Huawei with the P30 Pro and OPPO with the Reno are still the only manufacturers to offer folded-tele-optics in their respective smartphone camera systems. According to South Korean technology publication The Elec they might soon be joined by Samsung, though.
Like other recent high-resolution smartphone sensors, the 108MP juggernaut will likely not be designed to output full resolution images but instead deliver image data that can be subjected to all sorts of computational imaging trickery, resulting in better detail, lower noise, a wider dynamic range and better zoom performance among others.
Samsung Electro-Mechanics has released a video which shows the new lens design and how it works in detail. The module is only 5mm tall which means it fits even in thin smartphone bodies without protruding too much. Light is diverted onto the sensor via a prism. The latter is tilting to provide image stabilization which makes a lot of sense for the lens long maximum focal length.
Samsung launched the Note 10 flagship series with a more conventional camera not too long ago but we should be able to see the new design in the S11 models which are expected to launch sometime next spring.
zoom lenses in cellphone prism periscope designs will have a serious financial impact on Nikon, Canon, Sony, Pentax, FujiFilm, etc mirrorless cameras sales! Certainly a Full frame chip can take better photos, but the impact of amazing results and instant transfer will hurt mirrorless cameras sales.
I hope you understand how small those zoom lenses are. The module is 5 mm tall, which means that the largest lenses are not more than 3-4 mm in diameter. So, it is comparable to a 25-125 mm F8-F40 lens. They will need some serious processing to get those images sharp.
On the other end, Huwei never makes any money b/c they sells network products way below the cost while CCP is pouring endless money in .
Look, last year, Huawei's revenue is $100B, but bought $70B+ parts from oversee including $11B key parts from US.
On top of that, you know, sometime CCP is kind of stupid, I saw CCP's mouth peace saying that 60% of the parts are from local by tear down Huawei's products. If so, Huawei is selling its products way below the cost of parts.
But, hey, CCP creating Huawei is not for making money at first place anyway as we all know. If some people do not knew then, they should know now.
So, service providers buy Huawei b/c so cheap, but pay the heavy price in the end such as:
" Japanese mobile carrier SoftBank has decided to replace the Huawei Technologies equipment in its 4G telecommunications network infrastructure with hardware made by Ericsson and Nokia,
The question is, what’s the f number of this optical zoom? The current trend for smartphones is to deal with low light by computationally combining several fast primes. Using a slower zoom, with (presumably) no secondary lenses, would be taking two steps back on that front.
It seems that smartphone technology is being put into developing the in-built camera. Does no one bother, or even care, about how they perform as a phone any more?
I suppose the point I was making was that phones are no longer phones, but have become very expensive cameras or media players. Your very point that phones can't be developed.
You've been asleep since what, the 90s? Modern mobile phones since the very first iPhone and even long before that (remember when SMSes were invented for example?) have been all about various features and apps that have nothing to do with the basic calling which has worked fine forever.
If you just want a basic phone, you've long been about to buy a nice small $20 device that handles phone calls just fine. The market has proven that most people having a device in their pocket with a ton more features.
@spig0t: I don't really understand your post or even if you are addressing to me. We are all awake and know what developments have been in smartphones as multimedia devices. But as their main feature is concerned, the one you actually use to speak to someone. ..What else is there to develop? Nothing unless telepathy becomes fashionable.
@cryptkeeper: I was addressing the parent, and not in any disagreement with what you wrote + are writing now. That should be pretty obvious, both from the fact I was replying to the parent not you, and from what I wrote.
Phones don’t have unlimited variable range zoom, from widest to longest, just a small set of mediocre primes. With a zoom you can go from widest to longest almost instantly to catch a moment. A folding periscope zoom would be the only viable alternative, and could be implemented.
I and the vast majority of most consumers (as proven by the vast vast majority of images being produced these days coming from mobile phones) are quite happy with getting a large range of zoom from a bunch of 'mediocre' primes, combined with tons of software+hardware to turn their output into amazingly impressive images given the size of these devices. The iPhone's night mode and deep fusion and video and various other software features put most compact cameras and even many larger ILC cameras to shame in many respects.
