OPPO to announce 5x zoom smartphone technology at MWC

http://cdn.gsmarena.com/imgroot/news/17/02/oppo-5x-smartphone-cam/-728/gsmarena_002.jpg

Seems I was wrong
-> https://mobile.twitter.com/jmcomms/status/836147779416240128
Looks like a periscope-style optical 5x zoom
Awaiting Oppo PC at 14:00 local Barcelona time.

5 months agopermalink

EskeRahn

...And if the already tiltable (OIS) prism is 45 degree, they could use the same periscope technique for a front camera by tilting it a full 90 degree.

Of course this would limit the size of the diagonal, due to height issues. But they could have a block of two prisms (pointing up and down) that they could shift in perpendicular to the light-direction.
(This shifting mechanism could perhaps even double as a vibrator...)

5 months ago*permalink

An advert from Oppo leaked
-> https://www.gizmochina.com/2017/02/25/oppo-5x-camera-technology-set-dual-cameras-5x-lossless-zoom/
A loose translation of the advert mentions dual cameras with 5x lossless zoom.

Therefore, it will be something similiar to iPhone 7+, maybe with a higher optical zoom factor and/or higher pixel count for the tele camera.

5 months agopermalink

Let me combine that with a short back-of-the-envelelope computation:

Assume dual camera, with second camera having 3.08x the focal length. Second, assume first camera to be 8MP, second camera to be 21MP (rumored #pixels of new Oppo Find 9 smartphone). This allows for an exact 8MP digital image at 5x zoom, relative to the first camera.

Therefore, this is my educated guess for tommorows announcement:

- Dual camera, 24mm and 74mm FL.
- Dual camera, 8MP and 21MP resp.
- Smooth 5x zoom from 24mm to 120mm with 8MP, via firmware.

Less likely variant:
- Smooth 5x zoom from 28mm to 140mm, using 28mm and 86mm lenses.

Remember, you heard it here first ;)
Moreover, it was my immediate reaction of what Apple could have done with their dual camera approach out of the box. I was surprised they didn't eat that easy cake.

5 months ago*permalink

The weak point for the Oppo approach of course will be:
To keep the 74mm lens flat, it will have a small aperture. Add to it that it will be cropped further 1.62x to reach at 5x overall, you'll see that the remaining equivalent aperture will be tiny. It risks to fall beyond the diffraction limit.

The longer lens on the Apple iPhone 7+ has f/2.8 (rather than f/1.8). Assuming the Oppo uses f/3.5 and a 7.6x crop sensor, the remaining equivalent aperture at 5x would be f/43. The diffraction limit for f/43 is 4MP. Therefore, I already deduced a high probability that the forthcoming Oppo claim will be a false claim. And the reason why Apple sticked at 2x.

5 months ago*permalink

SimenO1

5x zoom or 5x crop&resize?

5 months agopermalink

Parhelic

I thought they just use corephotonics module, claimed 5X zoom also...
http://corephotonics.com/products/hawkeye-camera/

5 months agopermalink

Dean Mindock

I've got an Oppo blu-ray disc player. Is this the same Oppo? If so, the zoom smartphone will be good.

5 months agopermalink

Mike FL

"OPPO Digital is an independently operated division of OPPO. Founded in 2004, it is based in Mountain View, California, United States, It is known for its universal upconverting DVD and Blu-ray Disc players..."

5 months agopermalink

analoggrotto

I do with OPPO had a better presence here in north america. Just want something other than Apple and Samsung.

5 months agopermalink

Halina123

I am looking forward to the official announcement and finding out what all the fuss is about. It may be a genuine breakthrough.

5 months agopermalink

Drive

Probably not. Usually you see these things from a mile away.

5 months agopermalink

tkbslc

I wonder if someone has finally tried putting a periscopic lens design in a phone. Those allow very compact and non-extending lenses For example the Sony TX30 has a 5x zoom that doesn't extend, yet it is only 15mm thick for the entire camera.

5 months ago*permalink

My guess:
According to rumors, Oppo is to announce the Find 9 at MWC which features a 21 MP camera. That's (almost) enough resolution to digitally zoom 5x in 720p HD quality.
So my guess is that this is what all the buzz is about.

5 months ago*permalink

Definitely not. Would damage their reputation.

