Correct name of mis-identified Iwo Jima flag raiser revealed after 70 years

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/06/japan-okinawa-island-protest-160619050825296.html

Thanks Mike, It wasn't staged but some just don't get it. The same people don't get (or want to get?) the name mix up. It was RARE for those in combat to be identified in photos. Most families back home didn't even know their loved ones were taking part in that battle. The Marines were still fighting at the time and nobody was aware a photo had been taken that would someday be iconic.
Your post was dead on. Thank you.

Jun 30, 2016*permalink

Mike Sanservino

US Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal was present at Iwo Jima and witnessed from a distance the first flag-raising atop Suribachi. Forrestal was inspired by the sight of Marines erecting the flag, that he requested the flag be returned to him as a memento of the historic event.

Colonel Smith, flat-out refused Forrestal's request, considering the first flag raised over Iwo Jima to be the property of his Marine battalion. Colonel Smith ordered the first flag lowered and returned to his staff, and a second flag raised atop Suribachi so that the substitute flag could be sent to Secretary Forrestal. It was the second, larger flag that was photographed by Joe Rosenthal.

Thus, Forrestal never got his souvenir -- the Iwo Jima flag was too famous for even a cabinet secretary to keep. Of course, Colonel Smith was thwarted as well. Both the first and second flags raised over Iwo were turned over to the National Museum of the Marine Corps.

Marines are Marines... NOT soldiers.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

liketoride2

My dictionary's (AED) definition of Marine is "A soldier who serves both shipboard and on land." If Marines are not soldiers what is the correct classification or term?

Jun 30, 2016permalink

Lawn Lends

The US Marines are an excellent outfit if you want to control some area on earth, but if you want to learn English, you are probably better off using a different organization.

Jul 5, 2016permalink

54Grunt0311

Who is Col Smith??? The 2nd Battalion 28th Marines commander was a Col Chandler Johnson.

Aug 19, 2016permalink

Mike Sanservino

I am appalled at the ignorant comments and ignorance displayed here by so many. Iwo Jima was considered crucial to taking Japan for several reasons. A great number of B-29's were being damaged during the bombing campaign against the Japanese islands and as such, they were less likely to make it back to their bases in Tinian. Iwo airfields saved thousands of aircrews from damaged bombers that landed there. Iwo also served as a staging area for P-51 Mustangs for long range bomber escort. Prior to Iwo, the B-29's went in with no fighter escorts, again, because of the long distances involved. Additionally, by staging B-29s from Iwo, they could carry more bombs because they didn't need to carry as much fuel.

There were two flag raisings on Mt Suribachi. The first was of a smaller flag, to signify that this highest point on Iwo had been taken. A second, much larger flag was raised so that it could be better seen by other Marines on the island, for a moral boost in a very bloody battle.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

PanchoVilla

Great photo! The sacrifices made by these brave American troops paved the way to nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which saved countless American lives. It would of been great if they had nuked Korea and Vietnam so they could learn the meaning of freedom!

Jun 29, 2016*permalink

PanchoVilla

The Japanese dare complain about US Military bases there. America earned the right to do whatever we please! God bless the Marines and military!

Jun 29, 2016permalink

PKDanny

I remember I saw this photo. It was from video. Not by camera. Maybe 16mm film video.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

There is video of the flag raising but the iconic photo is a still shot.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

WilliamJ

And the video is in color while the iconic shot is in B&W. For a comparaison, look at 2mn20s : https://youtu.be/1-xGKIn_cnM

Jun 30, 2016permalink

As the photo is a remake of the real event, it's all fake anyway

Jun 28, 2016*permalink

There was nothing fake about the second flag raising. It was a genuine moment captured on film and has served to inspire millions. The photo is certainly a worthy representation of the fighting spirit, and dedication to duty and values of the United Startes Marine Corps.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

When will it be a fake then, the third flag , one day after or only a couple hours later?
It wasn't the original flag on that hill

Jun 28, 2016*permalink

So what if it wasn't the first flag on Mt. Suribachi. It's never been presented as the first flag. The photo has always been presented as being of a flag raising on Suribachi. Where's the fakery? Where's the deception?

Jun 28, 2016permalink

Don't you see the reenactment of the flag rising as a problem?
Where is the photo of thoose guys who rose the first flag?
Probably different persons altogether and probably under more difficult circumstances.
I think it's dishonest picture.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

It's not a reenactment. It's a separate and distinct event, the raising of another flag. Photos of the first flag raising can be found, here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_the_Flag_on_Iwo_Jima

If the public response to a photo of the first raising had been as widespread and powerful as the public response to the Joe Rosenthal photo, perhaps another photo would have won the Pulitzer, become the model for the Marine Corps War Memorial and come to symbolize the spirit of the Marines.

