@ whakapu: I struggle to see your point. There are a lot of sports, action and wildlife photographers that doesn't use those very long and extremely bright lenses. If you really need one of those, you can mount Sony A 300 mm f:2.8 and 500 mm f:4 and even use teleconverters for longer reach, or you can adapt C/N lenses. So for those already have N/C lenses, this new super camerais like a gift from heaven!

For us who don't use or accept adapted lenses, well, I think we just have to wait a while for native E mount lenses. Meanwhile Sony should sell tons of A9 cameras, both for those using shorter lenses - and professionals using those ultra-bright super telephoto lenses!

@ whakapu: Don't be fixated on one kind of use. There are much more to sports/action/wildlife photography than just super-long lenses and tight crop!

@ whakapu: Didn't you get it? this camera is developed closely with professional photographers. The spesifications are just what the main target group is asking for. They are not asking for a much slower 42 Mp camera.

When Sony comes with more A7 and A9 cameras, and also more lenses, I think we clearly will see where they are heading.

This camera would have to be properly sealed from the dust/water and advertised as such for serious consideration by outdoor photographers to use, especially at the price this camera commands.

Just because lowly dSLR's that aren't sealed and survive would in no way give me a warm and fuzzy feeling to use this $5K camera (after taxes) + lens in the rain.

@Gmon750 - if you're really concerned about shooting in the rain, then spend $6500-7000 (after taxes) on a 1DXII or D5. Or get a weather-resistant A9, and add a $20 rain cover for extra protection. The reality is that there are very few shooters who will shoot out in the rain with a totally naked camera and lens, no matter what degree of weather sealing. Even shooters using a 1DXII or D5 will slap on a rain cover when the rain comes down.

http://www.borrowlenses.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/171283985.jpg

Dave, do you remember how small and light (compared to D5/D1X) film SLRs were? I don't remember pros ever taking issue with that...

Huge sizes of first DSLRs were a necessity, a necessary evil. As technologies change, we should fully expect form factors to change as well.

No-one laments extinction of form-factor of first mobile (or should I say "transportable"?) phones. Granted, things do get too small at times... Remember "Cell phone is the only thing about which men argue whose is smaller"? Sony did get into that territory with *some* of their cameras, but IMHO not with the A7/A9 line.

For us who have worked with A7 series cameras for some years, ergonomy is just fine, no matter small or large lenses. I really like that the A9 is kept small and lightweight.

It is just a myth that you need large cameras for big and heavy lenses. Large cameras just add more weight, and they do not provide better balancee. They just make handheld photography even more troublesome.

Why does the camera need to be bigger for big lenses? My A7R2 and Tamron 150-600 do just fine. You do support the lens with your palm don't you?

Magnar W,
It is false to say:
>>For us who have worked with A7 series cameras for some years, ergonomy is just fine, no matter small or large lenses
I worked with A7R II as its early adopter to this day that is already 'years' and I still find its size and ergonomics crappy. So do not speak for all please and do not generalize. Ergonomics on Sony are not fine and with this camera they even made it worse since keeping the same body size but increasing the battery with wider grip the fingers are now crashed against larger lenses.

T3,
>>First of all, Sony offers a battery grip for the A9
And frankly I still find it odd that Canon camera (I have Sony and Canon full systems with native lenses on both now) is still better in hand without a grip than Sony with a grip. It is just somehow not that comfortable. And Sony without grip has no good grip as I only have 3 finger grip. But even with the grip is still not on a par.

@miksto
"It cannot be good for pro camera not to have full grip" - again vertical grip takes care of this
" it cannot be good to have your fingers crashed against the larger lens as with A9"
this needs to be seen yet as a real issue.
Would you like to state what sort of experience do you have in shooting with Sony A7II bodies? Your criticism seem to be based more on internet surfing than personal experience.

So you think a professional tools is built like a plastic toy? After working as a professional with Sony cameras for years, I can assure you that they are well built and don't break down.