As long as each prime is only stepping-up 2x or less, I really don't think the effective crop at the in-between stages is something to lose much sleep over. If that really matters, you're one of the .1% of people that make a living of photography and really need a professional DSLR (more likely, you're buying such a camera coz you're one of the many many more people that think they do, but really don't).
Also note that having these multiple sensors all gathering data at the same time (plus gathering multiple captures very quickly over a few ms), and then combining all the data with software, is part of the magic of how these phones can create such impressive images.
I hope they don't copy the tech that sends all your pics to the China while you sleep. I've got too many Yi Done cameras sending a live feed from my house to China already.
Highlights: ============= "Samsung's latest bendable screen technology has been *stolen* and sold to *two Chinese companies* , according to prosecutors in South Korea.
The Suwon District Prosecutor's Office charged 11 people on Thursday with stealing tech secrets from Samsung (SSNLF), the office said in a statement."
Pop quiz: ======== Now we know Xiaomi is one of the theft,
So who is the the *second Chinese companies*?
Hints: ===== Again, Huawei is well known for cheat, steal, lie, spy, and more..
Tiny zooms are possible, but not necessarily a good solution.
My understanding is that the Asus zoom did not perform all that well. Zooms don't match primes, and when you scale it down that far, mechanical and tolerance issues become severe. At some point you get to where a high res sensor behind a good prime actually will produce a better zoom image (and be more rugged)
Highlights: ============= "Samsung's latest bendable screen technology has been stolen and sold to *two Chinese companies* , according to prosecutors in South Korea.
The Suwon District Prosecutor's Office charged 11 people on Thursday with stealing tech secrets from Samsung (SSNLF), the office said in a statement."
Pop quiz: ======== Now we know Xiaomi is one of the theft,
So who is the the *second Chinese companies*?
Hints: ===== Huawei is well known for cheat, steal, lie and more..
It depends on the image and the compression of course... And just because you read and process 108mp does not necessarily mean all pixels will be written to file if we are talking JPEG files etc.
So smartphones are finally catching up with optical periscope zooms digicams from years back. And about time too! If this is indeed a genuine periscope zoom and not a FL one like the Huawei and Oppo.
a 5x zoom and a 108MP sensor. Downsize the image to 54MP to improve quality, use artifical intelligence processing, crop down to 20MP and you end up with 8 or 10x images that can be printed at 11x13 or that look good on a lot of screens and monitors. Another benfit of ILCs slowly going away.
My guess, and it may say somehwere, the default images will be 108MP divided by 4 or 27 MP. AI will be used to combine 4 pixels for improved color and DR, and to lowere noise. It might beat many ILCs in the best light if done correctly.
The camera sensors in the $2800 Xiaomi Mi Mix Alpha was made by Samsung in the first place, so you can expecf the same thing to appear in their high end phone.
Samsung does not really care who's the first to the market, because selling smartphone components in quantity is far more profitable, just like how most smartphones in the market uses Sony sensors but Sony themselves continue to put subpar quality cameras in their own smartphones.
I care less about the megapixels, but this is a record matching sensor size for a phone! And I guess Samsung does their post processing better then Xiaomi.
Smartphones needs improving its capability in challenging light situations, just as some do, but increasing megapixel count highly above full frames numbers feel like wrong way to me.
Given that sensor tech is sort of at a plateau, the only way to increase performance is by increasing perceived performance through brute force. That is, take a photo at 100MP and shrink it to 10MP and the noise shrinks with it looking less noisy than a 10MP img from the same size sensor.
Smartphone Manufacturers need to concentrate more on Periscopic zooms on their smartphones, nice to have a 10x instead of the current 5x which is found on the P30 Pro and we need user friendly on screen zoom controls with varying speeds plus better low light and better colour rendition, now I wonder if a smartphone could ever fit in a miniature 3 chip sensor and what about an auto - on - off low pass filter and an inbuilt ND Filter.