That didn't happen. Rosenthal's photo is iconic and timeless. It has gone on to achieve world acclaim, and is recognized as converting the essence of the US Marine soldier and the Corps.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

matt1941

Exactly. I would call it PROPAGANDA. Which when you recreate an event for a purpose.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

Bill is correct. This wasn't a recreation. The men were not directed to do it for photo purposes. Joe Rosenthal got lucky. The flag would have gone up the same way if he wasn't there. It was a different flag.

Semper Fi

Jun 29, 2016permalink

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/22/world/cnnphotos-iwo-jima/

Some fun reading for shooters.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

Jan Itor, the second flag raising occurred during brutal combat conditions so that fighting men could more readily take courage from the sight of Old Glory. There was nothing fake about this intent to raise a more visible flag. There was nothing dishonest about photographing the challenge of getting the job done amid the disarray of combat. Please sir, reconsider what you have posted. Just because, at some point, you were lead to believe the purpose of the second event was a nefarious attempt to replace the first, does not mean the photos of the second were taken in order to mislead. If you read Flag of Our Fathers, the narrative of the two Mt. Suribachi flag raisings, you will understand how the pressures of the battle lead to incorrect perceptions. Reading this article should be sufficient to persuade you how easy it was for a case of mistaken identity to persist for many decades. There is no dishonesty here -- just human error -- surrounded by much bravery and sacrifice.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

MikeFairbanks

Just because it was a second flag raising doesn't make it fake, and doesn't mean the Marines in the photo were in any less danger.

Think of it like this: An athlete does something amazing, and everyone yells, "do it again." The athlete does it and a photo is made. Nothing wrong with that.

Jun 30, 2016permalink

JimW-203

@Jan Itor: So you think the marines raising the second flag - the one Joe Rosenthal happened to photograph - were is any less danger on Iwo Jima?
Do you really believe they were Hollywood actors flown in to have their photo taken raising the flag? Do you have any idea of how many Marines gave their lives to allow that photo to be taken? 6800 Marines died with 26,000 casualties during five weeks of intense and bloody battle. Or, do think that was a fake too?

Jul 1, 2016permalink

Wolfeye

Sad, that nobody knows the distinction between "officer" and enlisted man.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

Johannes Zander

Please enlighten me! Thank you.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

DotCom Editor

One snap of the shutter to get it right with 4x5-inch sheet film. And then to transport a satchel of film magazines to a field lab for processing.

No 13 frames-per-second silliness. No autofocus. No image stabilization. No automatic metering. No blinkies. No instant image review. No auto ISO. No TTL image composition. No histogram. Just history.

Could today's photographers get the shot?

Jun 28, 2016permalink

Johannes Zander

Yes the whole platoon would stand there with their smartphones!

Jun 28, 2016permalink

matt1941

@Johannes Zander
...including those raising the pole making selfies..

Jun 29, 2016permalink

noflashplease

It's worth remembering that all of the American press was heavily censored during Second World War. If an enterprising investigative reporter had discovered the incorrect name attribution at the time, it wouldn't have made it to press.

The real lesson here is that we shouldn't idealize the past. We are the living in the "Greatest Generation."

Jun 28, 2016*permalink

I have to politely disagree. I am old and the current generation doesn't represent the "Greatest Generation" to me.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

JimW-203

How many of your nouveau "Greatest Generation" would be willing to undertake the hardships and dangers of WWII?

Jul 1, 2016permalink

MikeFairbanks

There is no greatest generation.

But there is, in fact, a certain amount of respect that should be given to people who suffered through the Great Depression and still had the fortitude to sacrifice in every way (home and abroad) for their country.

They were the last generation to really pull together for an extended period of time for a single cause. The only thing that generation failed to do was produce a decent follow up generation (the Baby Boomers). I'd say the Baby Boomers have been far more destructive to this country than any generation so far.

Jul 3, 2016permalink

noflashplease

In all fairness, the "Greatest Generation" was intellectually disengaged and largely unquestioning of authority, hence the disconnect between the "Baby Boomers" and their parents.

Sadly, most Americans truly don't understand the history of the Second World War, or how the Roosevelt administration's blatant press censorship impacted subsequent events. Consider for a moment how we're still discussing the official deception surrounding a single photography, seven decades later?

Jul 3, 2016*permalink

Except there was no "official deception".

Jul 5, 2016permalink

I know the Gagnon family well.
Glad they never stop trying to get it right. There were multiple flag raisings and coming after such a horrific battle it is understandable things got messed up. Nobody knew at the time they were taking an iconic photo. It was one more of a million WW2 shots.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

AbrasiveReducer

Didn't they recently identify the couple kissing in Times Square on VJ Day? We really are in the information age, if you live long enough.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

Yes, you are a correct and a wonderful book came out maybe three years ago about it.