It doesn't matter what Sony does, Canon and Nikon fanboys will always find something to nit-pick about. Just look at the Sony A7Rii vs the D810 and 5D Mark IV; higher resolution, best-in-class Dynamic Range & ISO performance, a tilting LCD display, IBIS, focus peaking, manual focus zoom, eye detection, zebra, compressed 1080p & 4k... And yet, it's not enough. They complain about the ergonomics, the menu system, poor battery life and lack of dual card slots. Give me a break! Since when is a photographer willing to take images with less detail, less dynamic range and more noise because they don't want to get used a new menu system and carry around a few extra batteries? Now the A9 has dual card slots, no shutter lag, larger battery, touchscreen and a host of new features. It has higher resolution, higher frame rate, tilting LCD and $1,000 - $1,500 cheaper then the D5 and 1DX. Now the complaints are Sony is missing long prime lenses and the body is too small. I mean seriously!

"Since when is a photographer willing to take images with less detail, less dynamic range and more noise because they don't want to get used a new menu system and carry around a few extra batteries?"

Since forever? Since photographers got hired to cover events?
Sure the A9 fixes some of the problems with the A7 series, but at half the resolution so if you're shooting a 30+ MP this is not for you and you still need to deal with all that crap

The A6300 & A6500 are not A6000 Replacements. They belong in different segments due to their price points.

You used it as an example of them "not innovating or pushing tech" which is not true, as you can plainly see from the differences between the A600 and the A6500.

Hold a D5 or even a D750 all day and then an a9. You'll see where DSLRs still reign. Try getting through a day on one battery. And you'll see where DSLRs still reign.

There has already been mention of a single battery lasting over 2000 shots.
If you use the grip with a total of 2 batteries I would think you should clear a days shooting relatively easy.
For paid work, I would use this with the grip without a doubt.

This is much what internet discussion on new photo gear is about - fear and worries!

If Sony stop pushing the development of mirrorless camera technology, others for sure will take over. Your example, saying there has not been any development after the A6000, arguing that newer A6xxx cameras are not in the same category, is not valid. There newer A6xxx cameras, as well as the A9, proves that there have been extensive development!

- They came out with a new 70-400 and the full frame system is less than 4 years old, the pace they are keeping with the development of new lenses is quite impressive and I'm sure longer lenses will come relatively soon. Patience :)

- They also announced a new pro support

- SD cards are not so slow and the camera can do more than 200 shots at 20fps like this. The buffer clearance times are to be seen but I'm guessing it could be not such a big of a deal, even the 42 and 50mpx A99II and 5DIV are not using XQD and nobody died yet :P

brendon1000
I absolutely realize that you need to have really tiny hand to have a good grip on this camera and vast majority of people on planet Earth do not have such tiny hands unless they are still kids. This makes a big difference on long shoot out. Canon and Nikon are good as they are while with A7R II my hands get tired a lot faster if I have a heavy lens on.
And the Sony's battery grip - the additional separately purchased one - is not as comfy as Canon or Nikon without any additional grip and still is worse on battery than Canon or Nikon without additional grip.
I also absolutely realize that crashing fingers against a large lens is no good for ergonomics for any persons.

Basically the camera ergonomics are not designed for large lenses and it is thus not ergonomics for professionals despite there is enough technology inside for professionals.

SimonRW
I did not try Olympus - you may be right there. I only tried Canon and Nikon and Sony for prolonged periods of time. I have Canon and Sony gear now with a slew of native lenses for both. And Sony despite having good technology loses for me in two important areas:
1) Ergonomics. I tried day shoots with Canon and Sony - both with large native lenses. And Canon wins on ergonomics judging purely by how tired my hand is at the end of the day. It is not really about weight - I have strong enough hands. But it is about the size not being big enough for good grip (and vertical grip is not as comfy as Canon without additional grip and is still worse on battery life). If they now added in A9 crashing your fingers against the lens then things must have got worse.
2) Low light auto focus. Too often my A7R II does not focus at all or hunts a lot with mixed success in low light low contrast situations where my Canon gear has no problems and acquires focus instantly.

