ProGrade announces $330 160GB CFexpress Type A card with max read speeds of 800MB/s

And you illustrate perfectly why CFE-A is not taking off in the market and hence why costs are not being driven down.

You have made the logical choice that most do. Most do not need CFE-A.

Those who do will have that option but will have to continue to pay a high price for it. CFE-A will remain a niche product, but there's nothing wrong with that.

It's not a one size fits all solution.

Sep 24, 2021*permalink

Jen Bruntnant

It really shows how unnecessary expensive the Canon RF cameras where you are forced to buy CF Express cards if you want redundancy (use two card slots). As the R5/R6 are locked to only one card type per card slot and one of them i CF Express there is no choice but to buy CF Express card.

Sep 25, 2021permalink

4sofnature

Video shooter doesn't need CF-A unless internal RAW which is can't be found on any Sony camera under $50k; even V60 would work for 8K on A1. Most stills shooters should be fine with V90 unless for professional sports or wildlife.

Sep 26, 2021permalink

Spectro

I mostly do still photography like most people. Ok, I do a few short video clips for fun. I still use a 32 b card, and to be honest, can live with a 16GB except for event photography. So I don't need more than 128GB, nor do I need that write speed since I am not doing video. The thing is z6 only uses xqd or cfx. They don't make 32 gb anymore for xqd or cfx, the cheapest is a 64gb for $100. To me, the z6 and d750 file size and speed are almost the same so a cheaper 32 sd card works great for still photographers. i think I sued to spend $30 for sd card on sale, not $330.

so this card is basically for video not really needed for still photography

Sep 22, 2021*permalink

Jen Bruntnant

Well, its useful for advanced video and advanced sports photography. If you push 30 fps à 50Mpxl RAW then CF Express Type is useful :-)

Sep 22, 2021permalink

ecka84

Yeah, those 24mp cameras are too low-res for the CFX/XQD to make any sense. But they are more reliable than SD cards. And you can use memory cards as a temporary backup storage too. Before you process the images and make backup copies. No need to format the card right after you copy the files to your computer (unlike most people do). Sometimes the files can get damaged during transfer (for various reasons) and you might need to re-copy them later. The only thing wrong with CFX is its insane price.

Sep 22, 2021permalink

Spectro

50mp spray and pray photography awesomeness.

Sep 23, 2021permalink

ecka84

Why!? Why these insanely expensive CFX cards come in such ridiculously low capacities? Because only those are affordable? It only takes 10-20sec to fill (or copy) such card at its max speed. The capacities are clearly lagging behind. We can get the normal UDMA7 CF 256GB for less than $200, which itself is crazy expensive. Why can't we have some reasonably priced 512GB or 1TB CFX? We can buy a freaking laptop for less than a proper capacity CFX card costs, with a faster and/or higher capacity SSD in it. This is madness. The 1tb Samsung 980 Pro M.2 costs as much as that old 256GB CF card, only $180, while normal SSDs are like $100 per 1tb or less. WTH!? Why do they need to make the CFX twenty times more expensive? Not "just" 4 or 5 times? Because we need six of these $330 cards to have 960GB (for $1980 in total). It's literally 20 times more expensive.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Allot of complaints about cfa prices here, but you need to remember that they aren’t needed for 90% of A1/A7sIII users out there. You can shoot most video modes, even 8k on an SD v60 Card and (unlike Canon) you can even use two SD cards and still have redundancy for important or professional use. I think when you consider that these are simply an upgrade option for power users, you start to realize that they are not meant for everyday Joe’s, and then the price makes more sense.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

I think that's a fair summation: that right now CFE-A is for a very narrow niche.

Although I would add that many very skilled photographers above the level of "everyday Joe's" are using the SD card rather than CFE-A in the A1 and A7SIII.

But the question will be if it remains with this narrow band of usage, will it be feasible from a business sense to keep producing them?

And if it's not for the "everyday Joe's" then if Sony puts this option in their expected A7 IV, then why? Many more "everyday Joe's" will use that model over the A1 or A7SIII.

I would add that I see the Sony solution to media cards as very elegant and consumer friendly: allow both slots to use either CFE-a or SD.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Hey look at that, our first agreement;)
I did mention that SD are fine for professional use scenarios, and fully agree with you. It’s just a small subset of users that really do need the cfa on the A1, and unfortunately, I am one of them 😕

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Ying Yon

@ TRU - "And if it's not for the "everyday Joe's" then if Sony puts this option in their expected A7 IV, then why?"

We will have to wait and see if there is performance gain in A7iv by using CF Express. It depends on the feature set. Also for users having multple cameras it is benefitial to have card compatibility so you can switch between cameras. Having dual card slots handling dual card types is really useful in that context.

Sep 22, 2021permalink

@Ying Yon: fair enough points.

