The Canon EOS M5 launches the M line of mirrorless cameras into greater significance than ever before. With abundant external controls, a mature touchscreen interface and extremely impressive Dual Pixel autofocus, it's a camera we can't help but like, even if we wish it had turned up to the mirrorless party a little earlier. And sure, it may not have headline features like 4K or high frame rate video, but Canon clearly knows how to make a camera that is both comfortable to hold and pleasing to use.
We stopped by Canon's stand at Photokina 2016 and talked with Canon product specialist Hin Pang to talk a little more about what makes the EOS M5 so likeable.
Stunning to hear DPR staff say this is the camera they look forward to the most. It doesn't even have 4k. Lenses are going to be an issue and there is competition that already focuses as fast. Just bizarre.
Eh. As much as we all like to geek out about the latest cameras boasting the greatest specs, we also like cameras that are just fun to use. If I were to use the M5 as my carry-everywhere camera, I can guarantee you I won't miss 4K or really need much more than the 22/2 lens (although I would really like some more prime lenses).
My X100 barely shoots 720p video and also only has one lens - it's still my favorite personal camera to use for fun.
Pancake STM lenses, what more do you need? This is a camera for real photogs. If you can't figure out how to make great pix with this camera, take up macrame or beard growing. But stop hanging around here complaining.
You are right I would not need anything else than a full set of small (smallest possible for the format and decent (non-L) IQ, not necessarily pancake) f/1.8 or f/2.0 prime lenses. But... where are they?
There is just one: the EF-M 22mm F/2.0 and nothing else. EF-S and EF pancakes lose their "pancakeism" at the moment you put them on the adapter. And they are 2.8. Too dark for my uses (available light, not shallow DOF) . And, as far as I know, there is no compatible 15mm F/2.0 lens (of course I mean one with AF) at all.
So once more: Yes, If there were, additionally to the existing 22mm f/2, also other dedicated EF-M lenses, namely 15mm f/2.0, 32mm f/1.8 IS, 60mm or 70mm f/1.8 or f/2 IS then I would not need anything else (maybe except my old EF 100mm f/2 on an adapter) and I would buy the body and the lenses and switch from my old Canon 450D (which has actually the same problem - no decent EF-S wide angle primes, even not a 22mm f/2).
Just use Samyang 12mm or 11-22 and 50mm STM via adapter. Still a small, very affordable and optically very nice setup. It would be hard not being able to take great photos with those.
Samyang has no AF. I was able to manually focus on film SLRs that had special helpers in their optical viewfinders. But for EVF I need AF.
50mm STM is surely a nice lens for a DSLR (I have the older non-STM version). But with the adapter it is just too big for the mirrorless. We have different ideas about the meaning of "small". Look, with M5 the total length of the assembly is even longer than on my old 450D: http://camerasize.com/compact/#684.471.2,331.471,ha,t
I can do great photos (for an occasionally photographing amateur, I think) with my old 450D. I can see some limitation of it, including its size (too big to have it most of the time with me) and the lack of reasonable fast wide angle lenses designed specifically for APS-C (i.e. as small as possible, not the size of Sigma 20mm 1.8). I would like a system that removes that limitation, but the current M system just does not fulfill this dream. So I stay taking pictures with my 450D and Cannon will not see any cent from me.
It is all there with the M5 as described. I would really recommend to pick one up when available.
With the Samyang 12mm it is very hard not to focus correctly. Maybe give it a try some time and see if it works for you. It is really easy with that focal length and you got focus peaking. Plus there is the 11-22 with AF. Both are about the smallest options you will ever get on an APS-C system. Heck, they can even be the reason to buy into Canon M for non-Canon users.
Take the M5 into your hand with the adapted 50STM and you will feel the difference compared to your 450D immediately. Admittedly take an Olympus 45mm 1.8 and you can even be a bit smaller but mft 1.8 is not APS-C 1.8. With a 50mm there are limits to what you can do but I am pretty surprised that 3mm in length are even worth talking about especially when the camera around it makes the much bigger difference. It is not going to be much smaller in APS-C.
I completely fail to see how any other APS-C camera meets your requirements in speed, performance and possibly price better? I do have a complete Fuji setup right now and it is way and beyond this cute little M5 setup in size, weight and price. I am pretty much tempted to get back to Canon with the M5 BECAUSE of size. I do not think we are pretty far apart in that respect but I already went over E-M5, Nex-7 and a bunch of Fuji cameras to finally arrive back in the M system which fortunately now gets a high performance model for the first time.
And yes, if there is the 50STM implementation for EF-M I would surely go and buy one but in the meantime the 50STM will do just fine.
You are right, there is no system that would meet my criteria. And therefore I am not buying any new body for 11 years (actually the one I bought last time was a 350D in 2005, the 450D which I use now was given to me about two years ago) and any new lens for about 9 years. Simply the lenses that I miss and I would buy (EF-S 22 f/1.8 and EF-S 15 f/2 bot with AF) do not exist at all.
Canon decided not to produce those lenses, neither EF-S (where I understand the flange problems with 15mm) nor EF-M (where it seems to be a pure marketing which arrogantly says: "you want primes? Go for full-frame!").
So I use my current equipment and I am usually happy with the results. I feel the limitations of the equipment, but I do not want to spend money on new things which have some of the same limitations.
And occasionally I am writing to forums like this one just to show that there are people like me who wait for something suitable not buying things which do not meet their needs.
I am also considering mft (like you mentioned e.g. the 45mm Oly lens). They actually have all the lenses I would like to have and some nice bodies. But I am afraid about the smaller sensor because I like to take pictures in low light. And the price plays also a role, I am just an amateur and completely change the system (about 4000 Euro) is hard to justify...
