This dummy CFast 2.0 adapter lets you use MSATA SSDs in place of CFast 2.0 cards

What would be even better would be if someone could devise a product that connects to the USB port and can act as a backup. (Not talking about tethering to a laptop) but where it could see the USB device as additional storage. I think that would put some people's minds at ease, especially those shooting bodies with only a single card slot.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

User9180204109

The BMPCC4K already does this with a USB-C port next to the HDMI port on the side of the camera. I use external Samsung T5 SSDs to record video onto, which can then be connected directly to a computer for editing in DaVinciResolve. Simple, convenient, elegant. There is even a compact adaptor to hold the T5 SSD attached to the SmallRig cage for the BMPCC4K.

Mar 22, 2021permalink

OK I'm sure it does, but I'm talking about those who want to just have a backup for recording stills (say they have a Gen 1 Z body with a single card slot). I'm sure all the recorders have some sort of way of dumping the video to an external storage device, and obviously, tethering the camera with some software will also save to the camera and store a copy on the connected computer (LR for whatever reason, doesn't do this--it only stores a copy to the computer but not on the card in the camera).

Mar 22, 2021permalink

User9180204109

Though I haven't tried it, what about a wifi connection between your camera and an iPhone or iPad so you can set up automatic download of image files while still keeping the set stored on an SDHX card or similar in the camera? I believe this is possible for some cameras, though as noted, it is not something I have tried. You might need serious sized memory on your phone or iPad though, especially if recording to RAW. I doubt it would be practical for video though, especially if recorded at high bit rate.

Apr 7, 2021permalink

I've tried this with SnapBridge. The only problem is if you want to download the RAWs it is very slow (at least when I tried it). My Z7 is set to RAW uncompressed so RAWs are about 90MB each. Plus this would further kill battery life on a camera that's already got bad battery life to begin with...

I guess since the Z gen 2's have the second card slot, a need for such device (For me at least) isn't that big of a deal as I now can have a backup copy of my stuff at the time of capture. For gen 1 users, something like this might be useful, but I'd be concerned about reliability and corruption of files during transfer to the SSD.

Apr 8, 2021*permalink

Fab-BZH

A quite good idea, but I doubt about the card-door gasket when used too often with this thin cable that compress the gasket...
If the gasket is damaged, water and dust could enter the body, while you were confident with your gear's water resistance...

Mar 19, 2021permalink

I wish someone would come up with an XQD to SD or CFE to SD adapter (last I looked, there wasn't any, but this was a few months ago). As much as I don't like adapters, I've never had one fail in a camera (only a computer) and carrying a spare is usually a simple "fix" for when you have an issue with an adapter.

It's just CFE and XQD cards are expensive, and I have about 2 dozen SD cards sitting around that I could use if only I had an adapter of some sort to use them in my Z camera. (Part of this is during my travels, I use the XQD cards as my third backup, so I try not to reformat them unless I run out of empty cards).

Mar 19, 2021*permalink

Darek M

I've forgotten my one and only XQD card a lot of time, mostly because I leave it inside the adapter to transfer files.

With an adapter like this, I could buy a few, have one in my car, or my camera bag, and if I do forget an XQD card, I can pop in any one of my dozen SD cards.

Mar 22, 2021permalink

voronspb

I don't really trust these adapters. Last time I used an adapter in my camera (SD to CF), it worked well... mostly. Until it displayed a tendency to freeze, rendering the card unusable until reformatting on PC.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

Djehuty

Hopefully they make one for CF-A slots.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

EXkurogane

So, will there be a dummy CFexpress card to SD card option for people who spent all their money on the latest and greatest camera body, and no budget left for lenses and memory cards? 🤔

Mar 19, 2021*permalink

illogict

As CFexpress uses PCIe NVMe protocol, the converters to use NVMe SSDs are simple passive devices.
As SD cards don’t use the NVMe protocol, converters won’t be simple passive devices but actual card readers with the CFe connector.
However, if SD Express card ever come to market, CFexpress to SD Express converters would also be easy to make. They won’t be compatible with standard SD cards though.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

Dragonrider

The R5 already has an SD slot. Why add a kludge? The CFexpress slot is there for when you actually need the speed.

Mar 22, 2021*permalink

Wow, and it's even reasonable in price given the difference in cost between SSD and CFast. Sweet!