Sep 22, 2021permalink

Insanely overpriced, consider this, it uses the same signaling standard of NVMe. For the price of that 160GB CFexpress card, you can get a 2TB M.2 NVMe SSD with a read speed of 7GB/s and a write speed of 5.3GB/s

They need to give those cameras M.2 slots rather than CFexpress, or make a connector passive adapter that are more robust for the wear of repeated insertions.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

forest dream

Agree. If someone release battery grip with built-in M.2 SSD slot will sell..

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

David Gay

M.2 and CFExpress are both form factors. They both use NVMe and PCIe. The only difference is that CFExpress is only PCIe 3.0, and 1/2/4 lanes for A/B/C, while there's (up to) 4 lanes of PCIe 3.0 and 4.0 (which is 2x faster than 3.0) for M.2.

However, as the maximum speed of 1 lane of PCIe 3.0 is 1GB/s, it doesn't look like that's the limiting factor. Heat instead, likely?

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

How is power consumtion for such SSD disks at idle and workload?

Sep 21, 2021permalink

theBitterFig

That kinda makes me wonder: why don't more cameras have internal SSDs? Seems like it could be handy and fast for when you need speed, and offload from the SSD to a computer or SD card later when speed isn't important.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Some drawbacks to internal SSDs:

If SSD fails, then what? Have to send camera back for repair?

If I use media card, I can also use that in multiple cameras if I want. If I upgrade I can take that media card with me.

Also, I can do a shoot and then give that card to someone else...for post processing, maybe to a client, etc. But I still have my camera and can just use another card.

With internal SSD I am limited of course...so that the storage I pay for is less flexible in usage.

IMHO, I will take removable storage cards over internal storage any day.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

@ Thoughts R Us: Good points.

Sep 22, 2021permalink

@Magnar W
For idle power consumption modern high end SSDs are pretty low at around 20 to 30mW. The high draws come when writing at full speed, with depending on the model, they can pull 5 to 8 watts, with the controller alone pulling 1 to 3 watts.
Lower to mid range stuff will use significantly less power, with many of the drives in the 2.5 to 3GB/s range, pulling around 3 watts while writing at full speed and 20mW or less when idle, and under 2mW when in a sleep mode.

Some SSDs such as ones from WD, have a mode for lower read latency that they label as a gaming mode which disable the idle power state, thus causing the SSD to pull 1 watt at idle if that mode is enabled. Though it would not benefit a camera use case, since the SSD can have writes cached to the SSDs RAM while it is transitioning to a higher power state.

Sep 22, 2021*permalink

theBitterFig

@Thoughts R US - Fair enough. I guess I should have been more specific that I was mostly thinking about a "Why not both?"

I wouldn't want to see more cameras go the route of the Zeiss ZX1, but having both a card slot or two plus some amount of internal storage that works faster than SD card read/write speeds seems like it could be handy.

Sep 22, 2021permalink

In looking up some of the prograde cf express cards, the power consumption range is similar to that of an NVMe SSD. https://progradedigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/ProGrade_DS_CFexpress_Final_E.pdf

They even confirm to the same standards as desktop NVMe SSDs for both communication and power states.

They are effectively PCI Express SSDs but with a different connecter and an astronomically higher price while offering lower IOPs than many budget m.2 NVMe offerings.

Sep 22, 2021permalink

Jen Bruntnant

There will likely be more card vendors doing CF Express A onwards. Not only the A7s3 and A1 has the dual card slots, but there is a rumour that A7iv will have CF express A / SD dual card slots as well. So when the largest mirrorless brand use CF Express A not only in the top level cameras but also in the volume sales camera then there is good business for the card manufacturers.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

nilsjohan

Sure. Interestingly enough the CF Express Type A Cards seems to overheat less than Type B cards. So maybe Canon will switch to Type A as well in the future, to redce their overheating problems.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Jeff Luo

Yes and each Sony camera has two type A card slots, which means the demand is doubled. Very good business for card manufactures.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

Need to give the A type cards some more time. Then expect increased capacity, more speed, and price drop.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

@Sup Yall has the right point. The key isn't how many Sony cameras have that CFE-A/SD slot, but how many users actually use the CFE-A cards.

Most A1 owners I read keep using the SD cards and see no reason to switch to CFE-A.

If A1 owners don't see a need to go to CFE-A then I can't see many owners of the rumored A7 IV using them.

The key to getting costs down is to make more CFE-A cards. But the key to making more cards is to have people buying more. And that's not happening.

You can have all the cameras you want out there with the slots that use CFE-A and SD, but if the vast majority are opting for SD then the ability to use CFE-A means nothing.

