Nikon mirrorless system beta testers share first impressions in latest teaser

Man, i really hope your right, DGP (i hope you don't mind me calling you that). I don't think they will until mirrorless AF truly is a match for DSLRs, but i hope you're right.

take your wife to B&H just like others dumping their Nikon in preparation for this release

Just think... you could upgrade to a more modern, slimmer, smaller, lighter version of your wife with no flapping tongue.

Go tongueless! :D

I think it would be way more expensive to trade in a wife than just buying a new Nikon!

Now I’ve seen the announcement I don’t want it anyway. Nothing really spectacular to hook me. I was hoping for a lot more wow than they’ve given.

Lol, indeed!

And yeah, it's a bummer that it's got a9 looks and ergonomics, and 7RM3 and 7M3 performance.

I'm hoping for a Z8 or Z9 that actually has D750ish or D850ish ergonomics.

If they have a D750 version (perhaps with a few more goodies like eye AF and fully articulating screen) I'd be queuing outside Jessops like a proper fanboy.

By that time I'm sure there'll be even wider choice from Sony and Canon to confuse us even more.

I have a feeling Sony is going to buy Nikon or merge with them by then...

Royal Majesty: I would prefer D850 rather than Sony or Nikon mirrorless FF. However there are people who cannot use tripod all the time esp wedding pros with 2 huge bodies and heavy lenses, one in the shoulder and one on the neck. Weight is an important issue for a little lady wedding pro. For a photojournalist D850 on a monopod is much better with better AF performance than mirrorless. Everybody has his own priorities depending on what you do. But DSLR wont be over soon bec of better AF and stronger, more reliable body.

Don't forget much better ergonomics on the D850.

But photojournalists and sports pros tend towards the big bodies a la D4/D5 or 1DX.

most likely the size of a d7500

I compared cams with similar price tags. D5 is better and built for action however its DR is very poor at base ISO. I know a photojournalist who has neck disk heria bec of biggest Nikon cams. They are human too they break their necks to get paid in football competions.

For all the obvious reasons, the D5 is the obvious action camera.

Specifically regarding the D5's sensor, true, dynamic range is poor and it is far from ISO-invariant. However, it is exceptional when shooting at high ISO. Which is how action shooters shoot. Fast shutter speeds are necessary, not lifting shadows in post. Which makes its sensor even more beneficial.

But clearly, the D5 is not the camera for landscape or portrait photographers. That's what the D8xx series is for. If your friend can't handle shooting a D4/D5 or 1DX, she'll be missing the shots other photojournalists will be getting. So she's at a clear competitive disadvantage. Not that she can't get great shots, it's just likely that the D5 shooter will get more and better ones.

Every camera has its own purpose and target different consumer. Nikon failed in its first mirrorless attempt with 1 inch sensor. I think this time they will succeed but it needs perfection with 2nd, 3rd versions. I dont think pros will jump on the first version with an expensive price tag and you cant use your expensive lens collection. Adapters cause more problems than solutions and AF may not work properly.

Thank you so much. For a couple of hours I felt like E.T.

"There is also no film mode on the dial. I'd prefer a camera that moves to video adapted menus when in movie mode, but maybe that's not how it is done."
There's a photo/video toggle. just to the right of the viewfinder hump.

Thanks! Didn't see , or didn't look there ...

EC (Exposure Compensation) dial is a waste of space. Especially if it limits to only 3-stops. +/- button is WAY better.

That dial is unmarked, just like their DSLRs; probably assignable to other functions.

EC is used more actively when you see the result in the EVF on beforehand.

How long until someone cracks that converter and creates a nikon/sony real adaptor?

D500, D800, Canon 5D III/IV what will be their value now

@OldSonyGuy I don't care about the value of my A-Mount lenses. I've got some wonderful Minolta lenses which I use regularly and which I am not going to sell. Their value could drop to $0 and it wouldn't make a difference to me.

The Sonys are going to lose value even faster now that Nikon announced their better mirrorless cameras. And over 300 Nikon lenses work on those guys!!!
No more cramp inducing Sonys!

"if you wanted FF mirrorless, you didn't have any other option other than Sony"

Ever heard of Leica? ;)

lol

I'll be honest. I didn't know who Peter McKinnon was either...

I just hope the 4k video does not squeeze the image like the Sony at 24p. The Sony image makes everything more slender, it is not very accurate. It is subtle and I bet most people don't even know it but, I want accurate.

I was just saying with all the buzz about the wizbang cameras.. we will see them when it get here and NOT before...

You can say Nikon loaded up the bases, let's see what happens next.