@Mike Fl: I also hope that it is in fact a zoom, not a fixed FL tele. But I see no evidence from this or the original article regarding this detail.
Those tele's are not great at all. The sensor size (1/3,4") is even smaller than what we saw years ago in smartphones. Its as small as those 2MP Webcam sensors.
But they do all that so we have no camera bump on the back...
We're almost back to 2007 optical tech in smartphones (Sony DSC-T100, one of my favorite old point and shoots because of the great IS: https://www.dpreview.com/products/sony/compacts/sony_dsct100 ), looks like the Casio EX-V7 even predates the Sony by a month and has a 7x optical zoom.
It is funny to me that people who are hypercritical about tiny differences in ergonomics in "serious" cameras still find a way to take photos while holding a cell phone and using an LCD.
While cell phones are useful for convenience and OK for relatively static photography, the poor ergonomics, touch screen interface, and lack of an EVF will always allow me to justify using a dedicated quality camera when I care about my photos.
For a long period of time, 35mm cameras were referred to as "miniature cameras." A Sony A6XXX camera and 16-50 zoom is about as small and light as the early Leicas. The 1" sensor cameras are even smaller. If you can't even be bothered to carry something like those, why would you call yourself a photography enthusiast?
How much of photography is waiting for the right moment, and how much actually involves holding the camera and actively using it?
Phones are pretty ergonomic (slips right into a pocket/purse) during the waiting period...it’s just those few seconds or minutes where a dedicated camera has better ergonomics. Sure that’s an important or even critical period, but not always.
How much of photography is waiting for the right moment, and how much actually involves holding the camera and actively using it?
Phones are pretty ergonomic (slips right into a pocket/purse) during the waiting period...it’s just those few seconds or minutes where a dedicated camera has better ergonomics. Sure that’s an important or even critical period, but not always.
Good observation that it is only when actually using a well designed camera with an EVF that it has better ergonomics and gives you a better chance at capturing action or a good expression. Why would anyone care about that enough to bother to bring one?
Yes, when not actually taking photos, a cell phone is a much better choice to have with you. As is a sandwich or a drink.
FWIW I was not saying you needed a bag of cameras and lenses... just that a small camera is pretty easy to carry and countless people over the years managed to do that without complaining.
OK your enthusiasm extends to taking photos as long as you can do it easily with a cell phone. Everyone works with limitations. I may carry just a camera or bring an entire truck of gear. It all depends on what I am trying to accomplish.
Cell phones are convenient and often are good enough. But they do not satisfy me.
My take on this is simply that each person enjoys whatever they enjoy. One can enjoy taking a photos but doesn't care about what equipment he uses or care much about results. One can enjoy more the process of taking photos itself. One can enjoy using his gear. Why should one be good and the other bad?
If i enjoy photography with my smartphone, why would anyone should tell me that i shouldn't unless i carry a "proper" camera? :)
The OP was mainly about people complaining about differences in ergonomics between dedicated cameras and do not complain about the big ergonomic disaster a cellphone is. Yes as long as you keep your cellphone in your pocket it is more convenient then a mirrorless camera or a small 1" camera. But when it comes to taking pictures the cellphone is a disaster as described above. The IQ from smartphones is acceptable to very good depending on what you want to do. But when you want to make good pictures you want to change settings, when you want to take good pictures you want to take pictures from strange angles. In all those cases a smartphone isn't the best tool for the job, it can be done, but it is a lot harder to do then with a dedicated camera with flip screen, lots of controls etc. So I agree with the OP. But yes when you have your phone in your pocket, or you want to make a call, look something up on the internet, the phone is more convenient then the dedicated camera
"Phones are pretty ergonomic". LOL. Try to change a lot of settings in seconds (yes, that's what professional photographers need to do while working) with that clumsy screen and no buttons and knobs and get ready for missing a lot of shots. And not to mention, how do you work with a flash??? Oh. The powerful smartphone flash?