Ironically, Sony came up with a very user friendly solution with those dual CFE-A/SD slots, but it's also dramatically slowing the adoption of CFE-A.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

nilsjohan

There has been undersupply of the Type A cards so far. As soon as they have been in stock they have been sold out again. Probably Type A cards sell because they work well with high performance and reliability in mirrorless cameras. As mentioned they dont seem to have the same overheating problems as Type B cards has in Mirrorless when you push the performance with high fps or high resolution high frame rate video. Thats performance and reliability combined with the compactness bolds well for the continued use of Type A.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

I’m an A1 user and I do use cfa for one reason; I shoot stills and video clips on the same jobs and often have to quickly grab a video clip after snapping stills. The Sony cameras won’t let you start recording a video until the buffer is cleared, and with SD that can take 8 or 9 seconds to clear instead of 1 or 2 seconds with the cfa.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

Sony's adopting CF type A is probably a precursor of what is to come, their use on the A7S3 and A1 seems more like testing the waters, at least you're not pigeonholed into using them. Besides if you're going for capacity, CF express anything is terrible value, stuff like RAW video or lightly compressed formats are better served with an external recorder and an SSD.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Ying Yon

Good news with more CF express card options. The Sony system is really smart with double duty card slots for SD cards and CF express cards in such compact format.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Dan Donovan

I have been waiting for these reasonably priced cards. I shoot action with a Sony a1 and fast SD cards. Even with great SD cards, I hit the buffer once or twice during a game during an extended sequence. This is usually a celebration sequence that goes on longer than a normal play. Thank you ProGrade!

Sep 21, 2021permalink

I wouldn't exactly call these "reasonably priced." They are cheaper than the Sony branded one, but still expensive. They are more expensive than the faster CFExpress Type B cards and of course, certainly more expensive than SD cards.

The problem with CFExp-A is a catch22. It's expensive so people don't buy them. But more people need to buy them in order to drive the cost down.

Even most of the A1 users I know or read use the SD cards. Rumor has it that the next A7 IV will also use the dual CFE-A/SD card slots. But if most A1 users are not going for CFE-A, I can't see many A7 series users going for it.

Then there's the fact that this type of card tops out at 160GB. What if someone wants/needs more on a single card?

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Vignes

More 3rd party options may drive other camera manufacturers to opt for CFE-A with SD combo. I like Sony's approuch with providing dual card options.
Canon may struggle to use CFE-A card due to their large data throughput requirements compared to peers.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Dan Donovan

@Thoughts R Us Definitely agree the price is not cheap, but better than the Sony price, especially when buying 2. The increased speed is worth it for me. I really want to shoot action without worrying about hitting the buffer, then having to shoot more selectively when I do hit it. A key benefit of 30fps is getting THE key image from a moment.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

"because when your camera costs 6500 the 590 you spend on the cards shouldnt matter. If it does then you made a mistake at the 6500 part, not the 590 part."

That's a bit harsh. Everyone has their standards for judging pricing and relative value. There's someone active on these discussions who has an A1 and uses SD cards. There's someone on another forum...a very skilled BIF shooter with an A1 that uses SD cards, not because he can't afford CFE-b but because he just doesn't want to spend that much money on a media card based on the principle.

It's not really a good argument to say the high price of a camera body somehow justifies larger than usual pricing on the media cards. I mean, by that reasoning, if you're spending $6500 on a camera body, then why not spend $1000 on a media card?

Sep 21, 2021permalink

davev8

OnePointTwo....thier is a lot of things in life i can afford but don't buy because the price they are are not good value to me or my use ..i pay 2.25K for my R6.. in the UK canons batteries are 115 but i refuse to pay that .. does that mean i should not of spent the 2.25K on the R6? i could buy lots and lots of canon batteries without it being a problem and the wife probably won't notice but i chose 2 third parties with a twin charger for 43

Sep 21, 2021permalink

I think the most relevant point is that there are higher capacity, cheaper cards available right now, that can be used in those cameras able to use CFE-A, and that those cards are SD!

Sure the state of the CFE-A is what it is right now, but the reality is that the for users of those few Sony cameras, the choice is between CFE-A and SD, and so far SD is winning by a landslide.

The cost differential between SD and CFE-A is too big to ignore, and one can get higher capacity SD cards easily. Many excellent photographers who know what they are doing are using the SD cards and are not seeing their work compromised in doing so.

In fact given the prevalent use of SD over CFE-A in some very high powered cameras by some very skilled users, one has to wonder if CFE-A even offers that much of a real world advantage, or if it's just marketing hype.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Dan Donovan

@Thoughts R Us - Right now I use SD cards with my Sony a1 and they work fine most of the time. The CFE-A cards are needed during extended peak action. The SD cards just cannot keep up with raw files at 30fps for more than a few seconds. Most action I shoot is short bursts for a second, plus or minus. SD cards are fine for those bursts. But, every once in a while, I need to go longer. Those longer bursts is where CFE-A cards will help me. So, they will be a valuable tool for my work.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

Thank you @OnePointTwo for your input. I respect it and I promise I won't bite you :)

For you CFE-A cards are the better solution as you articulated. Again, I respect that and am not trying to change your mind.

