Sony still third globally but bullish about 2017 prospects

the article clearly stated: "It also predicts a compound annual growth rate of 27% in sales of ILC bodies and a similar figure in lenses, for 2017."

fyi, donnie g: sony knows a lot more about the camera market than you do ;-)

I find it funny when people express concern that Sony will "pull the plug prematurely". Here's some history on Sony "pulling the plug" on their products:

Sony didn't end cassette-based Walkman production until 2010, long after cassette audio tapes had declined from popularity. https://goo.gl/OOVkka

Sony didn't end Mini Disc player production until 2013, 20 years after MD was introduced and well after MD had faded from common use. (It wasn't even that popular during its peak!) https://goo.gl/JOfsGj

Sony didn't stop Betamax tape production until 2015, 28 years after losing the war to VHS. https://goo.gl/6ONqkL

Sony didn't end Betamax player/recorder production until 2002. https://goo.gl/13Lhh3

It's unlikely that Sony will pull the plug on their camera unit. They're doing fine. On Amazon's "Best Sellers in Interchangeable Cameras" rankings, Sony A6000 is ranked #8 in sales. It's only outsold by two other camera models, Rebel T6 and Nikon D3400. http://imgur.com/a/FNRHi

@osv,
Sony is doing the exact same thing that Canon is, which is trying to sell cameras in a down market. Both companies are refreshing their entire ILC product line this year. The difference between the two companies is that one is firmly established and can take a hit on growth if need be, while the other one isn't established as yet and can't stand anymore body punches to their sales without risking their legs (their investors) giving out on them.

If you had bothered to read my comments you would have seen that I think that Sony will make it through this rough patch, but they need strong performances from their newly introduced ILCs to pull it off. Although Canon is also hoping for strong sales from their new ILCs, they aren't in anywhere near as desperate a situation as Sony. If Canon fails, they can try again. Not so for Sony. For Sony, failure this time around means game over. 😎

@Donnie G - You're being absurd. Sony is doing fine.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-24/sony-surges-as-analysts-say-profit-may-reach-highest-since-1998
I don't think their investors are displeased. Besides, Sony is playing the long game in the camera market. This is a long-term investment for them. Sony doesn't dump things so easily. After all, Sony didn't even kill off Betamax after it was defeated. Sony didn't discontinue production of Betamax VCRs until 27 years after it was introduced, even though it was defeated by VHS more than two decades earlier.

T3: Sony still support the Vaio computers with software updates. And they keep the A mount users pretty happy. Not bad.

I can't see that they are doomed since they are just at 3, place in the camera marked. There still are a lot other players behind them, many doing well.

@Donnie, take your medication, dude.

@T3 - The camera business is not the sensor business.

There has been a business split up in developing and selling sensors FOR cameras and developing and selling cameras made by Sony themselves.

The latter is part of their consumer oriented business. The first is part of their BtoB OEM business as a component manufacturer.

The profit from their 'camerabusiness' comes mostly from the number of sensors they sell to other brands. Without these other brands Sony wouldn't be doing so well.

By looking at Sony's market share only 1 in 3 sensors made by Sony end up in a Sony camera. Canon still owns a near 45% of the market therewith approximately 2 in 3 sensors produced go in a Canon camera. You also seem to forget that Canon has dual pixel AF technology which is phase detect and faster then what Sony has to offer with their own on sensor phase detect AF.

In the end only 1 in 7 sensors made end up in a Sony camera.

@Fujica - You are making an error in only counting their sensor market share in their own cameras, ILCs, or stand-alone cameras in general. The reality is that ILC's and stand-alone cameras only make up a small slice of Sony's sensor business. Sony makes a huge amount off of smartphone sensors. Smartphones far outnumber stand-alone cameras. I'm sure you've seen these graphs:
https://goo.gl/vF6zka
https://goo.gl/zKbiqn

Sony supplies sensors to the iPhone. Sony reportedly made $20 for every iPhone 6 sold: https://goo.gl/NeF6h7 And 61 million iPhones were sold in a single quarter alone.

So I think it's a bit naive to say that, "The profit from their 'camerabusiness' comes mostly from the number of sensors they sell to other brands. Without these other brands Sony wouldn't be doing so well." I don't think Sony needs to really sell sensors to stand-alone cameras at all to be doing well! Stand-alone cameras now make up a tiny percentage of the market! ILCs are even smaller percentage!

The iPhone 7 uses Sony sensors. https://www.dpreview.com/news/3533076696/teardown-reveals-sony-image-sensors-in-iphone-7
As of January 2017, Apple had sold 78.3 million iPhone 7's. That's a lot of money for Sony! The number of stand-alone cameras being sold is paltry compared to the number of iPhones sold. In all of 2016, 8.2 million DSLRs were shipped, and 3.1 million MILCs were shipped:
https://goo.gl/niEYzX

So even without selling their sensors to other camera brands, Sony would be doing fine.

"Sony stands to make more money in the Camera business than the smartphone business". I imagine you mean actual smartphones (where Sony has no share) than smartphone sensors where sony is number 1, has 40% of the market and is making far more money from that than they'll ever make from cameras (its why they can put so much into R&D).

@melgross - Sony was making $20 off of every iPhone 6 sold.
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Sony-makes-20-every-time-an-iPhone-6-is-sold-is-by-far-the-largest-camera-sensor-supplier-in-the-world_id69012
Sony sensors are used in the iPhone 7. As of 2017, Apple had sold 78.3 million. It's probably past 100 million by now. (In comparison, only 8.2 million DSLRs were shipped, and 3.1 million MILCs were shipped in all of 2016.) But Sony sensors are also in a lot of other smartphones too! Samsung smartphones use Sony sensors too. http://bgr.com/2017/03/28/galaxy-s8-camera-features-sony-sensor/

Additionally, more smartphones are moving towards dual cameras, which require two sensors:
https://www.wired.com/2016/09/iphone-7-plus-camera/

Smartphone sensor sales are MORE than enough to make up for lower camera sales! Regardless, how many other camera companies even have this revenue stream of selling their sensors to others? I bet Nikon wishes they did.