@miksto - I think you will find India and China are where the vast majority of the people live and they have generally smaller hands than people from Europe and USA. So majority of people in the world have smaller not larger hands. Heck I am 6 feet tall but my hands are comparatively smaller than my US based friend who is a few inches shorter than me.

I am surprised by your low light AF issues. I have shot regularly in low light with lots of lenses and never faced any issues with my A7rII. Even Dpreview did a test and the A7rII came out on tops. So its surprising to read about your user experience there.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6884391759/sony-alpha-7r-ii-can-match-or-beat-dslr-low-light-af-performance

Actually you must be right on China and India - didn't take that into account.

As for low light AF issues then they can only be understood in comparison. There are two big problems with Sony AF:
1) It is on-sensor. It means that AF depends on lens aperture while focusing. Sony A9 claimed to have -3EV sensitivity and this is better than A7 line's -2EV. However, this figures are only for F2. It is rather odd to give sports camera sensitivity figure at F2 given that there are no long lenses with F2 that could make use of this.
Best DSLRs have -4EV and -3EV sensitivity that does not depend on F.
2) The phase detection points are not cross type what basically means if you have no contrast in the right direction you are out of luck and it has nothing to focus on.

I have a wooden table with fine wood structure. It is not of high contrast and is painted over. In the evening my Sony A7R II cannot focus on this table at all - it hunts a lot and does not focus. While Canon does so instantly.

Yeah it's ashame, Sony didn't come out with more tele lenses at the same time. A mount lenses adapted get up to 10 fps but other adapted lenses are only at 5 fps so obiviously not a sport camera with adapted lenses. Plus the asterisk after the 20 fps states speeds will vary based on lens and doesn't list speeds for each lens so who knows if that speed is only for the sport lenses, all two of them.

At first, i think that adapting lenses is not the solution. I'm more than sure, that if u adapt a 300mm f2.8 to the sony and then want to shoot any kind of fast moving sport or even track the subject, that u will probably get zero shots in focus, bc the autofocous with adapted lenses is just (by a lot) slower. Secondly, yes i agree with you, the 100-400 is a good start, but not a professional option. You got a f5.6 at 400mm while those shooting with their canon or nikon have a f2.8 option with their tele lenses. I don't even see a huge problem in terms of iso, the sony low light performance is great, so those 2 stops shouldnt ruin the picture. But in terms of Backgroundblurr a 5.6 just cant keep up with a 2.8, but as i said it is a good start. Lastly, i don't think that people are always just wanting to complain. It's just that sonys FE-Mount system in the beginning wasn't complete at all, just basic lenses for those high end cameras were missing. But sony was really good in that regard, and brought out many lenses over the years, many very good performing lenses. But now, if they are bringing out a camera, geared clearly to sports fotography, and they only have a 70-200 f2.8 and a 100-400 f4-5.6 it clearly is no competitor for canon and nikon, just because of the missing lenses. For example 300&400 f2.8 &500&600 f4. Also things like the 200-400 f4 or a 120-300 f2.8 are missing. Even the way cheaper f4 or f5.6 versions of those tele primes( often used by consumers and not only pros) are missing. And thats why I think, that the camera isn't a real competitor for the 1dx II or nikon d5, again because of sonys lens system.

The reason the 200-400 f4 was used so frequently is because it has a 1.4 extender attached if you read the article you linked. The 400 f2.8 was used for a lot of the published work, as well as the 70-200 f2.8(Sony has one). Fixed aperture lens are drastically different for pros than varying aperture lenses, which I don't know any pro that uses varying. You never know what aperture your in without constantly checking, no aperture ring set to what aperture you want than you can zoom from there. Changing the aperture will change many other settings on your camera so it's a pain to use a varying aperture lens with no aperture ring. That's why I hope Sony doesn't get discouraged for releasing a sport and wildlife camera before it's lens if these types of photographers don't switch to Sony until the lenses or if the lenses every become available. Also why is there no weather sealing on the picture of the battery door, no rubber gaskets nothing, that's also something I look at.

