Kenko Tokina forms alliance with Carl Zeiss to be its distributor for lenses and more in Japan

I think Zeiss doesn’t do branding for Cosina, Tamron and Sony Zeiss lenses, but provides the optical and mechanical designs, provides the glass and coatings, also the production processes and certifies the factories where the lenses are made.

Sony Zeiss lenses are sold by Sony distribution channels. Cosina and Tamron lenses are sold by Zeiss distribution channels.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

TsaiProject

"Someone should really write an explainer on how Cosina, Kenko, Sony, and Carl Zeiss coexist."

I have no idea how they actually relate and I doubt many people do. When it comes to brand names, it's all about manipulating our perceptions ("optics management"). Who actually does the designing, manufacturing, delivery and servicing and who actually owns the IP or rights to any of these in the supply chain is quite a different matter than how these products are branded, including so-called country of origin.

I suggest swallowing the red pill on brand. It will be easier on the wallet and there will be less fanboyism.

Mar 5, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

An alliance for sale and repair of Zeiss products in Japan makes good sense in these times with future uncertainties involving travel. Less need to switch personnel back to home base at regular intervals. Less capital locked up in facilities. Less potential problems in market decisions affected by culture differences.

A straight, clear division of labors can benefit both parties, and Kenko-Tokina may actually be a commercially good choice.

Mar 3, 2021*permalink

Zeiss lenses are already made and serviced in Japan. Zeiss doesn't manufacture or service photography lenses themself

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Sylverphoto

@panther fan,
This is not quite true. There are a few photographic lenses that is made by themselves. I believe one wide angle for zm, zf and ze series.
In Europe Zeiss has serviced my lenses, even though it was handled by a distributer.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

@Sylverphoto
Yeah I know I know. Zeiss makes exactly one lens in Germany the 15mm, because it is identical to their cine line. That doesn't count

Mar 3, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

@panter fan Zeiss has a huge product range, so maybe the quote "Carl Zeiss products in Japan, including interchangeable photo lenses." covers a far broader range of products, than you expect, or...?

Now, Zeiss as a corporate entity, can lower the required presence in Japan too. May be worth a bob or two also in a world plagued by unsure future prospects. COVID continues to exist, we may even need recurring vaccinations each year or even more frequent for the foreseeable future. Maybe strict quarantines and lockdowns can be avoided, but travel restrictions in some, quickly shifting form may become everyday issues for a long time.

Planning for a possible different and changing world is called due dilligence in MBA speak (and in other places of "sanity"), and if you - like Zeiss - have survived a World War and whatnot, you absolutely know how to adjust to realities coming your way.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Japanese product, designed in Japan, with German branding.

It's the reason you can sell a Tamron/Tokina/Sony lens for double/triple the price to unsuspecting victims, I mean, astute professionals, one's that see special 3D pop and other bs phenomena.

I've fooled many conducting experiments with faked exif data.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Bashir Lunat

Melindra, "I've fooled many conducting experiments with faked exif data."
We often praise our tools for better results and often forget the skill to use those tools.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

This seems to have been long in the making.
Cosina Zeiss:
-Last Otus lens ~early 2019
-Last Milvus lens ~2017
Tamron Zeiss:
-Last Batis lens ~2018
Unknown Zeiss:
-Last Loxia lens ~2018
-Last Touit lens ~2014
Sony with branding Zeiss:
-Last lens ~2016

Also both Cosina and Tamron really picked up speed in their own releases. So it seems Zeiss wanted/needs a new partner and this has been in the making for some years now. Probably a whole new line of lenses coming developed with/by Tokina made by Tokina

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Sony now has brand recognition for lenses, and they can charge more than Sony Zeiss type of money for their GM lenses. Not sure if GM lenses render as well as Zeiss lenses, but they are at least as sharp and well built.

Cosina makes Zeiss MF lenses like ZF.2, ZE, ZM and Loxia. Tamron makes Batis and Touit AF lenses.

Tokina makes high quality lenses, maybe they can manufacture better AF lenses for Zeiss. The Sony, Batis and Touit lines have some plasticky feel. E, FE and X mounts are open standards, so Tokina lenses should AF fine.

