Sony introduces Cyber-shot DSC-HX80 30x travel zoom

http://www.dpreview.com/products/fujifilm/compacts/fujifilm_xs1

The lens already is 2.1x faster than same-sized RX100 series.
(by absolute aperture diameter, there is physics involved, you know ...)

Mar 8, 2016*permalink

Cameracist

Yes, but it would be bigger and that's a priority of this camera.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

SunsetMagnet

u had me at 1/2.3....aka cell phone quality.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

SergioMO

"The HX80 comes equipped with an 18.2MP 1/2.3″ Exmor R CMOS sensor and BOINZ X image processor in order to produce high-resolution photos". No thanks !

Mar 8, 2016permalink

Valiant Thor

It's a yawner.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

utomo99

The sensor is too small.
I hope Sony can create good sensor which can capture more light, including on low light.
The latest Sony Sensor is good, but for small sensor still not enough

Mar 8, 2016permalink

1MPXL

Since there is a HX90 already there is no need for this little gem with such a very little difference when compared. They could have at least reserved the work force and focused more on delivering us a new A-mount beasts. (with a 36MP and 42MP sensors). There are far more better glass in the A-mount system.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

Stephen McDonald

Ho-hum. One more little camera with a pinhead "1/2.3-inch" sensor and no 4K video. Will they release a large superzoom model with a bigger sensor and UHD, to get one-up on Panasonic and Nikon? What happened to "2/3-inch" sensors? I had a camcorder with them 28 years ago. One of those in a fullsized superzoom with 30X and 800mm would be a winner.

Mar 8, 2016*permalink

Mike FL

Old Fuji XS1 is "2/3-inch" sensors with 26X zoom in a weather sealed "fullsized superzoom".

Mar 8, 2016permalink

The Squire

@Stephen, agreed, I'd love to see ultra compacts and travel zooms using 2/3" or 1/1.7" sensors.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

That's F/36 (equivalent) at the long end. The Raleigh-limit for max. possible resolution (i.e., at vanishing contrast with a perfect lens) at F/36 is 6 MP.

Sony advertizing a 6 MP camera as 18 MP should be reported to market watch agencies.

Otherwise, this is a tiny camera which certainly can provide a lot of fun and usable images up to HD quality.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

ProfHankD

I don't know how you're doing that math. The Fraunhofer diffraction central spot size is 2.44*wavelength*aperture (the actual aperture). When you plug-in the numbers, at f/6.4 the size sensor used ought to be sampling more like 2MP (roughly 1080 video) for green light.

Is that false advertising? Nope. Sampling beyond Nyquist is good, and Sony does use all 18MP for sampling. False advertising would be claiming the lens delivers 18MP resolution, which I'm sure they don't claim... and some less-careful competitors sometimes have made claims like that. ;-)

As for me, I'm just shocked that they can do all this in a pocketable camera with a pop-up OLED EVF for under $400 MSRP! That's truly shocking.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

Look up Rayleigh limit, you are off by a factor 2^2, diffraction isn't as bad as many people think. I.e., at the wide end, the #pixels of this camera do almost make sense.
I nowhere said this is a bad camera. But really, they should have used a 12MP sensor like many smartphones do or did too.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

ProfHankD

Rayleigh limit is an angular resolution limit based on just-distinguishable PSF overlap, and it is 1.22 * wavelength * aperture, again as actual f/number -- which is precisely different from Fraunhofer by a linear factor of 2, which means 2x2 for area. That still doesn't come to 6MP by any numbers I plug in and, in fact, I already had a 2x2 factor in the 2MP number to allow for a Nyquist sampling of the Fraunhofer value (which is basically why the linear factor of 2 difference was there). BTW, in the worst case, it can be argued that another factor of 2x2 is needed due to the Bayer matrix, which would bring us to about 8MP at the long end of the zoom and to about 18MP at the short end.

Sampling above Nyquist is a good thing, and there is very little reason to believe that a 12MP sensor would have any better IQ than an 18MP one correctly scaled to the same resolution (e.g., using SINC resampling) -- at least not using a sensor with a high fill factor, which Sony BSI sensors have.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

4everAnoob

They should have actually used their newest smartphone sensor, instead of this old exmor sensor, then it might improve the quality

Mar 8, 2016permalink

The camera has a 4.55mm high sensor. The Rayleigh limit at F/6.4 is 4.3µm for a line pair. Which makes 1060 lp/PH or 6 MP (the camera has 1.25µm pixels).

I know from my day-to-day shooting that stopping down up to the Rayleigh limit (for my camera's pixel pitch) does make sense, but not beyond (if I need the resolution). The Rayleigh limit for this camera is reached at F/3.7.

