What's missing? Ming Thein on the state of mirrorless

Just to give more background to the below. I was making the point that he negative attitude to all the cameras was painting a picture that people should just not bother. I think that while the current range of cameras available in the mirrorless world (and even DSLR) may not be perfect, there is an awful lot of choice. The bottom line is perfect does not really exist take anyone of these cameras back 10 years to 2005 and give it to a photographer of that time and he would be blown away and think it the perfect camera. Progress is iterative by nature and you can't just expect people to come up with perfect, because the definition of perfect is dynamic and ephmeral.

For that I go the comment quoted below. How the above position translates to a sense of entitlment I don't know, given I was stating that people should make the best of what they have and focus on shooting and not waiting for the perfect camera. Sorry just thought I would post here as he is sensoring his blog

I am afraid I have lost a lot of respect for Ming over this blog. I posted a few comments directly over on the blog. He responded with the following comment

YOU are the one with the sense of entitlement. YOU expect the internet to provide content for free, agree with your views, make you feel good – for free – then when you don’t get what you want, YOU become rude, sarcastic and abusive to somebody you’ve never met. I wonder if you’re as pleasant and charming in real life, or just when you’re hiding behind a keyboard."

Needless to say the above was a gross exaggeration of what has traspired, please have a look my username over there is Funkmonkey, legacy thin.

I responded to the above post saying that I am not hiding behind a keyboard just that I found his whole one almost troll like and I was left feeling almost as if he were trolling his own blog to increase traffic. Interestingly he has not allowed that comment to be posted. So he sensors his blog to make himself look good.

DSLR will die..
it will be a niche camera for a few studio shooters and for an old people..

Well, the MT post and related comments are quite interesting, except... Oly EM-1 has all the heavily desired 'missing' features

It is an interesting list - a viewfinder is top of my list!

Probably one of the problems with mirrorless is economics.

"Pros" buy DSLRs and will pay for quality and "photographic" functionality.
Those moving up from P&S are not prepared to pay - but want bells and whistles (and things like "scenes" and "filters")! (And I know, viewfinders are expensive!)

The result is that many if not the majority of mirrorless cameras are built according to the demands of the marketing department to meet "price points". This determines whether major functions (like viewfinders, articulated LEDs, stabilisation) get included or not. Then you stuff the camera with cheap gizmos (often software based) to make it look better in comparison charts.

Not a great way to design a camera!

And on my first camera I could: select the ISO of the film, choose shutter speed and aperture, choose 50mm or 90mm lens, and focus/compose. That seemed more than enough!

For the type of photography I do, changing out a battery is generally not an issue for me, certainly not the comparative hassle changing 36-shot film used to be. And if I need a more extended battery experience, l add the vertical grip to my A7RII (doubles battery, plus improves handling for some situations). Or I use a second body. That said, for others l understand that battery capabilities for mirrorless cameras can be an obstacle/disruptive. If Sony and others improved the battery tech, all types of users would benefit.

Thank goodness manufacturers aren't going the route of mobile phones and sealing in THE battery.

Personally I MT's opinion to be well articulated - and I agree with a fair portion of what he expresses. However, what I do find very unfortunate is that such material is used in service of a myth (apparently held by many here) that there exists a singlar core of needs for the 'professional' photographer. Professional photography encompasses a wide range of methods - and gear only need meet the requirements specific to each method. In the past (at least the one I remember), it was common to have a modest collection of cameras to function in different contexts - each doing 'its' thing a bit different than its neighbor. And this appreciation for the relative delights of different cameras, formats, etc., was a healthy part of one's general development within the medium. What happened to this? Perhaps I'm being a bit pollyannaish in reference to the past, but something in the contemporary tech-obsessed mindset promotes a mutual exclusivity which need not exist - so much desparate territorialism. Now, admittedly as a specific type of art photographer (formerly a professor of photography), I don't need 1000+ shots per battery - I do get that others do. What I do need (or prefer) is the really satisfying tactile interaction found, say, in the upper portion of the Fuji X line (a more modestly priced translation of the Leica ethos, if you will). And when I need other things, I have other cameras. It seems a real bummer to me that so many in photography are subject to a constant din of 'shortcomings', particularly with respect to mirrorless, rather than experiencing the rather amazing creative and technical latitude they afford.