That being said, Nikon AI-S lenses that were made up to recently, were better made than the lenses Cosina makes or made for Zeiss.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

"The Sony, Batis and Touit lines have some plasticky feel."

Well, that was the point. They should be light. Everybody can put a lens into a metal housing. That doesn't make it higher quality it just makes it heavier.

"That being said, Nikon AI-S lenses that were made up to recently, were better made than the lenses Cosina makes or made for Zeiss."

That is based on what?

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Based on my personal experience with classic ZF.2 vs AI-S lenses that I have and use. The Zeiss are all glass and metal, the Nikon also has some high quality rubber that still looks brand new after 20 years. For 180mm is not heavy at all. And it's clearly better made than the ZF.2's.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

@Igor Sotelo
The classic and Zf.2 line was discontinued some time ago. There is a reason the Milvus, Otus and Loxia line followed

Mar 3, 2021permalink

For Zeiss, ZF means AI-S and ZF.2 means AI-P. Otus and Milvus lenses are available for Nikon and are called ZF.2.

I saw the comments that the rubber on the Otus and Milvus lenses isn’t durable or scratch resistant as the rubber Nikon used in AI-S lenses. Also the markings aren’t engraved and filled with paint, but still printed.

Compared to other lenses Zeiss is excellent build quality, but AI-S, and previous AI or pre-AI, lenses are just outstanding.

Optically, it’s a different story.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Archlich

Kenko Tokina the caretaker. It also handles service of Konica-Minolta cameras (plus legacy gears from before the merge) in Japan.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

certo666

An early April fool's joke? Tokina and Zeiss are strange bedfellows!

Mar 3, 2021permalink

sknai16

I disagree! They both make and sell high quality lenses; Zeiss at a high price and Tokina more competitive. Makes perfect business sense, since they are most complimentary!

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Yep, this is basically a Lexus/Toyota branding/packaging exercise.

Zeiss is dead, the brand is all that has any value, it's all emotive, mostly older, deep pocketed customers.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

"Zeiss is dead, the brand is all that has any value"

For photography lenses. They still make cine lenses and outside of that they are a giant medical supplier and the optics provider for 80% of the chip industry and 100% of the EUV lithography. Every electronic device you own probably has seen a Zeiss lens at some point

Mar 3, 2021permalink

We use Zeiss lab microscopes (more a mix of Zeiss, Leica and Olympus really) but more particulary surgical microscopes where I still prefer them to others.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Pixel8888

There is also ZEISS FOR EYE CARE PROFESSIONALS and Zeiss eywear (glasses)
ZEISS Instruments & Systems optical instruments.
https://www.zeiss.co.uk/vision-care/eye-care-professionals/home.html

Mar 4, 2021permalink

You mean Zeiss branded eyewear, it's made by the same company that make dozens of other brands including Prada, RayBan etc.

Sony designs and manufactures lenses that wear Zeiss branding, that doesn't make them a Zeiss product.

My point, again, it's brand and solely a brand now, it was a leading manufacturer, buy that was long ago.

Mar 4, 2021permalink

Melinda, Zeiss makes a large array of different products, not just photographic and cine lenses. Like many companies it manufactures in a number of different countries, sometimes contracting out to third parties. Does that make it a name only? In that case so are Apple, Nike and most other major brands.

Mar 4, 2021permalink

Not really, Apple own their IP, they design the products and only the manufacturing is outsourced.

For example, as above, in the case of Zony lenses, almost all (possibly all) of them are designed by Sony, manufactured in a Sony owned or contracted plant and the only input by Zeiss is consultation, if that even happens.

Boom, some of them wear a Zeiss badge and no Sony badge. Some wear both like it was a combined effort.

The branding helps sell the product, but the brand had almost nothing to do with the design or manufacture.

Mar 4, 2021permalink

Yes, that makes sense, Zeiss has sales of over 6 billion euro a year but doesn't actually design or make anything themselves, only branding. Even if that was the case, which it isn't, thats a pretty good job of selling your name! From medical technology, industrial optics, microscopes, photo and cine lenses, they really should stop wasting their time and money on all that R&D and concentrate on their core business of "branding".