@osv- Ricoh is a corp and Pentax is a brand of camera. Ricoh switched the former Pentax WG water proof camera over to a Ricoh brand camera and also make other Ricoh cameras. We think they've canceled the Pentax Q, so there are no longer any mirrorless Pentax cameras being made. I'm not sure where Pentax brand DSLR are sitting at this point. But the K1, 645Z , K70 and K3II have been good sellers, AFAIK.

@petroglyph- nothing you said there is relevant to the shrinking pentax market share, which has been a huge problem for many years... 8-10 years ago, pentax had at least 5% of the worldwide ilc market, and now they don't even register on the scale.

the fact that ricoh bought pentax hasn't changed that downward spiral any that i can see... i have a k10d, i know a bit about pentax, i think that you are right in that they ignore mirrorless, to their detriment.

OSV- Way to completely miss the point. Good job!

No other lens line have growed faster than the E mount, with a lot of Sony, Zeiss and third party offerings, covering almost everything from ultra wide to telephoto, primes and zoom lenses.

What is missing without the need of an adapter, is tilt & shift and long, bright telephoto lenses. With the A9 I think the holes in the long telephoto end will be filled pretty fast, maybe within this year.

except APS-c E mount ...evan EOS-m mount has had 4 or 5 lenses since the last sony which is coming up to 4 years ago

@dave8
Are you serious? In the extra two years that e-mount has been on the market over Canon m-mount sony has produced 35 lenses versus 8. 15 pro lenses versus none, 25 e-mount cameras, 8 or 9 e-mount video cameras and umpteen accessories.

E-mount is supplemented by at least 30 independent lenses including an all AF aps-c only and FF autofocus Zeiss range in Touit and Batis. The only autofocus lenses Zeiss makes outside of its Sony partnership.

What aps-c lens in e-mount are you missing?

"No lens line has grown faster than Sony". I think you need to qualify that with "in the last three years" because in the five years before that Panasonic, Olympus, Fuji and even Samsung where putting out way more lenses while everyone on the Sony forums where moaning about lenses and using adapted ones (I know I was there).

yes i am serious ...its a irrefutable fact the sony has not released a APS-C lens coming up for 4 years...now talking of of missing lenses in sony APS-C lineup if we discount the sub par lenses there is lots of holes ......like most of them ...i have had/have..and have had friends that had most of the original Sony NEX lenses ..they are all pretty average ..but they never been updated ..there are some good lenses like i find the sigma 30mm F2.8 VERY good for its price but when it comes to COMPACT lenses there is nothing the 18-55 kit lens i have to make sure i stop it down at the long end ..so other standard zooms ? photozone say this " the Zeiss 16-70mm f/4 OSS - which was a massive disappointment" and about the Zeiss F4 18-105 (which is big) " The weakest setting is at 105mm. The corners are soft at f/4 and the borders don't impress either here" both the pancake lenses are pants photozone on the 16mm " At max. aperture there is no border and corner resolution to speak of"

Also the more expensive lenses like the £800GBP Zeiss 24mm F1.8 is a very good lens ....however the canon 24mm F2.8 pancake will match it for sharpness i pay £99 delivered for a gray import ..the EF-m 22F2 is i little sharper at £225..(but the sony has better bokeh over the 22F2)..i am not saying every other manufacture all their lenses are all brilliant but there is a enough to pick through ...its the Sony APS_C lens choice that made me not upgrade my NEX travel cam to the A6000 ....i buy a second hand SL1/100d and and a new 24mm stm to tide me over for £500 saving over a zeiss 24-F1.8 alone

And yet, it seems that Canon has captured the no 1 mirrorless marketshare, and has increased that position a lot last year.

@dave8
If you look at the test results of the Sony lenses on Photozone they don't bear any relation to Klaus's conclusions. For example the Sony 16-70/4 recorded the following central resolution figures at f5.6

16mm - 3598
24mm -3581
40mm - 3501
70mm - 3462

These are extremely high and much better than any Canon aps-c zoom or M mount lens. For reference the FF 24-70/4L recorded

24mm - 2516
40mm - 2507
70mm - 2499

on the Canon 50D. The Sony resolution figures are actually in prime territory: the Canon 22/2 scored 3395 on the M3 and the Sigma 30/2.8 which you found good for the price: 3550 on 24mp. According to Klaus's own testing the Sony is sharper than both lenses.

It's fantastically sharp across the whole range, despite which he gives it 1.5 stars and can't stop moaning about it.

@Davev, all FE lenses are completely compatible on apsc. I feel and share your pain. I own both mounts. But be positive, the opposite would have been a nightmare, because apsc doesn't cover full frame.
We should only complain about fe lenses being heavier and larger than what could have.
You know what, mmmmh, it's ok. FE 55mm Zeiss, 20, 28, 35, 50 even new 85mm sony are still tinny on a6500.

Dave, I was only using the 24-70L because I couldn't find a directly comparable lens on Photozone. Thanks for the information on the D50 - I won't pretend to claim knowledge of it, but again I used it because Photozone doesn't have any Canon tests at higher pixel density. You can compare the Sony to Fuji's zooms if you want - it's still better.

The FF disadvantage on Aps-c is mostly theoretical, and is usually outweighed by using more of the optical centre of the glass and the fact that FF lenses are usually built to a higher standard from better materials. Of course this needn't be the case and the real issue is that Aps-c lenses DO need to be sharper than FF and that costs more than many aps-c users are willing to pay.

Contd.

Contd.

Anyway, back to the 16-70. Yes Photozone's figures for the extreme borders are bad - they are unusually bad, but Klaus is still not honest. He describes the central resolution as 'great if not outstanding' which is simply not true - it's beyond outstanding - it is exceptional - sharper than many primes. The border quality is also excellent.
The lens is only really weak at maximum aperture at 70mm, and in the corners where the lens has been prioritised for central resolution at portrait length. I'm sure you know all wide to telephoto zooms are essentially extended from one focal length and the 16-70 is clearly predominantly a wide-angle design.

Now the extreme borders: presumably we are talking of an image height of 11mm and above. If you look at the 16-70 MTFs (which are excellent - measured at 40lp/mm too) https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3538430#forum-post-52057017

Contd.

Contd.

you'll see that performance does fall off - but not by much. Zeiss is known to prioritise for resolution which never means even field sharpness at maximum aperture, and people need to understand this. Even so something is amiss. Lens Rentals had some issues accurately measuring Sony borders, but that might be only on FF. In any case they use an optical bench not software like Klaus and DXO.