Canon's M5 is already proving to be way too easy to sell. Costco, Best Buy, and the other big box stores won't be able to keep up with the demand for this cleverly designed compact ILC. And the halo effect surrounding this camera is certain to drive up sales of the M10 and M3 cameras. Maybe even G-series PowerShots and Rebel DSLRs too.
Fujifilm is proving that they too know how to play this game with their X-T2, X-Pro2, compact ILCs and well designed GFX 50S MF system. Also, Pentax and Olympus have found their markets.
Meanwhile, Sony applies an a99-II bandaid to the sucking chest wound that is their legacy A-mount line of DSLTs, and Panasonic's GH5 and G85 are the paddles being pressed against the chest of its camera business in a frantic attempt to restart its dead heart.
Nikon? They had an "old geezer" moment. They fell down, but are expected to get back up. Easy does it, grandpa. :))
Because the lack of native lenses this camera is targeted to existing canon users via adapted lenses. I cant imagine anybody investing in this as a system.
If you're thinking about a portable high quality camera system Canon still has a long way to go.
The target market for this camera is enormous number of Canon DSLR users wanting a discreet, ergonomically well designed, capable cam which can be easily adapted to plethora of Canon lenses and accessories. Also upgraders from previous M and Powershot users. And finally, people who are dissatisfied with M4/3 format. I think, the camera will do just fine (read: will easily beat the existing competition) in terms of sales and popularity. More good quality lenses in M mount will follow shortly. Just the logical consequence of hitting the "bull's eye".
@BarnEt Completely unbalanced camera is not accurate. You should check out some of the options on camerasize.com ..... And your argument falls over once access to EF and EFS lens is taken into account.
Surely you can understand the appeal to Canon shooters with investment in EF or EFS lens. If they need the speed in the lens, its already there and at better quality (and they probably already have it in their kit bag).
the body is in europe 450 euro's more expensive as the compareable Fujifilm
The XT-10 Same size EVF 8 fps burst no weathersealing 1080p 60 fps video recording good ergonomics with more then enough dials
The XT-2 is a different beast all together with a vastly more advanced feature set. 4k video with F-log for enhanced dynamic range 11 fps with AF-C magnesium weathersealed body massive EVF that is larger the the 1DX OVF Optional sealed grip with headphone jack.
That is why they call every new (non-revolutionary) product: another choice. Fuji created a very nice system, no doubt. A pricey one as well. I love the execution of the concept on part of Fuji. Eos M5 might not appeal to current Fuji users but it has a massive appeal for every Canon shooter and everyone who recognize the solid position of Canon in the marketplace. Can you say that about Fuji cameras?
@ @BarnET - your earlier comparison about f/stops was with the X-T2. So I am a little confused that you now switch to the X-T10.
No review of the M5 has been completed yet but when comparing it on paper to the X-T10, the M5 is likely to have better image quality (much higher resolution sensor and access to ISO 100), better AF beyond single point AF (where the two cameras are likely to be about equal), better metering, better video (not the X-T10's strong point I understand) and access to the EF lens library.
At the end of the day Fuji has a great system in place for the APS C format size (mirrorless ILC) and Canon doesn't. I own Canon glass and that would the only reason to buy this camera but if I don't then I'd look Fuji, MFt or Sony.
BarnET: Just go away. I will sell my lousy Fuji set with a hand kiss if I can get a camera and lens system that actually works reliably and ergonomically without the xtrans hassle - of course for about 1/3 of the price. I am tired of all the ways my 5000 Euro Fuji crap fails me on a daily basis. Tell, me: What is one stop more worth to me if xtrans, AF fail, lens flare fail (you big 10-24), ergonomics fail, speed fail, field cuverture or IS fail (yes you, little 18-55) ruin me images every day with my T1? Honestly, Canon needs to do a really bad job with the M5 to end up worse. Yes Fuji has nice specs and a nice lens lineup, but you need to get the 2.8 primes and T2 to get anywhere near to speed and reliability of some sorts. Go there, drop 5K and be gone. Thank you.
The camera is fine, but Canon needs a lens roadmap if they want enthusiasts or prosumers to buy into this system. Canon's track record for releasing useful lenses for the APS-C sensor is not encouraging. The irony is that they cover the wide end very well but have little to offer in the (relatively easy to design) normal fast lens category.
agreed. a road map with products coming out within a year and going out two to three years to prove Canon is serious. Fuji's lens roadmap convinced me to go Fuji for my MILC needs; I had faith Fuji woukd improve camera body performance over time.
attaching DSLR kens on a small camera is no more than a financial stop gap. the resulting kit is too big/heavy.
Don't know why Canon is not agressive in releasing new lens designs. I finally gave up waiting.
Those who predicted the EOS M mount was dead can now eat their pixels.
While the previous models were worthy to be buried in the dumpster of digital trash, this "Lazarus" offering may well be the turning point of Canon to catch up and prepare for an eventual overtake in the mirrorless race for superior cameras.
In terms of sales, Canon will boom, because it already has a mass base of loyal users.
It can only be good for Canon to further develop this line.
this time Canon chooses 80D platform and build a MILC around it. Except for lack of 4K video, this seems to be alright package. Something tells, they may introduce another MILC after the anticipated 6DMk2 and base it on the 6DMk2. retain APSC sensor or use FF sensor which able to use EF-M lens in crop mode and use EF lens via adaptor for FF. I have the 6D, good hi ISO IQ but lacked a bit more sophistication in the AF department. Expect 6dMk2 to have better AF (similar to 80D), 4K and touchscreen/tilt screen etc.
No no, they said in the video it is 'very very small' and '55% of the size of the 80D' but all the DSLR people will tell you the A7R II isn't really any smaller than a DSLR ;)
I like the M5, I think it is the camera I have been waiting for. Aside from my 2 large cameras (5DsR & 645Z), I have been wanting a slightly smaller camera that has decent AF capability (Ability to change AF Point location, Face-detection & AF Coverage). I tried an A7Rii, but I don' t like it. Difficult menu system, large heavy native lens, and don't work well with my existing Canon lenses. I purchased a SL1 for it's size, but the tiny viewfinder and AF Coverage just isn't sufficient for me. (Gave that camera to my dad). Provided the M5 can addressed some of the weak points on the M1 & M3, I think I'll pick one up.
