Apple is on camera-engineer hiring spree

"I can only imagine the next chapter in camera sensor development where a DSLR sensor is fitted into the next smartphone. "

Impossible, not even with advances like the ISOCELL tech. Ever heard the light having to reach the sensor at almost 90 degrees? That's why it's not possible to put super-large sensors in thin devices.

Mar 17, 2014permalink

Houseqatz

isn't that one of the arguments for a curved sensor?

Mar 19, 2014permalink

Zeisschen

Come on Apple, build some amazing e-mount cameras!

Mar 16, 2014permalink

They won't - it's highly unlikely they'd introduce a lens mount system for the iPhone. Not even Nokia do this, who do put an enormous emphasis on camera, even at the expense of the thickness of their top cameraphone models...

Mar 16, 2014permalink

Zebooka

he said, not E-mount iPhones, but E-mount cameras!

Mar 21, 2014permalink

clicstudio

Apple had one of the first digital cameras in the market in 1994 with the 0.3MP QuickTake 100...
They should have the initiative again... Hopefully

Mar 15, 2014permalink

TrojMacReady

They were at least 5 years late to the commercial market.

Mar 15, 2014permalink

"They were at least 5 years late to the commercial market."

1. You mean the QuickTake 100 not being the first to the consumer market: technically, yes, the Dycam Model 1 was released 3 years earlier. However, it was significantly worse than the QT 100: 320x240 b&w-only as opposed to the 640x480 24-bit color of the QT100. That is, the Dycam Model 1 was hardly usable and the QT100 was inded the first camera that could really be used by Average Joes instead of a film cam. Of course, it was better than, say, C64 image digitizers of that time with their 4 shades of gray and about 80x50 (or even worse) resolution...

2. If you meant their current lagging behind Nokia, you're, more or less, right - before the iPhone 4, there was absolutely no contest between Nokia's and Apple's offerings (Nokia's being much-much better in every respect). Nevertheless, Apple are quickly catching up and, in some areas like WB accuracy and pano mode, are even better than Nokia.

Mar 16, 2014*permalink

TrojMacReady

I meant the first commercially/consumer available digital camera (that actually recorded as a digital image). That was the Fuji DS-X in 1989 (follow up of the 1988 DS -1P which was never actually marketed). 400k 2/3" CCD.

Mar 17, 2014*permalink

PrakticaB

I love Iphone for the very good WB. The low light pics were OK in iphone 4 (5 mp), but unfortunately that has changed in 4s or 5 (8 mp).

Mar 15, 2014permalink

vFunct

Looks like Apple is going to be a Camera company. This means Apple is going to focus more on the camera side instead of the phone side.

The result will be a product that's probably a mirrorless or point-and-shoot with wi-fi upload, like an iPod touch, with a big sensor & lenses, perhaps DX sized. I doubt they need a full-framze size, since they have no need to support legacy standards. (If they're going big with full-frame, they might as well go with medium format...)

It'll be called iCam or something like that.

Apple usually makes separate consumer & professional products, so there might be a Full-frame version later on.

It will be very "Apple". Think of the most friendly & intuitive camera, and that's what it will be: thin, lightweight, portable, instantly usable, but producing very high quality photos/videos.

It'll probably include Aperture & raw shooting.

Also it'll probably have weird Apple idiosyncrasies as well, like non removable battery & weird connections. lol.

Mar 15, 2014permalink

zodiacfml

Camera makers should be very afraid.

Mar 15, 2014permalink

They don't need to. Apple is only better in very few areas than the cameras of traditional companies; for example, pano.

There's a reason I use my iPhone5 to shoot quick panos: it's significantly better than the pano mode of most, if not all, current P&S cameras, even Pana / Sony's latest-and-greatest models.

Mar 16, 2014permalink

TrojMacReady

The 5S Pano mode is pretty close to the Note 3 Pano mode. It handles dynamic exposure changes (within the same pano) and stitching a hair better, but the Note 3 offers 27% more vertical resolution and a significantly wider view (360 vs just over 180 degrees max).

