Another one bites the dust: Sony suspends orders of its ZV-E10 camera, citing chip shortage

@Thoughts R Us - "And unlike the ZV, the R3 is still in production and still shipping"

the r3 is not in production, it's not in stock, and it's certainly not shipping, as the other dpr article stated... you can't run a production line without the parts to build the gear, if the r3 was "in production" as you claimed, it would be shipping now.

"Canon says it could take half a year for your EOS R3 order to ship... According to Canon, ‘it may take more than half a year to deliver when you place a new order’ for its EOS R3 camera and RF 14–35mm F4 L IS USM lens. Other lenses and accessories are also being impacted. Specifically, Canon says the RF 16mm F2.8 STM, RF 100–400mm F5.6–8 IS USM and RF 400mm F2.8 L IS USM will ‘take longer than usual to ship.’ " https://www.dpreview.com/news/5451300433/canon-says-it-could-take-half-a-year-for-your-eos-r3-order-to-ship

> R3...still shipping...some newer orders may be delayed...

It's amazing how many misrepresentations TRU can pack into a single post.

The R3 does NOT appear to be shipping. There isn't even an "expected" date on the major online camera stores for the R3 (there are expected dates for other new cameras such as the Sony A7 IV, expected 12/30, and the Nikon Z9, expected 12/15).

Canon in their official statement actually said that "It may take more than half a year to receive new orders."

> Why did Sony "luck out?"

The ZV-E10 is just one of many cameras Sony makes.

The R3 on the other hand is Canon's big new high-profile flagship sports camera and the ONLY new camera they announced in 2021. After all the tremendous hype they put out regarding the R3, the fact they are now putting off deliveries of the camera until the second half of next year is, as I said before, an epic fail.

@milcman and @mikegt: FYI, a parts shortage doesn't mean zero part or zero production. That's your biased spin.

The R3 is in fact in production. Just because you don't see the assembly lines or the individual shipments, doesn't mean it's not happening. If you follow Canon users on social media you see there are people receiving R3's. I just read a report today that one guy got two and only needed one, because he ordered from two separate stores and they both delivered at the same time. I read another report where a guy's local camera store says they are trickling in, a few at a time, and those go to fulfill preorders. You see images from people using the R3 at sporting events and for BIF/wildlife.

just today Sony warned of a shortage of the upcoming A7 IV and that some will have to wait...does that mean the A7IV has stopped production entirely? By your reasoning it does.

I think the key words here are "good enough". of course, "good enough" depends on the needs of the photographer. For Instagram, yeah sure, a smartphone is probably enough, but if you're shooting portraiture, probably not.

But for some, the smartphone is all they need, especially if they are just taking snapshots. It all depends on the user (photographer) and what they want to get out of it, and of course, the hassle. For most people, they already have a smartphone and have it with them, and they just want to take "good" shots, not necessarily award winning pieces. I do agree that it may not always replace a dedicated camera, but things have improved in camera imaging.

I think the stock price contribution from ILCs is near negligible for Sony. Slighly less so for Canon. Significant for Nikon.

Urbex Mark is right. Sony stock moves on Playstation, entertainment, even financial services offerings. The stock market doesn't care about Sony ILCs because it's such a small part of their business.

Less than 50% of NIkon's revenue comes from it's camera division. It's main money makers are industrial and medical equipment.
They make the silicone lithography equipment that actually manufactures computer chips. So I don't think they'll be going out of business any time soon.

The only risk that they or any company has is that the camera division be split off ala OM Systems. I'd say that's much more of a risk in a company where the camera division is a small percentage of their total revenue.

Here's an observation from another site:
"Halting production of a camera is not a unusual scene; however, it is unusual when the camera is Sony's best-selling one among Japanese offline resellers for quite a while. I guess the APS-C cameras don't really make enough profit for the Big 3 anymore when the chip availability is tight and price is hiking... and they'd rather put those available chips in higher end models."

We are seeing what I call the "Leica-fication" of the camera market. Everything is moving upscale. And this global health crisis has only accelerated that trend.

Look at the world of HiFi if you want to know where this is headed. What will remain will be high priced specialist products, as well as of course the pro level equipment.

At the store I work at, the ZV-E10 sells very well. Canon and Nikon don't have a direct competitor to this camera at its price point.

@Kerensky97
Chip shortage is predicted to last well into 2023. If a cam (any cam) stays out of production that long it might be not worthwhile to re-launch it at all. Another concern is ZV-E10's margin.. could be too low to keep it going. We'll see.

They were in a tough spot to start with and didn't have much of a choice, since they didn't have a large DSLR userbase who could just use adapters till the native lineup filled out.

@Thoughts R Us
You could argue that the open mount is what took them from blip in the camera market to an established player. In which case it was wildly successful. While they're having trouble moving product right now, everybody is having the same issue.
Overall I think there are more people that go with Sony cameras because of their open mount than there is revenue lost because of it. Once you see them cutting back on quality in their lenses and becoming a "body only" manufacturer you'll know they're hurting, but so far that isn't close to happening.