Mar 4, 2021permalink

Lots of incorrect assumptions there champ.

Mar 4, 2021permalink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Zeiss_AG#Vision_Care

It takes a big person to admit their assumptions were wrong. Well done.

Mar 5, 2021permalink

Pixel8888

ZEISS is active in four business segments with approximately equal revenue, Industrial Quality and Research, Medical Technology, Consumer Markets and Semiconductor Manufacturing Technology in almost 50 countries, has 30 production sites and around 25 development sites worldwide.

KZ7 Zeiss does have production sites in Germany. It's more than branding.

Mar 5, 2021permalink

@pixel
Thats the point I have been trying to make to Melindra. They are the one trying to say Zeiss is a brand name only. Obviously my attempt at sarcasm in my previous couple of posts didn't work :)

Mar 5, 2021*permalink

You're congratulating yourself?

I thought I'd do some research, so I asked a Zeiss medical rep, he said the biggest seller (in our country anyway) is a Topcon manufactured products branded Zeiss.

'Designed by Zeiss' (rofl), obviously designed and manufactured in Japan by Topcon, branded Zeiss.

He said they go through tonnes of Zeiss branded mouse mats etc.

That's from a Zeiss rep from HQ, gimme some data, happy to be proven wrong.

Being 'active' in four businesses doesn't mean they aren't simply white labelling.

Mar 5, 2021*permalink

"My point, again, it's brand and solely a brand now, it was a leading manufacturer, buy that was long ago."

That's obviously not true. But KZ7 is also partially wrong. Yes, Zeiss does a lot of branding, especially for consumer stuff. That doesn't mean they are not a leading manufacturer. They are just not in the consumer space.

Zeiss makes the highest quality and highest resolution optics in the world by far. They just have no application in cameras instead they are used to make the chips that work in cameras. If TSMC, Samsung, Intel, etc... need a new chip Fab they go to ASML and ASML let's Zeiss build a lithography optic the size of a house with performance unmatched by anyone in the world.

They still are the leading optical manufacturer. They just have no interest in low margin consumer products. And yes part of their industry and medical optics are also in partnership. But they still do a lot of stuff in house. (They even do their Cine lenses still in house, which break records)

Mar 5, 2021*permalink

@panther
As far as I am aware the Arri/Zeiss cine lenses are designed and manufactured by Zeiss. I deal a lot more with the medical side and their surgical microscopes are also designed and manufactured by them. Yes they sell their brand, as do other companies, but as you mentioned they are one of the premier optics companjes in the world.

Mar 5, 2021permalink

I could be wrong, but my contact specifically told me that Zeiss do not make the optical products for their most profitable ventures.

He moves Zeiss branded, mostly Topcon manufactured (and he says Topcon designed) products for medical, mostly delivered to optometrists and such.

When I explained how Zeiss brand lenses for Sony that are designed and manufactured by Sony, he confirmed it was a similar white label approach for the rest of the Zeiss branded products.

He said he may be incorrect, but after working for them for years and Leica prior, he's my best source of data.

Mar 5, 2021permalink

AbrasiveReducer

Since, in most cases, you're already getting a German lens that's made in Japan, why not? Saves Zeiss the grief and Tokina gets to use the name. With a little luck, you might send a Lensbaby for service, and through a mixup in the shipping department, get a Zeiss lens in return.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

nk4002r

I don't think this means that Tokina gets to license the Zeiss name or logo on its products. Distribution, marketing and servicing has been mentioned in the article. In practical terms: if a camera store wants to sell a Zeiss lens, they will order it from Tokina. Tokina will also order printing and send out promotional catalogs for the Zeiss brand. When a customer requires servicing of a Zeiss lens, they'll ship it to a Tokina facility for repairs.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

snapa

Carl Zeiss has diminished their past reputation with many of their lenses. They put their name on lenses, but many of them have been compromised by sub standard IQ, especially for the asking price.

Mar 3, 2021*permalink

snapa:

Please cite examples. Yes, I can think of some, but they don't usually have some especially high asking price.