I suppose if you don't care that the feature set on this camera is vastly inferior to the competition, then yeah, this may be a fit. Given that it appears cost is not a major issue for you though, I would submit that the Fuji X-T2 or Olympus E-M1ii would be a far better choice. With those systems the Menus are much better than the Sony and you'll have a fully developed ecosystem. The Canon glass choices are weak at best. I owned the M1 & M3 and finally gave up. I own the E-M5ii Oly now and it's fantastic.
The feature set is not "vastly inferior" to the competition. It's missing 4K. If you're a cinematographer who needs 4K, this not your camera.
Other than that? DPAF is arguably the best mirrorless AF out there. The sensor is excellent. The UI and touch screen are awesome, especially the way the touch screen is integrated with AF while using the EVF. And while it never gets reported in a DxO score, Canon produces some of the most pleasing colors OOC of anyone.
The Sony A6300 has a cumbersome UI and overheats shooting 4K. The XPro 2 is awesome but $700 more and lenses are expensive. Olympus has some interesting options but forget adapting Canon glass or older glass with that 2x crop.
The glaring issue for stills photography is that Canon needs to release more EF-M lenses. Not slow super zooms, but fast primes like the 22mm and short, excellent zooms like the 11-22.
@Daniel Lee Taylor, strength of DPAF is in continues tracking for video compared to other DSLR Live View systems. Mirrorless cameras are designed around Live View AF systems and in general are much better than DSLR's LV.
I'm not sure I understand why they don't just use the existing DSLR Mount for a mirror-less system. With the multitude of lens canon has for the EOS mount in the market, I think most people would overlook a slightly deeper mirrorless camera. (maybe I have this wrong)
Options. If you only ever want to use the EF lens selection, just super glue the adapter in place, and it is effectively what you asked for. But, with EF-m you could also get smaller, lighter travel lenses.
The EF lenses are too big and heavy for a compact system, and not everybody owns EF lenses.
Fuji's lenses are what Canon M users want--faster, and some are sharper. But the zooms are too big and too heavy for a really compact system.
So far, nobody has figured out how to make a system with a decent sized sensor (no smaller than APS) and sharp, fast zoom lenses that's really small and really light. Canon kept the lenses slow, so they are not monsters, but they certainly are slow.
Physics. Existing mounts require existing distances to the sensor, spaced to include a floppy mirror in between. Keeping the same mount without the mirror means keeping a big gaping void in the middle, doing nothing.
Why not showing the EOS M5 and the EOS 100D/SL1 side by side? Canon can make a small, cheap and reliable DSLR that works well with most EF and EF-S lenses.
OK, they want to sell mirrorless body and new EF-M lenses... Good luck! I have been very happy with various Canon products for over 20 years, but this camera and this system are pointless IMO. All the photos and videos shown here highlight the fact that the M5 is a bulky and very ordinary, yet very expensive, camera. We can get a new 100D body for $400! On the other hand, the release of this $1000 M5 body explains clearly why, more that 3 years after the release of the 100D/SL1, we are still waining for a successor. Beware Canon... If you want to make me jump in the mirrorless black hole and invest in a new system, I might explore alternative brands ;-)
The SL1 feels nearly perfect in my hands. The price is fantastic! Shooting with it was a pleasure. I went to my favorite pier, Reddington Shores Long Pier. The day was warm, but not too much so. The late afternoon clouds added to the scene making the sky over the top for a photographer. I shot for a leisurely hour and a half. Suddenly, the urge to rush home came over me, I just had to see what my catch of the day would be. Five minutes later, I pulled into my driveway. Rushed into the house. Fired up the PC. Ripped the card out of my svelt little SL1. Opened LR. Pulled up my first image............Nooooooooooo! Nooooooooo! Nooooooo! Went to the second, third, fourth, fifth..........On every shot ENOUGH NOISE TO WAKE THE DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Camera returned. I would not shoot another shot on an SL1 if you paid me. I wouldn't order one were it free!!! The End. In spite of that experience, I'm still willing to go to check out the M5.
I have to disagree with NoMirror99's comments on the SL1. I've had mine since the first year that they were launched and nothing but excellent results. ISO 100-400 are practically noiseless, and 800 is very, very good. Maybe NoMirror99 had a defect issue, but no reason to trash the SL1.
I would love to see the introduction of an SL2, and am concerned that the M5 is intended to fill this spot. Bring on the SL2 please Canon!!!
Clearly it is – in isolation – a very nice camera that will be able to take great photos.
But would you buy this when faced with a very interesting set of alternatives? Perhaps if you had old Canon lenses. But I don't like the idea of using adapters for old lenses – lenses that are mostly rather big for a compact system camera. And the choice of native lenses is, well, not much of a choice.
The lack of 4K is just perverse too. I don't understand that. I think many people will pass on the M5 just because of that. I almost didn't buy my Olympus E-M5 Mk II because of that lack, but that was some time ago.
As the owner of an Olympus E-M5 Mk II I think Canon should be ashamed of their choice of the 'M5' name for this camera. That's perverse too.
The main thing going for it is that it is much, much better than its Nikon rival. Oh wait, Nikon doesn't have a rival. Not even one they've announced but not managed to get working.
I hear the M5 Motorway was thinking of changing its name.
Yeah, Cx1-D E-5M would be a much better name. /s
In leaving out 4K, Canon has cleverly avoided sales to those who have a legitimate need for 4K, and those who have no idea what so ever what 4K means but have been told it is crucial. I mean even their phone has it.
