Samsung promises to &#39;reimagine the camera&#39; on the Galaxy S9

what i imagine a cellphone sensor should be will never be produced by samsung
they've had many years to do something on the level of panasonic in a short moment of lucidity ... or nokia whet back when they did some amazing sensors
but were ruined as a company by ... well choosing a microsoft os that was unsupported by developers and microsoft itself
.

samsung could do a good 1 1.7 or 2\3 sensor but will not , im guessing ... they will continue down the path of artificiality and computational cartoonery instead

7 months ago*permalink

Androole

"samsung could do a good 1 1.7 or 2\3 sensor but will not , im guessing ... they will continue down the path of artificiality and computational cartoonery instead"

Why not both?

7 months agopermalink

I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST THE exploration of computational methods
to improve photography in ways unimagined

but the sad reality is the cell phone companies that have gutted the camera industry are not interested in paying for a proper sensor ... they want to buy 2 cheap lens\sensor modules and and only" improve" on the computational front ...

7 months agopermalink

The cell phone companies would be very interested if the return on investment is there but you've said nothing about how your dream sensor would help Samsung sell more phones or sell phones at a higher price or both. More than likely your larger sensor would be a disaster because the average cell phone user wouldn't pay for it.

7 months agopermalink

clayton what are you talking about have you considered the price of a good entry level apsc camera and lens
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1266500-DEMO/nikon_1532_d3300_dslr_camera_with.html

heres a nikon for under 400 dollars

a 1 inch sensor or a 2\3 sensor costs a fraction to produce and the lenses are cheaper too

when you consider the price of apple Samsung or google flagships at 800 to 1300 there is no reason of earth why a decent sensor and lens cant be used.... it isnt price at all

there should be a larger sensor used .... panasonics lame attempt ....with weak lens
with one model with a very high price tag and nokias excellent attempt wa s crippled by hitching their wagon to microsoft ... 2 product disasters that have poisioned the marketplace in the minds of the corporations

7 months ago*permalink

Of course it's price... it's always price and until you can make an argument for increasing profits by either selling your larger sensor phones for more money per unit - or - selling more phones because of the larger sensor then your comments are about one thing... what cosinaphile wants in a phone and Samsung, Apple and the rest of us don't care about what you want. Don't get me wrong, I might buy the phone you're talking about with the larger sensor but I'd guess that the majority of people buying those phones today won't and that is what matters.

7 months agopermalink

everything you said is true to an extent .. but its also true that most people are idiots who have a poor grasp of technology

when sony started their mirrorless full frame rise, did other companies see their potential?many tech savy customers flocked to the biggest sensor in a mirrorless camera. it could very well happen with a big 1 inch sensor in a phone ...
if marketed correctly and not abandoned after a single model
if nokia did it again with the greater public awareness among tech literate customers, bonded it to android at a fair price ... it could very well happen this time
its time to put a proper sensor in a phone and possible at current prices
phones from samsung and apple have insanely bloated prices
a proper sensor
WHICH NO ONE CURRENTLY HAS ....PERIOD

cosinaphile does not shoot with a phone ... either [well very rarely ]
i only offer ideas

7 months ago*permalink

Samsung promises to NX customers.....

7 months agopermalink

josh bailey

lol

7 months agopermalink

srados

IPhone trolls...will do what they do best.

7 months agopermalink

josh bailey

but they would also be in competition for "best" with sammy trolls

7 months agopermalink

srados

Our ego, of us "sammys" is less inflated then apple ones. We did not have to pay premium...

7 months agopermalink

Threlly

I rolled my eyes so hard I dislocated my tongue...

7 months agopermalink

GabrielZ

What’s the advantage of having variable aperture on such a tiny sensored camera? Unless it uses a much larger sensor than previous incarnations.

7 months agopermalink

Sho-Bud

Excellent question

7 months agopermalink

Menneisyys

With an 1/2.3" sensor and the rumored (maximal) 1.4 aperture, the DoF can be a bit too shadow for a lot of kinds of shots resulting in a lot of important thing to be out of focus. This even happens on the iPhone with its considerably smaller sensor and smaller aperture. Then, the ability to make the aperture smaller, you can avoid this.

7 months agopermalink

Higgins2002

Maybe when recording movies, to get better suited shutterspeed

7 months agopermalink

No advantage for people who shoot anyways wide open fast lenses in 35mm small format cameras regardless their subjects are mostly out of focus....

7 months agopermalink

Magnus3D

On normal mobile phone cameras you will easily get overexposed photos as the aperture is fixed wideopen. Having the ability to stop down a little when it's too bright outside helps to get a better balanced shot.

7 months agopermalink

Jesse_Just_Him

Me and my gf's selfie always have a shallow DOF blurry background, it sucks~~~ we need F2.4 on a selfie mode to include the background

7 months agopermalink

GabrielZ

From my experience, photos from modern smartphones are rarely if ever overexposed for one thing. Also except when taking close-ups DoF in smartphone photos is nearly always sharp from near to far. So I still don't see the use case for a variable aperture on a small sensor smartphone camera.