I see that my digital photography colleagues are still continuing to place importance on gear over photographs, despite more or less any camera costing upwards of a couple of hundred dollars/pounds/euros being capable of generating images that far outweigh the quality (technically speaking) of images from almost any 35mm camera ever made.

I'd wager if you're unable to create a high quality image from almost any of these mirrorless cameras, the problem is probably not with the technology.

The annoying flip out screen can be added to the list. Why would you want a feature that will help you 2% of the time (over a tilt screen), but annoys you every time you take a photo. It also makes it harder to compose because you have to turn your head away from the subject you are photographing. My flip out screen ended up not being used for tilting, and stored with the screen outside. In that configuration it functions as a fixed screen, so as a design it is a big failure to me.

So many spot-on observations from Ming Thein. So much butthurt from crazed fanboys.

Ming Thein wants a mirrorless DSLR. Does he mention the Samsung NX1 anywhere? (I read his article a bit fast). I feel the NX1 comes closer to what he wishes for, but then the NX1 is almost like a DSLR in size and form.

Nothing personal against the author, but in my experience glass-half-empty people will never be happy. No matter what you give them, they'll find something to complain about.

I think most current ILC's are fine, my only gripe is battery capacity, i would be happy if they had a bigger grip to acommodate a bigger battery (big hands too) as for the rest for what I do ( people who are still) most mirrorless are more than enough :)

And yes I know I can carry more batteries yadah-yadah but it would be nice to have 600-700 shots per battery instead of 300-350

Ming Thein is the kind of user who's willing to make the trade off for an increase in size for more professional grade DSLR like functionality. I am not willing to make such a trade off. The A7 is perfect for me in size as it's about the same size as an mechanical film SLR. Battery life is not a problem as third party batteries are cheap and of great quality. He complained the EVF had too much clutter, but the display can be changed with 1 button. I will concede that manual focus implementation can be more innovative (picture in picture peaking, electronic split screen focus aid, etc), and Sony could make me happier if they added more aspect ratios. It will be some time before I upgrade from the A7.

"If only Nikon or Canon would release a mirrorless” some say. If the lens mounts is to be kept, how would such a camera differ from Sonys SLT models?
There you have a series of camera almost exactly as a DSLR but with an EVF. And they are a little bit smaller as well. So play with one if you think that is the concept that will bring huge changes.
It hasn't made much impact on the DSLR market yet anyway.

As someone noted, it is true that Samsung NX-1 is made very uncompromisingly — finally! (And now rumours that Samsung is getting out of camera business).
But do take a look at NX-1: APS-C mount, and that camera is big by mirrorless standards, rivals DSLRs. And there is no way to avoid it, if things are done properly: mirrorless camera will be of same size or be bigger than a DSLR, because mirrorless has some issues to solve DSLR does not have: two of them are heat dissipation and constant current consumption to feed the viewfinder and lens motors.

Can someone unbiased and motivated, explore, and write an article about this: what will be the TRUE size of a mirrorless camera (system) if designed PROPERLY, no cheating, no cutting corners on issues of (A) heat dissipation, (B) great battery life, (C) decent grip, (D) premium materials used (aluminium, magnesium etc.), and (E) 100% image tele-centricity.

Finally, DPREVIEW.COM had the courage of expressing the opinion of an expert criticizing the current mirrorless cameras. It was told what everyone already knew and bothered in the mirrorless. The mirrorless are still far from meeting the minimum requirements needed to photographers. Sony who is investing millions of dollars cannot make a photographic camera for photographers, but a weird electronic device filled with unnecessary features and with heavy, expensive and poor quality lenses. All media try to convince us that Sony has the mirrorless solution. We still have to wait for Canon and Nikon. Only these companies will bring a better mirrorless solution for photographers. Let’s wait for them!