Mar 8, 2016*permalink

I may add to my comment that I often fall into the trap of incorrectly computing the diffraction limit myself. It is a factor 4^2 off from what one may think considering the Airy disk diameter. That's why I normally do such back-of-the-envelope calculations in 35mm-equivalent terms where I have a good feeling which results are about right ;)

E.g., the D810 resolves 4.9µm pixels or 9.8µm lp corresponding to its Rayleigh limit reached at F/14. Between about F/5.6 and F/13, there are measurable, then visible losses of micro contrast. Beyond, there is a loss of detail no sharpening can recover. I try to avoid stopping down a D810 beyond F/11.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

PhotoRaw

- No fast lens, F3.5 at the wide end :(
- No raw :(
- No 1 inch sensor :(
- No 4K :(

No good.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Oleg Vinokurov

They already have 1 inch cameras, both compact and long zoom. Asking to release only one type of camera?

Mar 7, 2016permalink

heartburn

1/2.3 type (7.82mm) Exmor R CMOS sensor

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Though Sony's website fails to note any distinction from the 90v, Digital Trends is reporting that the 80 lacks the control ring around the lens (which can be customized to use for a choice of functions, including manual focus) and GPS. So for $130 less, there you go. I like GPS quite a bit and find that control ring useful as a third customizable adjustment.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Leonp

I don't care what sensor is in this camera, but i would really want to know why (repeat: why?) dpreview doesn't state the sensor size in this article, again. Do they really think their readers don't notice some of the most important information of this camera is just missing? It's obvious why manufacturers want to sell us tiny sensor camera's now (and larger sensor camera's next year), but come on guys.

Mar 7, 2016*permalink

Michiel953

It's smaller (a lot) than 1". I worked that out from the focal lengths of that zoom.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

AstroStan

From the spec sheet above:
Sensor size 1/2.3" (6.17 x 4.55 mm)

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Oleg Vinokurov

Readers here quite easily see it's a small sensor camera and if someone wanted to see exact sensor data, spec list below article.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Leonp

Yesterday the speclist wasn't below the article. Now it's there, with the sensor size mentioned.

Mar 8, 2016permalink

Favorable Exponynt

Still no need to replace my hx9v I see :p (not that I would ever do that). Once was enough.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

dwl017

Still carry mine all the time no need to upgrade :-) great little cam

Mar 8, 2016permalink

vscd

f20.5-f37.5 equivalent. Sounds promising :) As I don't need 720mm on holydays I guess my phone would be sufficient enough (and better?).

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Beckler8

If this is like my older HX50 with 30x, it's not even useful to have that much zoom. Not only do you rarely need it and it's hard to hand hold, the image quality drops. I wish they'd stop it with the marketing nonsense and make what I think more people would actually want: 10 to 15x zoom and a larger sensor - in between this one and 1" in size.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Hah, I can use up a 20x zoom inside the house and fully utilized all of the 50x on my Canon SX50. I am waiting to get my hands on a Nikon P900 to find out if the viewfinder and picture quality make that model worth owning for the 83x zoom.

On my SX50 I captured a Boeing 767 approach and landing from right over my head still airborne until taxing off the runway nearly a mile away. Try getting that with 15x. But I can see why for people who mostly shoot snapshots of friends, pets or the garden, sure, 15x would be plenty.

Either way, I would never call zoom (like I would call the ISO race) a marketing point just to trick amateurs into being impressed. Optical zoom brings a whole new world into the lens. Yes, it does take getting used to holding the camera still, maybe by perching an elbow on your abdomen. Worth it though.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Beckler8

Well the lens is slow and even on a sunny day you need high ISO which is then really bad. Also the image quality drops so much at high zoom that I think a higher quality lens at half the zoom then cropped to same size would probably actually be better quality. I'm just referring to HX50. In fact there's a comparison somewhere doing just that and RX100 image quality is so ridiculously better it really does call into question ultrahigh zoom/small sensor.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Salpjs

There are plenty of 1" and near 1" sensor pocket cameras from Canon, Nikon and Panasonic with a 24 or 28-80-120. Also Nikon's CX and Panasonic's M43 have decent medium zooms especially the new Panasonic. Several 1" have 24 or 28- 200-250 and even a new 600zoom from Canon. Plenty of us love the travel zoom range and the price point and size of the 2/3rd

Mar 8, 2016permalink

Okay, just looked at a UK site and found out where the dark product photos above probably came from. There, one can find three additional pics showing rear, top and side.

The original question is how if at all the 80 is different from the 90v. Looking through the features, I am unable to find a single change except for a tiny change in body size.

Therefore, my guess is that Sony is going to offer a much more advanced 90-series, though wanted to continue selling one similar to the existing and first in the series 90v at a now lower price, which will leave the upper price-point available.