I simply do not know enough about lens design to know what's up but speculation is cheap! The lens could have been designed to compensate for a sensor micro lenses that were changed, it may have been adversely affected by the OIS or some aspect of it, it may simply be that Photozone had a defective lens. What's not in doubt is that Photozone's review and rating hugely misrepresents the test findings.

Contd.

@roustabout66- the only post history you have here at dpr is in the off-topic forum, and now you've given us an article that's over two years old...

Where is your link to an article where the Sony CEO says cameras will be a profit driver for Sony going forward? If he has not changed his plan for Sony it remains the same

osv How long did Sony maintain their VAIO computer and cellphone divisions after they did not meet profit marks? I believe the sales for their standard ILC cameras have been so disappointing they folded them in with their Pro video cameras to hide the numbers a few years ago.

@rostabout66- you are posting unsubstantiated irrelevant nonsense about sony.

and don't ask us to disprove lies that you failed to prove in the first place.

@roustabout66- "Did you read what the CEO said?"

did YOU read what we said about your link being two years old? it's irrelevant, you are trolling.

not surprising, given your sock puppet post history to the off-topic forum, lol

@ roustabout66
Good luck with those statements, your obviously trolling.

IF Sony didn't want to be in the camera business for long WHY would they spend so much money on designing new lenses and new cameras ?

They have the FASTEST growing lens line up. Designing new lenses cannot be cheap considering no other camera manufacturer releases so many new lenses.

Your logic makes very little sense to me.

Sony mirrorless cameras have essentially nothing in common with Minolta cameras.

"Distant third place" might be something Nikon may have to deal with some day.

Every full frame MILC camera that Sony sells is one less DSLR sold by Canon, Nikon or Pentax.....

Marty: 'Nikon is doomed' seems to be a popular topic here nowadays - maybe wait a bit and see before predicting - they just might have a trick or two up their sleaves yet ;-)
Mirorrless is a curiosity bit not a serious threat to DSLR - It is mostly a market which used to attract the advanced P/S crowd - I have a MILC with pancake lens as a travel accessory - not as replacement for any DLSR.

Rubberdials: 'Half baked' is how I view your evidence of Sony 'superior' techology :-) Nothing you mentioned is in any way revolutionary or even 'better' than competing products - zero compelling technology to make a Canon or Nikon user want to change - the only way Sony will get higher sales is when they can convince users from other brands to switch - so far they have been unconvincing....

I didn't say Sony's technology was superior - that's your word. I was disputing your claim that Sony regard cameras as 'just another electronic consumer item' by showing how geared towards improving their cameras as photographic tools they are.

You won't agree but the current dominance of Nikon and Canon is down to marketing. Sony will continue to take market share until it reaches a tipping point.

I find it a bit surprising. I wonder if it is an issue for this particular camera or one that is common to all A9 units?

I do follow this guys youtube videos. He is a Sony supporter. I never seen him getting so angry. It's like he feels cheated. I hope DPR adds environmental test in their performance test criteria for the A9. If this thing is pitched as a replacement to the top dogs like 1D and 5D, it needs to pass the environmental test. Otherwise you going to get similar video like this cursing DPR.

Sorry but if you fall for this you really are stupid. The guy became a Nikon shooter a week ago. Here's the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IVXnRSyC3o

Who do you think sent him that nice shiny D500 and 70-200/2.8 eh?

@JohnnyFl

Of course he's lying. Did you watch the whole video? Where he pulls out the Nikon at the end and praises how it kept going and tells us how the A9 press conference was in the shade etc. ?! (The recent 16-35 launch was outside in Santa Barbara incidentally).

His acting is terrible. He can't even pretend to be interested in the A9 at the beginning. Where's the footage of the A9 locking up? And do you really think Sony would release a camera that overheated in 20minutes? The whole thing is laughable.

It does give us an indication of what's coming in terms of competition for the A9 - nothing. Black marketing.

@RubberDials

Yes now that I watched both vids closely I see your point. I also noticed that some people noticed it in the comments section also. Yep Black Marketing.

Maagix:

With this kind of thing, it's best to wait to see if others can readily recreate the problem.

There is something extremely fishy about this video. I normally find it laughable when people claim a negative experience about a camera is false, it always seems like desperation and denial but there's something about this guys demeanour that sets off alarm bells, he seems like he's acting. And unless I'm mistaken there's no footage of the camera actually locking up/shutting down?

Just look at all the views and comments he's getting. Nice ad revenue.

And I just noticed that a week ago he received a Nikon D500......

What I find more fishy are the comments related to this video :). He clearly showed the overheating symbol and clearly stated good things about the camera along with clearly explaining why seeing an overheating symbol causes doubt in the mind when shooting important events. Clearly you are missing the point or clearly you haven't watched the entire video or paid attention.

Now he has posted a third video explaining the first. There is still something suspect about the intent of his videos. If I had a problem like that I go directly to Sony first and not to youtube publicly asking Sony to contact me.....? I also recreate the situation ASAP to double check the camera. Not post a video of it shutting down after recording 4k vid the next day. Most 4k ILC cameras will eventually overheat or give you a warning given that time frame.

Racking up thousands of views on his channel on the " Sony A9 overheating" video, is a youtubers dream come true for gaining followers, and a huge win for his newly acquired D500 which he also mentions in the third video.

I will try to keep an open mind but the truth will be in the future reports coming in from pro shooters worldwide and not from this one kid on youtube.

Johnny, don't be silly. There is nothing suspect about giving an honest review. But honestly your constant defense of Sony is suspect. He's got proof right on the video, nothing is suspect about it.

There are more issues popping up about Sony's star camera too, in this article he mentions the overheating problem and more:

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/first-sony-a9-overheating-issue-report/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V086ihTlnoo

Another video showing it overheating indicator in 9 minutes indoors. And he addresses comments etc from first video.

Same guy.

@Carl, @ Johnny, @ fatdeeman

Carl, the other guys are very wise to be suspicious of this guy. I would go as far to say that it is almost OBVIOUS to a rational person that he is posting propaganda about this camera. He has earlier videos from 8th May where he discusses the possibility of the camera overheating before he even has it. Although it only forms a small part of his 1.5 hour video he makes sure the word 'overheating' is in the video title.