Mar 17, 2014permalink

JadedGamer

Yeah, if I want to shoot panos with the iPhone I still prefer to use the third-party apps like AutoStitch or Microsoft Photosynth. Then again I have a 4S which is not as fast as the 5/5S/5C, and where the camera app frequently crashes.

Mar 17, 2014permalink

"Yeah, if I want to shoot panos with the iPhone I still prefer to use the third-party apps like AutoStitch or Microsoft Photosynth."

Of the two, I'd go with the former (and in the non-default "high" mode, even when stitched only afterwards). I've very thoroughly tested the two and found the results produced by Photosynth inferior to AutoStitch's advanced / HQ mode.

Mar 17, 2014permalink

peevee1

"Until now Apple's camera modules are sourced from external suppliers, such as Sony, but one implication of the recent hiring spree is that this might be about to change. "

"about" meaning "maybe in 5 years if their development succeeds". If it is about development at all and not about formulating requirements, validation etc.

Mar 14, 2014*permalink

Jaythomasni

See where is Apple searching..in the back doors of Tokyo and Taiwan..This is called poaching for Japanese talents...Many Western companies are doing it lately ..Computer panels. .Microsoft surface makers are all Japanese or Asian engineers.
They will get some one with money...With all fanfare of apple phone phone and camera..all internals are sony or some Taiwanese company..made in China...market as their product.

This poaching business is really spoiling the traditional legendary camera makers and their business..
Fact is Japanese craftsmanship and engineering is superior none can build one by poaching.
why poach let the Japanese companies survive with their skills.. they survive not by hi fi English speaking business men..but by pure talent..
please don't buy the whole electronic industry..leave them alone..... do what you are good at...software...leave the hardware to the people who are good at it and don't spoil their heritage ,

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Why don't we let the individual engineers decide if they'd like to stay put or take what is probably a sizable raise to work for Apple?

Do you want someone telling you where to work and what job offers you are allowed to receive?

Mar 14, 2014permalink

G1Houston

Agree with tkbslc, considering the fact that global shipment of cameras is down, and, with the exception of Canon and Nikon, many are losing money.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Serenity Now

Whatcha smokin' there Jay?!

Mar 15, 2014permalink

KingOfAtlantis

haters gonna hate. Good on Apple! They have always put their smart phone camera ahead of competition, and now pushing further. Leading as always :)

Mar 14, 2014permalink

As has been pointed in an earlier reply to your earlier comment, you're, to put it mildly, overly optimistic when stating "They have always put their smart phone camera ahead of competition, and now pushing further." and the like.

While the iPhones have decent cameras, they in no way are far better than competing cameras. In some areas (pano and, particularly with the 5s, shoot-to-shoot speed), they excel; in some other, also-essential areas (video recording, OIS, manual modes etc.) they're far behind.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Manual shutter, ISO and RAW+jpg. Should take all of one person whos currently employed to implement. Will make waves in the news and actually be useful.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

RAW from a 1/3" sensor is not going to be that useful, but I agree on manual shutter speed and ISO

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Its not like the feature is going to put a gun to peoples heads forcing them to use it. Nor will it be a strain on development. There's really no argument against it.

See the Lumia.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

"Its not like the feature is going to put a gun to peoples heads forcing them to use it. Nor will it be a strain on development. There's really no argument against it."

Knowing Apple's "KISS" approach, no one asks for manual features in the stock Camera app, "only" via the API. The Camera API is still VERY poor in iOS - much-much worse than in some of the competing and now-dead platforms (e.g., Symbian or WP8 with Nokia's additional Imaging API).

Mar 14, 2014*permalink

If apple adds hidden(kiss) manual controls for ISO, SS, wb. 3 things! I don't know why I would want to use a clunky 3rd party app that's probably paid and slower than what apple can do. Look at flashlight apps, they're useless now with ios7.