@Dave Oddie yeahhhh. I had already linked to that article in this article. Direct quote from it:
"In fact, despite its comparatively pedestrian feature set, given the choice, I'd take an EOS M5 out with me over a Sony Alpha any day of the week."
There's a lot of other potential sentences in there to bring out, but the impetus for the dramatic title of that article was really this: "Because this is the camera that Canon should have released at least two years ago...."
In any case, I'm also looking forward to the M5. I shot a lot of video for this show, and exactly none of it was shot in 4K.
"I shot a lot of video for this show, and exactly none of it was shot in 4K."
Great. If you were using the M5 you wouldn't have a choice either way. And I know the gist of the other article was this is late to the party but that being so the fact it doesn't do 4K says it is still behind the curve. So I think your headline with the preceding article remains more appropriate.
"In fact, despite its comparatively pedestrian feature set, given the choice, I'd take an EOS M5 out with me over a Sony Alpha any day of the week."
Oh it was noted. A camera that at the time had had nothing but a brief hands on with, with so very few lenses, significantly inferior image quality and feature set - But yeah that is obviously such an easy statement to make and continue to make right?
Believe it or not having a limited feature set (like the Canon with powershot menus) will make menus smaller and easier to navigate, a bit like using MS paint, it is 'so easy and intuitive vs using Photoshop' right?
I like in the video how gushing DPR are over it being their favourite mirrorless right now, other systems get canned for not having enough lenses, being too complicated, wrong assumptions by ill informed bloggers, having too many features for the (wrongly assumed) target market. But having a handful of kit zooms and one slow focussing prime makes this Canon top of the heap ;)
@abortabort - Broad statement to make "significantly inferior image quality".
Yes, the Sony sensor leads the 80D sensor (presuming the M5 sensor is the same) but the gap is not that significant for the intended use of these cameras.
"Yes, the Sony sensor leads the 80D sensor (presuming the M5 sensor is the same) but the gap is not that significant for the intended use of these cameras."
So you think the difference between the 80D 24MP APS-C and A7R II 42MP 135 sensor as insignificant? Interesting...
You were the one throwing statements out there like "significantly inferior image quality" so chill. The comparison was never going to be with the A77RII now was it.
The obvious comparison is the A6300 or the A6000 (I think they use the same sensor anyway). The consensus is that the Sony sensor has the edge but the Canon has a better user interface.
"The comparison was never going to be with the A77RII now was it."
I wasn't commenting on comparisons I was commenting on statements, that the writer would rather take the Canon with its inferior everything over a Sony Alpha, after very little time actually spent with the thing.
The A6300 might be the point of comparison for most logical comparisons, but that is not what I was responding to. I feel what the writer 'should' have written is that they'd prefer to take this thing over an A6300, or maybe over any APS-C E-Mount, but that isn't what they said.
The writer didn't state "inferior everything", he referenced a "pedestrian feature set". This comment only really stands scrutiny with video spec comparisons if 4K is important to you.
The user interface of the Sony lets it down (a problem that they may have addressed with the A99II by the sounds of it).
No I'm stating inferior feature set. The writer said they would prefer it to a Sony Alpha, quite a big statement given the limited hands on time. Perhaps it is something that simply requires more of a qualifier, such as 'for adapting EF lenses' or 'because I only shoot with a 35mm equiv' or 'to the A6300', or 'when I use a small mirrorless camera I prefer simplicity and and not worried about performance'. But there wasn't.
I can't speculate under what conditions that would equal true, so I have to assume all conditions and frankly I think it's a bit of a farce. An off the cuff statement that I don't feel that places like DPR should make with the level of influence they hold.
And PS, a 'user interface' isn't just the menus. Sony's actually have quite a decent user interface, but unfortunately for many users (or testers moreso) that the rapid expansion of features hasn't fit that well within the existing design. What was once more than ample controls points becomes cumbersome as some features need to get buried.
Keeping the camera itself fairly low in overall features by nature of that fact keeps the interface relatively simple. It isn't bad design, it's a trade off, you have more stuff = need for more controls OR 'some' controls become more fiddly to access.
There is also the question of familiarity. I don't hear that much about how Photoshop has complex menus / interface because it's more feature laden than MS Paint.
The DPR writer was stating his opinion in the context of what he has observed and is used to. That is useful insight. You can disagree with it but it is still useful.
Personally, I believe that the M5 feature set (based on the 80D) is likely to be more than adequate for its likely intended use and really only lags significantly behind the A6300 in the 4k video department (and there are a lot of photographers that don't give a damn for 4K). In other areas, it matches or may even exceed the A6300 (I am very interested in the extension of DPAF for example).
Sometimes filling cameras up with every imaginable feature just adds cost and does nothing for utility. Sony has been criticised for some time for its user interface. Yes, familiarity helps but it doesn't always address the non-intuitive nature of the system.
It is good to see them making progress in this area with the A99II by all accounts. So perhaps the successor to the A6300 will be better in this regard.
Please complain about Hasselblad X1D and Fujifilm GFX50S not having 4k video. They dont. How comes $10,000 plus camera not having 4k video? What a shame! DOA!
The number 1 reason they don't have 4k is that they are designed to shoot stills. There is no need for video on these cameras at all. Medium format photographers are not videographers.
If your camera manufacturer includes a mode, it should work well.
No mass market camera manufacturer (save the Nikon DF?) has produced a photo only camera for quite some time now. This talk of a camera not being a video camera, being stills only etc, just hasn't been the real world for years.
I think a solid 1080P is better than a weak 4K attempt, but it will miss a potential market who demand 4K now.
Screen looks like a nice cell phone screen. Canon should think about ramping up processor specs and develop some apps/games for people to play on their cameras while not taking pics. This camera design is little eye candy. Not sure how it looks in real world. It is going to be a big hit with people who also want nice looking camera.