No one waiting to review the A9 posts three videos about overheating and nothing about the advanced features of the camera. If it did overheat, you might mention it and even make a separate video about it, after you'd confirmed and reproduced it, but where are the videos testing the camera and taking us through the extensive features?

If his bad acting and shaky grasp of the A9 specs wasn't bad enough he holds up the D500 and tells us 'it didn't break a sweat.' How is that relevant? It isn't even a mirrorless camera.

Continued.

The camera has been used by very good technical journalists and testers like Rishi and Carey here and Max Yureyev at a number of events, including outside in Santa Barbara and no-one had any trouble. One day on the market and a blogger with no professional transparency pops up and says it overheated after 20 minutes and that the battery was down 40% in 45 minutes?

Carey and Rishi have already commented on the battery life of the camera and how good it is in their Facebook video (worth watching). If they tell me it overheats then I believe it. Not him.

We'll see. Seems a hard conspiracy to have when you have proof of it on two separate videos.

I can't believe you're so gullible.

Well we will see in the coming weeks. If every single A9 purchased overheats within 20 minutes of limited use in mild weather then their is a serious a problem, but I seriously doubt thats going to happen, but thats just my "suspect" opinion.

In the meantime the guy posting on youtube has well over 35,000 views in two days with his two vids and has already discouraged perhaps thousands of potential Sony A9 buyers, good for him.

Maybe even Nikon will give him an additional D500 just for being honest.....Hmm

Wow the article is based on the same guy again. How ironic is that, please pay close attention to detail. that1camera guy just got a lot more attention and potential hits.

On the other Matthew Jarvis states "I no longer want to call this an overheating ‘issue’. My camera has not yet at any point overheated and I’ve been putting it through its paces in scenarios far more stressful than most real world shooting".

You need hundreds of similar complaints to really have an issue. I advise you Mr Garrad to move on to something else a little more solid. Weeping for you.

Carl, I'm not sure if you really are falling for this or just stoking the fires. If you believe it then you need to read up on black propaganda quickly. Here's a link to the Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_propaganda

There is no evidence. The propaganda works like this. I tell a lie about the camera. I say it overheats in mild weather after 20 minutes. People immediately relate that to another Sony camera that they had that overheated or that they read about and go 'Gee, I guess they still didn't fix that'.

Then someone posts a genuine overheating story - but the circumstances are different. This time the camera overheated in conditions that exceeded it's working spec. This reviewer is respected and a professional so he is taken seriously but the 'Gee guy' - let's call him Carl :) - goes 'Gee, there's another report - and this guy is a pro, so the first guy must've been telling the truth after all'. One genuine experience validates ten lies.

If canon is fully capable of creating a good mirrorless, why haven't they? Why are they selling bad mirrorless cameras?

It's like saying that canon could create sensors far better than sony but chooses just to do them as good as, and 8 years too late...

Revenant so what you're saying is that canon and nikon could eventually do it but just aren't trying. It's like me saying I can be the fastest runner in the world... but I'm just no trying...

Until they do it, you're just hoping they can....

Even if they stuck a 5DIV inside a mirrorless body, it would still not be enough to beat the A7RII...

Canon is heavily invested in their DSLRs system. They will milk it as far as they can. I am sure that they will pull out their ace when they will need. That is the good and the bad thing about Canon: it has full capability and delivers, however they will drag it out out as far as they can because of their huge market share of loyal customers. However here we have a situation, which I assume Canon is aware of, but there have been other companies that pushed it too far paying a big price for that. Sony is babysitting the young enthusiasts, who will be the future pros. Canon is not. If Sony gets traction there it might have a substantial impact not now but in the years to come with new generations trained on Sony gear that Canon will need to work had to convert. In other words things could flip around....

Nikon and Canon are sitting on the fence (still) because their is no clear path for them to take.

If they compete with Sony directly by introducing a FF mirrorless system they're giving up their high-ground position of DSLR 'superiority' and admitting that mirrorless is the future, something that also calls into question their understanding of the market since they have delayed so long. It's the same reason why they haven't implemented IBIS.

Creating a new FF system means new lenses and mount. M-mount may not be suitable because of pins and EF lens compatibility would be piecemeal going forward and technologically limiting.

Having to start over buying lenses means that your users could migrate to another brand, and no company wants to risk this.

Canon has immense video expertise - a prerequisite for mirrorless but it is still behind Sony in all mirrorless technologies. Nikon would probably need a technology partner or would need to buy in a lot.

Now you see what they've waited.

@RubberDials
mirrorless is the future. Only who is stuffing their head under ground do not see it coming. Canon has already committed to it with its dual pixel sensors. I bet that their mirrorless is coming out soon, in my opinion the conservative 5DIV specifications are intentional to leave room to a body above the 5D and below the 1DX.

Yeah that is right, Sony bought their position in the market, it couldn't possibly be because of their product meeting consumer demand right? Remember it is CONSUMERS that buy the cameras, not reviewers that make Sony's market share position what it is. So Sony's growth is down to the consumer liking what they are making, not by reviewers having a free hotel room. Got it?

I'd love to give you a serious reply, but the "Got it?" at the end caught me off guard. Makes you seem like a schoolyard bully.

@Bambi24 - It's really a reflection of where the news is, who's making the most developments, who's putting out new products, and getting the word out effectively, etc. The irony is that one way Canon came into dominance in the camera marketplace was through excellent product marketing. We all know that having a good product alone isn't enough to be successful. You also need really good marketing, which is what Canon was always really good at. That's how you get ahead and gain ground. Now, Sony is following Canon's playbook.

What's hilarious is that Nikon users used to say the same thing about Canon! "They just pay off reviewers with trips, pay Nikon users to switch, blah, blah, blah." The reality is that it's all aggressive marketing, and companies like Canon have been doing it for years.

T3 I am not sure I am allowed to post in the thread, HaHa, as I own and shoot both Canon and Sony (and occasionally 4x5 film). Just got my a6500 to upgrade my NEX and love the tech, especially the EVF and silent shooting. But still use my 6D and it's pile of lenses. I choose to go with Canon back in the day because their lenses were half the price of Nikon and just as good. So i think Canon needs to work on the tech, though trading highlight clipping for opening up shadows has never impressed me, other Sony qualities are very valuable and Sony just needs to add a lot to their lens selection to compete with Canikon.