One thing Ming and many others don't understand or know, is that the solutions he talks about aren't in one product because that is not the way Japanese marketers work. The Japanese never sell you a product that has everything you want, never! That's their philosophy. It's true that they probably have all the features necessary to make one camera great but those features are put into three or four models to milk the consumers. Even when a certain technology is already available they won't put it all in, they introduce it incrementally to empty your wallets! Just look at the PC market, how many years did it take to get the processor speeds to over 2Ghz, they had the technology long ago ...

I disagree that the size of the camera and battery life are so intimately linked and that battery life is somehow sacrificed for body size or even that there needs to be some kind of tech revolution in batteries... there already has been.

What mirrorless manufacturers need to do is to innovate (or just borrow ideas from smartphones). Mirrorless battery designs and battery form-factors are very much from a by-gone age and they look like camera batteries going back years - just lazyness and an area where none of their innovation $ have been spent. They're all portly rectangular boxes.

Meanwhile phone manufacturers are making faster-charging (Galaxy S6 - 30% charge in <15 mins), flexible, thin, relatively low volume batteries that can we integrated cleverly into their phones and squeezing 5,000 mAh (Asus Zen Phone) in.

Lets see some new batteries that are cleverly integrated into the body, that can be stand alone fast charged with USB and hold 5,000 mAh each. Lets see innovation!

Here's what needs to happen. People like Thein and those at DPReview need to adjust conceptual weightings to align with the real world's values. Similar lists could have been made at the transition from Speed Graphics to SLRs, for example, and these lists are equally relevant, which is to say, not very. Most people prefer, for example, small size over longer battery life. Furthermore, higher power consumption will translate to image processing advantages that can only be delivered when AF and sensor are the same chip and illuminated pre-snap. So, power consumption is not going down and mirrors are in the way. Those of you who don't like this can go on buying dslr's for the next 20 years but in diminishing quantities and at the sacrifice of the most advanced features. However, your values will be those of the last generation. You'll be carrying the Speed Graphics. We are moving to a world of cell phones and mirrorless cameras. You guys either adapt or become irrelevant.

Sony, Please do the following to improve my 7R2:
1. Add an instant on/sleep mode that uses no more battery power than an iPhone with the screen off.
2. Do a total ergonomics redesign including touch screen for focus and photo review. If that means increasing the size of the body, do it.
3. Release a new grip that is one solid battery from top to bottom, no wasted space, again think iPhone.
4. Weather seal the body and lenses.
5. Release F2.8 FE zooms.
6. Do a total software user interface redesign.
7. Continue to improve your focus system. Double the team and the salary of those working on focus. While it's simply superb now, Eye AF is mind blowing. Raise all of it to mind blowing.
8. Call it the 7RIII; I'll take one! Next spring/summer would suite me fine.
9. Do it all this year!

I used to have a Canon 300D for a long time. I barely can show a photo by me from that period. For me it was simply too big for taking it with me most of the times. Then four or five years ago I bought a Panasonic GF2, a humble mirrorless by today's standards. Then I _started taking pictures_ actually. Photography is a hobby for me, but mirrorless was the bridge to it. It gives me constant happiness. And as a hobbist, battery life was never an issue. You may check a small gallery here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/55879631
Most of these pics would have not been taken with the Canon 300D, not because it's incapability, but I would not have taken it with me.

Ming Thein is even too soft in his opinion, I would say.

I own Fuji camera and beside all the quirks she is known for,when temperature drops down to 5°C above zero,operation slows down to unusable! I payed 1000 euros for that.

My other camera,Canon dslr is a tool. Everything works as it should. She took pictures in deserts of Africa as well as on snow mountains while on ski vacation.
I'm amateur photographer,but I don't like a feeling of being fooled like I'm right now.

What's missing is some knowledge and awareness on the author's part of Fuji cameras.
How can anyone write a full piece on today's mirrorless cameras with just a passing mention of Fuji? It's a glaring omission, in my view.

Ironically, DPR chose to illustrate this article with a photo of a Fuji camera.

Who is Ming Thein?