Mar 19, 2021permalink

Chaitanya S

There are similar products available which allow use of M.2 NVME SSD with Type-B CFexpress cards. Level1tech on youtube did a review of these adapters couple of months back.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

NickZ2016

I was going to say the same thing. SATA speeds are likely too slow for anything that requires a large amount of storage. Plus NVME isn't anymore expensive today.

Only upside to this is the cheaper adapter.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

illogict

CFast uses SATA protocol, which is why the adapters uses mSATA SSDs.
CFexpress uses PCIe NVMe, which is why the adapters uses NVMe SSDs.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

waloshin2015

So they would work with the Z6?

Mar 19, 2021permalink

Ed Ingold

Using an SSD is much simpler via USB-C, or HDMI if you have an external recorder (e.g., Ninja V). As a professional, I'm not excited about a ribbon cable slim enough to close the memory door. Ordinary cables are fragile enough and prone to failure, as are their connectors.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

mart1234

Just tape the ribbon cable to the camera/rig. I would be much more worried breaking the USB-C port if the rig falls.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

tmy

Seems a bit DOA as a product.
maybe with m.2, this would be better...

I've been chasing Samsung EVO mSATA SSDs for sometime, especially the 1TB ones. They were discontinued some time ago (maybe 2 years, the lockdowns have twisted my sense of time...)

If for some reason, they are still available somewhere, i would love to know!

Mar 18, 2021permalink

Ziginox

So, that was my thought as well. mSATA SSDs are being produced less, because the computers that need them are getting older. That being said, I imagine they went with mSATA to avoid confusion with SATA versus NVMe m.2 cards. (B-key and M-key)

Mar 19, 2021permalink

yslee1

Since Zitay does m.2 versions as well, why not talk about those? mSATA is pretty dead now, at least in the consumer market.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

The main reason for removable in the past was because the storage was so low you needed to use multiple cards. Well, that problem is pretty much solved now that they have 4TB NVME drives. Even with a Sony a1 blazing at max speed it would take ages to fill 4TB. With my R5 I can fit about 2,200 uncompressed RAW files on a 128GB card... That usually covers me for a day, but just in case it doesn't I have 2 cards. For the R5 1TB works out to about 17,000 uncompressed RAW files. There are half a dozen 1TB drives on Amazon in the $100 range. Now that the cameras have USB C on them I presume you can get a fast transfer of files directly from the camera. I think it makes sense that CFe can be ditched but, I can still see situation where a second shooter or something might want to hand off files to their lead. Well, that is where wireless comes into play. Just link up two camera and hit sync and the files will sync right over to the master camera. You're welcome!

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

Sony A 1uncompressed RAW = 100 Mb + high quality JPEG = 50Mb
4Tb = 33000 shots. At 30 FPs that is just 18 min of shooting :D

Jokes aside. Storage redundancy is not solvable over wireless as the wireless transfer speed would have to match the write speeds for that. Also, it is essential to be able to physically separate two copies of the files without a computer.

That said, I am all for an internal SSD + one backup slot

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

The way I envisioned the wireless sync is that it would happen at a later time, not during shooting, might take a few minutes but it would be an option! I have shot with people before and they want the files right then and there, I was trying to think of a way to give them without having to use a card slot. Another option could be a USB C tether, might be faster too.

Redundancy is a thing but I just don't know how relevant it really is if you never remove the drive. But then again you can't trust end users not to mess something up... lol.

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

@octavia
Have you tried transferring RAWs over camera wifi? It is slooooow, like really slow. It's just not fast enough for that.

Also, it doesn't matter that the SSD is internal. No storage medium is ever 100% safe. You also wouldn't trust a single SSD in your computer (I hope).

And the backup slot has another function. One form of data loss people often forget is theft or external damage (camera falling off a cliff etc...). Having two storage mediums allows you to separate them at regular intervals significantly reducing the chance of lost photos in such an event. That is especially important for photography assignments or even just holidays spanning multiple days with no computer to back up stuff in the meantime.

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

@panther fan, well, the fact that camera wifi is slow, hopefully is not a permanent situation. In theory 5g wi-fi can be very fast, in the 5000Mbs range. So easily in the range of typical ethernet solutions.