@kerensky97: I agree...I think Sony made the move they had to in order to become more competitive in the market. Open mount was the right choice.

But now, I wonder if they are paying a price. Not to say it still wasn't worth it for them, but as an established player what does it cost them?

We pay attention on these forums to mostly cameras, but to any camera company the lens sales are important as well.

Also, look at the A1. It achieves it max burst rate only with certain Sony lenses. Third party lenses get to 15 fps burst at most. So are we starting to see Sony ever so gently throttle back on third party support?

M43 mount launched more cameras this year than EF, RF, EF-M combined.

StoneJack. The truth is you are a Nikon shill and don’t have any information about what you speak.

Such nonsense… The only numbers we actually have is the revenue for the camera division and it has been increasing for the 2 last quarters. Not only compared to last year but also compared to 2019 (pre corona).
You find that information here:
https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/IR/library/presen/er/pdf/21q2_supplement.pdf

Mike,
your Sony from April 1st, 2022 will be renamed and reorganized.

@StoneJack - People like contaminated every photo community on the net with its fanboyism and payed lies campaign. When is enough? Why don't you just hop off to your cult at NR and leave everyone alone. Its sad really...

@justmeMN It’s true regarding profit and units sold but for revenue they still report separate numbers for the different segments within Electronic Products & Solution.

It is indeed difficult to know with Sony exactly how well financially their camera division is doing. They blend it in with other products, and even have moved it to a different division within the company a while ago.

I assume you were joking but in case you weren't, Sony camera division is profitable. And with their current great momentum I don't see why this would stop.

Sure, they are somewhat impacted by the chip shortage like everybody else, but to me they are managing the situation much better than companies like Canon.

C) Those models profit margin not enough for shareholders.

Nothing has been discontinued. They are not taking orders because of the chip shortage.

Forever not taking orders = discontinued
Only time will telling the truth.

"Forever not taking orders = discontinued"

This is not what was said. Where is the word forever in this quote?

"They are not taking orders because of the chip shortage."

It is dishonesty to claim people said something they did not say.

It wasn’t always like this. There was a time when you had to prove that you are an active working professional in order to become a member. Dpreview did away with that, opened the flood gates, and the trolling became rampant

I have been a “member” for 20 years and don’t recall any such qualification for membership.

f1point4andbethere
Member since 2005. To my knowledge being a professional photographer has never been a requirement on DPR.

MikeRan
That would be a good thing. What annoys me is calling out someone for being a fan boy or Troll will get you a warning but being a fan boy or Troll is alright.

You might not remember, but it was the case. At least for my og account (xerojay, or XeroJay, or a different one I lost years ago lol) back when I registered it about two decades ago, I had to.

f1point4andbethere
You must be thinking about some other camera site, not DPR. Another possibility was DPR had a separate membership area for professionals. Amateurs have always been welcome.

Ah okay I just figured out what the requirement was; when I first registered back in 2001, dpreview didn’t allow web based email users (hotmail, gmail, yahoo, etc). I had a hotmail back then, so they made me provide my website showing that I was a working photographer.
See here (from 2001): https://www.dpreview.com/articles/9945516487/registrationcompulsory

What’s funny is they thought there was a lot of flaming and trolling in 2001.

f1point4andbethere
There was no requirement there to be a working photographer, just that you have a legitimate eMail address. The requirements listed are still true today but since so many people use web-based email services today that requirement must have been dropped.

"As of Friday 2nd of November, we will require all forums members who wish to post messages to register. We will no longer allow anonymous postings. Registration is a straightforward process which simply requires you to sign-up with a valid email address. Once registered your access to the forums and posting becomes transparent thanks to the 'remember my password' feature.

It turns out that ignorance, and toxicity will meet your membership requirements -no matter how steep.
Witness the last two American Presidential elections

Yes let’s delete anyone we don’t agree with, that’s the fascist way ! And who audits the fact checker ? Keep in mind in this day and age anyone can create a free email account, easily change their IP and create a new account in 5 minutes !

Is that what you did?

I don't think this tells us anything at all about brand mentality or market position, since we obviously have no insight about what's happening at these companies, or what tough decisions they are forced to make.

Lol Sony doesn’t dominate any market. I have yet to see one Sony body used at any photo walks, weddings, sporting events in the past 2 years. Maybe it’s popular overseas but here in America all I still see is Canon and Nikon and occasionally Fuji.

@wats0n must be blind?

@Funny Valentine - "I think this is a good indicator that Sony dominates the higher end mirrorless market..."

This is quite a naïve or wishful statement. What this means is that Sony has a serious problem with the arrival of the R3 and Z9 and has to prioritise where there's risk to losing market share in high-end equipment. I expect this will have a big impact on Sony's overall market share and will probably reveal where they're really at competition wise. Sony have been over supplying in low-end products in order to push the numbers up but that strategy has to change now.