@peter zuehlke - I use Canon DSLR and Sony mirrorless too. I have an A6000. For me, I feel like Sony's lens selection has more than enough to cover my needs. I can't think of any lens that the Sony system current lacks that I need. I don't use super telephoto primes. But I'm sure those are coming. I doubt Sony is ever going to bring out any tilt-shift lenses any time soon, but I already have the Canon 24 TS-E and 45 TS-E that I can use on my Sony body via an adapter. I like being able to adapt lenses to Sony bodies. It may not be something I do for every lens, but it adds an extra degree of flexibility.

I think Bambi24 needs to be banned from Dpreview, atleast until she gets her meds.

Canon and Nikon are selling more than anyone else because it is what the majority not minority wants. They, like Toyota and Honda, design for the majority. Everyone is free to buy what they want. Ultimately the consumer decides the best practical product.
Criticism between products is nothing new. Audi owners like to criticize BMW, etc.

Apart from long focal length primes, what else do you want in terms lenses? Take a look at the breadth of product available in the FE Mount format right now, in someways we are spoiled for choice! Check http://femount.com you may be surprised.

@T3 There are currently two shift lenses for Sony FE Mount, check this link: https://femount.com/tag/shift-lenses/

@SELEES
I am pretty sure that if editors wouldn't be treated like kings and being put in 5 stars hotels with great food and free drinks and cameras, then they wouldn't be writing about these Sony cameras. imho the operation of Sony cameras always sucked

All of the scenarios are setups and situations of which the manufacturer know the camera will perform. So they will be reviewed well. It doesn't tell anything about real life situations.

Eg. NONE of the reviewers of the A9 have been professional sports photographers for example. They couldn't use flash, because it is an impossibilty of current electronic shutter. These reviewers are fooled and the consumers is tricked of what this system really can do.

Without the free advertising, preview, review, showcases, comparisons and hand ons, all indirectly paid for by Sony then there would be no writing and no 'demand' from the end user either

You are a fool to believe that you aren't influenced of by what editors write about cameras.

T3:

There is much to commend the A9, and yes I've tried it.

However, it's still not serious competition for the D5 or 1DXII.

Of course it's a better video camera, and it's smaller and quieter, even in fully mechanical shutter mode, so it has strengths the pro Canikon bodies don't.

@HowaboutRAW - But there's no question that as a first attempt at a pro sports body, the A9 is extremely impressive. Not a bad first try, to say the least. And with how quickly Sony iterates, I think they will be a company to contend with. It's also helpful that it costs a lot less than the 1DXII and D5. Besides, there are a lot of pros who don't necessarily want the size and bulk of a 1DXII or D5. Up until now, you really had no choice but to "like" the size and weight of these flagship DSLRs.
I always thought it was a fallacy to say, "All pros love big, heavy cameras"-- when that's all you really offer them. It'll be interesting to see what those attitudes are a few years from now, with some new choices in the marketplace.

"i see one troll, doing all of the trash talking here, lol...he has many sock puppet accounts, including bambi24, labd, fun4all, Siobhan A, papillon_65, etc... "

I'd love to see you explain that to a mod here, considering I have one single account here and have not the slightest clue who those other people are. At the very least you owe me an apology for those accusations. None of those accounts are mine except this one, ask a mod if you want.

@HowaboutRAW - That's what iteration and feedback is for. I think people forget that the A7 bodies have been around for only a few short years. People act like these Sony mirrorless cameras have been around for decades, unchanged! LOL. Besides, "too small, too boxy" is a matter of taste. I've said that if you like big, thick, bulky, rounded bodies, get a DSLR! That's what's great about having choice in the marketplace. The last thing I want is for every camera to be the same shape, size, and form. Everyone has different tastes and preferences. And I'm glad different companies do things differently. Other people have a "you must conform" kind of attitude. Meh, it's not my thing, and I like having variety in the marketplace.

@howaboutRAW, have you actually held an A9? How about with a battery grip? Size of the camera body is a 100% a non issue considering you can make Sony cameras larger, but you can't make Can/Nik cameras any smaller. Also, changing batteries while the camera is still on the tripod? How important is that really when you can take 4000+ pictures on one battery, and double that with a the battery grip? Another non issue.

HowaboutRAW the tripod problem depends on the head you're using. I use an A7 and I can change batteries with the camera on a tripod.

You'll have the same problem with a 1DX depending on what tripod you're using and how the camera is positioned. And with the grip on the A9, the battery is in the same position as the 1Dx.

If you're used to professional equipment, you know what an L bracket is and how it can block the battery with a normal tripod if you have the camera in portrait orientation.
And the A9 with the grip, the battery slot is in the same position as the 1D.

If you are shooing an event and think that you wont have 15 seconds free during taking 4000 pictures to change battery, use the battery grip. It's a COMPLETE non issue that you are pulling out of your rear end.

HowaboutRAW Magazines and newspapers are portrait orientation. Normally a camera is tilted to the left of the photographer. When you have to take the battery out on a 1D, even if you're not using a L bracket, you still have the tripod legs.

@howabout raw what in the actual hell are you talking about? Care to explain that statement? You are the one who lack familiarity with the A9's battery grip which loads its 2 batteries from the side, not the bottom. Stop posting uninformed opinions on things are are easily proven false.

Ignoring the fact that your complaint about the battery door is a non issue because of the battery grip huh? If you have to make this many disclaimers about specific, entirely avoidable and unimportant "usability issues", you might want to stop and think if you are the only one with issues.

I guess you are actually better off making general statements with no information in them seeing as all of your original complaints turned out to be fud.

@HowaboutRAW - the solution for you is quite simple: stick to DSLRs! That's it! End of story. It's not as if DSLRs are going to go away any time soon. It's just like record players and vinyl. Even in our digital media world, there is still a niche market for turntables and vinyl records.

HowaboutRAW I've got an A7 and I don't have to remove it from the tripod to change batteries... The door is far away from the tripod head enough for me to be able to remove it. I have more problems using the battery pack on the grip that slides to the side, like the 1D...

And if that's a problem that makes the A9 not a pro camera, what would you say to the 5DSR, that is a studio camera, made to be shot on a tripod, and has the battery compartment just like the A9? An amateur camera?