I don't really trust a single SSD in my computer as I have a server for backups. But at some level a certain amount of trust is required. When it comes to these types of things all you can hope for is mitigation of risk not elimination. The question is are your jumping through hoops to gain a .1% increase in threat mitigation? Can you just let that .1% slide and live with a simpler solution?

Personally I have never had an SSD fail. I left one in an outdoor mailbox for most of the winter and it still works perfectly. Not saying it can't happen but the odds are very low if you never take the drive out and handle it.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

The main fail point for SSDs is going to be total data written. My current SSD has written a total of 22220 GB and still shows as being 99% healthy with 0 errors (according to CrystalDiskInfo). The odds of killing one in a camera due to write fatigue are very low. It would have to be an agency camera that was used daily for years and year and hammered the whole time before you would start to see errors.

Also, NAND is the now technology, there are superior technologies out there like 3D X-Point (optane) which currently has a rated lifetime of 350 petabytes of data written. With that amount you would be using an a1 or an R5 for centuries before wearing out the drive.

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

Ziginox

bloodreyna, I've been trying to find something that could do similar, basically just dumping the files to an FTP share as they're taken. Of course, the higher-end bodies with Ethernet and USB-C can do this, but not anything APS-C. Looks like Toshiba's FlashAir cards can do this, but they're stupidly expensive.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

I was hoping for it to use USB SSD drives. How do you connect the MSATA drive to a PC? Do you have to remove it every time? My phone supports USB drives .

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

With a CFast card reader

Mar 18, 2021permalink

Karroly

"With a CFast card reader"... that is already owned by the photographer using a camera with a CFast slot. ;-)

Mar 19, 2021permalink

Ziginox

Cow, the reason this uses mSATA SSDs is because CFast is based on SATA. There's not much, if any, active logic in this device. Going to USB would require a LOT more work and cost.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

midlingphotographer

The solution here is to create and industry-standard m.2 enclosure for customers to load into cameras and then a matching set of readers that connect via USB or PCIE, depending on the user's computr. A $150 nvme drive is faster than an $800 cfexpress card-that is ubsurd.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

Is the CFexpress maximum of 2000MB/s really limiting you ;)

(CFexpress is already the industry standard enclosure for an nvme ssd. It is just limited to 2 lanes in B form factor. CFexpress type C has the usual 4 lanes)

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

midlingphotographer

@panther fan I do understand that. However, sourcing from the high volume and price-sensitive computer parts market will save everyone a fortune and end users can actually know what kind of NAND and controller is in their drives.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

@midlingphotographer
"save everyone a fortune"
Unless you are manufacturing cards.

Also, camera manufacturers don't want to deal with the support for that.
1. what SSDs are supported (NVME, AHCI, etc...)
2. what power draw is allowed
3. how to communicate to consumers that they need to read past the SLC cache numbers for continuous recording
4. How to make the enclosures small? Nikon already says they are incapable of fitting two type b cards in their body
5. How long will the camera power a card while turned off (so it can clear the on ssd ram cache)

No camera manufacturer wants to deal with that. Especially since the average photogapher is not very tech savvy

Mar 18, 2021permalink

You do realize a CFexpress card is a PCIe card right? Your $150 m.2 NVMe is designed to be inserted into a motherboard and SCREWED into place. It is not meant to be constantly removed in/out of anything, especially since the drive's circuitry is exposed as well.

While I myself question $800 for a CFexpress card, there's a lot of tech going into those cards and as a relatively new form factor, they're always going to be more expensive than something that has been around for years.

Cameras are designed to be as small as possible and space is at a premium. They're going to use memory cards with the smallest possible footprint and designed for mobility. The m.2 form factor is not one of them.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

@Gmon750
I agree with what you said. But regarding size, it is not far fetched to build a cfexpress type b enclosure that could house an m.2 card inside. They are small
https://youtu.be/qPyjaHANuIo?t=519

Mar 18, 2021permalink

@panther_fan
Agree. I've seen other similar offerings that lets one use an external enclosure and it's great in theory. I don't see camera manufacturers providing that capability as it would certainly result in a far larger camera, and/or introduce other problems that they don't want to have to deal with.

High-capacity SD cards were sold for a king's ransom at first. No more. CFexpress will follow eventually.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

A one terabyte SD card exists at my local camera store-and it's $800.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

NickZ2016

There are plenty of external USB or TB cases that take a simple M.2 drive. All the camera companies need to do is support the USB port . This already exists on BlackMagic and I think the Z Cams.