Also, Sony have been losing FF market share continuously since Canon and Nikon entered that market in 2018 and there seems to be no stopping it.

wats0n
I live in the US and while Canon dominates Sony and Nikon are close together in second place. I haven't seen a Fuji in years. What that shows is the subjective experiences of any individual are totally useless.

@Matt_007

When Nikon and Canon entered the FF mirrorless market they grew it, so Sony hasn't 'continued to lose market share' as you put it, they've actually been leading FF sales since 2018. The R5 has been a great success for Canon but doesn't sell in A7III numbers due to its high cost.

It's hard to know what's going on with the R3 and Z9, but crucially the A1 launch was cloaked in secrecy and Nikon launched the D6 last year, yet one year later has a camera to rival the A1. It looks very much like there was a collaboration between Sony and Nikon at Canon's expense. A stronger Nikon benefits Sony.

As much as Sony would hate to lose sales of its A6xxx cameras it still has compact models available at the lower end for new users and can satisfy most enthusiast shooters with the A7c/A7III. It's obviously vital to provide steady production of the A7IV, as this is likely to be the best selling FF camera over the next few years.

At this point we don't know who the actual leader is in mirrorless or FF mirrorless. All indicators seem to point to Sony and Canon being very close in market share. Taking into account all cameras, Canon leads.

Sony has lost market share in FF mirrorless, by definition. At one point they had 100%. Now they have far less than that with the competition of Nikon and Canon.

The overall camera market unfortunately has continued to shrink, along with the overall mirrorless market. This is due to smartphones.

At this point all camera companies are looking to move upscale, to make up for decreasing unit sales with higher margin products. Also, the market is being gobbled up from below by smartphones and their increasing capabilities.

@Thoughts R Us

We do know who the overall leader is FF (both mirrorless and DSLR) - it's Sony. For Sony not to be the overall leader in FF, the A7III would have had to have stopped selling and cameras like the R5 and 5D4 would have had to outsell its original number by several times.

In fact the A7III sales have never declined significantly. Last months BCN chart shows that it's still at #19 and #30 despite having been replaced.

"Sony has lost market share in FF mirrorless, by definition. At one point they had 100%. Now they have far less than that with the competition of Nikon and Canon."

That's not how market share works. When Nikon and Canon entered the FF mirrorless market in 2018 they expanded it by 169% according to BCN. https://www.bcnretail.com/market/detail/20190607_123340.html

If you look at their table, Sony is on around 58% of the FF mirrorless market, Nikon circa 11% and Canon 29%. Since the market grew by 169% Sonys sales went down by just 2% (58x1.7= 98).

You basically confirmed what TRU said, that by definition Sony's market share in FF mirrorless dropped when the competition entered the market. That's exactly how market share works. Absolute sales numbers are different, as you point out; it's even possible to increase sales and still lose market share.

@Revenant

When people talk about Sony losing market share they mean sales. This isn't an investment forum.

@Revenant

When people talk about Sony losing market share they mean sales. This isn't an investment forum.

@RubberDials: when people talk about market share, they mean market share.

So you admit you were wrong with your definition of market share, and now seek to try to explain that away by trying to read peoples minds as to what they meant.

Also your article is from 2019, before the R5/R6 launched, and just as Canon and Nikon were beginning to get their footing in the market. So your data is hopelessly outdated.

Of course in the total camera market, Canon dominates over Sony.

@Funny Valentine
What? And with what evidence do you have for these claims? The M50, M50 ii, M200, SL3 are impossible to order through all major US retailers. And it has been like this for almost two months now.

The only low end APS-C cameras available are the T8i, T7, and the M6 ii (and only in silver). Even then, the price point of the T8i and M6 ii are beyond what most entry customers want to pay anyway. So it's just the T7, and finally within this last week you can order the T7 2 lens kit when it has been out-of-stock across all retailers for nearly a whole year.

How do I know this? Because I sell cameras, and observe the other retailers.

@Thoughts R Us

I wasn't wrong about anything. It's completely meaningless to say Sony has lost market share unless you are implying they's lost business, which is what you were doing. Otherwise you are just saying that Nikon and Canon also make cameras in the same space.

My data isn't 'hopelessly outdated', it shows exactly what happens when other competitors enter a market. The R5/6 launch is only relevant if Sony users all switched back to Canon but we know they didn't do that because people don't switch - it's a myth. You told me a hundred times.

Canon leads Sony in aps-c sales, but not FF. When mirrorless reaches tipping point all the rebel DSLR kits will disappear and those customers will be shaken out amongst all brands. Canon's big percentage lead will vanish overnight. You'll have to do back-to-back shifts on here to spin it positively.

It's often better to have a shrinking market share in a growing market than a growing market share in a shrinking market. In the case of mirrorless, it's DSLRs that are suffering sales decreases.

@RubberDials: you were totally wrong. You equate market share with sales, and that is not at all what it means. You would be laughed out of any serious business discussion at any company.