@NoMirror99: So everyone buys a Canon is part of the brainless masses or lemmings? What a shortsighted comment. Tell me why i would buy any Sony alpha or Fuji camera instead of the M5 for stills? (not interested in video much), especially if i already have Canon lenses which will work perfectly with the adapter?
@BlackCoffee: Ok, I apologize, I was over the top on that one. What I believe is, Canon is going to sell a boatload of M5s to the masses whom will forgive them for putting less than their best foot forward. But on the other hand, even though enthusiast like me will be envious of the M5s ease of use we will bite the bullet and go for a camera like the a6300 @ the same price, for its technical superiority. And in fact, I may have to buy an M5 myself to see if handling, and ease of use might win the day for the little shooting I get to do in my dotage. I don't do video either. Peace
I was actually talking about the A6300 when i mentioned Sony and i don't see any advantage of it over the M5 if we don't count video. But since i have the 7D2 i only used it for 5 minutes of video in total. But on the other hand i can pack it together with the 7D and share lenses with it and be confident in the compatibility.
Its not so cut and dry with other mirrorlesses. If those B&H reviews are to be believed that a6300 has some serious reliability issues with overheating and serice is a nightmare. An a6000 is perhaps a better bet but on comparing the a6000 to 80D on the iso invariance and DR tests it doen't actually look that great (the A6300 does but it also looks blurry which I imagine means a cooked raw). Then there's Fuji which has the whole oil painting effect and a higher price. That Olympus is suddenly looking better but is also pricey. So where is the direct competition to this? If Samsung was still in the game perhaps them but they aren't.
I hope the "lemming masses" buy boat loads of these cameras as that would be the biggest impedance for Canon to release many more lenses, features etc. for the EF-M mount!
Given that so many exciting gears are being released, the M5 just became less exciting, therefore it should be queued up for the full review after the others'.
The 5D Mark III has DIGIC 5+ and the 5D Mark IV has DIGIC 6+. I suspect that the + part means that they are specifically designed for full frame cameras.
@carey .. i have a feeling it has to do with development timelines.. powershots are developed and punted out the door sooner (the M5, like the M3 .. is a powershot, not an DSC) and the DSLR"s take more time to get through the processes.
this is my own pet theory, but it does seem to make sense.. every new digic has been out at least a year before it shows up in the DSC's.
Now if they'd only focus on creating more decent lens choices for their mirrorless system, it could really take off. As things stand Canon is miles behind the competition in this most important regard.
It looks like it might be a nice camera to use for Canon users, but as many other mirrorless users have commented before, "it's about time". It can only help all round for healthy competition, but for me, I am looking forward to the E-M1 Mk II.
1:00-1:10 "No 4K, no high frame rates. But it does the basics extremely well. Canon knows how to make a very pleasant to use camera." I can't emphasize this quote enough. Buying a camera from a spec sheet really misses out on the usability of and UI with the camera. I bought the A7R and A6000 and hated them both. The shutter shock on the A7R and the UI on both of the cameras was absolutely terrible. Shooting Nikon for 30 years then Canon for 6 years the Sonys were not intuitive to use at all. The Canons and especially my M3 are a joy to use as I expect the M5 will be. I don't have or plan to buy a 4K TV or monitor. Nor do I shoot video for slow motion. Why do I need 4K or high frame rates? I don't. I think this is the guy who built that boat and made a video of it? That was an outstanding video. As I was watching it on my 27" monitor, did I think, "Too bad it's not in 4K." or "I wish they would have done some slow motion in this video, it would have made it better." Nope
Well, if you are satisfied with the Canon M3, I really wonder what you are looking for in a camera.
Since the M3 was the worst mirrorless on the market. Slow camera, slow af, slow lenses and no evf (not build in). I agree that the a6000/6300 are fiddly. However, if you prefer a bad camera to a fiddly one, I just wonder what makes your brain tick. No insult intended but it makes me wonder.
I have an EOS M. I find the UI sucks. The steps you need to do focus magnification sucks. No focus peaking. What passes for a grip is a joke. It's more like a hand annoyance device. I certainly wouldn't say that Canon is the best when it comes to useability. They've made improvements to the EOS M line (at a glacial pace). But they still lag in too many areas. Still, I might pick up an M5 if it goes on firesale, like I did with my first M.
I like m y EOS-M UI much much better than my A6000 and PieterB I also often like using it most days much better than my A6000 (sports is the exception).
And T3, if you want focus peaking (and a whole lot more) you can put Magic Lantern on the EOS-M. Which alternative firmware do you prefer for the A6000?
Short story from the Sony Booth: I played with the A7R2 and wanted to use the focus magnifier. I didn't find it, so I asked a Sony assistant, who had no clue as well: "You can reassign it to a CN button, but I don't know where to find it in the menu. And please, don't reassign any buttons, because then I won't find any functions anymore and can't help out the people who use it after you." Well, at least he was honest..
@Masterwayne. That assistent must have been the biggest idiot in the world. No wait, the guy that hired the assistent must have been the biggest idiot in the world. It isn't that hard to set up.
Focus magnifier can be set to a button or activated automatically when you put the camera in MF mode. I have it on automatic and set to a button. I have MF/AF also set to a button.
In automatic AF mode it works as follows. You press the button, than you can move the cursor to a specific spot. Than you can press the shutter button which will trigger the AF module to af on the cross. Very precise and very fast. I once shot with a Canon 6D. I couldn't find anything. Does that make a bad camera? No it only meant that I didn't know the camera and didn't know how to change stuff. Don't judge anything because you don't know how that camera works.