Scaling a working zoom lens down to that size would be a big mistake (Asus tried it). The complexity of the micromechanics coupled with the extreme accuracy required would certainly be a nightmare.
On that scale, you are much better of doing what micro electronics does so well and stick with a prime lens.
Uh oh, someone's triggered! I hope you can talk to your therapist about the blasphemy of someone wanting to use a zoom lens on a cell phone.
Anyway, I agree that a true variable focal length zoom would be hard. It annoys me that this prime lens is called a zoom. I'll happily take an 85 or 100 mm-e lens, however. Give me a 24, 35, and 85 mm-e lens and I'd pretty happy for cell phone pictures. Or maybe 28 and 50 and 85.
I'm sick of these morons calling a prime a "5x optical zoom", when it's just a prime. I was with a guy with a 400/2.8 and someone came up and asked him, "wow, how many x-zoom is that". I was entirely entertained when he just said "one" and left it at that.
The P30 Pro is 14.5mm, the Oppo Reno is 15mm, actual focal lengths. I think the S10 plus is 7mm. For comparison, my 24-105 equivalent pocket compact is 18.8mm actual focal length at the long end.
@Androole: No, Lee Jay is not being pedantic. It's not a zoom lens, and shouldn't be described as such. A 5x power binocular is not said to be a 'zoom' binocular. To lose precision and accuracy in language is finally to lose meaning.
And "magnification" is not a term you can apply to photography in this way. It makes sense with optics like binoculars where magnification is the ratio of entrance to exit pupil diameter, but it makes no sense when converting to a real image projected onto a sensor.
In photography, "magnification" means the ratio between the size of the subject on the film/sensor plane to the size in real-life. That depends on subject distance as well as focal length, through the simple lens equation. "5x" is a huge macro, usually called "5:1" which can be had by the Canon MP-e 65mm macro lens.
But there is no point in getting high blood pressure just because of some some wording on an article. In a new wave of tech and some of the traditional meaning has been lost, but it doesn’t really matter. To the average user when they want to ‘zoom’ they can zoom.
You realize the vast majority of entry LV ILC buyers rarely spend money on more than one additional lens to the one offered as a kit. In the end, dedicated cameras may become a niche, uninteresting to the average consumer who will enjoy taking grate pics with their formidable phones and instantly retouch and share them on social media. And all of this thanks to the total lack of imagination of camera manufactures who seam more preoccupied with what feature they should take out from their "cheaper" models (like Canon with the inexplicable lack of 24P in 4K etc) instead of really innovating and make photography/video more interesting and pleasurable with a dedicated camera!
What the market is doing is washing out those who never cared about photography in the first place - those who generally bought an SLR and kit lens and that's it - by giving them smartphones. Those who care about photography will never be satisfied with the focal length and aperture constraints of a phone with a tiny lens.
I'm hoping for a smartphone that could replace my 2011 pocket compact. They aren't even in the same universe as my ILC, nor are they ever likely to be so because the lenses are too small.
What the market has done, and more precisely, the smartphone, has expand photography to the masses. Many hundreds of millions of people, perhaps over a billion, are taking photos now that otherwise would not. Photography has never been bigger.
As for the market "washing out those who never cared about photography in the first place"...that's a rather elitist and condescending comment. I bet those camera companies would love to get those customers who have been "washed out." Last I checked their money was just as valuable.
I know people who are very creative with smartphone cameras but who just never would have thought of using a dedicated camera.
And yes, the market is becoming a very niche market and will continue to do so. I don't think anything a camera company could have done would have stopped the rise of smartphone photography. Smartphones are too convenient and too connected. But camera companies could have made their cameras a better experience.
Hi I have been utterly amazed by what my Samsung s8 can do. Impossibly low light, strong backlight, great HDR, amazing frame rate. Brilliant, until you blow the pix up past 6x4! Then they’re just water colours. But who knows what time will bring. Personally, I’m weighing up quality v size. M43 is the go at the moment for me.
108mp? Well then, you should be able to print huge gallery quality prints and display them at the finest galleries in the land and sell huge amounts of those prints and retire rich!