But my point is that many respected photographers using the A1 are using SD and will not go to CFE-A due to the cost. And it's not a matter of being able to afford it, but just the principle and/or just not needing it.

The key is how many of each type of photographer is out there. So far it seems that most are just using SD. Nothing wrong with you choosing otherwise, but if there are not enough making that same decision as you, then the format will remain relatively high priced.

I don't think there's a controversy here. It's just a matter what the market chooses or "votes" for with their money.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

trungtran

Happy using my $10 32GB SD cards.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

In your A1?

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Hey I write 21MP JPGs to one card and 50MP raws to another and the JPG card is an old 128GB V30 card. (The other is a 256GB v90 card.)

The v30 card writing the lower res JPGs (for quick delivery and fast culling) doesn’t materially slow the camera down. (The limiter appears to be writing raws to the V90 card)

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

@ trungtran: You have to save money somewhere after buying a Sony A1. What about spending $10 for one spare battery too?

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

trungtran

Even if I had an A1, I would not be spending +1k on storage. Not my style to spray and prey.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

ArtistAndCamera

Thinking of when a 4MB drive was several hundred dollars.
Technology moves fast!

Sep 20, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

As with other new data storing media:
Capacity: up
Speed: up
Price: down
Compactness: will stay as is

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Kiril Karaatanasov

Why are not cameras using m.2 SSDs? I bought one the other day that is more than 8 times faster than this is 12 times bigger and costs the same...

Using these half baked technologies just makes no sense at all.

Add an m.2 slot in camera and call it a day.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

ArtistAndCamera

M.2's requires a certain power supply+processor combination that is not small enough to properly fit in a camera. Otherwise, they'd be pretty cool. The way BMPCC cameras record to external SSD's over USB-C is a good start tho to incorporating consumer drives as storage options.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

forest dream

BMPCC 4K/6K support M.2 SSD via USB slot on camera.

If M.2 SSD can't built-in in camera, why not make M.2 SSD slot built-in in camera's hand grip?

Below show M.2 SSD slot built-in in USB hub.
6:30 https://youtu.be/Zoaum42hGyA

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

ArtistAndCamera

now, compare the size of the BMPCC to a Sony ILC. Somewhat different.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

M2 SSDs aren't ruggerized in its standard form for one and they aren't the most compact of solutions but I wish they used them instead of SATA ssds for Ninja Vs.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Vignes

heat
CFE-B itself generates more heat.
CFE-A may be more efficient and generates less heat.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Kiril Karaatanasov

Yes fast m.2 SSD heat up under heavy load. I doubt any modern cameras can exert enough load. Even raw video is much less than 7000MB/s.

Indeed adapters to m.2 SSD from USB are tiny. So I do not buy the argument that the cameras cannot use them

I agree that A7C is too small to house m.2. The other A7 cameras I am not sure. They have 2 slots with two sets of connectors and a special door. The m.2 can be harder to replace and need much less complications.

An m.2 drive needs no frequent replacement. It would be more or less permanent fixture. 2TB or 4TB is plenty of space. You can offload to any external storage when done. Perhaps external SSD could be used by the rare occasions where 4TB would not suffice between two sessions. Also 8TB drives are behind the corner.

I am not sure why Sony made SSDs are important. Nextorage is Sony subsidiary.

It is not about CF Express A. Someone should think hard. Especially huge camera like this new R3

Built-in memory is option too

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

Avet

You can. CFExpress is just a glorified and overpriced NVME SSD. You just need to use an adequate low-power NVME SSD with an adapter.

Watch this video: https://youtu.be/qPyjaHANuIo

If you need more speed than V90 you record 8K+ and probably have a decent camera rig. Hanging this adapter is easy. I don't see a reason why would anyone need CFExpress cards apart from a few use cases that require recording without a rig. And you get 1TB for around $200. Also, you can use KIOXIA BG4 Series NVME drives in any USB-C enclosures and they will work with any camera that supports USB recording like BMPCC.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

CFexpress uses the NVMe standard, they just change the form factor and price going on bottom of the barrel controllers and NAND.
If they wanted, they could make a passive m.2 carrier that acts as a heat spreader and pin adapter to something more rugged.