You get back home you plug the drive into your computer and start editing. No card reader.

The CFe adapters have the kludge of the card adapter. Worse I think they're all permanently attached to the card adapter. Sooner or later something will fail. Cable or adapter.

On the previous comment on needing to tech support this. It's no different than the cards. All the camera makers put out a list of supported cards. If you go outside the approved list they just shrug . No different here.

The recorder companies have a list of approved SSD drives. We aren't talking anything new.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

Really liking the idea of plugging in an external SSD to the USB port on my cameras.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

DerKeyser

What cameramakers should really do is remove cards altogether, and instead deliver the camera with two small empty chassis’s with a Thunderbolt USB female receptacle and a M.2 2240 SSD slot.
The the customer can buy any PCIe NVMe M.2 2240 and insert in the chassis. Slot it in the camera (The camera has a USB-C/thunderbolt male connector internally, sothe customer can slot in the SSD chassis like a memory card.
But once removed it only needs a Thunderbolt or USB-C cable to be connected to a Computer.

It would brings speeds in the multi GB/s at MUCH MUCH lower cost that cards - and allow for MUCH larger capacities. Also - no card reader required.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

https://www.dpreview.com/news/9930037514/apple-cuts-adapter-and-card-reader-prices-to-appease-new-macbook-pro-buyers?comment=1722523493

Well, CFexpress is already kinda what you describe. Basically an NVME SSD and available.

-NVME SSD
-Up to 2TB in size
-Max speed is 1700MB/s (13600 Mbit/s)

The only but also the biggest problem is that card manufacturers charge a hefty premium for their cards

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

Mnemon

But would also increase the heat build up in the camera. M2s are faster, but get hot.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

Peak freak

Could damage any weather sealing in the card door, but might be worth it to users.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Less *than* original.

(Interesting project, might mean CFast cameras don't lose their value so quickly on the secondhand market as the cards become more expensive over time)

Mar 18, 2021permalink

PhotoW

This is such a great idea and should be the future of all memory cards.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

Francis85

Nah - Just put a m.2 slot or half m.2 in the grip.
It would be more convenient. It is also relatively cheap to get.

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

PhotoW

This could be a solution for those who don't want to use a grip. All cameras should allow for alternate recording methods.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

luigibozi

Mar 18, 2021permalink

Why couldn't there be an m2 SSD slot in the vertical booster grip? Those grips are already large and contain one or more extra batteries. Why not go all the way and stick in backup storage while you're there..

Mar 19, 2021permalink

cheesesteak

If we can get a PCIE connector with better longevity, maybe we can start seeing M.2 cards inside of cameras.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

CFexpress cards ARE PCIe cards. m.2 cards are not designed to be constantly removed in/out of their slots. They're meant to be inserted and SCREWED into place and forgotten about.

CFexpress is still relatively new. Even SD cards were expensive when introduced. CFExpress follows the same pattern.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

cheesesteak

I’m not aware of how CFExpress relates to PCIe. However, I don’t believe CFExpress currently achieves nearly the data rates or price point of SSDs I can drop in my computer. I reference the insertion cycle limit in the original post.

The technology seems available. Even with the file sizes with my A7R4 I’d love to have a 2TB NVMe drive semi-permanently mounted inside. I’d probably only remove it to put in a larger drive, like upgrading a PC. Video often uses external storage anyway, but would still benefit from the speed of the internal storage if they chose to use it.

Mar 18, 2021permalink

@cheesesteak -

CFexpress and m.2/NVMe drives are both PCIe-compliant. CFExpress is an SSD drive utilizing a mobile/smaller package useful for smaller devices.

TypeC CFexpress has 4GB/s transfer rate.
TypeB = 2GB/s
TypeA = 1GB/s

The speed rivals standard m.2-style NVMe drives. The only thing holding it back is the price which I can only expect it to go down as adoption increases.

Mar 18, 2021*permalink

NickZ2016

Price. The fact you need a reader or something.

The options that allow you to directly connect a drive to the camera tend to fix both problems. USB drive attached to a camera cage isn't a bad idea.

Mar 19, 2021permalink

There are also adapters from Zitay for CF-Express Type B to NVME

Mar 18, 2021permalink