Also, you do realize this is not a manufacturing agreement?

Cosina will continue to make the optically excellent to astounding Milvus and Otus lenses.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Lightmomentum

The irony there is that the ZeissVario- Tessar lens design which is approx 80 years old is still being produced.I worked with and used Nikkor lenses for 20 years.

The Zeiss image was distinctly different(superior) to the Nikkors, although Nikkor quality is still acceptable.What is not acceptable is when you get to binocular. Zeiss 10x56 Night Owls when compared to the Nikon equivalent has to be seen to be believed.I had my own Night Owls which were matched against the best Nikons by the Nikon sales manager.His first and last response was @#$! as he walked out and I was told never to bring the Zeiss binoculars to work again.

Mar 7, 2021*permalink

Light:

Well, except Nikon binoculars aren't very good any longer. They may have been good in the 1970s.

For "Japanese" binoculars try Pentax and Olympus, both are excellent, though probably not as good as the best from Zeiss.

Mar 7, 2021permalink

bs1946

Unless I'm mistaken, Zeiss still makes their commercial Cini lenses in Germany, so excluding them from any deal makes sense. Cosina makes the rest of the Zeiss lenses in the same factory in Japan that they use to make their Voigtlander lenses and there's no mention of a change in that, at least for now. Perhaps Zeiss is testing the waters here to see how Tokina does with sales and service, with the possibility of giving them the manufacturing piece sometime down the road.

Mar 2, 2021*permalink

The last Cosina Zeiss release was a few years ago. Cosina seems very focused on their own Voigtländer brand. So it seems in the background Zeiss is already shifting. Also, the Batis lenses are probably already made by another third party

Mar 3, 2021permalink

bs1946

Cosina has nothing to do with any decisions regarding the Zeiss product lines, including distribution, marketing, or new product development. They are just a contractor hired by Zeiss to build their lenses, which is done at the same factory where Cosina builds their Voigtlander lens. Cosina has a long term license from the actual German owners of the Voigtlander name that gives Cosina complete control over Voigtlander's operations.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

noirdesir

I might have misunderstood things a little bit, but Leica and Zeiss at least at some point shared the same distributer in Switzerland (I think it was Leica distributing Zeiss lenses).

Mar 2, 2021permalink

teddoman

proverbial

Mar 2, 2021permalink

Richard Butler

Thanks for pointing that out. I've corrected it.

Mar 2, 2021permalink

Seems like both Cosina (Voigtländer) and Tamron no longer want to pay for the name. Let's hope Tokina doesn't ruin it

Mar 2, 2021permalink

panther fan:

This announcement doesn't say that Tokina is taking over the manufacturing of Zeiss Milvus and Otus lenses, which are made under contract by Cosina in Japan.

It's not clear that Tamron is the manufacturer of Zeiss Batis lenses.

I noticed that the lenses that Sony used to label Zeiss are now just T*, example the 50mm f/1.4 FE mount lens.

Mar 2, 2021permalink

teddoman

The lens name has ZA, or Zeiss Alpha.

And they still say Zeiss in the descriptions.
https://www.sony.com/electronics/camera-lenses/sel50f14z

Mar 2, 2021permalink

LookintotheMirrorlessoften

teddoman:

Not at B+H Photo's website, or last time I looked. they didn't.

I'd not go by Sony's website, it's not known to be super well updated.

Mar 2, 2021permalink

Evildogofdoom

Ted do an, though it is noticeable that Sony hasn’t released any ZA lenses for a few years. It’s premium ranges now appear to be G and GM only.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

@panther pay for their name? Cosina is manufacturing lenses FOR Zeiss. So it’s Zeiss paying them.

And tamron don’t use Zeiss name at all.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

FrancoD

following the comments from teddoman, a keen observer might be able to spot the Zeiss logo on that lens.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

JakeJY

@HowaboutRAW

Not seeing the same thing you are seeing. The B&H site still says "ZA Lens" right in the title, and the main picture has the lens showing a big blue Zeiss logo on it.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1264965-REG/sony_sel50f14z_planar_t_fe_50mm.html

Mar 3, 2021permalink

JakeJY:

Right, ZA is the mount.