Some Japanese large retailers received their Nikon announcement material today. Expected that it would have been leaked already to the cellars of the interwebs. :-)

@ Lammerse - maybe we'll see some leaks soon.

@PAntunes "Even if the camera is amazing, some people will feel frustrated because they created crazy expectations with the tease campaign."

I can't imagine too many serious photographers have "crazy" expectations. People talk like that in the comments because they are just playing to the Nikon haters...

Pan tunes - there may be one or two who ‘expect the impossible’, in which I would contend that they don’t fully understand any cameras. As for the glowing mount..........well!

And Sony didn’t really have a sense of urgency with their mirrorless introductions - virtually no competition that they were losing business to. Not the case with Nikon of course, and I agree with others that one key objective was to make a few people hang on before jumping - and I’ve already seen the effect at my local camera store - Nikon users are waiting (not the case with Canon users!).

Nikon have done a great job with this campaign, makes no difference whether people liked it or not.

But, as always, it all depends on the product delivering - if not Nikon will have flak of their own making, and even though this is Nikon we’re talking about I think they realise that. Sales will be the arbiter of course.

Cool down and wait...

@T3 - I was mainly thinking about IBIS, which the Nikon mirrorless will have according to the rumors.

As for the Canon M mount I can only speculate, but I wouldn't be surprised if the market for this is too small for the third party lens manufacturers to bother.
Nikon is happy to let others make Nikon F lenses, and I don't see why they would change that with their mirrorless offering?

Rubber Dials . . . "Regarding ergonomics - the word is simply abused in these forums. Sony cameras don't have poor ergonomics in any way. The cameras are just smaller and not what you're used to. No-one criticises A-mount cameras for their ergonomics - they're also made by Sony."

Really? My A7 doesn't have good ergonomics. It's boxy and uncomfortable.

The A-mount cameras, like my A65, DO have good ergonomics. You're right about that. I had an A55 and an A77, and both of those had good ergonomics too. I still prefer the ergonomics of my Sigma SD1 Merrill though. Unfortunately the SD Quattro H doesn't have ergonomics that are as good, and neither camera has fold-out screens like the Sony cameras. The Sigmas lack a lot features too, so I have a Sony A7 and A65 to fill in where the Sigmas are missing things.

I am looking forward to seeing what this new Nikon line of mirrorless cameras is like. If they offer the same dynamic range as other Nikons, I might get one.

So basically anyone who says sony has bad ergonomics is trying to tell others what to think and feel.

These trolls are doing it for years here. Someone once did the same for nikon and i see people burnt...

RD, yes it does. You can't say it doesn't look anything like a Sony camera, c'mon man.

Just like most DSLR's look similar, so too does this Nikon to Sony's mirrorless.

You're blind. ed.

Well they are both SLR-shaped.

OMG, not very good actors...

What in the world is up with the absolute lack of sense of humor here???

Looks like Nikon is really good when it comes to marketing. Their mirrorless teasers campaign was hands-down successful and generated massive excitement and noise (and suprisingly A LOT of sony haters). Nikon now has to release a very good camera as the expectations are sky-high. Im doubtful Nikon can get it right on their first try. We'll see on Aug 23. Its definitely gonna be a day of reckoning.

Um - no. It doesn't sound like that.

To you.

Doesn't sound that way to me.

Having a great and perfect tool as d850 is there is no reason to move to nikon mirrorless. D850 can do everything.

Man, i sure hope so!

Nah... if canon made a mirrorless camera and shortened the flange distance they would probably release an adapter for their EF lenses, which I would prefer to have over a 3rd party adapter.

Yeah, but i don't have any Canon lenses but i have a lot of Nikkors.

@Royal The only reason you would draw an ergonomic conclusion from the much smaller Nikon 1s, while ignoring their good DSLR ergonomics, is that you just have to have something to criticize.

I'm not ridiculing you, just your opinion that since the ergonomics on small N1 camera bodies wasn't as good, their larger mirrorless camera won't have good DSLR-quality ergonomics.

Here is a mockup of the back based on a leaked image. The majority of the controls are there; the misisng ones may be integrated in anotehr way. I like the controls on the right side of the screen, its easier to use one handed and I don't need to move my left hand from where it supports the lens. Mirrorless has different priorities as far as physical controls are concerned; for example, since you can see exposure in the viewfinder, you don't need to chimp with the playback button nearly as frequently. it can therefore be deprioritized in relation to more frequently needed controls.

https://nikonrumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Nikon-Z6-Z7-mirrorless-camera-back.jpg

Perhaps you are right, perhaps not, but Nikon does understand camera ergonomics when it comes to their larger bodies.