While m.2 SSDs do get warm, a simple heat spreader works to keep them cool since the thermal issues are more about the tiny controller pulling 1 to 2 watts.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

jnd

Using SSD over USB is bad idea because you have additional protocol overhead and may not be so realiable as attaching your memory directly over PCIe lane as is the case for CFE cards. m.2 is just another form factor that is designed for internal use and not to be replaced often, it has rather delicate connector and needs to be secured with screw. All but the shortest m.2 devices are too long and generate heat which isn't problem in ventilated PC case or with external heatsink. They are not optimized for embedded use and the shortest form factor has only couple models to choose. Otherwise the actual memory chip will the same, no matter if it's in USB-C, m.2, or CFExpress form factor, that's not the issue here.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

KjellRS

The funny thing is, the "express" in SD Express and CFexpress is the same - they both talk PCI Express, more specifically SD 7.0 and CF-A both speak PCIe 3.0 x1 in marginally different physical form factors. There's no reason to think there'll be a real price or performance difference.

Now the SD association has already annunced PCIe 4-based SD 8.0 cards and CFexpress haven't, but I think that's because SD7 has been a dud, so was SD6 (UHS-III) and SD 5.0 died on the drawing board - cameras have either stuck with V60/V90 cards from SD 4.0 standard or moved on to CFexpress. Because SD is only interesting because it's cheap and the newer standards aren't.

As for CF-A vs CF-B... it's one lane in a 1568mm^3 form factor vs two lanes in a 4360mm^3 form factor. Nothing more proprietary about it than SD/miniSD/microSD, except Sony is the only one that's bet on the CF-A form factor. Or rather offered it as an option in dual SD/CF-A card slots, nothing wrong with sticking to your old SD cards.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

The answer is that we need to build a SSD into these cameras instead of paying outrageous amounts for flash memory.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

JasonTheBirder

I would not want internal storage in a camera. For one, many people can get by with very small cards like 32GB or 64GB, which costs way less than an SSD, especially if you get a used one. Secondly, what if the SSD dies? Send it in to the service center? No, thanks. Third, if you have multiple cameras, you can use one card for all of them, which makes it even cheaper than an SSD. Fourth, it would make it harder to sell the camera, and you'd have to do a complete overwrite to prevent someone else recovering your shots.

There is no way I would buy a camera to have built in storage. It would just give manufacturers an excuse to milk more money out of us. The last thing we should want is for cameras to be sealed up like iPhones.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

For long term use which cameras are likely to be, its not a good idea to have inbuilt memory, storage fail and have read/write limits so redundancy in terms of replacement would be a better idea

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

Not a good idea at all. You will end up filling the internal SSD, and then what do you do? You're stuck, if you want to take more photos, you'll have to quickly transfer the images to a computer, which you might not have brought with you.
With the cards, if one is full, no problem, you can just put another one.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Karroly

It is funny, because you make the assumption that built-in SSD means no card slot...
I am pretty sure that a camera with some internal storage would feature at least one memory card slot...

Sep 21, 2021permalink

SSDs can be removed and swapped; look at things like Atmos Ninjas.

We could be carrying 10-20x larger drives than this CF-A card with 5-10x the speed for the same price. Or conversely dirt cheap drives that are "only" 500GB.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

jnd

CFE cards are SSDs in memory card format, with PCIe lanes, just like in computer. Build in memory for phones is fast because it's natively integrated into the chipset data lanes and SD cards were historically pretty slow, with old interface. So it does make sense to have some native flash/SSD memory because it will be optimized for the camera's use and guaranteed to be fast enough for every working mode, even for RAW video capture. And also cheaper to implement than standalone cards. With these modern CFE cards t kinda loses practical point because they are just as fast and can be swapped in professional jobs which require a lot of storage and zero downtime. For consumer targetted part of market it would tottaly make sense, but manufacturers like to sandbag the lower models so they are writing memory slowly on purpose.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Nicolas Det

In order to replace the camera when the ssd dies?
Please no:)

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Tazz93

Wasn't the Cobalt 300GB card around on sale around $330 for a while?

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

Well they instantly lose 2 credibility points for calling themselves ProGrade.

It's presumptuous and not their call to make. The pros dictate what they consider Pro grade.

So I checked their site and they seem sincere, with the name an attempt to convey their intent, so I'll give them a point back.

Trouble is it's the kind of contrived name given to a lot cheap clone stuff that catches the eye of WAGs and makes a quick stopover in my Christmas stocking on its way to the recycle bin.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

Kinematic Digit

I guess when they took over ownership of Lexar, they were hoping to eventually lose the Lexar name. The Prograde brand will likely be what they will move forward in the future, but for now they are positioning it as the premium to the other product they offer which they consider their lower tier product now.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

kelpdiver

so how do you feel about Sandisk and their EXTREME to the max lines?