You then claim to know what I was thinking, when it was clear that I meant market share.

As to FF MILC, neither you nor I know market share data. And yes the R5/R6 did affect market share, as they draw into the market many existing Canon DSLR owners who were waiting into the sidelines. That impacts market share, if you understand what that really means.

So your reasoning is totally off as well. Of course you will not admit you were wrong, but all can see for themselves...

Ha ha - you've done it again!

"And yes the R5/R6 did affect market share, as they draw into the market many existing Canon DSLR owners who were waiting into the sidelines. That impacts market share, if you understand what that really means."

New buyers coming into the market and choosing Canon doesn't hurt Sony! They are new buyers and are growing the market. For Sony to loose money Sony buyers would have had to migrate to Canon, which doesn't happen, as you've explained multiple times - 'people don't switch'.

@Rubberdials
You do understand that the number of ILC cameras being sold has been shrinking every year since 2012 right.
Sonys share of the FF mirrorless section of that market was 100%. It is no longer 100% since Canon and Nikon entered the market, which means they have lost market share as a percentage of FF mirrorless cameras sold. Its basic maths.
There is no comprehensive data available on the unit numbers or value of FF mirrorless cameras sold worldwide, so you are speculating when saying that the market size has increased or if it has, who has seen the lions share of that increase. None of the manufacturers release that data and no-one else does either, not BCN, CIPA, or anyone else.
CIPA data show value per unit shipped has increased, which points to an increase in higher end sales, but there is no breakdown by model or manufacturer.

Rubber is always wrong so ?

@zxarr
As a percentage of the market DSLR's are shrinking and have been for years. Mirrorless took over as the larger a couple of years ago. Canon has not lost its share of the DSLR market, but that market is snaller. According to Canons reports they have maintained their share of the overall camera market which suggests a transition of Canon users from their DSLR's to mirrorless and / or new users choosing Canon. As I mentioned earlier there is no comprehensive breakdown of worldwide camera sales, although a few years ago Sony claimed that they had become no.1 in FF sales in one specific quater, in the smallprint that claim was based on a survey of sales carried out by Sony. They have not to my knowledge repeated that claim since. BTW, although ILC camera sales by unit have been shrinking (albeit nowhere near as fast as compact cameras) by value they are not dropping at the same rate, which again suggests a move to higher end bodies.

@Yxa

Don't forget to ask Father Christmas for a new joke book - your insults have been very poor this year.

Don’t forget to buy a book about camera tech, Rubber, not all information should be had from Sony marketing materials
You’ll might learn something one day

See what I mean?

Get me the book on 'camera tech' and I'll underline some sections for you to read.

Like here where you said I was wrong that the D6 wouldn't have IBIS:
"Why wouldn't the D6 have ibis"
https://www.dpreview.com/news/1462538609/sony-a9-ii-has-a-refined-design-and-more-pro-oriented-features?comment=6156938808

Or here where you hilariously thought Sony's ability to customise the inactive AF point was the same as the point changing colour when it achieved focus:
"The Nikon D3-D5 have focus points that are black but change colour to red when acquiring focus, so Sony isn’t industry first." 😂
https://www.dpreview.com/videos/0481323677/dpreview-tv-sony-a7r-iv-sneak-peek?comment=7649020036

Or here where you didn't know that the D810 needed to lock the mirror up to use EFCS:
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonic-lumix-dc-s1r-review?comment=2614153733

Order the joke book and the 'camera tech' book at the same time and you'll save on postage.

Its interesting how canon has no issues in losing dslr market but sony somehow is in bad poisition in losing some market share in increasing market.

Obviously if canon dslr users are now buying canon mirrorless then they will reflect as mirrorless market share for canon.

This somehow is saying that sony losing market share but canon is okay.

Some people will do anything to justify things for their brand.

@zaar
At the peak of the camera market over 100 million compact cameras and 20 million ILC's (the vast majority of which were DSLR's) were sold per year.
Today compact camera sales have been largely replaced by smartphones and the ILC market is heading south of 5 million.
The split between mirrorless and DSLR's last year was somewhere around 60/40. The split between mirrorless and DSLR's is widening, but the market as a whole is still shrinking.
Canon & Nikon have been transitioning into FF mirrorless, a market previously held 100% by Sony. By definition Sony has lost market share. Canon & Nikon are replacing their DSLR market share with Mirrorless market share. Canon in particular seem to be doing this well as they have maintained their overall share of the camera market despite selling fewer DSLR's to the point that their share of the mirrorless market now almost matches Sonys. If you take your Sony tinted glasses off for a moment you might see better.

