1.8. Which camera should get more points for available pro lenses now?

Dumb post of the day, congrats.

Spoken like a true Nikon fanboy? How do you put together a 14-24, 24-70, 70-200 in APSC with the D500? You can't. How do you get a 85 f/1.8? You can't, they don't have 1.2's to give the DOF of the 1.8 on full frame, let alone 1.4. The list goes on. The biggest problem with the D500 is not the camera, it's the lens selection which is dismal. I was shooting Nikon, I left because when it came to the D500, it was a great camera but an incomplete solution.

Well, personally I'm having Nikkor 10-24 f/3.5-4.5, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 and Sigma 50-150 f/2.8. This comes quite close to FF 14-24, 24-70, 70-200 -- not at FF f/2.8 equivalency of course; more corresponding to FF f/4 lenses. But there are still options; see my dump post above.

I'm using a 50mm f/1.8 for portraits, because the 50mm f/1.4 is less sharp wide open and a FF 85mm f/1.8 is typically stopped down a bit anyway. Last but not least, I'm enjoying the Sigma 30mm f/1.4 as fast normal prime. I love the "Manufactured by enthusiasts" charisma of the Sigma Art lenses. Spoken like a real Nikon fanboy?

The D500 can win because it is the best APS-C camera. Yes, you must be creative regarding lenses, considering third parties and FF lenses as well. And you must learn about equivalency. Nevertheless I'm happy Nikon made world leading D5 tech available in the smaller D500 body at a much lower price.

Can you prove your guarantee: "most of the other manufacturers APSC bodies will rip the current lenses you have to pieces from an IQ perspective", e.g. with links to reviews covering both, like dxomark or photozone?

Simple, buy the FF lenses.
Don't tell me you don't have money to buy.

Hi Shockwave. I have a different opinion. The lack of DX lenses in this case doesn't harm the D500 in anyway.

The buyers who go to DX as a lighter/cheaper option need lighter/cheaper lenses - that's been my complaint about Nikon DX for a while. With the new AF-P lenses, they started addressing that.

When it comes to pro models like D500, I would not buy it as a lighter/cheaper option. I looked at the Sigma 50-150 lens that was discontinued. It was close to the weight of a 70-200/2.8. Cost wise, Panasonic 100-400 M43 lens costs more than Sigma's FF 100-400 mm. At that point, it's neither lighter nor cheaper.

Many D500 buyers get a 70-200/2.8 for sports and/or 150-600 for birds. If there were DX lenses that provided an advantage, that would be good. If not, D500 doesn't lose much.

The lack of still usage for the GH and A7S cams are saddening. They both have world class sensors and pretty snazzy bodies to boot, yet are often used as dedicated video machines.

Ricoh just announced huge financial losses. Next to drop out?

The K3ii has not been discontinued and the K3iii is expected later this year. Apart from that, you are quite right, well done.

Hi Dante, in case you were sleeping, the K-3ii is listed as "discontinued", and even DPR has confirmed this, which is why they discussed that the KP is now the flagship APSc (de facto). Stocks only indicate NOS. And that should mean a successor is on the way? How? Even Ricoh gave a non-committal "we are researching" when asked for a k-3iii, which most everyone is unsure about (though it doesn't stop the liar fanboys from claiming the K-3iii is on its way).

However, your response is an example of the typical lies Pentax fans like to throw around, using them to claim everyone else is lying.

@DPP - Correct. It is listed as discontinued. It would be nice if people did their homework instead of lashing out calling others liars.

Odd, now I'm an anti Pentral troll? Pentax needs more trolls like me....having bought the K20D, K7, K-x, 645Z, 67ii and 645n....even two Pentax Auto 110's. But hey, I guess this means I have a miserable life. Dante, seems you have some serious mental issues.

See what I mean?

And little old me is damaging Pentax's reputation? Meanwhile, nothing I've said hasn't been covered by major players in the industry, including DPR, TCS, and so on.

I actually use Pentax for major, international news reporting. What have you done with them? My work does positive things for the Pentax brand, BUT they discontinued pro service without saying a word, then they even directly said "we have no interest in marketing to or keeping professional customers or catering to them". But I guess that damage doesn't count, eh? Or maybe you're one of the people that thinks Pentax is doing better than it is because of the mass deletions of critical posts that come from way more people than me, while those mods leave posts from a Pentax employee that is getting paid to turn it into a shill forum where he spreads positive fake news about the company. But that's perfectly fine.

No one does more damage to the Pentax brand than the people running it, period.

