Another one bites the dust: Sony suspends orders of its ZV-E10 camera, citing chip shortage

Maybe it forces them to create completely new designs based on components that are easier to source than those they keep using generation after generation with gradual improvements. In the end, it may help to throw old ballast overboard and increase the speed of innovation.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Horshack

I'm intensely curious about which specific parts used in these Sony cameras are in short supply. Perhaps Roger C. can look over his teardown photos, draw up a BOM, and check with market sources to see which parts are in short supply.

The current situation is creating some interesting dislocations. One of my ridiculous hobbies is monitoring the retail price of DRAM. You would expect the worldwide shortage of chips to cause retail DRAM prices to skyrocket. The exact opposite has happened - DRAM prices are near historic lows right now and there's a glut of supply. Why? I assume because the shortage for other computer parts, including GPUs, means there aren't enough parts to build the computer systems that require the large-production capacity of DRAM.

I assume these types of dislocations are happening everywhere. For example, what will Sony do with their excess CMOS sensor capacity now that both cameras and smartphone production capacity is constrained by the supply of other chips?

Dec 6, 2021permalink

It’s a valid point and I think there is something to your suspicion about DRAM prices. How that affects Sony’s CIS capacity/demand is anyone’s guess. The good news for Sony and other CIS manufacturers are even though the cell phone market may be slowing a bit the number of cameras in the average phone continues to increase. I suspect the net is a continually increasing demand for cis for cell phones.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

trungtran

Same as laptops, Chromebooks and tablets. Plenty of deals this past BF and CM. I bought a tablet and chromebook, that i had absolutely no need for, but the deal was too good to pass. I would have picked up a camera as well, if there were a deal to be had.

Chip shortage is discriminatory. Only certain industries and product lines appear to be impacted. I guess low profit, low volume items are making way for high volume / higher profit items.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

I’m telling you it’s luck of the draw. If you happened to pick the wrong power management IC you’re screwed and the guy that picked a similar performing power management IC from a different manufacturer for the same price has ample supply. Still the first guy has to redesign his board to use the available power management IC and that takes weeks and months. And here we are.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

photographytragic

Then of course you have the knock-on impact on product failure rates. I can hear the Quality Dept shrieking "we must have time to test every variant of that circuit board".
And that is another thing in the mind of the Canon, Sony etc executives when they make some of these devastating announcements.

Dec 7, 2021permalink

onlyfreeman

I have no idea what's going on with pricing and shortages, but when will SSD prices drop? Probably after I buy a bunch. Typical. 😂

Dec 7, 2021*permalink

MaxDMachy

Pricing might be very different in different regions.
What I observed in Europe was high prices in Europe for all camera manufacturers - until the Nikon Z9 was announced. Then suddenly attractive pricing and a generous cashback program by Sony for midprice models. On a special offer day I treated myself to the APSc 70-350mm lens, more importantly I now also own a Zony 35mm f1.4, smartadapter to a Nikon Z5.

Somehow it seems ridiculous, a flagship camera influencing amateur or prosumer product pricing. Presumably the demonstration of technical abilities, bound to be introduced in future midprice bodies, was sufficient to make Sony nervous

Dec 7, 2021permalink

onlyfreeman

I was waiting for the day they're cheap as HDDs, wasn't that day supposed to be here already?

Dec 7, 2021permalink

Entropy512

In addition to the Sony-sourced BIONZ and sensor, at least in an A7R2 iFixit teardown, they found general-purpose Cortex-M microcontrollers. https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Sony+a7R+II+Teardown/45597#s100772

Microcontrollers have gone unobtainium lately - https://www.robosprout.com/the-global-chip-shortage-and-smoothie/

@MikeRan - even the people who did redesigns are getting nailed because everyone else is doing the same thing, and thus the previously "more available" products have gone unobtainium (see the above Smoothieboard article)

Dec 7, 2021*permalink

Kerensky97

@Horshack
My tech industry (completely different from cameras) is suffering the exact same issues. We have a lot of proprietary custom chips, and that is the bottleneck. The memory chips and stuff that is mass produced and used in millions of products by thousands of companies aren't what's hurting, it's the custom stuff that is only made for us.

I'm guessing the Sony issues are either the sensors or the CPU. I wonder how the frozen product lines match up with which version of Bionz chip they're using.

Dec 7, 2021permalink

Yep. I’m doing some small run designs now and I’m procuring all key components before i finalize the layout.

For high volume long term production stuff this is difficult to do.

Dec 7, 2021*permalink

photographytragic

@Kerensky97 In a later post, @ProfHankD says the models being suspended are the ones with FSI sensors, and theorises it may be that the sensor fabs are shifting to BSI sensors. (general shortages probably also in the mix of course)

Dec 7, 2021permalink

Nokiron

This is happening to all the actors in the industry, whether they announce anything or not. It's sadly a reality of the world right now, incredibly frustrating.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Strobist

Wow, this is turning from bad to worse.

If a gigant like Sony can't get chips, then I dont know what this will mean for the general world market as a whole.

It could also be that China has a bigger Covid problem than they are willing to let the world know about, and that that is the real problem affecting manufacturing / shipping.