The entire argument for needing more than 2 camera companies is so that it's HARDER TO PRICE FIX. You know that Canon is Japanese too right? And Nikon.... and Fuji... should I go on? You need to be medicated.

@Everythingis1 - haha, well said! :)

@ Bambi24 - your price fixing stats are out of context. These companies were also fined by the EU: EC as Philips, Lite-On, their joint venture Philips & Lite-On Digital Solutions, Hitachi Data Storage, Toshiba, Samsung Storage Technology, Sony Optiarc and Quanta Storage Toshiba and Samsung's joint ODD venture, LG Data Storage, and Quanta Storage independent.

So pretty much everyone.

Hey Bambi24, Guess what? Nikon and Canon are Japanese too....just saying.

Nikon was fined CHF 12.5 million ($13.25 million) for "restricting parallel imports": https://nikonrumors.com/2011/12/15/more-bad-news-nikon-switzerland-fined-13-25-million-for-restricting-parallel-imports.aspx/

Yet another industry has run afoul of China's antitrust laws... Nikon's fine was under $300,000: https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/06/03/will-chinas-price-gouging-accusations-have-any-imp.aspx

Battery Consumers Seek Canon Sales Info In Price-Fix MDL https://www.law360.com/articles/826595/battery-consumers-seek-canon-sales-info-in-price-fix-mdl

Chinese government fines Canon over Toshiba Medical deal https://www.dotmed.com/news/story/34669

People complain of Sony price fixing, but when a non-Japan company (Samsung) comes out with lower priced and higher spec'd NX1 camera, no one buys it. HUMMMMMM.......

Ofcourse they never said they would achieve that goal in one year (2007). So if they grow to 20% in 2020, they will have.

> claim they would be, or wanted to be #2 by 2007?

Where did that "2007" come from? Links?

I do remember interviews in which Sony reps said their goal was to become #2 in camera business, and so far, as far as I can see, they are going to succeed in not-so-distant future.

If they ever claimed achieving their goal in 2007, that would be mentioned in *every* Sony-related thread here on DPR. But, alas, your... err, "fake news" is the first that I'm aware of.

You're essentially fighting a straw man.

Just for the record: I just think that competition is good; I'd much prefer three strong front-runners rather than two, and cannot care less in what order they are stacked.

@virtualreality - I don't see anything that says "by 2007." I also don't think there's anything wrong with any person or any company setting ambitious goals for themselves. Not every Olympian wins the gold medal. But we still respect them for trying. Plus, I don't see anything wrong with falling short of goals, then shifting your goals based on changes in the environment, in technology, in opportunities. Back then, the only ILC market was the DSLR market. Sony was smart to go into a new market for themselves that has greater future potential: the mirrorless market. In the long run, I think this will be a far more effective strategy for them than the DSLR market.

Smart companies need to be agile. If one thing doesn't work, try another. Apple never took over the PC market, but they switched gears and took over the mobile market. You don't want to be the big tanker ship that is slow to change course.

Didn't they established their dominance half a century before Sony was even in the camera game?

@CE3

You must have forgotten that Sony bought Minolta to gain knowledge of the market and how to produce a camera.

Basically your Sony is a Minolta and therefore they have been around for more then fifty years.

@linzdoctor - Disregard for the a-mount? have you seen the a99II?

and since sony many companies release lenses for the a-mount, and it was reasonably fleshed out to begin with (and all still available) that comment makes no sense.

People should remember that it didn't happen overnight. Sony is where Canon was back in the late 1980s/early 1990s when they first introduced their EOS system. I think Sony is definitely on pace with where Canon was back then.

"You must have forgotten that Sony bought Minolta to gain knowledge of the market and how to produce a camera.

Basically your Sony is a Minolta and therefore they have been around for more then fifty years."

Ok, fair enough. Sony acquired Konica Minolta in 2006, and over the past 11 years they've grown their imaging division considerably.

lol'ing at sony on pace with canon back in the 1980's.

that's so wrong. within 4 years canon went from #3 to #1.

Sony's has been saying they'll be number two since 2006.

@rrccad - There have been two stages for Sony, the first being DSLRs which they obviously could not complete with Canon/Nikon's entrenched status. But Sony has since switched their focus on mirrorless, which is what I am referring two. The Sony FF mirrorless system is less than 5 years ago. Most of their key lenses (16-35/2.8, 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8) were only introduced in the last year. I see Sony's mirrorless system as being the equivalent of Canon introducing EOS in 1987-- something relatively revolutionary compared to the status quo which has drawn considerable attention and has the potential to really shake up the industry. Plus, the other aspect that people ignore is Sony's strength in sensor technology, which will be increasingly important in an increasingly mirrorless camera world.

sony's been doing the FE mount for 3.5 years, in that time canon went from #3 to #1.

you're still off.. keep grasping at straws.

they are not now the equivalent of Canon in 1987, only a raging moron would ignore 3.5 years of development.

after 3.5 years which would have been early 1990's canon was already dominant in the market.

Sony's been claiming that they'll be number two since 2006, and it's been almost 4 years since they completely dumped the A mount, and they still are 1% over what they were back in 2012 when they started the FE mount.

Like canon indeed. LOL.

@rrccad - "sony's been doing the FE mount for 3.5 years, in that time canon went from #3 to #1."

LOL, no, Canon EOS definitely did not go to #1 in 3.5 years! It took them that long just to overcome the bad feelings they generated from abandoning their FD system! You also have to remember that there was a lot of consumer confusion because even after Canon released EOS in 1987, they still continued development of their FD system, even releasing the FD-mount Canon T60 in 1990! It was a confusing time for consumers with regard to Canon. They didn't know if Canon could be trusted, and Canon was presenting them with two COMPLETELY incompatible camera systems: FD and EOS. In terms of new EOS sales, those were pretty low in those first few years. You have to remember the distrust, "betrayal" factor, and they were presenting the world with new, untested, untrusted EOS technology. Canon fans today forget (or may not realize) that there was a LOT of anger and antipathy towards Canon at the time!

@davev8 - Tesla has low marketshare but they are doing just fine.