5 months agopermalink

There are several methods to achieve lossless digital zoom/optical zoom in smartphones.
1. Iphone 7 Plus method (2 cameras with different focal lengths)
2. Light L16 method (up to 150mm) (cameras with different focal lengths, but mirrors make it possible to put lenses with a very long focal length and with a relatively large aperture into a small body)
3. Galaxy K Zoom method (optical zoom)
4. Huawei Mate 9 method / Lumia 1020 method (Many megapixels or more detail through a monochrome sensor)
5. Olympus/Pentax Super resolution mode (achieving more detail by moving the sensor, but I don't know whether this could be built into smartphones)

5 months agopermalink

I forgot the optical zoom method of the Asus Zenfone Zoom (not Zenfone 3 Zoom, I mean the previous phone)

5 months agopermalink

dprived prev

the pixel shift trick used by Olympus/Pentax (and in a certain Hasselblad MF model as well that started doing this before the other two guys) can be done via software too ... in fact, that's where the trick originates from since at least the 1980s, now incorporated into hardware ...

it's a great trick, works well enough too, but doesn't give us true higher resolution anyway!

5 months ago*permalink

Like I said, put multiple lenses with different focal ranges each with its own sensor, overlap the coverage area of each focal lens by at least 50%, reduce (force crop) the resolution of each sensor to half its pixel count to cover for the follow-up 1/2 lens overlap coverage, and you blend all these images via software into one continuing zoom. This is how it can be done. Use bright aperature fixed lenses (3, 4 or more) match it with a newer good 16MP or 20MP good phone sensor, and you can have a seemless zoom phone with a final output of 8MP or 10MP that zooms in and out like a real zoom lens would, matched with the benefits of bright fixed lens design all throughout. All needed is proper computing power to make it possible & true solid state zoom phones are born. But the computing power required to make it truly seamless & perfect, I highly doubt can be put inside a phone relying only on GPU power. Another co-processor will be needed, meaning heat, thickness & poor battery life.

5 months ago*permalink

Alex Permit

Parallax will not be your friend in the solution you mention. Imagine an object, like you subject, blocking something in back, like the background. The sensors will have slightly different views of the subject and background. If you blend the two images together, the subject will have a gohst-like outline as part of the background from one sensor will "bleed" into the image.

Image processing may reduce this effect, at the cost of reduced resolution.

You might as well just "digitally zoom" from one sensor to another and make a hard transition.

5 months agopermalink

Parallax is an issue of the past already. Can be corrected computationally as well along side placing the lenses as near as possible. Huawei already fixed this problem with its new dual lenses phones where they have 2 cameras (one is black and white and the other is color) and both images are merged. No one has complained about parallax issues.. that matter is solved already today.

5 months ago*permalink

Alex Permit

The P9 is a good example of the limitations of the approach. To paraphrase dpreview, it not only captures images from two cameras to provide more light than one, which should lead to lower noise levels, but the monochrome variant can also make do without a color array filter (CFA) which, in theory, should increase image detail. In reality, in terms of detail the P9's bright light performance is decent for a smartphone but not quite up with the best in class, despite the unusual technology. Fine low-contrast textures show blurring through noise reduction and even at base ISO luminance noise is quite noticeable in blue skies.

5 months ago*permalink

LensBeginner

The word "optical" is absent in the press release, so I would wait before getting our hopes up... could still be something à la Pureview.

5 months agopermalink

PureView is a hoax (I own both a Nokia 808 and also the later 1020, that is exponentially worse despite the OIS because the sensor is smaller and it's all just uncontrollable noise), because when you "zoom in" you get VGA size images and there goes all the resolution. To start at 41MP wide and finish at 3MP zoomed in, is "not" a solution and is not anything that can be called a zoom. Its called DIGITAL ZOOM, done. It's nothing.. it's useless. In fact it's a solution that's been around since the days of CCDs VHS camcorders. Call it digital zoom or Nokia calling it Pureview, it's all the same crap.

5 months ago*permalink

LensBeginner

That was my exactly my point...
Are you one of those who believe blindly in press releases? :-/

5 months agopermalink

I've an 808 too. And it still is as good as it gets on a smart phone.
Of course, the comparable zoom factor is about 2x because resolution then is down to a normal 10 MP. But it still is as good as the much more recent iPhone 7+.

5 months agopermalink

ChavasRegal

Zoom Zoom Zoom; the 808 used oversampling to produce 5mp images from the 41mp sensor, essentially using 7 pixels to create 1 'superpixel' as you zoomed in you used less and less pixels for oversampling until you were only using 1pixel per pixel on a 5mp block of the sensor. in no way shape or form is this digital zooming.

5 months agopermalink

DueSouth

ChavasRegal, "using 1pixel per pixel on a 5mp block" is the definition of digital zoom isn't it? It no longer has supersampling and is just a sensor crop. It seems like that's what everyone already said. What would your definition of digital zoom be?

5 months agopermalink

Oversampling or not, that's not the issue. The issue is that you end up with an image of low resolution. That's my point.

5 months agopermalink

LensBeginner

It depends on what you mean by "low resolution".
"Lower", it's a given, but "low"?
40MP and a 2X zoom, thus halving linear resolution and reducing MP count to 1/4 will give you 10MP, plenty for most (cellphone-quality) uses.