I have not seen the numbers on what popular is, but tend to think of the smartphones as popular, dedicated cameras as niche .
I would not blame Sony if they continued their suspension of the APSC and budget FF. I’m sure they don’t make that much money when compared with the premium range. Further Fuji and canon do APSC so well.
If I was an investor , I would not touch dedicated cameras with a barge pole, the big money and the big R&D is in smartphones, the true best sellers

I have not seen the numbers on what popular is, but tend to think of the smartphones as popular, dedicated cameras as niche .
I would not blame Sony if they continued their suspension of the APSC and budget FF. I’m sure they don’t make that much money when compared with the premium range. Further Fuji and canon do APSC so well.
If I was an investor , I would not touch dedicated cameras with a barge pole, the big money and the big R&D is in smartphones, the true best sellers

Mikho
That doesn't make logical sense. If there was a demand shortage they would still be in stock.

@RubberDials: I agree with you that the ZV-E10 seems to be a popular camera. But when I remarked in an earlier thread on this article that this shows the seriousness of the chip shortage, because Sony is halting production of a popular model, your fellow Sony user @mikegt countered that this is not a popular model, only a "niche" model, and so it's no big deal.

You may want to have a talk with him ;)

So I believe my point stands: this is one more indicator of the depth and breadth of the chip shortage. I don't think it was an easy decision for Sony to halt production of this model, because it does seem popular.

@Thoughts R us

Why would I want 'to have a talk with mikegt'? I'm not responsible for what he writes or thinks. He's a big boy - I'm sure he can manage his own thoughts and words.

The a7RIII (which I own) is not the equivalent to an a7Rc. Totally different concept.

@Nielk Mike

The chances of a camera you just thought up in your mind hitting the shelves have always been low. :)

The A7c was designed to appeal to A6xxx shooters and move them over to FF, there's never been any suggestion of a ≈42mp sensor version, and it doesn't really fit the 'concept', to borrow your term.

An a7c with the 42MP sensor is not something that came up in just my mind. There have been a couple of folks wishing for it. The a7c is way beyond a camera that is only meant to move a6000 users over. It has Fuji x-pro3 potential. Fits the concept of small but powerful just fine.

@Nielk Mike

Who said anything about A6000 users - I said A6xxx users. The A6400 and A6600 are extremely powerful cameras.

The use of the A6100-style grip, no front dial and one card slot are indicators that the camera is not aimed at the same users as A7+ bodies.

What I've used or can imagine has no bearing on to whom a manufacturer targets a camera.

Imagination and practical experience with the camera have a lot to do with the ability to try and understand what audience a manufacturer has in mind. A lot.

It's not a secret or a mystery who the A7c is aimed at. But follow the narrow road to the deep north if you want.

@mikegt - No, you don't see it. You can't, 'cause it ain't there.

@Photo_AK

"No, you don't see it. You can't, 'cause it ain't there."

Canon announces an 'up to six month delay' on orders and it's the chip shortage. Sony announces delays of some of the best selling cameras in the industry and it's them ditching products.

What else would you call that other than trolling?

Or do you think that people don't know how well Sony's mirrorless cameras sell?

Photo_AK

Troll. Unless you have data to back it up you shouldn't be posting such Sony hate drivel.

It's just chip shortage. Sony holds onto product lines forever. If they're still selling the 2014 RX100 mk3 (current version is the mk7) then they'll hold onto a well selling blogger camera longer than 5 months.

Photo_AK
Postponing and suspending new orders is essentially the same thing. The difference is Sony is honest about it while Canon is giving false hope the product will be available in 6 months. Sony is smart. With Canon, if people keep ordering in the hopes the camera will be available in 6 months it could create a backlog of orders that will take 6 more months to fill. It may actually be because there are a lot more current orders of the Sony camera than the Canon. This is common sense. The Canon may not have many orders in the pipeline so they want to build up a backlog while the Sony already does.

Go order the R3 now then.

Photo_AK
No mention of Cancelling any orders. You added that yourself. Suspending is by definition a temporary measure. Here's what a dictionary says;

"suspend
[səˈspend]
VERB
Temporarily prevent from continuing or being in force or effect.

Sony Semi conductor and Sony camera are two totally separate companies and both are very successful.

> Eventually Sony will only be selling sensors.

Eventually 100% of everything in a Canon camera will be made by someone else, instead of it being 90% as it is now.

I think to bring them good luck they should rebrand the photo division Vaio...

I keep hoping that this childish anti-brand trolling will disappear but I guess I'm dreaming.

"The main factor driving this chip shortage is very fast growth though."

Actually, PL is onto something. The chip shortage was starting to happen before the world problems. The world health problem just accelerated it.

The point is not so much growth of the camera industry, but growth of the demand for items using electronic components. The industry supplying all sorts of silicon chips and other electronic components is now in more demand than ever. And camera companies do have to compete against non-camera items for some components and component manufacturing capabilities.

In other industries we've seen this too...that part of any shortage is simply driven by a surge in demand. The world health problem reshaped consumer behavior. It suppressed demand in some areas, but increased it in others.

No, Zero is saying that if it were any other brand making this announcement, the Sony internet army would be declaring the demise of that company.