If the world learn anything from this, then we need to move production out to many continents and countries, rather than relying on one big sweat-shop. (China)

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

photographytragic

I believe over 50 percent of higher end logic chips are made in Taiwan.
Bet many Governments are offering incentives to set up fab facilities real fast.
Chips are not the only component shortage impacting the making of the printed circuit boards though.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Most chips are not manufactured in china. This is not a china problem. This is a pork cycle problem

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

Djehuty

Lol this isn't about China, you despise the CCP but this isn't it. Supply chains are seeing the lingering effects of the pandemic.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

tkbslc

China only controls about 10% of the Chip market. Taiwan has 53%, Korea about 17% and Singapore about 13%. This isn't really a China problem. But yes, we could definitely use more chip makers. TSMC is getting more business than they can keep up with. A new Samsung chip fab was just announced in Austin TX. Intel is currently spending $44 billion building new fabs in USA, EU and Israel. So maybe there is hope for the future.

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

Jon Stern

@tkbslc spot on. The issue is it takes 2 years to build a modern fab.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

What’s happened is the cost to build these fabs has grown so large that the business to justify the capital investment is absolutely huge. That’s why we only see huge companies like Intel and TSMC building fabs. Aside from the huge guys driving very high demand (like Intel, amd, Apple, and NVidia) no other OEM can afford to build a fab. (And Intel is really the only ones still doing it.). The rest of the world is looking to foundries to outlay the huge cash because they can recoup that investment by serving many smaller customers (and a few huge ones, like AMD, NVidia, and apple.) with enough business in total to repay the investment.

Dec 7, 2021*permalink

NoSasaeng

The main issue is ASML isn't able to build enough machines to really scale up production. Every single company is basically dependent on ASML

Dec 7, 2021permalink

ASML isn’t the only photolithography vendor (though they are clearly the leader), and photolith equipment isn’t the only equipment required to run a fab.

There’s a piece of this that is actually fab wafer capacity and there is a (much larger) piece of this that is other materials in the electronics/chip making supply chain.

Dec 7, 2021*permalink

NoSasaeng

Well they are more or less a monopoly. For immersion DUV the only competitor is Nikon (with ~10% of the market), for dry DUV it's Canon and Nikon with ASML around ~65% of the market. For next generation EUV they have no competitor since Nikon and Canon pulled the plug. They got 100%, 90% and 65% of the market in 3 sectors. It's safe to say most of these fabs wouldn't be running without ASML. Sure there are other components to building one but these tend to be easier to acquire.

Dec 7, 2021permalink

Entropy512

@MikeRan - FYI, Nvidia is fabless

Dec 7, 2021permalink

Yeah I know. That was the point of my “only Intel is really doing it” part.

Dec 7, 2021permalink

Bird Lover 1

I always liked the NEX5/A5000 series
So I was glad to see the ZV-E10.

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

JJPL

What is P (probability) value, for this, as stage one of departing from camera business in total?

Dec 6, 2021permalink

SafariBob

Fairly low given the interim release of the a7iv and 70-200 ii

Dec 6, 2021permalink

geekyrocketguy

Considering they're the industry leader, 0. But this might lead to abandonment of their APS-C line.

Dec 7, 2021permalink

JJPL

#safari
R&D cost spent, release made, recovered some investment, closed thereafter.
#geek
Market leader, in a market they might not want to be any more

We all know Sony history in some other product lines.
On the other hand, Nikon killed DL line, and emerged with Z line. So, who knows, what Sony "killing" means.

Dec 7, 2021*permalink

Kerensky97

It's just a supply issue. A massive company isn't going to abandon a brand new product 5 months into it's release. The amount of R&D and marketing money is too much.
They have a marketing conundrum. Take orders and anger those people by having a 6 month waiting list. Or just stop taking orders and tell people "We'll start taking orders again when we have chips."

They went with the latter.

Dec 7, 2021permalink

tkbslc

No longer making sub $1000 cameras, I guess.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

forest dream

Later, No longer making sub $2000 cameras, I guess.

Sony a7IV cost $2500, premium $500 from a7III.
Later a7C II....

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Beolab

Lol- Sony is now back to micro-usb only in the APS-C line. We know Tesla delivered cars without USB-C ports recently...Suspicious.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Well, Sony basically is without an APS-C line. If anything only the A6600 Is still manufactured

Dec 6, 2021permalink

I think you are on to something big here! Stay on it!

Dec 6, 2021permalink

theRose

Dec 6, 2021permalink

forest dream

I guess Sony A6600 production will drop soon if Sony a7 IV sell volume is enough high.

Dec 7, 2021permalink

SafariBob

Not sure a Tesla charges that much faster over usbc than micro usb.

Dec 7, 2021permalink

The Mad Kiwi

Looks like the end of the line for Bionz X. They’ll be saving the last ones for A7III manufacture.

Totally new APSC cameras must be coming real soon now. New processors and new stacked sensors.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Wouldn't bet on stacked sensors. But new processor is certain

Dec 6, 2021permalink

theBitterFig

This *was* the new APS-C camera.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Djehuty

What makes you think moving on to a new SOC would improve supply lines?