Sep 20, 2021permalink

PredatorsPrey

Well the ProGrade team already showed back in the lexar days how good they are and got good experience with their Cobalt series cards. They are fast and besides the Sony tough the only cards I use I can't get to thermal throttling (I could if I want but I don't notice buffer clearing slow downs even after heavy continuous shooting use). Besides, they're also offering as Sony nand storage health check to give you a premature warning if the card might be considered less reliable (ie better do dual slot recording after that*) and another warning when its close to end of life, meaning when you can expect card failure to happen at any time. Thats pretty pro actually, don't know other brands doing that apart from these two.
I'm usually with you, such a name makes me sceptical but they're fine.

*That doesn't prevent from cold soldering joints (ae when a single corn of dust got in it) or premature controller failings but helps keeping track if the memory gets degraded like with ssds.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

PredatorsPrey

Besides the price is pretty high, Type B cards got a bit cheaper in the past and hopefully this trend will continue getting close to the current nvme ssd range.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

ewelch

If you knew the history of this company you would know why they legitimately call it ProGrade. They left Lexar and formed their company with the intent of making higher quality memory cards that would appeal to professionals.

Up to this point they pretty much make the best in the business. Their CFExpress Type B cards are the best out there.

I just am glad my Canon R5 uses the Type B cards, which are way faster.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

@kelpdiver -Sandisk Extreme is fine, that's the way it's typically done.

But that'ts not what ProGrade is doing here is it.

Let's go through it:

Sandisk
Sandisk Ultra
Sandisk Extreme
Sandisk Extreme Pro

So it seems Sandisk (Western Digital) have found a way to sell different grades of products, consumer, enthusiasts, pro, etc.

It works great.

Now lets think what ProGrade might call similar products.

ProGrade
ProGrade
ProGrade
ProGrade

Not confusing at all. How about this

ProGrade consumer grade
ProGrade enthusiast grade
ProGrade nearly pro grade
ProGrade pro grade.

Rolls off the tongue.

By calling themselves ProGrade, the implication is that everything they ever make will be pro grade, because they say so.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

@PredatorsPrey, @ewelch
Thanks for the context. Lexar, yes, solid heritage. Makes more sense now.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

kelpdiver

I've seen every sort of brand marketing in technology over the past 30 years.

The marketing department rarely thinks past the current and next model, so they come up with naming schemas that won't last. Just try comparing the intel cpus by model name these days.

ProGrade appears to be the model where they first offered a premium product and then wanted to expand their potential market downward. Other companies go the other direction.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

@OnePointTwo

I could respond in kind and question your role as arbiter of the comments, but such comment might be deemed churlish and not within the friendly amicable spirit of the comments section.

I must confess, despite 45 years in the technology industry, and despite some familiarity with Cirrus Logic and Lexar, I'd not yet heard of ProGrade.

Perhaps it's because I've not been in the market for CF Express cards in the past.

Or perhaps I've casually noticed them but because my immediate association with the brand name was to think it sounded like one of the cheap no-name products that like to give themselves a grandiose name, I instinctively filtered it out.

And that's what my comment was. To say it actually looks ok, despite the initial association.

And as a result, two commenters were kind enough to clue me in about their actual pedigree. Comments for which I thanked them.

I'm less motivated to do so with yours however.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

RubberDials

@Gannon

"the format has struggled to take hold"

Seriously Gannon? Type A and C cards were announced in February 2019. How many high end cameras do you think have been designed in the last two years?

Sep 20, 2021permalink

RubberDials

@Sup Yall

Welcome to the forum.

Type B cards were announced in 2016.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

@ Sup Yall: Then just put a SD express in the slot ...

Sep 20, 2021permalink

ewelch

SD cards are old school and going away. That's the bottom line. CFExpress is the future. All three formats. The move started a few years back, and just like SD killed off CF, CFExpress is about to return the favor to SD.

The biggest problem for SDExpress taking is they top out at 985 MB/s. CFExpress Type B is vastly faster. Type A can do 800. But I wonder what the real world difference will be?

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

Kona Mike

@RubberDials, How come Type B cards were announced in 2016, but Type A and C cards were announced in February 2019? That seems odd.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

panther fan

XQG (which is essentially Type B) was announced in 2010, finished in 2011 and Nikon adopted it in 2012

It was then transferred in 2016 to CFexpress

Then in 2019, the standard was moved to CFexpress 2.0 which included two new card formats (Type A and Type C). Type A will catch up with Type B, Type B is just almost a decade old at this point

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Kona Mike

Looks like Type A will never catch on since Type B is faster, cheaper, more widely adopted, and been around longer.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

panther fan

@Kona Mike
Well then it would also look bad for Type B, since SD-Express is backwards compatible with SD and that has been around for even longer

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Kona Mike

@panther fan, yes I agree. SD cards are everywhere and I'd think they will beat out CFExpress Type A, B And C. That leaves little future for Type A.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Why did Sony go with Type A?