ZeroOne01
Still more childish anti-Sony trolling. Why don't you grow up? Canon is delaying some of their cameras because of chip shortages and I don't see any Sony Fans making that claim.

m_black
Canon is delaying the R3 because of the chip shortage. Are any Sony fans saying that Canon is on the verge of bankruptcy because of that?

Read the discussion on the Canon R3 recent announcement. @mikegt is all over that discussion making similarly outrageous claims against Canon.

He even raised the suggestion that the only reason that Canon had any R3's shipped to customers is because they had been "hand assembled"...which, yes, is rather puzzling, since hand assembly doesn't solve a parts shortage, and is not really feasible with these type of items.

MikeGt is no more off the wall re: Sony as 0101 is Re:Nikon.

TRU: Thank-you for lying about what I actually said.

Here is what Canon actually said: You are out of luck if you want their flagship R3 before the second half of 2022.

This is what I am actually saying: This is an epic failure on Canon's part, considering that this is the only camera they released in 2021 and how they, and trolls like you, hyped it to the heavens.

Funny how, for Sony fans, anyone doesn’t drink the Sony kool-aid is a troll.

Nope. Just you and guys like you.

@zxaar
You have a typo.
Matched should be Exceeded.

Besides the A1 is OVERPRICED.

0101 Looking through your posting history I kinda wonder if you actually have anything of value to add to the discussion. Like ever. Seriously your comments are “Nikon’s great”. “Everything else sucks” and a bunch of one liner useless comments usually trying to stoke something or attack someone.

Seriously wonder if you have anything of value to say.
Perhaps a little self reflection is in order. (And before you say look in the mirror feel free to check the last few pages of my posting history.)

ZeroOne01
The Nikon D6 is the same price as the A1. Is that overpriced as well?

Little development doesn't mean it wasn't selling, price is still a big motivating factor and APSCs are a cheap entry point that does almost everything the full frame can.

Price is also the biggest problem for APS-C as for the manufacturers offering them. APS-C is the typical high volume low profit margin product.
The 'high volumes' these days is doubtful and so puts profitability under pressure. There is a clear shift visible in sales numbers from APS-C to larger format cameras. It is by far not 2014 any longer.

In manufacturing costs the difference these days is less than 65 dollars per unit between APS-C and Full Frame yet Full Frame cameras sell for many hundreds of dollars more. Its clear where the money these days is.

@Francis85
Glab to hear FF sensor so cheap on statement "difference these days is less than 65 dollars per unit between APS-C and Full Frame yet " 😛

No wonder Nikon Z5 (FSI FF sensor with IBIS and weather seal) sell $999 during Black Friday sales.

Forest dream there is a difference in retail price and manufacturing costs. Those are two whole different things. Just for you to remember.

If you think they are related 1 to 1 then you have to learn something over cost price, retail price and marketing.

But your example is perfectly suited to tell why manufacturers these days rather sell you a full frame camera over an APS-C / MFT camera.

If the APS-C camera eg. has a cost price of let's say 435,- and the FF camera has a cost price of let's say 500,-. While the retail price of that 435,- APS-C camera may be 750,- and the FF camera might be sold for 1000,- at a retailer.

What you think earns more... A 315 dollar a profit or a 500 dollar profit per unit? I know what camera I would rather be selling. Yet only costing you 65 dollars more to make, distribute and market.

It is not about what's better as that's arbitary.
It is all about what makes you more money as a manufacturer per unit.

Everyone is impacted, but companies can prioritize what they need. If Canon really wanted the chips, they would just put the order in and pay more for each chip and get a larger batch. Production hasn't stopped, priorities have.

Sony is telling people to get one of the cameras available now if you want it, because they are not making any from here on.

Canon is telling people that if they order now it may take 6 months for the product to be received. Do you see the difference here?

Electronics don't take 6 months to make. Is Canon collecting orders so they can make just enough cameras and not be stuck with extra stock it can't sell?

Scrup. Some cases you can pay an expedite fee to “skip the line” and get your stuff faster. But sometimes you can’t. Canon, Nikon, and even Sony, are small guys compared to some of the big guys like Nvidia, Apple, AMD, and some others. These suppliers are all on allocation and trying to keep their most important customers from going elsewhere at the expense of the smaller customers. And even a 100% expedite fee (pay double) isn’t enough many times to get the priority

So the crazy conspiracy here is that Canon is withholding orders to not sell cameras? They are sitting on their hands and once they get an order of 100 cameras, they put in an order of 100 chips and they just make those cameras; no more, no less.

Orders come in and upper management is all 'let's just stare at the wall and not sell cameras until we hit a certain number because scrup said so.'

Scrup, tell us more.

I think it is more likely that it is not economical for Canon to prioritize the R3.
Canon had 1 job this year. It was the R3. Probably the only year in digital history that Canon only launched one new body and they couldn't fulfill.

Thank you. Yeah I think the A1 is priced a bit high especially now that the Z9 is a almost as much camera for $1000 less. Then again the R3 makes the A1 seem like a better deal. Either way, neither of those cameras are going to be availed for quite some time, and that was my original point. As someone who makes a living using his camera full time, availability is much more important than price.