@rrccad - No, they introduced EOS 1, but that did not mean the entire market jumped to Canon. Just like today, switching is a big deal, and pros heavily invested in a particular system don't just all jump ship overnight. As for the consumer market, their needs were more modest, and it wasn't like they all jumped over to Canon either. Plus, Nikon had the better reputation at the time. And Nikon users were very loyal to their brand. And Nikon certainly wasn't sitting on their thumbs either. Nikon had their own great AF SLRs. Nikon were doing fine. And since 1988, Nikon had had the Nikon F4, F4S, F4 Press, F4E for pros, which dominated the pro ranks. It's not as if Canon introduced the EOS 1 and hoards of loyal Nikon user dumped their Nikon gear to move to Canon suddenly! It's a Canon fanboy's revisionist dream, but it wasn't reality, sorry to say. No, that did not happen at all. Peeling away loyal Nikon users was a gradual process. As with most things, market changes take some time.

@linzdoctor7d - "By not dissing and ignoring part of there product line like Sony! Almost total disregard for A-mount will do that! Canon and Nikon would have never done that!"

Are you familiar with what Canon did with their popular FD system product line? They killed it off when they moved to EOS, with virtually no backwards compatibility, leaving all of their FD users abandoned. Sony, on the other hand, introduced the A99II least year, and offers an A-mount-to-E-mount adapter so that these lenses can be used on mirrorless bodies. That really wasn't a viable option for Canon, since the EOS/EF-mount had a longer flange distance than the FD-mount.

As for Nikon, most of Nikon's bodies today have abandoned in-body focus motors that are necessary for autofocusing Nikon's prior screw-drive AF lenses. (These lenses don't have AF motors inside.)

Times change, technology changes. Canon and Nikon have both abandoned, dissed, ignored part of their product lines, in far worse ways than Sony.

"Ok, fair enough. Sony acquired Konica Minolta in 2006, and over the past 11 years they've grown their imaging division considerably."

But Sony really hasn't grown their market share considerably over the past 11 years. They've basically hovered between 10-15% of the ILC market the entire time, but with E-mount bodies slowly replacing A-mount.

Hippo, when people talk about Sony's "ergonomic mess", they're talking about the e mount series of cameras. Rightly or wrongly, its these cameras that get most of the press and attention. The A mount cameras get much less attention, which is unfortunate. I think alot of us still think of E mount as "sony", and the A mount as "minolta".

Did you expect the launch of the A9 should pay back even before the camera is on the marked?

Having marked shares also is about which part of the marked you dominate. At least they are making profit, so that they can produce new more competitive cameras in the future.

If you're press and you attend a press event that doesn't automatically make you a sellout. A free flight and a hotel isn't going to stop any reputable reviewer (including YouTube channels like thecamerastoretv and Tony & Chelsea) from being upfront and honest with their audience about the things they don't like about Sony's products. The proof is in their actual reviews and the user reviews that follow after release, which often find similar pros and cons.

Kudos to sony for doing something that works even if that includes buying people.

"If you're press and you attend a press event that doesn't automatically make you a sellout"

It does, you're going to fancy hotels, fancy environments. I've read Sony paying for the airplane tickets.

You're shooting in lighting conditions set up by Sony. You're shooting with Sony lenses that were hand-picked by Sony. It's a joke.

Also, I don't dislike Sony in particular, their Playstation and multimedia division is great. However, I strongly dislike their photography division (completely separate and unrelated to their playstation division). You can not buy your way to sales by buying out youtubers, people have clearly caught on to what they are doing.

It's not a joke, it's just a company promoting their products and finding ways to best showcase them to the press. Indoor scenes with models for a studio setup, outdoor sports setups for action, or maybe a nightclub for lowlight performance are all real world shooting scenarios. The cameras still run into problems in many of these environments, and we know this because many of the good reviewers (that you think have been bought out) tell us.

Once again, getting your flight and hotel paid for so that you can travel to a location to do your job does not inherently make you a sellout.

@HOtorino "make a conventional DSLR with a moderate price tag" would be a game changer? That's what 85% of the market already is; what a silly statement.

LOL. The mirror blocks negligible amounts of light, especially considering the added performance of the sensor. Why not a conventional DSLR? How about full time live view and AF.

Another anti Sony buffoon repeating the same old dribble that every press writer repeats from the others....I have 3 Sony cameras and have zero trouble ergonomically, nor with their menu system...yes the same menu system everyone repeats is a mess.

The reality is, they are different in layout perhaps to Nikon/Canon (of which I have owned both) but the menu I use once on each camera, get them set how I want, and rarely ever go in there again, why?

Because all Sony cameras have the FN button on the back which takes you to your 10 most used features OF YOUR CHOOSING from the menu, it could not be easier.

But it is certainly easier to not mention that in reviews and agree with the last idiot who made the same stupid claim....christ people are dumb!

@SELEES The gripes about the menus always confused me to no end. My Sony cameras have been the most customizable cameras I've ever owned!

@SELEES
I gladly see someone else beside me thinking that the A7 series ergonomics are not bad at all. Does it have quirks? Yes it does, but it has a highly customizable interface and at the end of the day I prefer it over my 1DX. I think that many disliking it they both 1) have had no patience in understanding the camera and making the desirable customizations 2) try to use like their Canon or Nikon: A7 and A9 are designed to be used differently from a DSLR do not try to use them like one.
For instance, the excellent and super large EVF (real time exposure feedback, I have Zebra on all the time) combined with manual exposure, auto ISO, and the big, comfortably placed exposure dial compensation are brilliant and make me feel shooting with a prehistoric brick when I pick up my 1DX....

@ Everythingis1
Totally agree with you here. The FN button on the back of all three of my Sony's is a god send, makes using the camera a breeze. I can only imagine how much the engineers at Sony must shake their heads in disbelief every time some buffoon makes another stupid claim about their menu system and the difficulty in using the camera.

You have a reference for your rating?

Things change quickly when revolutionary technology arrives:
2010: Nokia 35%, Apple 15%, Samsung 8%
2012: Nokia 5%, Apple 20%, Samsung 30%

The DSLR order is as I remember it. Here are figures from 2006
Worldwide Digital SLR Market Share by Unit Sales
Vendor 2006
========================================
Canon 42%
Nikon 34%
Sony 10%
Pentax + Samsung 9%
Olympus + Panasonic 5%

How many times we need to see this Nokia comparison?
It's not even remotely accurate. A phone is one single piece, a camera is a system when lenses and other things play a bigger role than the camera itself.

