Sony a7S III gets S-Cinetone color profile with new 2.00 firmware update

I really like the Eterna color profile on the Fujifilm cameras. This one looks OK too. It's nice to see Sony addressing color issues. Not everyone wants to spend hours color grading video.
I've seen people create LUTs that try to copy Fujifilm and Canon to save time which is a good idea too.

2 months ago*permalink

Samuel Dilworth

S-Cinetone first showed up in the FX9, I think, rather than the FX6.

Nice to see it arrive to the α7S III. I worried Sony might use this feature as arbitrary differentiation between the α7S III and FX3.

Since the FX3, strangely, doesn’t have a waveform monitor and shutter angle control, maybe we can yet hope for those features to arrive to both cameras? Maybe 4K DCI while we’re at it.

Whereas if the FX3 had had those, it would have been reasonable to expect the α7S III never to get them.

2 months agopermalink

Handsome90

Delete please

2 months ago*permalink

Alphaville

Is the min ISO for S-cinetone lower than for SLog 3?

2 months agopermalink

Aeronice

I think it's 100 and 2000

2 months ago*permalink

Entropy512

Yup. The description in their white paper makes it sound like instead of doing the per-channel tone curves that their standard JPEG pipeline uses, they're using a similar tone curve and the "big" difference is using a hue-preserving approach. See https://rawpedia.rawtherapee.com/Exposure#Curve_Mode for an explanation of curve modes - Sony's JPEG engine seems to use something like "Standard" (per-channel RGB) by default, Cinetone's description implies it's likely an algorithm similar to "Film-Like"

2 months agopermalink

Mateus1

Can't understand why Sony brings s-cinetone to wideocentric A7SIII but forgot to put in it basic, common and very desired NR feature that sets it to off which filmakers use most of the time? Does Sony software engineers forgot about it or Sony takes some pleasure in annoying and irritating its users?

2 months ago*permalink

User1234567890

No. It is called "let's keep some stuff to expensive gear, otherwise nobody would buy them if cheaper gear has all same features".

😁

2 months agopermalink

Thoughts R Us

Yes, if it were another brand, some would dare call it the "cripple hammer."

2 months agopermalink

pollup

Keep asking and they'll add this feature.

2 months agopermalink

JamesClark1991

Add lower noise reduction options and this will turn into a great video camera.

2 months agopermalink

Samuel Dilworth

Can noise reduction be turned off, or at least to a very low setting, with the FX3?

2 months agopermalink

JamesClark1991

No unfortunately. Unless you shoot RAW externally but that's a whole PITA

2 months agopermalink

StoneJack

Um they just obsoleted not yet released fx3?

2 months agopermalink

Come on. You are taking on trollish behavior.

The FX3 has s-cinetone. You Sony haters hate on Sony anytime they release a feature in a new camera and don’t update old cameras via firmware. And you hate on Sony for upgrading old cameras via firmware too.

It’s really getting old..

2 months ago*permalink

You mean the camera that's basically the same as the A7Siii, but with no VF and a small 4:3 LCD for 16:9 video?

I think you are right. The A7siii VF alone makes it better.

2 months agopermalink

The A7sIII viewfinder is amazing. But for some a camera body designed from the ground up for mounting in a cage is a better option.

They are giving you a choice so you can choose depending on your needs.

2 months agopermalink

A better choice would be to put a nice LCD on the camera , so you don't alway need to pay for an extra one.

Look at the new BM camera. It has a 5 inch 1500 nit LCD. So there is no need to buy an 2nd one.
If it's a video centric camera, just put a decent LCD on it.
Good LCD would be my first choice, but I'd settle for lower resolution tilting VF because that would be more useful than what the A7Siii has for video.

2 months agopermalink

Thoughts R Us

The back LCD on the Sony cameras is a weak point for them. If I were Canon/NIkon I'd put the very best LCD on their next cameras...and make a big deal about it. They already are better than the Sony LCD screens, but really differentiate with ones even better. Make their back LCD's a thing to behold, more on par with smartphones.

People react to things they can see...as photographers we know that...and a nice back LCD is something that people can easily see and appreciate.

2 months agopermalink

Yes. We know the LCD is a weak point. You pass up no opportunity to remind everyone here.

2 months agopermalink

vscd

The Sony crowd does the same on every Canon thread... Feels weird, doesn't it?

2 months agopermalink

fjbyrne

It's been posited that Sony uses these screens because they have lower power consumption. If this is true would people be willing to suffer with lower battery life for a better screen?

2 months ago*permalink

My eyes can’t take advantage of a better screen without reading glasses that I don’t wear when shooting. I am thankful they are putting the effort in the EVF. I don’t deny a higher resolution LCD would be good. Aside from the resolution though the existing LCD is just fine and very bright suitable to be used in direct sunlight.

2 months agopermalink

I prefer the larger LCDs on other cameras they are easier to see. It's not just the low resolution that is a problem.
And I do agree most can see the extra resolution on the LCD or the fixed EVF.

2 months agopermalink

Does anyone know how to use s-cinetone to monitor only like they mention in the article? Would like to use it like a gamma assist rather than shooting the full baked in picture profile and can't seem to find how to do that. Any help is appreciated!

2 months agopermalink

https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2010/v1/en/contents/TP0003229299.html

I don’t know the answer to your question. Maybe you can choose the s-cinetone for the LCD display and output the RAW and record that on an Atmos? Is that what you mean?

2 months ago*permalink

Horshack

@YungLynk, I don't own an A7sIII but from looking at the manual it appears the camera may let you choose a gamma assist that's different from the picture profile that is being applied to the recorded image. Here's a link to what I found:

When set to "Auto" the assist renders the gamma from the active picture profile (ie, previews the picture profile that gets baked into the footage). However, instead of auto you set it to the specific log you want the assist to render, such as S-Log2, S-Log3, HLG, etc.. Presumably S-Cinetone/S709 will be added to that list with this new firmware.