7 months agopermalink

technotic

I will reach out to Samsung to discover how they reimagined their camera.

7 months agopermalink

Jostian

just give us a bigger sensor and keep the variable aperture, fancy bokeh processing hokey pokey!

7 months agopermalink

Digital Suicide

Why don't they put a bit bigger sensor in? I don't mind camera module to prone a little bit.

7 months agopermalink

gorditogr

You dont mind, most people do

7 months agopermalink

Menneisyys

Samsungs top phone models have always been having significantly bigger sensors than those of Apple - between 1/2.6" and 1/2.3".

7 months agopermalink

PortableLover

IMO they should put 3 or more cameras on the phone and make the phone thicker (maybe by 1/3") where the lens and sensor are allowing larger optics and sensors (you can still easily slip it into your pocket). Then have one the lenses at different focal length allowing "zooming" and 2 with similar focal lengths to create simulated DOF like what is done already. This could potentially take it to the next level.

7 months agopermalink

gorditogr

Phones should be thin and usable, not bricks

7 months agopermalink

PortableLover

Adding 1/3" inch just where the lens / sensor is (maybe couple of square inches) would make it a "brick"? OK. Sounds like you live in a doll house.

7 months agopermalink

Phones should be thicker and usable.

They are already too thin and slippery. You can't get a good grip to them because they are so slim. You can notice this easy by using a case that adds only thickness and majority of people think they feel better in hands.

In benefits you would get 2-3x larger battery, and who says that 2-6 day battery lifetime wouldn't be a great thing?
You would as well get a larger space for sensor and optics, and who says that wouldn't be a nice thing?
You would as well get more space for memory cards, sim cards, physical switches and buttons, fingerprint sensor to sides, projectors, better speakers etc.

Meaning you would get far more models for your requirements. Only by getting a 50% heavier phone. And think about how you could as well make the phones frame sturdier so they don't flex so easily and break down as you would get thicker glass as well in there.

7 months agopermalink

Shlomo Goldwasser

If only the number 9 would be a reference to its number of cameras, and that they made what the Light L16 should have been.

7 months agopermalink

JordanAT

Yeah, but for the Light 16 to work, the underlying computational methods would have had to work for all subjects and conditions. All they (light) seem to have proven is that it mostly works for some image types, but that it really isn't ready for anything other than a tech demo.

7 months agopermalink

DiffractionLtd

If 1/4 of the money poured into the camera development was directed toward real cameras, it would be good.

7 months agopermalink

RedFox88

No point of variable aperture when everything is in focus already "wide open"

7 months agopermalink

Menneisyys

With an 1/2.3" sensor and the rumored (maximal) 1.4 aperture, the DoF can be a bit too shallow for a lot of kinds of shots resulting in a lot of important thing to be out of focus. This even happens on the iPhone with its considerably smaller sensor and smaller aperture. Then, the ability to make the aperture smaller, you can avoid this.

7 months agopermalink

Yes, it is already in focus for you who just looks the image in full screen from phone screen with a terrible eye sight...

7 months agopermalink

Rensol

Red should be scared to death!

7 months agopermalink

nathantw

Especially their $79,500 8k Monstro.

7 months ago*permalink

anticipation_of

PR person says that their company’s upcoming product will be great, news at 11.

7 months agopermalink

Photato

I hope is not Variable Aperture because that usually makes bad bokeh when used in small sensors.
A mechanical shutter or multi-aspect sensor would make more of a difference.
Another option would be a dual camera setup one for Video/Low Light and the other for High resolution shots.

7 months ago*permalink

justmeMN

Samsung "Reimagined" their NX cameras. They made them disappear.

7 months agopermalink

Mk7

That was a smart, forward-thinking decision. They went where the long-term money is - phones, not ILCs.
And why not push the camera phone envelope with something groundbreaking, instead of lazy, meager incremental updates (looking at you, Apple).

7 months agopermalink

JustmeMN,
That was exactly the kind of comment I was about to write just before reading yours.. ;-)

Mk7,
Do you think that Olympus, Panasonic, Sony should take that "smart, forward-thinking" decision too ?
I am more or less convinced that one of the reasons of the failure of the NX line is the lack of ads and promotion. On the French TV, newpapers or magazines, we can see ads for Samsung products like TV or phones. I even saw ads for Samsung compact cameras. But when the NX line was alive, I never saw a single ads for an NX camera... As they were new in this market, I never understood this strategy.

7 months ago*permalink

@Karroly... the failure of the NX line had nothing to do with ads or promotion. It had to do with Samsung believing what Samsung NX fans also seem to believe that one camera with impressive specs means you've arrived and can quit working and everyone will just turn over their hard earned money. Samsung didn't show any signs that they were going to build a system and so most people passed on the NX1 and Samsung couldn't believe that people weren't standing in line to buy their list of specs. What they needed to understand is that people buying those types of cameras want a system and they want that system to be supported for the long haul.