Here is how it works. I shot on my mobile in my left hand while doing stuff with my right hand. It is a bit wobbly because I suck royally a multi tasking. Ahd the peaking is easy to see on the monitor but hard to see on the mobile phone. But you'll see how it works. The first bit is in AF mode, and then in MF mode. https://goo.gl/photos/qqKtmdejVVCgypqE7
PieterB, no worries. I won't completely judge a camera based on a 5 min hands on. But it shows a design principle: highly customizable body with plenty of buttons, but (nearly) none of them with fixed tasks. This makes it great for pros who work with their systems everyday. For me as a enthusiast (but with not only photography as a hobby), it might be more convenient to have a well thought-out, more "fixed" UI, so I directly see what I'm doing. This is obviously personal preference, and I can assure you, the first time I held a Canon Enthusiast body in my hands, I was quite overwhelmed as well.
@CanonM5fan, I couldn't agree more. My canon collection (over the years) is fairly large. About a year ago, I purchased the Sony a6000. I find the UI to be horrible, at best.
I don't care for 4K video either, and I don't want it actually, but high frame rate is important to me, and that's when I pick up one of my Canon DSLRs.
The a6000 high frame rate is terrible after one burst. It freezes until it is done saving to the card (although I'm using Sony's fast cards). Subsequent bursts get worse, and opportunities are lost. Trying to find what you want to adjust in the menus can be a good exercise and a test of your patience. But it is small, light weight, pleasant to shoot with (especially with my Canon FD lenses), as long as the horrible menu is not needed, and you are not trying to shoot fast action subjects that require multiple bursts!!!
I have no plans to get the M5. I'm happy with my Pana LF-1 for a pocket camera. I love this little camera.
Agreed Sony's specs are great but I'd rather just be able to get on and use a well sorted and reliable camera.
A long-time Canon user I fell for the A7r hype after using a NEX-6 (which was a very well sorted camera). After a few weeks I realised how flaky it was and that the NEX-6 viewfinder was better, that the large DR was compromised because it was too much biased to the Shadows leaving me with jpegs underexposed protect the highlights for RAW processing, and that I had to work much harder to get the colours the way I wanted them. After a few months I began to realise it was also a very fragile camera. I am now awaiting it's return from a second trip to Sony's UK repair centre in just over 2 years, upon which it shall be sold and a Canon re-acquired. I'll miss the EVF and the tilting screen but really, not much else.
I don't think you can use magic lantern in a sentence to say how great canon is, given it was specifically created (by others, not Canon) to unlock features the camera was capable of, but that canon were screwing you out of to protect their more expensive line of video cameras
@MasterWayne. It was not that I was overwhelmed, it found the camera the user interface completely vague. I also shot with a Nikon D300 which I also didn't know and I figured that one out in about a minute. I wanted to change the ISO on the Canon 6d but I couldn't find any button with which I could set it. I remember there was an ISO button but it didn't seem to work the way I supposed it should work. Then I wanted to change the autofocus and that also didn't seem to work like I suspected.
The Nikon was easy. All the dials and buttons seemed to work the way I guessed they would work.
Then I wanted to shoot the Canon 6d in a dim room and couldn't get any focus. In the end I shot my a6000 and the guy that owned the 6d and it turned out that all my pictures looked really better.
The owner didn't know his own camera so he couldn't set it up like I wanted.
My point is this. If you don't know how a camera works, they are all awful.
"That was an outstanding video. As I was watching it on my 27" monitor, did I think, "Too bad it's not in 4K." or "I wish they would have done some slow motion in this video, it would have made it better." Nope"
I saw some great photos; taken on a friends phone. Not once did I think, 'oh how much better would they be if shot with a DSLR or with RAW rather than jpegs.' That doesn't mean Professionals should not use RAW or DSLR's when taking Professional Photos. Same with 4K. Content is more important than tech I agree, but that is not the same thing as tech not being important.
No need for Canon to build a Sony killer since Sony is doing such a good job of killing itself. Just look at the a99-II. It was announced on Monday and DOA in the marketplace before Friday. :))
I don't know what Canon was thinking?? it just embarrassed itself by announcing this gimmick a few days before SONY & FUJIFILM announced THE BIG GUNS we all knew were coming. But this crowd wants a new toy with shoddy specs for the "me too, me too! :D" feels?? let em have it.
The A99II looks an absolute beast of a camera on paper and could be top of the pops come Xmas time if all these specifications stack up in real time usage.
I am really looking forward to the reviews. Of all the cameras released so far at Photokina, this one for me is the total eye-catcher (not really into medium format).
Tony Northrup did state in his Photokina video that the image quality might be lower than Canon (presumably the 5D4) and Nikon due to the requirements of the focussing system and questioned the use of SD cards particularly when shooting at 12FPS 42mb. Other than that he is pretty positive about the camera.
Its the first camera he talks about so you don't have to sit through the whole video!!
While the gear heads obsess over the a99-II's specs, which do look impressive on paper, I tend to take the approach that sales are far more important than specs. When it comes to preorders/sales, the a99-II sucks. It seems as though Sony can't even giveaway that camera at any price. Meanwhile, Canon's M5, 5D-IV, 5D-III, and even the original 7D are selling like crazy.
So I'll ask the Sony fans again, if the a99-II is as great as its specs would have us believe, then why aren't people voting for it with their pocketbooks with preorders? :))
That's like saying 1 movie is superior to another if it sells more cinema tickets; in which case Transformers 4 is a masterpiece!!!
Canon has a fine reputation for Photography that it trades on, and many consumers will buy based on brand name alone. That doesn't make its products better, just more popular and well known.
When it comes to buying a product that will serve my business, I am not looking at how popular it is, I'm looking at its specs and seeing if the camera has a place in my workflow. Sales will tell me how well the camera is marketed, how well known and supported the brand is - it doesn't tell me if the camera is any good for my own use. So specs for me is far more important than sales.
Unless of course one is into bragging and saying my camera brand is better than yours. In which case, sales are important.
That said, I'd no more choose Sony than I would Canon. Both have their flaws, despite offering some interesting products.