5 months ago*permalink

ChavasRegal

I'd class digital zooming as producing images of a lower resolution than the file output where the file is then up-scaled back to the output resolution.
The 808 output 5mp JPG files at 1,2 & 3x magnification unless you were specifically exporting the 41mp raw file.
Also since you could essentially zoom out of a pureview image after the shot was taken you could say the zoomed shots were actually crops.

5 months agopermalink

The only formal definition of digital zoom which makes sense photographically is this one:

A zoom where the equivalent aperture increases proportionally to the zoom factor. Like in 24-72mm/2.8-8.4.

Moreover, it makes clear that not every digital zoom is a bad thing and not every optical zoom is a good one. Rather, the two can become very close to each other.

5 months agopermalink

chipmaster

It matters little who is first, but who gets the features in a product that is widely adopted and used!

OPPO is a huge force in China, for those that have visited, the have a pretty good product that is priced very competitively with respect to Samsung and Apple and their own stand alone stores too.

It'll be interesting what Samsung and Apple's new product have in the photo department.

5 months agopermalink

https://www.asus.com/us/Phone/ZenFone-Zoom-ZX551ML/

Something like this is the way to go:

This is where the new Oppo will probably be like, as Asus left off with a groundbreaking zoom design (including OIS which is really a feat) on a phone with an absurdly bad sensor than no one bought. Oppo is probably betting that most people don't know about the Asus Zoom Phone and surely will make it slimmer, longer zoom range and use a better sensor. There will be no revolution.. Asus did it already and screw-up as they always do. Most people don't know but Oppo is the largest phone manufacturer in China, a huge company ahead of Xiaomi, ZTE, Huawei, Vivo & all other Chinese dudes. If someone has the R&D and manufacturing capabilities to do this right, it's them for sure.

This properly done could kill off everyone else including the iPhone and all look pre-historic. The problem is no one can make such zoom lens with a fast aperture, so it will be a low light disaster. That's the real issue..

5 months ago*permalink

no, the OPPO solution HAS to be more clever than this...the problem with the Asus and similar designs are the slow apertures and they are unavoidable if you want to keep the device relatively slim.

5 months agopermalink

https://www.asus.com/Phone/ZenFone-Zoom-ZX551ML/PixelMaster

Oppo will not be more clever than this. No other way to do this. Impossible to make a bright zoom lens inside a small phone.. it's just the laws of physics. Asus did it all right the first time except the sensor they used:

The only other thing Oppo can do (if the technology & processing are up to par for that, which I doubt) is a continually morphing software solution to blend 3 or 4 or more fixed focal lenses into one final rendered image that can blend one lens to the other as a continuum. That way, fast traditional fixed lenses can be used and no need for any moving parts. Only need multiple lenses each with its own sensor. This is all possible, but highly unlikely anyone is there yet. The computational requirements for seamlessly morphing images of different focal lenses into a flowing zoom in/out final image, are very complex. That may be the final goal for "solid state" zooms. But it's still too soon for that..

5 months ago*permalink

I agree with Lars, a folded optics approach is limited to miniscule if not useless apertures. The Asus has an equivalent aperture of worse than F/32 at the long end and it has so for a reason.

The way to go for smartphones will be camera arrays, both overcoming the focal length and aperture problems. But I don't see Oppo to be a leader here.

5 months agopermalink

No, the Asus Zenfone 3 Zoom has an equivalent aperture of about f/23 (crop factor 8.8 , aperture f/2.6)

No, wrong, the problem is not the laws of physics. The laws of physics make it just harder to achieve what we want. The Light L16 has a small body and can use much brighter lenses (equivalent focal length 150mm +equivalent aperture f/18 and equivalent focal length 70mm + equivalent aperture f/15)

5 months ago*permalink

Sorry, yes the first Asus Zoom had a worse equivalent aperture at the long end.

5 months agopermalink

Asus is the right approach if someone can make the lens brighter (which is difficult because will need to be bigger), or if a much higher sensitivity sensor is used, which is also difficult because will also need to be bigger. These factors go hand in hand, there is no way around this. Smaller is darker, lenses, sensors, pixels.. everything. And smaller is the magic word for phones.. bigger is the enemy:)

5 months agopermalink

Where is this news??? The Asus Zoom Phone did this 2 years ago already with a superslim phone without any unusually big camera protrusion and enclosing a 3x zoom inside. The ONLY reason it failed on sales is that they equipped the phone with an absolutely horrid and dated sensor and the photos were all crap! It only would take them to make the same phone with a good sensor to be a success. Why Asus never updated the phone is a mystery to me, then again, it's a company that I never understood and that only releases half baked products.. blows my mind how anyone would ever buy anything from Asus aside from motherboards which is the only thing they do well. From laptops to phones, I am yet to see ONE Asus product that is a finished concept or actually works well. So most likely is what Oppo will do, is just picking up where Asus left off, making a phone with a slightly longer zoom range within the same zoom lens design, and equipping it with something less than a mediocre sensor to match.