So now we can't buy neither phones nor cameras. Phones are just bad, overpriced cameras, and real cameras are made in smaller and smaller quantities with greater prices. Is this the planet of idiots?
Interchangeable lens cameras with great image quality are available for as low as 300 EUR nowadays. It was probably never as cheap as today to get into photography.
Toni Salmonelli, "It was probably never as cheap as today to get into photography." Several years ago, when the Canon EOS 300X film SLR was available for sale, I bought one new, with a 28-90mm kit lens, for less than 300 euros...
So 300 euros turns into 450 euros, which turns into $500 USD, which is more than the price of a Nikon D3500 and lens, which is a much, much, much better camera.
Not to mention you don't need to include the cost of film and processing.
Here, in France, the D3500 + AF-P 18-55mm lens kit costs 424 euros on Amazon... Not far from 450 euros... So, what has mainly changed, is the technology, not the price of an entry-level ILC kit "to get into photography", which was the point of Toni Salmonelli. Also, you just forgot that, to enjoy our digital pictures that most of us do no longer print, we must have digital storage and playback devices that have a cost, and that we did not need with films...
The 12mm diagonal of the 108MP (really 27MP) is really interesting. Together with the google night sign algorithms this could be pretty good. I wonder if they can manage 4k 60 video oversampled from the full sensor? Together with a wide angle lens this could digitally zoom like 1.5 without loss of detail.
The Samsung info states they can record 6k video from the full sensor at 30fps, I guess this means 4k oversampled from 6k would be 30fps max too.
> The company started mass production of a 5x optical zoom camera module back in May.
Actually the folded lens is not a 5x optical zoom but a prime lens, the focal length of which is 5 times that of the main module (usually 28mm 24x36 equivalent), i.e. 140mm.
According to Wikipedia we are also using the word wrong
"A true zoom lens, also called a parfocal lens, is one that maintains focus when its focal length changes.[1] A lens that loses focus during zooming is more properly called a varifocal lens. Despite being marketed as zoom lenses, virtually all consumer lenses with variable focal lengths use varifocal design."
I think of the word zoom however more like "Easy single turn/ button press FoV change" Doesn't matter if that is in a lens, digital, or via a multi lens turret. And I think many people see it the same way. As long as you don't have to dismount a lens and remount another a FoV change is a "zoom"
The main module is probably 4.8mm and this is probably around 15mm. They call it "5x" by using a much smaller sensor, and possibly even cropping that. I'll wait to see EXIF before confirming that, but that's what is done on the P30 and Reno.
wow. 100 mpix and zoom. i guess moon shots won't be problem any more with this..
what's starting fov in wider side? it would be nice if start from 20-24mm (ff) or even less, (super) wide fov is something i do miss on phone for my work etc.
"Like other recent high-resolution smartphone sensors, the 108MP juggernaut will likely not be designed to output full resolution images but instead deliver image data that can be subjected to all sorts of computational imaging trickery, resulting in better detail, lower noise, a wider dynamic range and better zoom performance among others."
Yes i read the article. The article states "The Elec claims the new tele camera will debut in the next generation Galaxy S11 device and will be accompanied by a 108MP main camera." The word accompanied makes me think the tele will be a second camera along side the 108 MP camera. The video also makes this more clear when it shows the main camera and secondary telephoto camera.
Building the new dinosaurs. Having the phone go off on a super-specialized tangent. And folks didn't want to carry a standalone camera. Now, many almost do.
Samsung had high end larger smartphone sensors (in the 1/2" -1/1.7" category with 40-64MP) for years, but always stuck with the 1/2.55" due to cost, readout speed, dual pixel focus etc...
So I doubt they are going to use their massive new 1/1.33" 108MP chip.
The march of the smartphone cameras continues... I'm really curious to see the size of the step forward here. Samsung haven't upgraded their sensors in something like 4 years, so this could potentially be a huge change. Might even be enough to get me to sell my Sony RX100 VI
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