Looks pretty fantastic, and it has all of the features I need. I just hope the EVF and the AF are good. Those are the usual weak links in mirrorless cameras.
And that Canon Tumor it has for the hump will no doubt make the "photographers" look goofy being seen in public. I know I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
@Auricom, That hump is where the EVF and pop-up flash are. Lots of mirrorless cameras have it, not just Canon. Some YouTubers are telling people that the hump is purely esthetic, which is nonsense.
@Donnie: The M5 is 93rd on Amazons list, a99ii 13th. a99ii is killing the M5. I'm sorry, could you speak up, I didn't catch that? Did you say someone died?
My only disappointment (and I'm not sure it's entirely fair) is with the price. I want to get into a mirrorless system, but I can't really decide whether canon's is the ship to board.
I'm with you. It does look interesting but it's still a pretty basic camera. I think it's price will draw people away from it....and the lack of native lenses as well.
Make it 700-800$ and people would probably be more pleased with it.
Or, if you don't have a strong opinion on sensor size and don't want to spend a lot, look around in m43, some bodies are very reasonably priced and you can find affordable very good lenses as well.
QuikFrame, A lot of folks are looking at it from the perspective of how much can be crammed into a smaller body. But that is not the only issue and sometimes the more functions you have, the lower the reliability. I look at it this way: A MILC is less weight on my neck and less to carry. I don't have to worry about front or back focus and spend extra to get a body that can microadjust. If there aren't enough lenses in the native mount, are the ones I want available if I use the adapter. Will the sensor take sharp images with low noise and good colors? Will I get good customer service if I have a problem that requires repair. These things to me are important, but like you I also need to be able to afford it? Just sharing my thoughts. Yours may differ.
@Dr_Jon A camera doesn't need 20 million focus points to focus well. The 499 on-sensor phase detect points of the A6300 should be enough for most people.
Where the system shines is tracking in video especially where the subject moves from corner to corner. Unfortunately the video features of this camera are deficient in all other regards.
Any lens roadmap from Canon people? Buy this cam for $1000 and not have lenses really defeats the idea of ILC. And no thank you with adapters and EFS lenses. Buying a lens mount is buying a system not just bodies.
When Sony did it, it became fashionable to criticize their approach, with Canonites poo-pooing the lack of lenses. But now, of course, adapting is fine and great, and they don't even need native high-end optics, because Canon!
Always thought the 'haters gonna hate' slogan was just a way of people putting their head in the sand.
No-one hates this camera, people are just a bit peeved it's so late to market. Its spec is not cutting edge so there's no apparent reason for the delay.
I hope you buy it and get good use out of it, but I also hope Canon makes an effort to give their users a bit more, in terms of spec and EF-M lenses.
Lots of people hate everything Canon makes, a bit like lots of people hate X-Box, Playstation, PC, Mac, United, City... they just tend not to be likely purchasers. (Okay, so I did slip one thing that is okay to hate but non-photographic...)
Canon only recently sorted out the on sensor ADC which was causing all the noise in shadows and low ISO and even more noise from DPreview. Had Canon released this earlier there would have been 4 articles showing how it failed to match the Sony. Now that they've sorted it out they release it in an enthusiast camera. There really has been no delay.
DPReview aren't disappointed with the camera itself, they are disappointed that such a camera wasn't released two years ago. They seem to be liking the camera and have commented a few times now how it handles and operates so nicely - a pleasant little camera in your words.
Canon couldn't have released it two years ago. If it had DPreview would have nailed them for bad sensor performance. Dual pixel also needed a slight redesign for the shorter flange distance. When DP can't say something bad about a Canon they can always complain it should have been done earlier. Now how about Nikon? Where their mirrorless and what happened to the 1 series?
The more I see about M5, the more I like it. Not a record or trend setting beast in every respect but convincingly solid photographic tool designed to work extremely well within the Canon ecosystem of lenses and accessories. For this Canon DSLR user, EOS M5 seems to be about the perfect "take me everywhere" camera for now. Something, I was waiting since the first M. I'm convinced that sales success will promote further development of Canon's mirrorless line.
Obviously you put spec sheets way over ergonomy. There are a lot of people like me who are tired to pay insane prices for cameras with great spec sheets and lousy user interfaces. I will happily pay some extra to get the features I need in a camera actually supporting me to get the result I need.
But I agree when just going by the spec sheets the Canon could be a bit less expensive however that is totally disregarding its great user interface. The first run seems to get delivered with the EF adapter included in several markets. That at least is another 100 dollar value.
Chris2210, sounds to me like you want to own a M5, but you're disgruntled because you can't afford to buy it, which is ok. Just save up for one or buy what you can afford. Problem solved. :))
For those who can wait a few months, there will be rebates and price reductions. That's why saying $3500 for the 5D4 isn't realistic either, unless you insist on being first. If Nikon gave rebates as generous as Canon, I'd own a lot more Nikon.
The first adopters always pay more. It's called differential pricing. If you want to be first, you have to pay the most. And if you wait, you get a better price.
Canon's M5 is already proving to be a sales success as preorders are very strong for this handsome little ILC and for all the right reasons. Excellent design. Quality build. Easy to use. :))
Don't bash the camera just because it's out of your price range, Chris2210. Judging by the large number of preorders, there are plenty of people who disagree with your price/value assessment of the M5 and are willing to put their money where their mouths are. :))
"Out of my Price range"? No, in fact I've got a 5DII [which I now hardly use] as well as an EM1 [Mk1] a GH3 and a few others. It's simply out of what I'd consider based on its features - I think for example [notwithstanding that the high ISO performance of the M5 might [just might] be slightly better, the G80/5 is just a much, much better all round camera, at a far more sensible price level. [OK we neither of us probably know how these cameras actually perform, but there are indicators through precedents].