No, i understand what you're saying and take no offense at all.

I'm not stereotyping Nikon based on their 1-series. My statements are based on what is based in their latest video. Fact-based.

And as you state, the "mirrorless expectation" is substantially lower than DSLR expectations. As if mirrorless is the redheaded stepchild to DSLRs. And that certainly has been the case! But i have a $3,000 redheaded stepchild and i can't stand it. I'm interested in a true DSLR-equivalent MILC regarding ergonomics, and this is definitely not it.

But in light of Nikon's grave 1-series mistakes it very disheartening to see them repeat them here, clearly adopting the redheaded stepchild mentality. They're totally obviously going for Sony MILC-shooters. The redheaded stepchildren of photography. Oh! Lol, jk. :D

I didn't say the expectations were lower, just different. My example was that since you can see exposure in the viewfinder you don't need to access the playback button as frequently so it doesn't need to have as high a priority location as it would on a DSLR where you need it to check exposure. Nikon's camera is larger than the A7 and A9 so its obvious they are going for better ergos than Sony.

Lots of buttons ALWAYS matters. Look at all the comments.Nearly all the complaints are that it's still too big. That simply is not a complaint serious photographers make, certainly not of a FF camera that's likely smaller than a D7500. Anyone saying the D850 is too big and heavy would be laughed out of the room, and this camera is smaller and lighter. Yes, I'm holding this camera's ergonomics to the same standard as the D850 because that's the only caliber I'm interested in. Not interested in a slight upgrade to the 7RM2. I'm interested in a "mirrorless D850."

"I'm interested in a "mirrorless D850."

Not likely that you will get one....

Yup, i fear you're right. Honestly, i wouldn't be surprised if, ironically, Sony beats Nikon to the punch on that one, if it ever happens.

My take on this is that since mirrorless AF truly won't pose any kind of threat at all to pro DSLRs for at least 3-5 years that Nikon and Sony KNOW that they're not going to attract pros or genuinely serious photographers until that time. Plus, not nearly enough native mirrorless lenses yet for pros to adopt the format either. So, they're specifically targeting the "enthusiast compact" tech-geek-with-money-to-burn segment that simply has to have the hottest gadget. To them small and light, and good online reviews is all that matters. They just shoot it as if it was a $4,000ish point-and-shoot not knowing it sucks because DPR gave it a good review. They're the guinea pigs paying for the R&D to improve MILC AF to DSLR standards.

Continued...

Case in point my 7RM2: aside from superb IQ and ISO-invariance, it is an awful pain to shoot with and it can't AF to save its life unless there is an abundance of light, and even then your AF point had better have the kind of contrast it wants to see or it'll still be hunting. No real photographer is going to endure such torture in their primary system. But the 7RM2 sold for over $3,000 and was sold-out everywhere for a long time. Ridiculous.

Well, little piggies, buy tons of these up so some company can come up with DSLR-caliber MILC AF so that pro ergonomics can finally make their way into a MILC body! Thanks! :D

Done...

7RM2 is outdated and Sony has produced three (!) more advanced models since. How many camera updates (DSLR or mirrorless) did Canikon produce during that time?

The Sonys may not be perfect (A9 and A7R3 come close though), but I rather invest in a company that innovates rapidly, even if it means the price of their camera bodies falls equally fast.

I guess you missed the whole point i was trying to make about people clamoring over such a crappy camera even though it cost over $3,000.

The a9 is WAY far from perfect! It's a deal-breaker on ergonomics alone; they're horrible! And its AF sucks compared to DSLRs. Believe the hype about its AF if you like. But you'd be wrong if you did.

The a9 is poser bait. But maybe some wedding photographers could benefit from it. But mainly due to a silent shutter, not performance.

Anyhow, i suggest you get 2 a9s and 2 of each of these new Nikons. Pay for my pro MILC ergonomics to come 5 years from now! ;)

"I guess you missed the whole point i was trying to make about people clamoring over such a crappy camera even though it cost over $3,000."

At the time, this and the A7ii were the only FF camera on the market with IBIS. To some photographers, this is worth the money. I agree, they were hard to use (I had them both). Image quality of the A7rii is still unbeaten. A7riii is much easier to handle, and gives the same great image quality.

Let's not forget that the first A7 came on the market in early 2014. So in about 4 years we got nine (!) full frame camera models from Sony to choose from and a plethora of lenses. With such a rapid development, it is very easy to say how "crappy" the old models are, forgetting that many still use the original A7 and A7s and A7r cameras satisfying their needs at a great price point.