Jun 30, 2016permalink

MarcelloDl

I see your 70 years and raise you a Riccardo Giusto, first victim of WWI in Italy, awarded a place in history books and street names, for 97 years believed to be named "Riccardo Di Giusto".

Jun 28, 2016*permalink

Sir Corey of Deane

Please try to remember that out of 26,000 American casualties, 6,800 died to enable the flag to be raised.

R.I.P. brave lads.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

noflashplease

I think it's more important to remember that Iwo Jima was strategically unimportant as the airfields were neutralized, and could have been bypassed altogether, saving each and every one of those 6,821 American lives, not to mention 82 day of pointless fighting.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

Sir Corey of Deane

As I understand it, Iwo Jima was considered necessary for a base close to Japan for the American bombers. The use of the atomic bomb, a secret at the time, made Iwo Jima redundant. Pity hindsight couldn't sometimes be too.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

Noflashplease, the US Army Air Corps needed Iwo Jima to pursue their strategy of bombing the Japanese home islands. The island provided an emergency landing field for damaged B-29's and for returning bombers low on fuel. It also was used as a nearly perfect location to stage fighter escorts for the bombers. The strategy of island hopping was a good one (hitting the Japanese on islands where their forces were weak and could be more easily defeated). But as Iwo Jima and Okinawa so tragically proved, sooner or later the Marines and Army would need to take an island where the enemy was heavily entrenched. The battle casualties incurred their were heartbreaking and shocking, but not pointless.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

George Zip

I have seen that photo a lot of times. I honestly always thought it was a staged shot because it looked so "perfect". I am not from the USA.

Just did some reading, apparently it is not staged, but the photographer was accused of staging it.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

starwolfy

Hello. I've always read it was staged. The soldiers had to redo the flag raise so the photograph could take the shot.
Of course I was not there at the time...

Jun 28, 2016permalink

The linked articles make it sound like it was a mix of both... Commanders sent the soldiers out to plant a second larger flag a while after the first one had been raised, and the photographer was actually present for both...

Jun 28, 2016permalink

https://vimeo.com/170182098

If you start watching at the 7:00 mark, there's a clip of Joe Rosenthal describing the flag-raising and how the scene unfolded to result in his iconic photo. Yes, he was on the scene to document the flag going up. Yes, the photo captures a genuine moment.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

It was the second flag raised on that hill that day
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/22/world/cnnphotos-iwo-jima/

Jun 28, 2016permalink

matt1941

@Bill Ferris.
You raise a flag.
Then you reaise 10 more flags and you capture those 10 "genuine moments".
Sure, genuine as copycats are on their own.

Jun 29, 2016*permalink

The fog of war is to blame here. When Rosenthal was asked if he had staged the picture, he said yes. The questioner meant did he stage the second flag raising. Rosenthal thought he was asking about the picture of the first.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

moimoi

What a photo to be proud of!

Thanks for sharing this story/update.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

TN Args

Maybe someone didn't want to see the name 'Schultz' on that photo, way back in '45. Very unlikely, I suppose, but a lot worse was happening to people with the 'wrong name' at that time. A lot worse.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

Kind of a pessimistic view, though if you really wanted to cast a negative view in something that probably doesn't deserve it you could blame the AP photographer who never documented the photo (maybe it wasn't customary?). Seems the Marines had better things to do at the time and nobody had bothered looking too deeply into it since then, they're usually not glory hounds... Just keeping a glass half full outlook here.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

I'm basing that on the tone of the article linked btw, who knows, you could be right; or the truth could be more complicated, not in me to cast aspersions tho.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

chapita

I thought the same.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

Too speculative.

Jun 29, 2016permalink

ewelch

Very interesting story. Glad the truth is out.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

JapanAntoine

Took 70 years to ask the three other guys on the picture who was with them?

Jun 28, 2016permalink

DrXian

That's the army for you.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

You're assuming A) they're alive and B) that it's that clear cut and easy to remember. I doubt the soldiers were keeping track of trivial things like a flag raising amongst all the chaos... Much less a second staged raising for a photo op. From the links above:

" The Marine Corps now believes Navy Pharmacist's Mate 2nd Class John Bradley was not in the Rosenthal image, but was involved in the initial flag raising hours before the famous photo was taken. "

Jun 28, 2016permalink

The first article linked is particularly illuminating, the guy was actually there for both flag raisings but not actually in the most popular photo, go figure... He didn't particularly seek the fame... The linked article starts with:

" By the time John "Doc" Bradley reached the summit of Mount Suribachi, he hadn't slept or eaten for three days. "

And that's barely the tip of the confusion iceberg.

Jun 28, 2016permalink

rube39

Marines! And I was named after the 2nd guy in the photo, Mike Strank.

Jun 28, 2016permalink