I feel like the company is determined to be as far behind in storage as possible, from their crippled UHS-I implementation on their APSC/RX cameras to their mismatching UHS-I/II cards on their Gen 3 bodies to their exclusive use of CF Type A.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

Samuel Lucifer

Essentially, Sony wants to carve out a part of the market for themselves since they develop their own memory cards.

Sony likes to have their own proprietary storage memory.

It all started with memory stick, memory stick duo, and then memory stick pro. And now they have CF Type A.

They can do so without much resistance as they own nearly half the current camera market and so Sony can dictate the type of memory cards that go into your camera.

Luckily you can still use regular SD as well.
The question is more, for how long.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

pixelpreaching

Because they can make money being (so far) the only manufacturer of them on the market. And they still support UHS-II SD. But I guarantee the former was the biggest driving factor - now they can use them in all of their future bodies, and inevitably some people will buy them even if the camera can't even benefit from the difference between CFE-A and SD V90 cards.

Business-wise, it's a smart move - people can't complain much because each slot still supports the fastest SD cards, but Sony benefits from selling the (MUCH) more expensive Cfexpress cards that only they currently make. And I think 8K does require them.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

Lucifer it’s ironic you wrote “Sony likes to have their own proprietary formats” on an article about another company’s memory card release.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

8K on the A1 can be written to Dirt cheap V60 SD cards.
You don’t even need V90 cards.
You can even write low data rate 8K to v30 cards.. (at 200MBPS)

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

Samuel Lucifer

MikeRan - It is actually no secret that this card is just an OEM product stamped ProGrade. Its specifications namely are the exact same as Sony's own. Which make it very likely they come from the same production line.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

(unknown member)

@ Samuel Lucifer: A quick Google search tells that CFexpress is a standard proposed by the CompactFlash Association.

I am sure more people will post the same "proprietary card" nonsense.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

They have been doing this since the days of Betamax, Sony does it because they don't just sell cameras, arguably cornering the storage medium has the potential to net way more profits.

Proprietary storage isn't anything new nor unique, RED, Arri all do it but for consumer markets, I believe the more universal format would win if it matches the proprietary medium in performance.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

Samuel Lucifer

Magnar - Tell me which companies make part of the Compact Flash Association. You will find Sony amongst them and so far only Sony uses type A.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

The Mad Kiwi

Because Sony probably realised that the majority of users would just use their cameras with Dual SD cards almost all of the time. And if they need the speed they can use Dual CF Express cards.

It’s a better solution than forcing users into using mismatched cards.

CF is dead anyway SD express will eventually win because computers come with SD card slots and computer manufacturers are unlikely to put anything else in.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

Xinto

CF Express type A is absolutely a superior format for digital cameras. It has the necessary speed, Flash memory is dense enough that it doesn't require a larger format, the cards are physically smaller so you can have dual slots in a small body, and the slots can be made compatible with SD cards.

The real question is why did other manufacturers choose the larger, less flexible format? Perhaps they had too much nostalgia for the old large and bulky CF cards, which is a format that I don't recall Sony ever supporting.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

Tazz93

@MikeRan, The R5 writes 8K to a V60 card too, its just the RAW and ALL-I that require the CF Express card. Never tried it, but the 8K IPB "Light" option might write to a fast V30 considering the bit rate is close to 1080 All-I (230Mbp/s).

Sep 20, 2021permalink

This doesn't appear to be a money thing - CF Express is an open standard, and every camera not sold wipes out margins for how many cards? There's also zero budget reason to not replace the UHS-1/memory stick duo slots across their lineup with standard UHS-I or UHS-II slots.

It's a really weird corporate blind spot.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

Tazz, yup. I mentioned the A1 because some people seem to think because the A1 shoots 8K and because the A1 takes CF-A cards that CF-A cards are required for 8K. And it’s just not true.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

ewelch

To be fair, to save space I suspect. And having slots that allow people to keep using SD cards for a while.

That was the reasoning for Canon to put SD in with CFExpress on the R5. They thought people would want to use their SD cards for a while yet, especially the more expensive ones that pros tend to buy.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

Alam12

SD card this CF card that
Just remember, the reason dual card slot is a thing for backup is because SD card got high fail rate

It's fragile format, and sadly 2 card slot is became a norm, why use 2 if 1 never fail?

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

Tell that to all the nikon guys frustrated that Nikon only put 1 XQD slot in their initial Z series cameras.