Will there ever be the pro MILC ergonomics you want? Even in 5 years? Who knows.... I bet Nikon did some marketing research when they decided to make their first MILC camera look and feel pretty much like the Sony ones. From the comparison pictures, size etc. appears almost the same.

That's my point, BBQ. Because Sony set such a low bar and defined the MILC genre thusly, many MILC photographers likely don't have DSLR experience, or found DSLRs too complicated. As you state, many are happy with their original version a7. Nice image quality, but aside from that, what a truly terrible camera. Again, very low standards. I'm a very demanding semi-pro. When i pay $3,000+ for a body, i know what else is out there and i know what is fair to expect. This camera at $4,000ish is WAY overpriced for what it fails to deliver.

But, Nikon will probably sell plenty of these because they will appeal to the same people Sony FF MILCs do; money-burning posers. But at least with this system you'll get F-mount lens accessibility and that is a giant advantage over Sony and inherently makes this system more valuable than Sony's.

I can only speak for myself. The A7 already gave me great pictures and each generation of Sony FF cams only got better, IN A VERY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. With my A7riii I finally think I AM HERE. NO MORE NEED FOR FUTURE UPGRADES. to me this is it.

If you think it is overpriced, and search for something cheaper, yet at the same time with the big size and ergonomics of the old DSLRs, you may be in for a big disappointment.

To call photographers who have different preferences and priorities than yourself "money burning posers" is silly, but you know that yourself.

How well that F- to Z-mount adapter really works remains to be seen. Hopefully better than the already available F- to Sony E-mount ones. It is interesting, that you put all your hope in that adapter piece now.... hope for you that Nikon delivers, but I would not be that optimistic.

I'm already not going to own a Z6 or Z7 due to inadequate ergonomics. I may pick one up used on Craigslist a year after it's released for much less expensive than new and dump my 7RM2,just for the upgrade in ergonomics. I'm only going to pre-order a Z, probably the "Z8" or "Z9" when it has true D750ish or D850ish ergonomics.

Sony's image quality has been excellent for a long time, that's never in question. I'm saying that those who are satisfied with any Sony Alpha simply do not not find need to change a lot of settings quickly regularly. As I've said many times, they simply are not demanding. I am. To me ergonomics are everything (because IQ and exceptional AF (in DSLRs) are already givens), and this Nikon's ergonomics aren't good enough.

Glad you're happy with your Sonys. Enjoy them in good health!

On mark iii bodies you can make your own custom menu and can arrange and populate it any way you want. Plus you have three instead two Memory settings. Plus all buttons are now programmable for still / video / playback separately. For someone who needs to change settings frequently, how could that be any better?

As for ergonomics/size - I guess all you can do is hope that someone will make big cameras again. Canon perhaps? Good luck!

I really don't know how else to put it, BBQ. Sony ergonomics, and this new Z's as well, just aren't good enough for me. Period.

I'll give Sony kudos for improving theirs over the years, but they get scoldings for taking so so long to incompletely roll out what photographers have been screaming at them from the start to do.

It is crystal clear - all I am saying is you may have to wait a long time, maybe forever. I am pretty sure Sony/Nikon/Canon do some marketing research to figure out what will sell and what will not, no matter how much a handful of photographers "scream from the beginning".

Yeah, i don't expect DSLR ergonomics until mirrorless AF is DSLR-caliber, or at least very close. Probably 3-5 years. With Sony now on the ropes, I'm looking forward to seeing how they'll up the ante.

Got a question for you guys currently discussing/arguing about ergonomics.

Not considering the amount of buttons available, what do you guys think of the ergonomics on the the entry level DSLRs (SL2 for example). And what do you think about the mid-level DSLRs? Are they ergonomically far worse than that of the 5DIII/D750, D850, 6D, 1DXII, D5 etc??

I mean ergonomics is all about fitting to human use. You all haven't even touched the camera, yet there seems to be an insistence that it sucks ergonomically.

To me there are 4 factors that go into body ergonomics. Grip size + weight, hand position, ease of use relating to controls.

The lighter the body the smaller the grip can be, until it gets to a point that the position/form my hand takes becomes uncomfortable for held for extended periods.

I have an A7III. And ergonomically it isn't as comfortable as when I was on canon. The A7 series are small and lighter, but they are denser. The grip is closer to the controls than for example with the Z cameras, with means that the manner in which I have to move my hand to use the controls is "tedious". Not to mention your pinky hangs off the bottom.