I found the time between taking the shoot and apearing on the display quite long. Did you experience the same perfomce or is it just me?
If you put on a Adapter to use an EF lense (since the choices of EF-M lenses are realy realy realy poor in my opinion) the entire Camera becomes quite big and heavy, even similar to an 80d. So in my personal opinion I think I would prefer a 80d as a second camera for travel. I like the viewfinder with the mirror much better, than the digital one on the m5. Just checked it: 80d 730g including battery, 5m 427g + maybe 100g for the adapter. I would realy cary this 200g more to get a MUCH better battery life and a much nicer and "faster" viewfinder. Anyway, it is a interesting camera, I just hope for a better ef-m selection of lenses.
I would love to see a mirrorless Canon Camera with a full-frame, 4k and native EF mount. This would be a realy great answer to sonys a7II.
What? The EOS M5 is nearly 1/2 the size of the 80D. How does adding a hollow aluminum tube that is just under 1 inch long make it nearly the same size as an 80D?
@67gtonr did you actualy hold it in your hand? The size is not "nearly 1/2". The adapter is also not as small as you think. Take a look at this comparison (Dr_jon, thanks for this great link) and you will see what I mean: http://j.mp/2csPDnq For me personaly the optical viewfinder is worth this little extra size.
I find it also interesting to see what Sony is able to produce: a FULL-FRAME (!) in a VERY similar sized body...
The video states that the M5 is "55% of the size of the 80D", you realize 50% equals 1/2? I have and use the EF to EF-M adapter so I know how light it is especially if you take off the tripod mount. It is .9 inches long!
I think this "55% of the size" is a rather rounded estimate. If you take them in comparison you see its not THAT much of a difference. I hold it in my hand at photokina and with the adapter it is just not that ultra ultra ultra handy and light. The Battery is also some more grams (and $) to add. The LP-E6 will last much longer in the 80d than the M5. So you will have to pack to another battery on longer trips. So afterall the size and weight difference to the 80d start to melt. Anyway, surely the M5 is a great and very reliable camera. It may be an option for me, if the perfomce will become a little faster. It just didn't feel as snapy as I would like it. But thats just my opinion ; )
The manual for the M5 isn't out yet and I haven't tested it personally on the other M's, but according to the manuals for the M10 & M3 you can so I wouldn't see why not.
I also would like to know video quality compared with 80d. I think 80d has best 1080p complemented with nice video AF. It is suppose to be reduced to 12bit mode in continuous shooting. How much does it affect DR and IQ. Hopefully we will see more comparisons with 14bit vs 12bit from DPR in actual review.
As an owner of Samsung nx500 that had very low bitrates (different codec but comparable to this) in initial firmware, here are my impressions 1. They are usable if there is not a lot of detail or movement in scene (courtesy of Captain Obvious) 2. Processor is surely capable of more, Samsung increased them a lot in latter versions and we hacked it as high as SD card would tolerate (more than double of improved bitrate easily) 3. 12 bit stills in continuous high speed (same on nx500 at 9fps) - you can hardly tell the difference. Really.
Yes, manufacturers sometimes restrict performance to differentiate their products. More likely though is a a heat dissipation issue. It is easy to forget: electronic circuits produce waste heat. Increase performance, increase heat.
Samsung nx500 has a default maximum 4k bitrate of 70Mbps and is limited to 15 minutes in 4k.
Three weeks ago I shot 48 minutes of 4k (UHD at 30fps) at 160Mbps (outdoor youth theatre production) in the sun (but not too hot, 28C max) and camera had no issues. Other people have gone for much longer with the same camera in hotter places with no issues as well. This camera also uses more demanding h265 codec.
Of course not every camera has heating issues. The Panasonic GM5 is an extreme example of one that can. When shot at its higher video specs it can heat enough to affect the sensor output. Let's ask the manufacturers about this. Or have our good friends at DPReview ask for us.
Quality doesn't necessarily go with bit-rate, I have a DSLR that only does quite low bitrate video but its 1080p is way cleaner than my GH3 and GH4 at higher bitrates.
Actually, I believe you can disable one side of the touchscreen while you use this feature, to prevent 'nose-focus.' And you can pick which side, depending on which eye you shoot with.
I was looking for some info about this camera been compatible with FD lenses, any idea if it will accept legacy glass, especially FD trough an adapter?
I you want to spend close to $1000 for a small, light camera (with small, surprisingly inexpensive lenses) and turn it into large, front-heavy camera, it's very easy to do. Of course Canon doesn't offer lots of M lenses but if you want a big system with lots to carry, they do have other options.
I have a couple of really nice FD lenses that I use for portraits and they works pretty well with my Samsung nx500, I guess one of the beauties of mirrorless is their capability to recycle old lenses and save some $$$.
Nice video, thanks! That's why I photograph with Canon. Maybe not the "high end features" of other brands but the whole system just works great, is reliable and easy to use.
Yep, Canon gear has a more refined, well thought out feel. And that translates to a smoother user experience. You can see their stuff is well-designed and not hurried together at the last minute.
My first impressions on focus with a Sigma 50-100mm 1.8 Art lens: Impressive! I rented the lens for the day and tried it on my 100D, the 80D and the M5. While OVF focusing with the 100D & 80D showed some inconsistencies, the liveview of the 80D and focus on the M5 in general were very precise. Speed was the same as with OVF focusing. Subjectively, focus on the M5 felt the most responsive, of all tests. On a sidenote, the light conditions at the Canon service point are quite bad. So most of my tests on the 80D and M5 would qualify as low-light-shots.
Thanks for the info. So it looks like almost any lens made for a Canon SLR will have acceptable AF performance. This is great to know. I was sure that STM SLR lenses would work well, but wasn't so sure about USM type lenses. I know the Sigma isn't a Canon USM, but I would guess if it can focus that lens quickly then a Canon USM lens would work at least as fast.
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