Hmmm...in the last thread I got 49 likes for my comment. Guess I must have 49 accounts to like my own post....or you are truly clueless. Some of us have been using Pentax gear professionally for years....unlike you webexperts with empty galleries throwing their non-existent weight around

Make sense. Mach Sinn, bro. Du bist total unverstaendlich.

But of course, continue on, it exemplifies how it is to deal with the Pentax fans and employees posing as fans on forums and calling for threads to be edited and deleted by DPR.

@KVM2 - Let's see....you've been here just over a week....and your contribtuion to the forum has been little more than stalking DPP, and gracing us with such artistic gems as ....

https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/8715698828/photos/3644699/

Delete the rest....

That is because some of the files are film scans copied off my blog to save here. That is what Google does with file names. But if it makes you feel better about yourself by accusing me of stealing, have it....I have the the raw files and film to back myself up thanks. My, what a little man.

Oh...by the way...as to the files you questioned in particular....the exif from my camera is clearly evident in the gallery. Seems you fell flat on your face with that accusation.

If they did moderate it, you'd probably be banned for accusing other members of stealing photographs. Yes...hopefully your work here is done.

KVM,

You'd also likely be banned for lying- the same lying you criticize others and demand bannings for. For instance, you claim (repeatedly) that I don't own Pentax lenses, which is untrue. This is not an unfamiliar tactic; for instance, my ONLY gallery picture is because the Pentax forum claimed I was lying about owning Pentax at all, so I posted a pic with the name of the last accuser on top of two of my FOUR bodies. I believe at least one Pentax lens is even in that picture.

These are the tactics of the Pentax forum, unfortunately and the types of consumers the company caters to, unfortunately. Too bad they don't put all this effort into righting the ship because they have at least one full-time salary devoted to someone who scours the internet and is seen in ALL Pentax forums and comments on ALL sites and blogs when Pentax is of discussion. Dispelling "propaganda", of course.

I have two OMDs, so I will not buy another Crop-sensor cam, If I do, I will buy SONY a6500 for:
- Best AF system
- weather sealing
- IBIS

Also, a6500 is a very fast and very high performance system compare to others.

The EM1 II is "pricey" but the Leica TL isn't? Every camera in this roundup is in the same price range. And they vary in their features and performance.

OK... if it "costs to much for what it is" then someone must explain why the $1,800 Leica doesn't get called "too pricey" when it is out performed by a $500 Olympus EPL8.

If you feel that the A6500 IBIS is a spec sheet feature only, you obviously have never used it. Comparing weather-sealing is also a useless debate.

Also, the idea that the GH5 is good only for video is also silly. It's one of the better photo machines in the entirety of the Panasonic lineup.

Comparing weather sealing is a useless debate only if you want to ignore that some manufacturers put a real effort into designing a weather resistant system, while others don't. Olympus and Panasonic advertise their bodies as dust-, splash- and freeze-proof, Sony explicitly warns that the camera is NOT splashproof. While the M43 manufacturers produce a nice range of weather resistant lenses, not even one APS-C lens from Sony is weather sealed, not even to their weak standard. And a quick look at the bodies and lenses is enough to see that the difference is very real.

Sergey -- Perhaps someone is willing to spend $2,000 on m4/3's rather than a 'little more' on FF because of System size, weight, and cost -- rather than just the body. Micro Four Thirds offers a great selection of quality lenses that are small and reasonably priced relative to comparable equivalent FF lenses.
At least that's my reason.

Have you seen the title?

The anti-Sony conspiracy of course.

Or it's a round-up for cropped sensor cameras.

Then you did not need D500 in the first place

Might be he is wrong again.

you will have to say what you want them for...what you intend to shoot ...they are 2 completely different cameras ....

"Just give us controls like:
-ISO button, WB button, backbutton focussing (it is there btw but how to activate it...without a book I an't do it).
- switch for C-AF, MF and S-AF so you can directly do it."

I have an E-M1 Mk 1 and easily programmed all these features directly to function buttons. On your last point though, I concede it is a bit too tedious switching between single and burst modes. I did have the lever switch set up to do that but it came with other control compromises. However, you could do this more easily on the Mk II due to the C1-C3 positions on the mode dial.

The text is written based on list price because we can't constantly re-check the current price across multiple markets, nor do we know whether lowered prices are temporary offers or long-term re-positioning.

Ultimately, we thought it would be fairly clear that if we say 'price is the only reason camera X didn't win,' then a reduction in the price difference makes the decision harder.

So $200 less would have you buy a less capable camera? Witha a much smaller lens and accessory ecosystem. Strange.

Strange that people sometimes favor smaller things, right?

The just use your phone. It's even smaller.