Seems like nikon has tried to address these observations. The body is slightly wider allowing for bigger buttons and probably a more comfortable operation of them. The grip is taller and deeper for a more comfortable form, and your pink has support. The camera is far lighter than the D850 which should compensate for the smaller form.

If programmed right (if possible) those function keys might compensate for some of the buttons removed from the left.

However, by the removal of those buttons they should have allowed for a flip screen.

In terms of AF, unless you are doing spots, I doubt it is limiting to most. Lack of 2 slots :-(

Lack of dual slots is no problem since these cameras are not aimed at professionals. Nikon professionals will stay with DSLR for a while longer, I would think.

As for pinky support, I added a small Arca style base plate to fit my mom on ball. Problem solved.

Whether The Nikon Z cameras are any better ergonomically remains to be seen. To me they look suspiciously similar in style and size to the Sony ones.

I have a feeling the Z actually is a tweaked rebranded Sony and that it's an experiment to see if Nikon's base will accept Sony product. If so, the merger/acquisition of Nikon and Sony will be announced.

“mom on ball” should have been “mono ball”, darn auto correction,

Haha.. how much different do you actually expect them to be? Most DSLRs look fairly similar to me. At least in the way you are implying. Cause botton layout is not the same. Mount is not the same. Full weather sealed, apparently potentially better evf optics (at least z6 vs A7III) Nikon has the dial on the other size and a top panel which Sony doesn’t have. Did you want them to put glitters on the thing or something?

Looks to me like they just made a smaller Nikon grip, added a squares body (to maximize internal space), a hump for the evf, and then botton layout. And twin dails, bit not an exposure comp (not that I have seen),

Internally it can also be completely different.

Of course Sony calls it 4D, what with its ability to travel forwards and backwards in time.

"Of course Sony calls it 4D, what with its ability to travel forwards and backwards in time."

No, but perhaps anticipate movement is space over time :)

@RubberDials

Why would you assume that the A9's OSPDAF tracking would bean 3D tracking? You mention a reason why it might not yourself. Larger pixels from the nikon's tracking system certainly gives it an advantage. You should also not forget that nikons and canons focus wide open. So stopped down focus on the A9 automatically depletes the focus points of light.

"Poor ergonomics and overpricing doomed Nikon 1. This new Nikon MILC has poor ergonomics and is overpriced. The poor ergonomics have got to indicate that Nikon knows the AF is not up to the task of rivaling pro DSLRs, and therefore not targeted at pros. So why price it like a D850? Or higher!? And history repeats."

Well - you could be right.

"Personally I think Nikon will steamroll with this new camera and I think Sony will be the first one to get flattened."

Well - you could be right too.

To me, fullframe mirrorless does seem to contradict the hole idea with mirrorless cameras. They will sell well for a while, but the quality of the smaller sensors and very high prices of fullframe will limit the success.

I believe the future of mirrorless is small sensors and implementation of functionality similar to those seen on smartphones.

All due respect, LFPCPH, but i do believe MILC is the future of photography. But at present even the a9's touted "best" mirrorless AF is no threat at all to DSLRs shot by seasoned action photographers. Once that AF gap closes, it's lights-out for DSLRs. That leap could happen within 5 years. The ergonomics are already there. D5, D850, D500, D7500, but not even Nikon will put those ergonomics on a MILC. Yet.

No, a lot can be told by the latest teaser. There are no buttons to the left of the flip-out screen. That's a lot of missing important buttons. Plus, it's a substantial departure from the pretty standard high-end Nikon layout. It's like a fusion of a D5300's and a D850's ergonomics. Not even as good as a D7200's ergonomics. But at about 4x the price...

I'll just stick with my crappy 7RM2 until Nikon pulls their head out of their derriere and gives their FX MILC true DSLR ergonomics. That is, if this gigantic blunder doesn't spell the unnecessary end of this format a la 1-series. It just blows me away how Nikon keeps on doing totally stupid things like this when they've been sitting on the perfect answer for so long.

The iphone had lots of missing buttons, and was so doomed to ergonomic failure... Really I would not trust anyone criticising the ergonomics of this body or any other, until they have had hands on experience using it for a shoot or 2 at least, and so I think I will await Joe Mcnally's verdict here.

You are right about the adapter.That may be the key to all existing Nikon owners with plenty of Nikon glass & with the upcoming 500 mm 5.6 f it would be a win win for the existing Nikon action shooters(Sports & Wild life) .New buyers may see the camera in a different light .As a bird shooter i plan to buy the 500 mm & then see how the MILC shapes up & then go for it after an year or so.

You mean the Canon that was a copy of Nikon's 200-400mm with a gimicky converter built in?