Mar 15, 2014permalink

"If apple adds hidden(kiss) manual controls for ISO, SS, wb. 3 things! "

Again: they won't ever make their stock apps "complicated-to-use" for their _main_ target customer group, the tech illiterate. Even if they add manual controls to the API (allowing for third-party usage) some time, they are highly unlikely to offer the same manual controls in the stock Camera app. Unlike everybody else in the smartphone world.

I agree in your assesment WRT third-party apps. I try not to use them either. Fortunately, being jailbroken allows access to all the API goodies otehrwise not available in the stock Camera app via the great "CameraTweak" app, of which version 2 has recently been released: http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1708305

Mar 16, 2014permalink

I don't see how 3 extra controls that aren't available until after a trip to camera settings would constitute "complicated-to-use". Plus apple folk like to think they're creative so knowing how a camera works is not a 'bad thing' culturally for apple.

Mar 17, 2014permalink

justmeMN

People flock to buy anything that has an Apple logo on it, so this is bad news for camera companies.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Apple products are good produtcs, and that helps.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

I used to say that apple users are sheep, too. But then my wife got an iPhone (only because it was blue) and I found it to be really a fantastic device.

You don't get the to be the #1 brand on name alone. You might get people in the door, but they aren't going to be repeat customers if your product sucks.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

G1Houston

In case you haven't noticed, the market for low end "traditional" P&S cameras has already collapsed. I think fundamentally a smartphone is still a phone. Adding too many features making it too complex to use and drain too much processing and battery power are counterproductive. There are many outstanding pocketable large sensor cameras which will always be better choices for taking better pictures.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

How does a camera drain battery from the phone when not in use? Clicking a camera icon is complex?

And you are already carrying a phone. A camera is an extra device in your pocket.

Mar 14, 2014*permalink

G1Houston

I think the key feature in a phone that really needs to be improved is battery life. To USE a larger sensor, to increase frame rate, anti-sake, 4k video etc, may require a more energy-hungry processor, which all things being equal needs more juice to run. I want my phone to be a good phone first. I want it to be small and fit easily into my pocket, super battery life, fast and reliable wifi confection, … etc. The phone feature is way down my list. Not very one thinks of a phone as a camera first.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

"How does a camera drain battery from the phone when not in use? Clicking a camera icon is complex? "

He must have meant CPU-intensive tasks like pano stitching. Nevertheless, I don't think it's an issue, not even if you continuously shoot panos. The battery will NOT be drained faster than when, say, playing a CPU-intensive game like my favorite one, XCOM: Enemy Unknown. Actually, I shoot a lot of panos on my iPhone 5. I've never encountered noticeable battery drain after shooting, say, 30-40 panos in an hour.

The only really battery-draining operation in the iPhone is full sensor oversampling at full speed (12-15 fps on the iPhone4, 18-20 fps on the 4S / 5 / 5c and 30 fps on the iPhone5, all assuming good lighting). That indeed drains the battery fast. But it's not available in the stock Camera client, only via either my oversampler tweaks (JB only) or action shooters like "Superburst Camera" recording into full-res M-JPEG MP4's.

Mar 14, 2014*permalink

tbcass

It will be many years before these new engineers will come up with anything worthwhile. Since the camera manufacturers are way ahead I doubt this will get Apple anywhere. I see the days of Apples dominance failing fast which is fine with me.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

You sound bitter. Why is that?

If you remember, when the iPad was in development and up to its introduction, the non-believers were laughing at it...who would need that? it's like a big phone without the phone! blah blah blah. But look at things now? All of the copy cats have tablets out too. And while in a business cycle, companies will rise and fall, Apple will be around long enough to see this camera phone to market.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Graham Hill

You do realize that there were many phone makers with many years head start on Apple right? Yet Apple blew past them like a Ferrari.