2 months agopermalink

@horshack - thank you for this well put together and researched response.
However, I also presumed S-Cinetone/S709 would be added to that list and it is not, which is what confused me about why I wasn't finding how to use it as a monitor. It still only lists the profiles to 709.

For clarity, I HAVE updated the firmware to 2.0 and S.Cinetone is available, but not in the gamma assist menu.

2 months ago*permalink

Horshack

@YungLynk, Well that's no good 😀 Sony has already updated their online manual to include the FW2.0 features and I see what you mean - it describes the S-Cinetone setting added to the picture profiles (https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2010/v1/en/contents/TP0003220955.html) but the assist section I linked doesn't show S-Cinetone as an available option.

Perhaps the "Sony says...can be used for monitoring only or as a ‘baked-in’ look" was taken from the S-Cinetone whitepaper (https://pro.sony/s3/2020/03/24095333/S-Cinetone-whitepaper_v2.pdf) rather than as a release note for this firmware.

2 months agopermalink

Maybe because Sony considers the s-cone tone profile to be a good out of camera profile that doesn’t really need to be graded? Not sure. Just speculating.

2 months agopermalink

@horshack - I think you're correct, I think this may be a verbiage miscommunication perhaps? Confusing either way. Maybe DPR Staff can comment?

@mikeran - I think your misunderstanding the issue or perhaps I misunderstand your point. My assumption for "monitoring" is that I can shoot in SLog3 and then use S.Cinetone as a LUT display (by changing the gamma assist in the A7siii) without actually shooting in S.Cinetone. I'm not looking to grade S.Cinetone out of camera.

2 months agopermalink

Yes. I understand. I think the gamma assist is to assist viewing when you’re shooting a profile that needs to be graded. I don’t think it’s intended to be an assist from any shooting profile to any displaying profile.

I get what you’re trying to do. I agree it would be useful. Just trying to rationalize why it may not be there.

2 months agopermalink

Coming in late sorry.

Can this profile be used for stills? And can we see examples of Standard vs this profile?

2 months agopermalink

Yes. It can be used for stills. (Confirmed on the A1. I presume on the A7SIII as well.). The Sony white paper has an example.

2 months ago*permalink

Ed Ingold

The S-Cinetone profile (PP11) appears to be intended for use without an LUT or post-processing unless you grade for a special effect.

I intend to use it for live-streaming under uncontrolled lighting, for its enhanced shadow detail and increased tolerance against overexposure.

2 months agopermalink

Everyone's response's here makes sense! Thanks for the replies and considerations. I think what it boils down to is the above articles use for "use for monitoring" is a little confusing, be it from sony or DPR.

2 months agopermalink

Markr041

Yes, it is meant to be a profile that is NOT meant to be graded. It is a more filmic default look than the 'Standard', which is really a video (ie, TV) look.

I find it to be worthless - lower dynamic range than Slog3, and grading Slog3 in, say, Resolve, is just a matter of setting the color management profile to Slog3 gamma and Slog3 color space with the timeline REC709 and that's it. Adds about 5 seconds to putting your video together if you are actually too lazy to "grade". Yes, I have the a7s iii and tried out S Cinetone. I will be posting a comparison.

2 months agopermalink

A comparison of a still image, especially portrait with Standard vs S-Cinetone would be amazing. Thank you.

2 months agopermalink

https://www.proav.co.uk/videos/sony-fx9-series-introduction-s-cinetone/

2 months agopermalink

Thx MikeRan but that is s cine vs rec709 from a video camera.

Im hoping to see a still image from the a1 or a7s Standard profile vs S-Cinetone.

2 months agopermalink

Steve I couldn’t find a better comparison. I was looking for good comparisons for stills too. In certain types of event lighting I always find I have to go from the JPG to the RAWs to cut back on highlights especially. I wonder if this profile will work in those scenarios to produce JPGs I can use basically out of camera.

I’ll have to play with it a bit when my A1 arrives....

2 months agopermalink

Entropy512

Seems like S-Cinetone is only beneficial for those who don't want to/can't do even minimal grading.

Someone mentioned livestreaming, but the last time I livestreamed I used S-Log2 and an OBS LUT. ( https://streamshark.io/obs-guide/color-grading-lut )

2 months agopermalink

Less time in post. Yes.
(If you like the look.)

2 months ago*permalink

Entropy, I think what MikeR and I are hoping for is that it makes a great jpg.

The only benefit (other than ergos) that I choose Canon is because they make excellent ooc jpg. I dont need to shoot RAW for most things.

Sony have been in the video scene for a long time, and its just very interesting to see if their video guys have made a magical jpg profile.

2 months ago*permalink

Mr_Win

@SteveAnderson yes, you can use for stills, I used for my passport photos yesterday, most Cinematic passport photos ever (Walgreens CVS no longer offer during pandemic)

1 month agopermalink

Markr041

Yes, S-Cinetone is meant to be the final look - no grading. And you should expose so that what you see in the monitor looks good, as that will be what the final result will be.

It makes no sense to convert the S-Cinetone profile to REC709 while shooting because if you want REC709, you should just shoot in REC709. In contrast (as it were), S Log3 is meant to be graded, and you might want to see what it looks like after grading while shooting; hence Slog3 Assist.

1 month agopermalink

@markr041 - Yes I understand that. The original question wasn't about grading S-Cinetone. It was about using S-Cinetone as a LUT on a flat profile. Because the above article insinuates that you can do that:

"The color profile, which Sony says ‘delivers natural mid-tones, plus soft colors and gorgeous highlights’ can be used for monitoring only or as a ‘baked-in’..."

1 month agopermalink