Edit: Oh just realized you are trolling. I wouldn’t have bothered to reply, had I realized you’re here for immature reasons

@mikegt
Hey fanb0y troll, nice try distorting what they're actually saying. They're actually shipping R3s to people that already have preordered, they're saying more if you preorder now or have in the recent days, it might take up to 6 months. How can you read out the're unable to ship when they actually are shipping these?

Why do you have to always make up things?

Phone makers hoard the chips and pass the cost to the consumers. Look at how crazily expensive phones have become

Sales of dedicated cameras have unfortunately been in a steep decline for several years, due to the emergence of the smartphone as the most popular form of camera.

The market is not shrinking - it is stagnant at around 10 million bodies per year. Only point and shoot cameras have lost their market.

The market is what it is and it won't go any worse. People said the same stuff about automobiles - yet, have affordable models been phased out? Is every manufacturer making $50,000 cars that have "higher margins"?

This entire hypothesis where market shrinks continuously and only $2500 plus full frame cameras will be made is so ridiculous, it is equivalent to doomsday fearmongering. There is no future in which $1000 camera market will ever be phased out, nor will the market shrink without stopping. In fact, camera sales (entry and mid level segment) in Asia, Africa and other emerging economies is expected to increase.

@kamerakiri

All I can say is good luck finding an affordable car. Around here most of those cars are gone. That doesn't mean 50K cars but it does mean all the older simpler budget models not being pushed by the car companies. Nobody can make the fleet fuel standards selling those cars. Throw the chip shortage on top and of course the companies are using scarce chips in more profitable models.

BTW Sony locally is discounting the Sony Alpha 7 IV . Doesn't sound like Sony has a wide spread chip problem.

Regardless of chip shortage or whatever, the truth is that the low and middle-tier camera segment is pretty much dead thanks to cellphones, so makes sense nobody is really rushing to get new chips.

Maybe in 5-7 years, we are only going to see camera makers releasing top-of-the-line bodies who can clearly separate themselves from camera phones.

I sold my A6400 and all the lenses and moved to A7C (I prefer it over the regular A7 because of the viewfinder position in the corner). I am very happy by the choice, so many lenses available for the FF system. So it works :-)

@Puppy2007
How many 50mm or 35mm lenses did you buy?

Consider easy decision when compare to worry impact $2500 Sony a7 IV production.

@TRU after all, selling one A1 is still better than selling 10 apsc bodies

Sony executives couldn't care less about APS users. If it is not good for their business they simply abandon the wagon and jump to something else. That's their modus operandi.

> The ZV-E10 apparently was a good selling camera for Sony

You should of read the web page you linked to a little more carefully. If you had, you would of seen that it was reporting only sales made on the shopping site "Yodobashi.com" and Yodobashi's chain of camera stores. Sales made by one retailer does not indicate sales as a whole in all markets.

On the other hand, the Petapixel article BackToNature1 linked to described ZV-E10 sales as "poor".

In any case, the ZV-E10 is at best a niche camera, just one of many lower-cost models that Sony makes and sells.

The Canon R3, on the other hand, was the ONLY camera Canon released this year, their most expensive mirrorless model ever and hyped by Canon to the heavens. Their recent admission that they can't deliver their ultra-hyped flagship model in volume until the second half of next year has to be the biggest business failure by any camera company in recent memory.

> Foskito

Just what are you referring to ? Sony continues to support the smaller sensor market as well as full-frame, evidence of this is that they released the ZV-E10 in 2021. Canon on the other hand did not introduce a single small sensor model in 2021 - only the $6,000 FF R3, which they just announced they will not be able to deliver in volume until the second half of 2022.

@mikegt: "Sony continues to support the smaller sensor market as well as full-frame, evidence of this is that they released the ZV-E10 in 2021."
Of which Sony just ceased production. That's not much support.

mikegt, make up your mind. OTOH you argue that the ZV-E10 is a poor selling niche product, and then on OTOH you argue that it supports the entire APS-C market for Sony.

But again, it's funny that you cite the model that Sony literally just stopped making as evidence that Sony is supporting that market.

Mikegt, i have to admire your persistence and passion towards hating and finding faults with Canon. Even though i did not reply in any of your previous comments especially in the R3 6-month delay article I've read all of it. The delays affect EVERYONE, to varying degrees. I've already waited 7 and half months for my new car.

Even if your allegations are partially true, your frustrations with the R3 is a first world problem at best. Amidst the pandemic where people are losing jobs and debt-ridden you are complaining over not being able to buy a camera that costs 6 grand as soon as possible.

EXkurogane:

You misunderstand where I'm coming from. I don't hate Canon but I do hate the Canon trolls that endlessly and mindlessly spew pro-Canon propaganda here. I see my role as trying to provide balance, to counteract their hatred of Sony and other camera companies that that are not Canon with actual facts.