Your logic is senseless and completely lacking.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

"You do realize that there were many phone makers with many years head start on Apple right? Yet Apple blew past them like a Ferrari. "

You can't seriously meant that... while the iPhones have decent cameras (particularly the 5s), I really don't think they deliver better IQ than comparable P&S cameras. Actually, as it lacks a number of essential features (WA, OIS, stereo audio, absolutely no manual modes etc.), it's significantly worse, particularly in non-optimal lighting conditions or when one would like to shoot sports. The latter can in no way be shot on the full-automatic and iA/scene-mode-less iPhone, unless you do it in so bright a light that the phone needs to choose 1/250+s shutter speed.

Actually, the iPhone is only better in some features like pano stitching. It's so damn good that I exclusively use my iPhone 5 for pano shooting. Nevertheless, Samsung also has excellent pano in their new flagships (N3, S4, S5) so Apple isn't the only manufacturer to have decent pano.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Tom May

The iPhone isn't a niche camera, so it isn't going to have niche features, and there won't be a tradeoff of a "bump" for a camera. They'll get OIS when they or Sony can design it to the thickness of the iPhone.

But take the lesson that Apple taught the industry with its own 64 bit ARM design, and even their 5s lens design; Apple wants to control its destiny, and will buy companies and necessary talent to do so.

Mar 16, 2014permalink

"and even their 5s lens design"

The optics on the 5s isn't that much better than those of other top cameraphones, if at all. It's indeed brighter and wider than that of the 5 and uses a somewhat larger sensor but still a far cry away from, say, Nokia's solutions. Or, for that matter, from that of many Android manufacturers. Let me point out that the 5s has still the narrowest lens of the top cameraphones with its 30mm equiv lens (which is significantly narrower in HD / Full HD video mode because of the electronic-only IS). Now, compare it to the 26-27mm equiv of the Nokia 808 / 1020 - those FoV's are FAR more useful in a "social" camera. And the 1020 also has OIS...

Mar 16, 2014permalink

Jim Salvas

They have enough cash on hand to simply buy the camera industry. All of it.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Pretty much. $160 billion last I checked.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

wb2trf

Apple's rewarded history is to think big. In this case the entire camera industry is geriatric and ready to be knocked over. Phone cams are taking the low end and mirrorless (all-electronic cameras after eshutters reach the high end) will knock out dslrs. Further, China manufacturing with Apple design can knock out Japanese, as it has in so many other areas. So, they could be looking to make a dedicated imaging peripheral, ie. a camera. Make it software e-compatible with all lenses, using merely mechanical couplers, if necessary. Lastly, the big untapped factor in camera design now is 3rd party software apps inside the camera. A few camera companies have timidly hinted in that direction, but the old guard camera makers are clueless about this. That is the big apple ready to be grabbed. So, I say , think big Apple, the camera industry is yours for the asking.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

javidog

or taking! ;)

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Mario G

"Make it software e-compatible with all lenses, using merely mechanical couplers, if necessary."

Also by changing the laws of optics via software?

Mar 15, 2014permalink

wb2trf

Mario G, I'm not sure if you seriously couldn't understand what I was saying, which I grant could have been clearer, but I thought was clear enough. What was intended was that it be fully compatible with all lenses. This requires a mechanical coupling, but not an optically active coupling if the flange to sensor distance is very short. It also requires software that provides compatibility, and of course, electrical contact compatibility.

Mar 18, 2014permalink

thomas2279f

They should do a joint venture like joining up with Nikon = sell for both company...

Mar 14, 2014permalink

What technology would Nikon have that could benefit the markets Apple is interested in?

Mar 14, 2014permalink

tkbslc, Nikon has great optics, and they know how to produce great image quality out of a sensor.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

javidog

Nikon and Canon are so narrow minded and outdated. Pentax and Olympus--even Fuji have better ideas. A joint venture with one of these would be killer.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

They have different ideas. But if they were truly better, wouldn't they be selling well?