Also the URL you posted says "Sony" not "Zeiss".

This is the name on the webpage:

"Sony Planar T* FE 50mm f/1.4 ZA Overview"

And the text reads "based on the Zeiss planar design".

These were called Zeiss lenses as recently has 2 years ago. They were not called Sonys, nor were they called SonyZeisses, by Sony at least, commenters at DPR is a different matter.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Sylverphoto

Zeiss has been a reowned company for many years and they have developed many technologies. Since this only applies to Japan they were maybe looking for a partner who can distribute and repair their lenses. There are only a few possibibitlies:

a) Zeiss wants to cut costs at their service/sales department in Japan. Zeiss lens sales could have slowed down. Who of you knows who have repaired Zeiss lenses in Japan? Cosina?

b) The demand of Zeiss lenses has grown and they no longer can handle the work load and therefore there is change needed to find a partner? With Kenko Tokina Zeiss would have an advantage because they are Japanese and represent more than one company.

c) Zeiss does no longer fit into Cosinas portfolio and Cosina wants to expand the production for their one line up? EF and F mount sales could have decline since every new camera is basically mirrorless.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Tamron is almost certainly making the Batis lenses. Here are the two facts we know for certain

-The Batis lenses are not manufactured by Zeiss themselves but by a third party in Japan
-Tamron owns the patents to the Batis lens designs. So Zeiss at least bought the designs from Tamron

And here are things that are not certain but very indicative

-Cosina the usual manufacturer for Zeiss lenses has zero experience in AF-design and IS-design. Both things that were well executed in the Batis lenses. Tamron on the other hand is very experienced and the implementation was very close to other Tamorn lenses.
-Sony Zeiss and Tamron long had a love triangle. Sony used Zeiss for marketing and partially owns Tamron. Tamron and Batis have gotten first party support on E-mount etc…
-Despite Tamron going 100% on E-mount over the last years they completely avoided to compete with the Batis lenses in any focal length. And that is besides stabilized 85 1.8 / 45 1.8 etc… were their thing in DSLR mounts.

Mar 3, 2021*permalink

-Cosina doesn’t list the Batis lenses as “their” lenses on their website, which they do for other Zeiss lenses

Mar 3, 2021permalink

panther fan:

"Tamron owns the patents to the Batis lens designs. So Zeiss at least bought the designs from Tamron."

Citation please.

No one here is asserting that Cosina manufacturers Zeiss AF lenses, so the Batis line in this context. In fact, I explicitly referenced manual focus lens lines made by Cosina under contract for Zeiss, those being the Milvus and Otus lines. I'm not making any claims to know which party makes the manual focus Zeiss Loxia lenses. Though pretty sure that Cosina makes the Zeiss M lenses.

The 85mm f/1.8 SLR lens from Tamron has a different elements count than the 85mm f/1.8 FE mount sold under the Zeiss Batis name.

I was unaware of, and would like a citation to support, Sony's part ownership of Tamron. It's certainly possible. And I have read the rumor, so that's unconfirmed, that Sony makes the Batis lenses. BUT Sony is no longer labeling lenses like the "Zeiss" FE mount 50mm f/1.4 as Zeiss. They're now Sonys based on Zeiss designs.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

LookintotheMirrorlessoften

Batis lens patent.
18mm:
https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/patent-adds-one-evidence-zeiss-batis-18mm-designed-tamron/
85mm:
https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/now-we-can-be-almost-sure-of-it-the-batis-85mm-has-been-designed-by-tamron/

And for the ownership just go to the Tamron website and look under investor relations here:
https://www.tamron.com/ir/stockbond/stockbond_04.html

Sony owns 12.07% of Tamron

Mar 3, 2021permalink

FrancoD

Tamron has been making lenses for Sony for a long time. Most if not all of the lenses on the Sony camcorders as well as the compact cameras come from Tamron. That Sony has been one of the major Tamron shareholders has never been a secret, it's a public company.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

Impulses

" I was unaware of, and would like a citation to support, Sony's part ownership of Tamron. "

Really? I thought that was pretty common knowledge by now, much more so than who makes what lenses for whom... Sony has been the second largest shareholder in Tamron since 2018... Beyond the fact that they're very transparent about it (see panther's link), the relationship seems to have had obvious ramifications for their E mount lens development.