For the record, I admire what Nikon, Panasonic, Sony and Fujifilm are doing. I used to admire Canon as well and do own several Canon cameras, but in the past few years their business practices, whether it be shipping cameras that overheat, relentlessly stripping out features that compete with their pricey Cinema line, being slow to switch to FF mirrorless or announcing a flagship that they will not be able to ship in volume until the second half of next year, these are all things that are difficult to admire.

Yes these are all "first world" problems, but then this is a forum to talk about cameras, not world hunger or the pandemic.

mikegt, TRU said it best.

"evidence of this is that they released the ZV-E10 in 2021..."

And they dumped it also in 2021.

I studied this site. I'm not sure what they mean by the R3 being "#1 seller". It's also shown as being out-of-stock everywhere, so perhaps it's "#1" in pre-orders ranked by financial value, not by number of units ordered or shipped? After all, a $6,000 camera is not going to be at the top of any sales list by *quantity*, unless Japanese consumers are much more wealthy that American ones.

Showing the ZV-E10 at "#3" is also hard to understand. How could a specialized vlogging camera be at the top of any list, unless vlogging is the #1 hobby in Japan ?

I think we need a better understanding of what their rankings actually mean.

If the ZV-E10 really is a top seller, then it's a sure thing that Sony will bring it back at least in Japan.

The list is compiled as sales volume. The R3 is permanently out of stock because it is selling out as fast as it is being re-stocked, the list shows Canon is still shipping out plenty.

That the ZV-E10 is outselling, say, the Nikon fc is perhaps mystifying, until you consider it is by far the cheapest camera in the top 20. Budget mirrorless cameras seem to have wiped off the map.

> The R3 is permanently out of stock because it is selling out
> as fast as it is being re-stocked

What proof do you have of that ? It makes little sense, if it is always out of stock then it can't possibly be the top seller. Also Canon is saying that if ordered today you will not get an R3 until the second half of 2022, which directly contradicts the fairy tale you are trying to sell us.

Obviously if it is actually #1 in sales, then we are talking pre-orders, not shipments, and financial value, not quantity (a pre-order for one $6,000 camera is the same sales value as six orders for $1,000 cameras), and if it stays on the list it is because the pre-orders are not getting filled. That is consistent with Canon's recent announcement.

This was not about Canon, but Sony's abandonment of the APS segment.

In fact, the whole camera industry will migrate towards more sophisticated and high-end models, the low tier is already doomed by cellphones. Only pros and serious amateurs will keep spending money on dedicated camera gear.

@Foskito
Medium-format age coming soon. Please drop cheaper FF line 😛

Sony is not abandoning the APS-C camera market.

On the other hand, it probably is time to think about joining the full-frame revolution. Remember, electronic camera sensors did not start out being sub-full frame because that was better, they started that way due to cost and the technological limitations of the time. Small sensors are not going away, but for the best quality and light-gathering ability bigger is usually better.

"Small sensors are not going away, but for the best quality and light-gathering ability bigger is usually better."

Remember that in a few years when medium format becomes the new full frame. Fuji will be there.

We already see many FF users adding a Fuji MF camera to their kit; maybe even replacing FF. The only reason to need FF now is for high speed action shooting. The rest can be done with medium format.

@mikegt
"Sony is not abandoning the APS-C camera market."

How do you know?

This is exaclty what A-mount users kept saying and lived in denial for many years.

Eventually Sony will be only selling sensors.

@Yxa
Please learn from Olympus imaging division history, imaging division may sold if didn't earn enough profit margin (regardless profit earn by other division).

The last lens Canon released for EF-M was in September 2018.

It's dead.

Sony A-mount is more dead than Canon EF-M. I realise that ‘dead’ does not require a qualifier. The tragedy is that the A-mount cameras had agreeable ergonomics, unlike the unlikeable Sony bricks to come.

iPhone 1 month behind on shipments, too!

Sony sales have always been over inflated. I mean they have so much overstock they are still selling A7IIs and A6000s. They can’t move that inventory.

Sony has always kept making and selling older high end models at reduced prices, placing them as midrange products. That's their policy, not unsold inventory.

Watson is trolling. He knows that.

Not trolling at all. It’s a fact. Sony sales have been steadily dropping. Yes there is a global chip shortage, but Sony is using this an excuse to cut dead weight from its lineup. Sony counts each camera sitting in a dusty warehouse at B&H or Bestbuy as a “sale” even though a consumer never purchased it. I know for a fact BestBuy has an overstock of dated Sony cameras they have been unable to move for years.

Every time someone points the obvious, the sony crowd gets back accusing of trolling.

“ Just two weeks after announcing it would no longer take orders for its a7 II series, a6400 and a6100 camera systems…”

How do you read this and come to the conclusion that Sony have left over inventory that they can’t sell? If they had a ton of left over stock, they would be happy to take orders for it.

Stop talking nonsense and you’ll stop being called out for trolling.