While a quite decent and groundbreaking camera, $429 retail was quite a bit for the 90v due to the 1/2.3 sensor. It is probable they will continue finding buyers right there for $300, then asking more money to present who knows what else on a 91v, maybe a Mic jack or fully articulating LCD.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Wondering why DP offers 3 pictures of the front though nothing from the top or rear. Maybe Sony has yet to release alternate views. Aside from that, I am left fetching to discover the purpose of this release given the 90v with a seemingly identical feature set.

Mar 7, 2016*permalink

scottzee

This is literally the exact same camera as the HX-90V. Same size, sensor, zoom... WTF?

Official HX80 specs: https://www.sony.co.uk/electronics/cyber-shot-compact-cameras/dsc-hx80/specifications

Official HX90V specs: http://www.sony.com/electronics/cyber-shot-compact-cameras/dsc-hx90v/specifications

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Mike FL

HX-80 has NO GPS, but HX-90V has GPS as seem from SPECs that you listed.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

bernardly

Sony is to be commended for making the pop up EVF a standard feature on this class of camera at this price point.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Mister Roboto

So so but infinitely better than carrying iPhone with worthless accessories/adapters etc.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Except you'll be carrying the iPhone anyway.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

V Ahrlenz

Too late!

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Ben O Connor

They did not mention the size of sensor... it is probably smaller than my cellphone, in A.D. 2016.

Ridiculous!

Mar 7, 2016permalink

maksa

Even Hasselblad probably has a sensor smaller than your cellphone…

Mar 7, 2016permalink

NAwlins Contrarian

Something's got to give if you want to put reach equivalent to 720mm in your pocket, and sensor size is the most obvious answer. You may not want 720mm, but your phone's fixed lens is probably 35mm equivalent--which for some uses can be pretty limiting.

Also, this camera appears to have a "1/2.3-inch" sensor, which has about 70% more area than the "1/3.1-inch" and "1/3-inch" sensors in most phones.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Kirppu

720mm equivalent divided by 123mm focal length seems to give crop factor of 5.854. So long edge length of the sensor would be around 5.978mm
If I'm not totally wrong...

Mar 7, 2016*permalink

Ben O Connor

If same Sony cam will come with a hasselblad wood grip... Then yeah you'll be right. ;)

Mar 7, 2016permalink

NAwlins Contrarian

What are the main difference between the new HX80 and the older HX90? The new camera may be slightly smaller, and appears to slot lower with the lower price tag ($350 versus the HX90's $450) and lower model number. Possibly no raw support in the HX80? I am scratching my head, seems to be another instance of too little model differentiation for Sony.

To those complaining about the sensor size, you can still buy the original RX100 new for $399, and get its much larger sensor. It's still a great camera. But for a vacation / pocketable / non-enthusiast-spouse camera, sometimes 100mm equivalent isn't enough, and give you the option to go to 720mm equivalent--while remaining quite pocketable--is a nice alternative.

Mar 7, 2016*permalink

Apparently lacks GPS and lens control ring.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Revenant

"Apparently lacks GPS and lens control ring."

I often wonder about this kind of product differentiation. What was the reasoning behind this?

"Let's scoop up all those potential buyers who thought to themselves: if only the HX90V lacked the GPS and control ring, and cost a little less, then I'd buy it in a heartbeat!"

Mar 8, 2016*permalink

JEROME NOLAS

Look at that nice "sexy" grip. Sony could make big $$$ just by selling them instead of crapy lenses etc.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Axel Vercauteren

18.2 MP, 1/2.3": Useless

Mar 7, 2016permalink

And yet the Nokia Lumia 1020 with 1/1.5" 38MP sensor is one of the best camera phones available?

Mar 7, 2016permalink

Valentin G

So what are the differences with HX90V? BTW, Sony ans Panasonic compete to have the most confusing model numbering. So HX80 is the newer model following to HX90. This will sure help clear up the old model's remaining stock :-)

Mar 7, 2016*permalink

Revenant

"Along with the DSC-HX90V model, the HX80 camera becomes the only compact high-zoom camera with a retractable electronic viewfinder"

The above quote from the press release suggests that Sony doesn't see this as the replacement for the HX90V, but rather as a sister model in the line-up.

But since Sony already made a superzoom bridge camera named HX100, maybe they are now going backwards. But they will soon run out of numbers, though.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

AksCT

I have HX50V, which is an outstanding camera in terms of build quality and feature set.
But image quality was unacceptable.
My HX50V is sitting on the shelf, collecting dust (figuratively and literally)

Mar 7, 2016permalink

JordanAT

On the contrary - it produces the most wonderful watercolor-like prints.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

AksCT

Well said.

Mar 7, 2016permalink

The Squire

Nice enough, but after the (much more expensive) Panny ZS100 has been announced, this is a bit 'meh'.

Slow lens, no 4k, undisclosed sensor size (I read that a 1/2.3")

Some people will buy it for the 30x zoom though.

But as a cheaper budget travel zoom, it's ok. 50Mbps video is nice to have.

Mar 7, 2016permalink