DPreview has alienated many readers, including me, by an enthusiastic and little-qualified endorsement of a very one-sided blog entry without any apparent recognition of the issues that have persisted for a long time with DSLR cameras. It insults them because many of dpreview's very knowledgeable readers have decided that the insoluble problems of 50 years of DSLRs are outweighed by the huge advantages of mirrorless, notwithstanding their residual flaws. Unfortunately, some good points in the blog entry have their credibility overwhelmed by a polemical tone suggesting that design choices in mirrorless are "wrong" because the author simply has different priorities than many consumers. Yes, the Sony A7 series, for example, does not have the battery life of DSLRs; as a user, I too wish it had better. But this is a tradeoff. As a non-professional, I prefer inserting little batteries more frequently to leaving my camera or a lens at home because it does not fit in a carryon.

Ming Thein makes some good points, but his article seems to hold the underlying assumption that DSLRs set the benchmark for camera systems as if it would be impossible to write a similar list about DSLRs. They aren't perfect either.

One chooses one's set of features AND limitations. I chose to change from a APSC DSLR to an APSC mirror-less system because it offered me things that no DSLR does. I'm happy with my decision and won't go back. Fundamental for me is the fact that DSLR systems - bodies and lenses - have become bloated and weighty. Certainly Canon and Nikon have abandoned any pretence of servicing that part of the market interested in small kit and their lenses just keep getting ever bigger.

He tried the wrong Q .. Pentax Q uses the K-5 dSLR control set then adds focus peaking and better video :-)

Some need to debate features for mirrorless, much need to challenge manufacturers for a DSLR the size of an Olympus OM and it still be full frame.

Maybe at the outset of digital this was not possible but it is now. If DSLRs and lenses were designed how they used to be, the majority of serious photographers would still want that. And lens design has gone back to the dark ages. Even with a focus motor and auto diaphragm, a lens need be nowhere as big and heavy as most now are and could still be made to be distortion free without software correction.

It is only because of the limitations of the DSLR as foist on us today that most people turn to mirrorless. No viewfinder compares with an OVF, except the Leica M albeit with a parallax issue and less precision in the coverage.

So either you settle on full frame or APS-C with a decent OVF or mirrorless if you want to save bulk and weight at the expense of a paltry image on LCD or through an EVF that at best is second best, a compromise.

When first reading the article I would have thought most of the points Ming mentions were obvious to anyone thinking about spending any real money on a mirrorless system. The concept is simple a mirrorless system will have a certain set of advantages over a DSLR, so why hold Mirrorless cameras back with all these limitations that don't have anything to do with a stupid mirror being there or not? When you spend this kind of money on a DSLR you expect a certain degree of build quality, well thought out UI, etc..So why are we paying these prices and getting these quirks that most often dont have anything to do with the stupid mirror?

MT invites these fights with his articles and I expect it from him. I don't expect DPR to agree with him though. That's the real problem with this piece. Richard Butler is saying collectively that DPR agrees with MT instead of staying neutral. So that's the unnecessary insult to all the mirrorless fans here that don't agree. And the insults from these writers just seem to keep piling on with each piece written about mirrorless whereas dogs like the 5DS/R go unpunished.

Maybe there is just too much emphasis on size in the mirrorless world..

The worst disappointment about mirrorless cameras having been evolved last 5 years is the LENS SIZE. The lenses ended to be so much larger than what I expected.

As it is with so many things in life, I just adjust to the "limitations" cameras and lenses have and enjoy the tremendous choice of cameras and flashes one did not have 15 years ago. As far as I am concerned there would be not much advance in the technology if it were for me. I remember buying my first DSLR, Canon 300D, and thoroughly enjoyed this marvel of technology. Yes it was slow to start up etc and in comparison with what I paid for it at the time, good grief it was expensive. The only reason I wanted another camera was, 1, it was stolen and 2nd the start up time made me miss quite a few shots, otherwise I loved it as I do my 70D at the moment. Of course there are times that you are a bit frustrated with some quirky things like the wi-fi set up etc, but I like to take photos and not get bothered by small imperfections.

It is difficult to take Ming Thein seriously. His photos are terrible and his opinions a joke. A bit like Ken Rockwell but without the humor.