5 months ago*permalink

AngularJS

No news indeed. Casio Exilim CA003 was a regular phone with a 3x optical zoom built in 2009.

5 months agopermalink

No. The Casio Exilim CA003 as later the Samsung Galaxy K Zoom and even more recently the Hasselblad add-on module with 3x zoom for the Motorola Z, are all different ideas as they have tradition barrel zoom lenses like any compact camera or DSLR zoom lens. As my previous comment, Asus was the only one that did this properly already 2 years ago with the first Zoom phone that used an internal flat periscope zoom lens design so the phone is slim like a normal phone and no lens protrudes out when zooming in. That is what for sure the new Oppo phone will be like.

5 months ago*permalink

Olivier GALLEN

It's news.

5 months agopermalink

AngularJS

Oh, didn't know that. It actually seems like a great innovation.

5 months ago*permalink

noirdesir

What would be news if (a) somebody produced a phone with a zoom that was actually a good product and (b) that was actually successful.

We can argue about whether a phone fulfils the first condition but looking at things from the other end, the fact that previous 'zoom phones' didn't get updates or successors pretty much tells us that they were not successful. And they probably weren't successful because they weren't good products.

But maybe more importantly, just because a phone is good or has a good camera, success is far from guaranteed, there are way too many other factors, starting with brand recognition, distribution and promotion. But it all starts with condition (a), without that, very few people will buy a 'zoom phone' over other phones.

5 months agopermalink

the images on the Asus Zenfone Zoom weren't bad because of the sensor, they were bad because of the slower apertures any conventional zoom lens comes with. I am pretty sure OPPO are going to come up with something slightly more clever.

5 months agopermalink

Toselli

Will we move the megapixel war to "x" (focal moltiplication) war?

5 months agopermalink

AngularJS

50x superzooms are coming! :)

5 months agopermalink

Nephi

Does OPPO the phone maker have anything to do with OPPO the Blu-ray/headphone/electronics maker?

5 months agopermalink

Toselli

If I understood correctly the company is obviously the same, but as you point out there are two divisions: one based in China, that focuses on smartphones and related things; the other one is based in the united states and they do audio/video devices.

5 months agopermalink

Yes, I think the same people. Chinese do everything that makes them money.. look at Xiomi, from phones, to tvs, vacuum cleaners and air ionizers. They do it all..

5 months agopermalink

Entropy512

@Nephi - Yup. Carl Pei (now CEO of OnePlus) used to work in Oppo's blu-ray division, then was their VP of the phone division before OnePlus got spun off from Oppo.

(OnePlus constantly insists they're not a spinoff/subsidiary, but if you look at their financials, product history, and staffing - it's clear that they're Oppo's current strategy for the Western market. The Find 7/OnePlus One was the last major flagship to be released under the Oppo name in a Western market, since then - OnePlus serves that market.)

5 months agopermalink

ottonis

I would't hold my breath. Hasselblad made an add-on module with 3x zoom for the Motorola Z, but the lens was very slow, some f/3.5-5.6ish. Add this to a tiny 1/3" sensor. That's maybe good enough for sunny beaches and mointains at noon, but any other scenario of available light will be beyond the capabilities of this add on zoom module.
Oppo did either invent some disruptive new optoelectronic technology or this 5x zoom is going to be slow as hell.

5 months agopermalink

the Hasselblad is 10x zoom and has a 1/2.3" sensor, it is on the same level as a compact camera with the same specs.

5 months agopermalink

cosinaphile

the hassy sensor was a fail the 1 2\3 is too small.... the smallest respectable sensor is the 1 1.7 ... even better and possible in a phone is the 2\3 sensor of 58 sq mm
which gave lovely output on the fuji x30 with 12 mp spread out over its area

5 months ago*permalink

digitallollygag

When this makes it into widespread smartphone production then I can finally retire the Canon ELPH 350HS; the lack of "optical" zoom is the only thing holding me back from switching completely to smartphone camera for casual snapshooting. Just my opinion, I think this will be the final nail in the 1/2.3" sensor point-and-shoot market.

5 months agopermalink

cosinaphile

COOL idea.... longer zooms than this could be made with a right angle zoom ... 5x is a great start... i only hope they pair it with a sensor of at least 35 sq mm

5 months agopermalink

Edgar_in_Indy

I didn't realize OPPO made anything other than high-end Blu-ray players. They seem to be a good company, unusually responsive to customer feedback feature requests for their Blu-ray players (I own one).

5 months agopermalink