Anyway Id like to see your reliability data on SD compared to other formats, especially if you consider the tough-type fully molded parts available from a few manufacturers they are virtually indestructible mechanically.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

Well with the CF type A you could have 1 SD and 1 CF in one slot so potentially you could save real estate on the camera while still having redundancy but it still has terrible dollar for capacity and not much capacity to begin with.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

@Alam12 "why use 2 if 1 never fail?"
Even if there existed a card that never failed AND a slot that never failed (you need both), then there would still be a reason to have 2 cards and 2 slots.
You know why? It's called User Error. People do make mistakes. Accidentally formatted a card, or deleted a photo, or dropped and lost the card somewhere. And then you lose ALL your data, even though the card never failed. That's why you need a backup for those moments that you cannot lose.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

@Djehuty it's not "1 SD and 1 CF" in one slot, it's "1 SD or 1 CF".
So no, you cannot save real estate that way.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Francis85

MikeRan - those XQD slots in the initial Z have been made 100% compatible with CFexpress. Another fact is that XQD was something of Sony. So why didn’t Sony use it in their consumer cameras. Yet they did use it - Single Slot - in Sony’s professional line-up of video cameras.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

@ Just Another Tog: This is about a new CFexpress type A card, NOT made by Sony ...

In the early days of computers and digital cameras, proprietary was the norm everywhere. For type A cards too, prices will drop, speed will raise, and compactness will stay.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

panther fan

The reason is simple Sony does understand dual card slots.

If you shoot to both cards for redundancy it does make ZERO sense to have one fast and one slow slot. You will just end up with the slow speed with the added headache of incompatible media and expensive cards.

Either put in two fast slots or two slow slots. Both Nikon and Canon claim they cannot put in two fast slots of Type B for size reasons [and Canon doesn't put in two fast slots in the R3 for stubborn reasons]
Sony managed to go for two fast slots which is VASTLY better than one fast slot. THat they also managed to keep two cheap slots for non demanding tasks is just the icing on the cake.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

(unknown member)

@ panther fan: You can copy data from one card to the other after shooting a sequence. Not perfect, but better than just one port.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

Calphate

I've predicted this outcome since the day Type-A was invented

It's very simple: nobody likes Type-B. It's too big. The size of cameras will keep shrinking when technology advances (for example in few years they will get rid of the mechanical shutter completely) and dual Type-B is just a pain in the ass. But Panasonic/Nikon/Fuji had no choice because Sony basically shoveled XQD down their throats. They need Type-B as a workaround. It's Sony that chose Type-B for them.

Sep 21, 2021permalink

Greg Ohio

Vs. $150/TB for SSD.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

Given the standard of current CFexpress being NVMe over PCIe 3.0, a 1TB WD Black SN750 goes for $119 with a read speed of 3.47GB/s and write speeds of 3GB/s (drops to 1.4 to 1.5GB/s after the 36GB SLC cache fills but since the cache can be written to while it is being emptied, writes below 3.47GB/s will take longer for the cache to fill, and birsty activities will likely never run into a cache issues.

If they could go with M.2 SSDs in passive carriers to give a more robust connector, then users can have more future ready cards, for example, if a camera maker decides to take a slot from 2 PCIe lanes, to 4 lanes, current SSDs will be ready to take advantage of that added bandwidth.

Sep 21, 2021*permalink

Well its not that much cheaper vs Sony's offerings and V90 SD cards takes care of most things and as far as functionality is concerned, there's no lacking with the SD cards. The Long Gop 120p on the A7siii is pretty much good enough that you don't need the All-I option that is allowed with the type A.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

Tony Northrup

Cool but if you're shooting raw on a Sony a1 you really need 512GB - 1TB Type A and they literally don't exist.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

24Peter

Very true Tony!

Sep 20, 2021permalink

A 256GB v90 card holds about 4400 compressed RAW files from an A1 and the camera still shoots at 30FPS and the buffer clears at a rate of 5 frames per second.

This performance is good enough for ~95% of A1 shooters and therein lies the problem.

512GB would be nice but hardly required.

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

Dan_168

@Sup Yall
If you are shooting with camera like A1, cost of a memory card probably shouldn't be even a concern?

Sep 20, 2021*permalink

Tony you meet with Sony staff all the time. Does Sony just have a blind spot for storage?

They have storage oddities across their lineup: the APSC and RX cameras are still crippled UHS-I/Memory Stick Duo slots, the third generation FF MILCs were one fast one slow slot, and now they've standardized on a slower, pricier card type.

Sep 20, 2021permalink

SilvanBromide

@Tony Northrup "if you're shooting raw on a Sony a1 you really need 512GB - 1TB Type A"

That's an absurd claim. You would only "need" more than 160GB per slot if you were going to shoot more than 2,500 images in *uncompressed* raw without being able to pause long enough to hot swap a CF-E card.

Seriously, who exactly would "need" to do that??! Or perhaps you are offering us a new and unfamiliar usage of the term "need"! ; )

Sep 20, 2021permalink

kelpdiver

consider it more a convenience issue than a cost one. The Delkin 2TB B card was (is?) $1000. Much better deal.

Sep 20, 2021permalink