Mar 14, 2014permalink

"Nikon and Canon are so narrow minded and outdated. "

Still, assuming it'll have as good IQ as its predecessor, the Canon G1X Mk II will be a real killer not matched by anything else on the market in the same size category.

And if the Nikon P8000 rumors are true (superfast 1" sensor, 24-1xx f/1.8...f/2.x lens etc.) and it also delivers excellent IQ, it'll be the choice of many enthusiasts.

All in all, it really can't be stated Canon / Nikon don't innovate. Actually, much-much more than, say, Fuji, in this large-sensor compact area. I will definitely purchase one of these two cameras, depending on how they compare to each other. There is just nothing comparable to them. (Again, if their IQ is excellent, that is. Given that the G1X Mk I had excellent IQ, I have high hopes.)

Mar 14, 2014permalink

graybalanced

Apple may not want to work with Nikon after evaluating the Nikon 1 V3's potential for extending Nikon's presence in that market.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Jogger

Can they change the law of physics can make a 1/3.2 sensor capture as much light as an FF? If not, gtfo.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

rpm40

Can anyone, now or in the foreseeable future? Can you? :p

But seriously, what are you getting at? Are you suggesting that since camera phones aren't as good as "FF", they aren't worth making? Makes total sense. Photography is only worthwhile if you can do it with 36 megapixels at ISO 25600.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Jogger

How about something more reasonable, like a 2/3 sensor.. still no?

Mar 14, 2014permalink

DotCom Editor

What? A camera without film? A flat television? Can't be done!

Mar 14, 2014permalink

sportyaccordy

Maybe not FF. But an array of small sensors can approximate a large one.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Why would it need to be full frame?

If full frame was the end-of-all-things photography, we would not have APSC or M43, or the sony RX100, all of which are fantastic.

In fact, if the iPhone ever had the capabilities of say an Olympus M43 in terms of IQ and handling, it would be an icredible achievement. It would turn the camera industry upside down.

Mar 14, 2014*permalink

Jogger

Dont you get the sensor paradigm.. anything that can be done on a smaller sensor can be done on a larger sensor.. the larger sensor will ALWAYS be better.. hence, them needing to destroy the laws of physics

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Revenant

Yes, a larger sensor always have an advantage over a smaller one, but when the smaller sensor becomes good enough for the majority of people, other things become more important than improving image quality further. Like convenience, for instance.
Arguably, APS-C, or even m43, is already good enough for most people, who have no specialized photographic needs, and in the near future 1" or even smaller sensors might be good enough.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

javidog

Better is subjective, and irrelevant. Do you actually think that 'better' matters to Instagram or Getty? Critical mass, social, sharing: money!! That is what matter. No one cares about F-ing Full Frame!

Mar 14, 2014permalink

You can't put a larger sensor in your pocket. The camera on the iphone literally takes zero space. The phone would be the same size without the camera. That's why it's the #1 camera in the world.

So no, you can't do anything on FF that you can do with a smaller sensor.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

deep7

So called "full frame" is totally arbitrary in a digital world. If that size is better because it's bigger, even bigger must surely be better still? But it's not. For most people, smaller is better - more depth of field (better for most), lighter camera, lighter lens.

Manufacturers are still testing the compromises in cellphone cameras but the greater public are already happy. In fact, my now "old" iPhone 4S has an excellent and very useful camera.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

digitallollygag

Nikon 1 engineers & designers need not apply...

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Actually I'd argue the opposite given the amount of picture quality per sensor size that the Nikon 1 provides. Plus the strange Nikon 1 price premium is right up Apple's alley!

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Joe Ogiba

I would be interested in the 5.7" iPhone with 4K video like the Samsung Note 3 but with OIS like the 5.9" LG G Pro 2. http://connect.dpreview.com/post/3185592421/lg-launches-lg-g-pro-phablet-with-4k-video

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Exactly. As I prefer JB'n iOS to Android, I'd love such an iPhone.

Of course I know we'll hardly receive either 4K or OIS.