7 months agopermalink

Clayton1985,
" Samsung didn't show any signs that they were going to build a system"
If building a system is mainly building a lens line-up, then Samsung certainly did more at that time than Sony for their APS-C MILC....
I invite you to look at the NX lens line-up here :
http://www.samsung.com/global/nx/lenses/index.html
Just two of them are for the NX mini...
Missing in this list, is the 300mm F2.8 lens, that was never released to production.
So, I do not agree with your point of view that Samsung did not try to build a system...

7 months agopermalink

No I did not say building a system is mainly building a lens line-up. The lens lineup is of course part of building a system and when you look at the Samsung lineup you see how confused Samsung was about how they wanted to position their system. But the real problem is that Samsung released the NX1 and nothing else and they expected it to dominate the market. The NX1 was the only real compelling camera and one camera isn't enough to get people to move systems and as it turned out those of us that weren't swayed by the impressive spec list alone were right.

7 months agopermalink

"But the real problem is that Samsung released the NX1 and nothing else."
That is not quite true. The 16-50mm F2-2.8 and 50-150mm F2.8 Pro lenses were announced and released roughly at the same time for the NX1, and should have been followed by the 300mm F2.8. The NX500 body was even released the next year. But I suspect that, at the NX1 launch, the NX line was already dying, bodies like the NX30 were difficult to buy in Europe.

7 months ago*permalink

I'm talking about the camera not the lenses and you may be right that the NX line was already dying but I still maintain that Samsung thought the NX1 would be a smashing success and when that didn't happen quickly they bailed. If they understood the market they were trying to sell the NX1 to they wouldn't have wasted the time unless they were in it for the long haul.

7 months agopermalink

In the industry, this is sometimes like in war time. Some managers know the war is soon over, but, unwisely, they put their last strengths together to build the "ultimate weapon" and fight the final battle, with a last and desperate hope of victory...

7 months ago*permalink

Vanitas Photo

S8 launched on April 2017 and they are now announcing the S9? Geez this is madness... How often do people change to new smartphone models????

7 months agopermalink

CallumG

If the marketing is strong enough, every damn year!

7 months agopermalink

IamJF

Are there really people who change their phones every year?
I would be even to lazy to do all the setup and installing so often ...

7 months agopermalink

Edgar_in_Indy

Still enjoying my circa 2013 S4! (That's the beauty of a phone where you can easily change the battery and expand the storage space.)

7 months ago*permalink

sludge21017

Try dropping that S4 in a toilet. Good luck with that. Oh - the new phones have expandable storage again... so your point?

7 months agopermalink

M G L

How many phones have you dropper in toilets?

7 months agopermalink

Edgar_in_Indy

Sludge...did I ever say that new phones don't have expandable storage? It was more of a general comment on the advantages of phones that offer expandable storage and replaceable batters (ie *not* iPhones).

And somehow I have managed to never drop my phone in the toilet. I hope that doesn't make me too unique.

7 months agopermalink

Vanitas Photo

FWIW I still have an S5 not planning to change it any time soon.

7 months agopermalink

CQui

Some user pay extra to have a new phone once a year, manufacturer have to have a new model so users don't switch to another brand,

7 months agopermalink

CaPi

Add film.. that would be a nes

7 months agopermalink

G Sciorio

Geesh. Just put a 1" sensor in the thing and shut up.

7 months agopermalink

panther fan

We had this already:
https://www.panasonic.com/de/consumer/produktarchiv/foto-video/lumix-kompaktkameras/dmc-cm1.html

21.2mm thickness tells you why it failed

7 months agopermalink

G Sciorio

I owned a CM1 and it was great! Problem is it came out in the US a year into a two year cycle and Panasonic didn’t support it. We got camera bumps already, I bet with Samsungs know how they could get it thinner. Quite frankly, I’d be happy to have a slightly thicker phone with a massive battery and a fat sensor.

7 months agopermalink

vv50

"21.2mm thickness tells you why it failed" - for you. why it failed for you.

7 months agopermalink

morinor

(yawn)...
Just take some snapshot pictures with your phone to catch the moment, when you do not have something (or be satisfied with just that). If you want something better, do not spent on a phone hype. All this try to simulate physics, misinform about the lens capabilities and the high cost for almost nothing is insulting for my intelligence. But most people bite the hook and the story goes on.
The good side of story: technology paid now on a phone can be implemented better on cameras afterwards. Sony sensors improvement and BSI are some examples.

7 months agopermalink

GarySFBCN

Is dual camera better than one camera? If so, how?

7 months agopermalink

Ixhu

By multiple focal lengths

7 months agopermalink

Lars Rehm

there are different concepts. You can either have two focal length or you can combine the image data from two sensors computationally (you basically have double the sensor surface and light capture capability as a single-sensor, pretty much the same as having a larger sensor...) or you have a combination of both....it's definitely the way forward (for smartphone cameras at least)

7 months agopermalink