Dec 6, 2021permalink

turke

Depending on the process node and availability of that node (if it's old, the foundry can want to start and phase it out, or, the node has become crowded) they may want to move to a different process without the effort of a die shrink when an already designed chip is available.

I don't personally think thats happening, it's just a thought.

Dec 7, 2021*permalink

bluevellet

And nothing of value was lost.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

gameshoes3003

Kind of surprising. I thought that they were prioritizing the ZV-E10 over the A6400/6100 (which I guess they did until this announcement) so I wasn't expecting them to have issues making them.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Andyyy

I thought the same.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

RubberDials

Last sentence Gannon...

Dec 6, 2021permalink

RubberDials

Was an orphaned word - now removed.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

A6000 - eol
A6100 - suspended
A6300 - eol
A6400 - suspended
A6500 - eol
A6600 - still produced?
ZV-E10 - suspended (released just in august this year)

A7 - eol
A7R -eol
A7S -eol
A7 II - suspended

Basically, they suspended camera production of all cameras below 1500$, to save their chips for higher-margin products. Understandable, but that is going to bite them seriously later

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

Impulses

Z5 & Fuji be like... 🤑

Seriously tho, I thought Sony's low end lineup was kinda shaky as is, so yeah this is bound to have long term impact.

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

MILC man

@panther fan - "Basically, they suspended camera production of all cameras below 1500$, to save their chips for higher-margin products."

what specific chips are you referring to? this is the bionz x list from wikipedia:
CXD90027GF SoC with unidentified ISP (Stacked DRAM) - α7, α7R, α7 II, α6000, α6500, α99, α7 III
CXD90027GF SoC with CXD4236-1GG ISP - α7S, α7S II, RX100 IV, Sony FDR-AX33
CXD90027GF SoC with Dual CXD4236-1GG ISP - α7R II,[5] α7R III[6]

eol is not a chip shortage, can't lump cameras from 2014 in with much later models.

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

onlyfreeman

There's always the eBay I guess. Plenty of stock there.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Puppy2007

A7 I and II are very old models, already two generations old. No wonder. The A6400 is a bit surprising, but the shift to full frame is apparent.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

CXD90027GF SoC is used in all Sony 1-4th gen cameras, So yes Sony sells you an A7R IV or A9 II with the exact same SoC inside as an A6100

That's why you can suspend all those low end bodies and have chips left over for high margin products

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Impulses

I don't think it's a leap to suggest they're trying to protect the supply of A7 III & A7R II/III bodies along w/some RX100s... First 3 are >$1.5K and the RX100 IV is $1K. Not having an a6400 nor ZV-E10 to sell under those price points is definitely not favorable.

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

MILC man

@panther fan - "CXD90027GF SoC is used in all Sony 1-4th gen cameras, So yes Sony sells you an A7R IV or A9 II with the exact same SoC inside as an A6100"

that cxd***** chip is not the image processing engine in the bionz dual-chip setup:

"The a9 II also comes with a new, faster processor which, along with updated AF algorithms, promise improved autofocus speed and acquisition times" https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sony-alpha-9-ii-review/2

so it's not the same as what's in the a6000, and many of the sensors are also totally different between those camera models, there just isn't any basis for blaming it all on the soc portion of the bionz chipset, or any other specific chip... we just don't know what their actual parts shortages are.

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

forest dream

Later, No longer making sub $2000 cameras, I guess.

Sony a7IV cost $2500, premium $500 from a7III.
Later a7C II....

Dec 6, 2021permalink

@forest dream
Even without a chip shortage, and the A7 III being from 2018. 1999$ in February 2018 are in 2220$ in October 2021 money, and that is with official CPI numbers and no future rise priced in.

Also, the A7 III was the most expensive baseline A7 at that point. The A7 II was prices at 1700$. So it is clear that Sony is moving upmarket. Which is no surprise as the ILC market was about 3.5x the size when they started making the first A7 compared to now. (And the fixed lens market was 14x what it is now)

Dec 6, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

The ones who maximised profits most with ridiculous global supply chains are now threatened hardest.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Most of these cameras and components are produced in a couple of Asian countries. That can hardly be called global supply chains.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

The supply chain is absolutely global regardless of the location of final assembly.

Dec 6, 2021permalink

Yes, it is a global problem and supply chains overall are global. But issues at Asian factories and ports are major causes of the semiconductor shortage. So these components are "regional" for Asian camera manufacturers, and sourcing more of their parts from their region wouldn't have helped them at all. That is my point.

Dec 6, 2021*permalink

News flash. There are issues worldwide.

Go request wafer lead times from any of the fabs in Europe. What do you think they’re quoting for lead times?

Dec 6, 2021permalink

So tell me: how do you avoid global supply chains for more resilience against such issues?

Dec 6, 2021permalink

That’s a tough challenge and the answer is complicated. Most companies aim to have multiple suppliers for many components and actively manage those stocks as the supply change landscape evolves.

No doubt no one predicted the kind of issues we are having currently some companies are suffering more than others. No one is immune.

I’m simply mentioning this isn’t a predominantly Asian shortage as you insinuated. It’s a global problem.

Dec 6, 2021permalink