- 4K won't be implemented by Apple for at least another year (they're known not to implement new stuff as quickly as other top smartphone manufacturers)

- OIS would likely add bulk to the iPhone, which would surely make Apple to completely abandon the idea of adding. After all, for them, "form over functionality" is by far the most important.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

I'd argue form and functionality is their goal. Sure they don't currently win the extreme spec wars, but it all blends together nicely and works extremely well.

Honestly, I don't think the average person really wants a 6" phone. You can't even sit down with those in your pocket. But narrow 4" is pretty small these days. I think that 5" is a sweet spot for pocket friendly vs screen real estate. I'd expect something like 4.8" for the next Apple.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

"I'd argue form and functionality is their goal. Sure they don't currently win the extreme spec wars, but it all blends together nicely and works extremely well."

1. I'm not speaking about pure specs like CPU or GPU frequency but, for power users, much more important features like 4K video recording, WA lens even during video recording, OIS, stereo audio and the like.

2, adding a decent OIS and/or a significantly larger sensor may / will result in having to have a much larger (and thicker) camera module. This is what I've referred to: Apple is highly unlikely to (radically) increase the sensor size and/or add OIS because it'd result in either a camera bump or generic phone thickness increase. In this regard, they do prefer form over functionality - unlike, say, Nokia (see their "bumpy" 808 and 1020). This is what I've meant.

Mar 14, 2014*permalink

Daniel Bliss

Perhaps Apple could buy out Nikon and finally teach them something about customer service and systems integration and marketing. If course, if you're going to get buy-in from the staff of the takeover target, it helps to demonstrate technical prowess in their area of expertise.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Guy at the Nikon Genius bar: "Oh, you need a Nikon Certified CF card to shoot in burst mode. We have these over here starting at $10 per gigabyte. "

No thanks.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

AbrasiveReducer

I picture Jony Ives holding the newest Nikon, with that strained expression, almost crying as he explains how every molecule has been refined.

Mar 18, 2014permalink

colinstu

I love how that picture shows an iphone sitting atop an IBM Model M Keyboard! *types on one right now and loves it*

Mar 14, 2014permalink

ThePhilips

So I gather next release cycle it's Apple copying Samsung.

Mar 14, 2014*permalink

Lars Rehm

Apple tend to hire clever people, they can come up with their own stuff.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

I wish they did.

While the IQ, the shoot-to-shoot speed and the panorama mode of the iPhone 5/5c and particularly the 5s is class-leading, the camera painfully lacks a lot of essential features supported by either even the stock Android (manual modes like ISO settings, proper exposure compensation etc) and, particularly, Samsung's software/ hardware implementation (software-wise, the, compared to stock Android, vastly enhanced panorama mode etc.; HW-wise, 4K video, stereo audio etc.)

I really wish Apple did implement now-popular features like 4K video in as soon as the iPhone 6.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

"Apple tend to hire clever people, they can come up with their own stuff."

They do indeed have the potential as they have tons of engineers and money. Too bad even essential features (manual settings, incl. proper exposure compensation, available in every other smartphone OS (Android, WP, Symbian, Bada etc.)) are missing from iOS. And the, particularly in video mode, narrow FoV is a real pain in the back.

Of course their panorama mode is indeed excellent, even as of the 4S/5/5c, and the shoot-to-shoot speed of the 5s is class-leading. But that's not much if one takes into account the features offered by alternative OS'es / devices (4K, OIS, stereo or even 4-mike-based-"zoomable" audio etc.)

But those missing features...

Mar 14, 2014permalink

Lars Rehm

agree with you, but the missing features are hardly due to a lack of brainpower. At least some of them, lack of manual exposure for example, are a design decision. They want their camera to be as simple as possible....which doesn't make it more attractive to enthusiast photographers.

Mar 14, 2014permalink

DaveE1

@ThePhilips, you didn't really read the story, did you!

Mar 14, 2014permalink