Mar 4, 2021permalink

Astro Landscapes

PAGING ROGER CICALA! Can we get a translation of what this means for Tokina's optical service capabilities?

Tokina has always made optically impressive lenses, especially their wide-angle stuff, but as a very small company I don't know what resources they've had to do service/support at a high caliber, such as optical bench testing and stuff.

This alliance could mean that Tokina is about to get a lot more attractive as a long-term investment for those looking to get lenses that last long enough to need to be serviced.

Sounds a bit convoluted, but I'm sure there are plenty of photographers out there who have been burned by the likes of Roki-Yang when they spend a few hundred buck on a lens and discover it is literally "disposable".

As a nightscape photographer, I believe that aside from some of the latest Fuji X-mount optics, the Tokina f/2.8 and f/2 APS-C ultra-wide-angle zooms are still the absolute best, even after "all these years".

Mar 2, 2021permalink

Txoni

Could you point out which Fujinon lenses you'd suggest for nightscapes? It's a subject I haven't tried much.

I find very few X mount lens reviews that test coma or test lenses at night. And many are designed for being light, rather than bright. Any suggestions are appreciated, but please please do my pocket a favor and don't suggest I buy the 200 f2 ;-)

Mar 2, 2021permalink

shigzeo

Kenko/tokina are actually quite a large company. They will be fine.

Mar 2, 2021permalink

Astro Landscapes

Txoni, I was mainly referring to the fact that, of all the APS-C mounts, and all the lens makers on the market, Fuji is the only one (to my most up-to-date knowledge) to also have an f/2.8 ultra-wide-angle zoom, the 8-16mm f/2.8. All the other brands besides Tokina are "stuck" with either f/4 or variable aperture ultra-wide APS-C lenses, unless I am forgetting one. Sigma makes a 16mm f/1.4 for Sony's APS-C E-mount bodies, and also for Fuji X-mount IIRC, and it is apparently quite good. Other than that, there's just not much in terms of wide-angle, fast-aperture glass for APS-C.

Mar 2, 2021permalink

if you consider 2.8 fast, than there are some primes for apsc too. many are using the samyang 12mm f/2. then there are the laowa 9mm 2.8 and the zeiss 12mm 2.8 for example

Mar 3, 2021*permalink

Astro Landscapes

@Looking,

I consider f/2.8 to be decently fast for a zoom, but not for a prime, at least not on APS-C where there's a ~1 stop loss of light-gathering ability. (Which is why I'd almost rather have the Tokina 14-20mm f/2 than the Tokina 11-20mm f/2.8)

The Rokinon/Samyang 12mm f/2 is great, if you're on mirrorless, but I spent most of my former time with APS-C in the DSLR realm, so it wasn't an option. And all of the other primes I tried that were wide enough were just terrible in the corners, besides the Roki-Yang 10mm f/2.8; that one was decent.

Mar 3, 2021permalink

@Astro Landscapes

You missed the new Pentax 11-18mm F2.8. And the Tokina 14-20mm F2 is not really that wide on APS-C.

The big problem for APS-C is price. The Pentax is 1399$, the Fuji lens is 1999$. The Tokina is not wide enough and there are no AF UWA primes faster than F2, except the manual Samyang 12mm F2, which is just ok-ish

If you are just into Astro you can actually buy a decent FF body + an UWA F2.8 prime which will easily beat every APS-C option for less money. FF F2.8 zooms are cheap and available in plenty of varieties and there are actually even faster primes available.
UWA is really THE domain where FF shines

Mar 3, 2021permalink

midlingphotographer

Kenko tokina, as in the makers of pentax/tokina lenses?

Mar 2, 2021permalink

Revenant

Yes, Kenko Tokina is the name of the parent company after the merger of the two brands.

Mar 2, 2021permalink