Spot on Fujica, that was my exact thought when I read the news they are still globally 3rd place. I remember Sony being bullish about "next year" with their DSLR sales too. And look at it now.

I live in London to and A6000 are all over the place.

I visited Prague recently. Saw many people with Nikon DSLRs, mostly Dxxxx models, and noticed a couple of Canons as well, besides smartphones. Did not notice a single Sony.

in malaysia, it's all canon dslrs. people look down at my mirrorless and fast prime lens, but they mostly shoot with a slow kit lens in Auto mode.

"what ? your lens can't be zoomed? how outdated!"

@User9... Nikon and Canon had a virtual duopoly during the DSLR boom years so there are very large numbers of them in the wild. It will be many years before Sony's increasing share of a much smaller market affects the perceived relative abundance. The high visibility of Canon and Nikon in the wild is no indication of the current state of the market.

Irrespective of actual market share it can't be denied that Sony has greatly increased its mindshare in the photographic community. There can't be a photographer who doesn't know about Sony products. Sony is now a choice to be considered, even if not actually chosen. This wasn't true a few years ago. It will be interesting to see how Canon and Nikon respond.

I saw them at each tourist spot I've been at in Italy and Germany during the last 2 years. Even more a6000 than A7 Series though.

The reason you don't see Sony's out in the wild is because their users are busy fighting on dpr or waiting for the next a×××× to come out, rather than actually getting out taking photographs.

Pentax is irrelevant in this industry at this point, outside of a few "Pentaxians". I use Pentax and not happy, as of late, with the lies, lack of development of lenses, firmware, AF problems, and company shills on this forum and others spamming every critical discussion. If only Ricoh put the money they spend on employees posting in every forum and comment section and hurling abuse into the AF and fixing the firmware, maybe Pentax wouldn't be going away soon.

Good to see you keeping Pentax relevant on every thread.

Thanks for showing how out of reality Pentax zealots are and how they form their own realities around Pentax. Truly a brand for the 12 mentally-ill fans remaining.

Pentax was done the day they said have they have no interest in ff.

What's specifically wrong with Sony's pricing at least compared to the competition?

A7rii can be had now for the same as the D810 and both are much cheaper than the 5DSR or 5D IV

A9 is $2000 less than the Nikon 5D and $500 less than Canon 1DX II.
A6500 is the same as Fuji X-T2

Lenses when comparing apples to apples are all around the same price with some being higher and lower from brand to brand.

Will the A9 be much cheaper once you add a grip and extra batteries so it equates to D5 1D?

Why doesn't it count? Its a new A7rii. Living in Asia, I buy all of my Camera equipment and computers this way and I've saved thousands of dollars and haven't had an issue yet with anything that would be covered under the warranty. I find that if there is a defect it will often show itself within the 1st 30 days in which case they can be returned.

Btw, the only ads I'm seeing for that price on Amazon include a bundle of extras.

Plain and simple, if you do a little bit of research, you can get both of these cameras for the same price.

The A7rii is $2,898 body only shipped and sold by Amazon right now on Amazon.com in the U.S. Not sure what you're viewing.

Only retail counts because there has to be some common denominator. I've bought many international versions of items as well but these prices can't realistically be used in a discussion of the current price.

After a bit of searching I'm finding the D810 to be about $400 less than the A7Rii everywhere new, used, or discounted.

I'm also finding the two cameras at the same price, $2200, on eBay.

I am a long time Sony shooter. To be honest the menus are very convoluted BUT after a few months of shooting you configure the cameras very much in tune with your shooting needs and you get used to it.

Its a problem with people who have multiple camera systems but honestly for me at least its a non issue once you have learned what you need to change and whats plain extra.

I agree that menus are mostly a non-issue once you've learned their layout, and have the camera configured the way you want it. But control placement, handling and ergonomics are very different.

For me, it's not just about the resulting images, it's also about the act of taking the images. If I don't enjoy using a camera, because I feel that it's working against me, or is simply uncomfortable to hold, then it doesn't matter how great images it produces; I'm just not enjoying myself.

@jefftan
You think Nikon and Canon will both drop FF mirrorless cameras next year? I have my doubts.

They will have to do something but it's hard too see how they can compete as they are technically far behind at the moment.

Canon in general never does anything that affects the profit of other systems. They will hold back on videofeatures. Of course, the could do 4k in a modern codec, but they won't but they'd rather sell you a real video camera.

Canon is incremental. They'll come out with a FF mirrorless when they can see how to build it with parts already in stock. The on-sensor dual-pixel PDAF is a big step in that direction, making viable AF possible... but at 5D IV prices, it isn't cheap. Nikon, well, they could basically sell a rebranded Sony... but then they'd be going head-to-head with the company that supplies the key tech; Nikon has done much better sticking to camera formats Sony doesn't compete in.

I am pretty sure, that Canon will introduce a full frame MILC based on the EF mount. There is some strong evidence IMO. Canon obviously has had it's dual pixel AF tech in mind quite some time now, when designing lenses. Even soffisticated AF features like AF speed adjustment in movie mode are fully compatible with all USM und STM lenses as of 2009.

Excerpt from the 80D manual: "Lenses supporting slow focus transition during movie shooting.
USM lenses released in and after 2009 (for example, the EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM) and STM lenses (for example, the EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS STM) support slow focus transition during movie
shooting."

I had the Sony and Canon system, but I really didn't like using my Canon glasses with the Sony bodies. I have the metabone and Sigma adopters, but they don't work that well with the lenses. I kept my sports Canon equipment and sold my other Canon glasses and got native Sony G and GM glasses. I almost got the Canon 5DM4 and kept both systems but decided on the Nikon system since they have a better sensor (Sony sensor). I picked up the D750 with the 24-120 F4 for a great price and loving it right now. I love the EVF on the Sony, but just don't like to wait for it to wake up all the time... I'm back to the OVF and love the quick response of the camera! I'm using slow shooting high iq work with my Sony a7rii and plan to use the Nikon D750 for quick shooting travel pictures. Sounds backwards, but I just don't like using the Sony while traveling b/c of the slow response... It's just my personal experience.