What a strange angle you managed to be able to look at the situation.
Fascinating. How do you skip seeing,
- 1dxii and D5 challenger camera for a significantly lower price.

I agree… I had an A7 in the past and I often wished it were bit bigger. It could accommodate a bigger battery (much needed…), have a better grip, and balance with something besides the few small Sony/Ziess primes.

700+ is probably too much for the staff to address seriously, so you have the answer in your questioning to my sense... and everything is in the article. Don't you think ? I think they are right not to be involved in too numerous and probably only polemical threads. As a reader, my need is to read real and serious journalistic work. So thank you DPR to use your time wisely.

@UneVache: not sure if you missed that post from a few days ago, but to clarify this is what I was talking about
- DPR "journalism": https://www.dpreview.com/news/1896381164/sony-is-now-2-in-the-us-full-frame-interchangeable-lens-camera-market
- example of how it could (should?) be: https://photographylife.com/sony-overtakes-nikon-in-full-frame-sales/

My question to DPR still stands...

(and I won't respond to ad hominem attacks)

Greg VdB, the photographylife article is really bad. First they say they couldn't find the data. Have they checked with the original source to ask for it?

Then they point it's meaningless because of the time frame. Well, that's not for a journalist to decide.

After, is the period. Apparently his opinion is that no one buys cameras in January.. What? Of course people buy cameras in Jan/Feb...

He still goes on and says that anyone that wants to buy a FF Nikon has already done so... Is he kidding? So if my camera fails I can't buy another one? I can't decide to upgrade now?

The entire article is a "me, me, me", totally ignoring the rest of the world. That's exactly how an article shouldn't be...

dpreview = amazon, it's a sales channel still very much looking like a pops and mons webside.
The same sentiment about the sony numbers by Thom http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/sony-throws-some-smack.html

"advanced access" - what do you mean by this? there are already a dozen videos on YouTube by those at the press event with hands on access. It's pretty clear a lot people got invited to that event. It seems as though some did get early access (those on stage), though dpreview doesn't seem to be one of them and not sure why they would be.

@Greg VdB no worries, I think I understood your feeling about all that. That doesn't change the fact that it's probably impossible to address 700+ messages for the team. That was all I meant.
But, you're right, this article is to be taken with a grain of salt and many forgot to say that the data was about dollars, so probably turnover/sales and, as already said, on a short and unrepresentative period. There is more to conclude about units sales and the evolution of the market over years. So yes, it can be presumed it is a Sony's marketing campaign opportunistic claim. For the rest, no clue about DPR's intentions though, to me. At worst, they probably simply don't want to be more polemical. I may be naive though ;).

I think the staff didn't respond to the comments on the Sony press release thread because they are utterly bemused (and possibly even disturbed) by the riot of responses any Sony threads receive from non-Sony users, who seem to believe there is a need and they have a duty to object to anything and everything posted about Sony.

We all have our individual preferences and reasons for using the equipment we do but there is an immense lack of objectivity in the posting in Sony threads and a curious anger.

Much of this appears to come from people who don't understand that the success of companies is never continually upwards and that technology is both a game changer and a moving target.

It's mostly Sony Greg. I've never seen anyone describe a Nikon or Canon camera as 'a mess', 'not a real camera', or 'junk', but this routinely happens in Sony threads. You can find the the a9 described as a 'toy' on this very page. What can you say to a brand warrior who thinks it's worthwhile posting that the a9 is a toy?

Believe it or no these people aren't stupid, they're just angry that Sony might be considered to be superior in any way or area to their chosen brand.

Canon's big stick to beat down the Sony users is that they are 'number one'. Not that their products are better that they are #1 in the market.

Now DPreview is not an investigative journalism site and it doesn't investigate the truth of press releases (beyond testing cameras). It doesn't matter whether the Sony press release is true or not true, when Nikon issue a press release it gets treated in the same way. It gets printed without comment.

I am sure that was funny in your head.

Yes UneVache's possibly thought that his joke was hillarious

People are much more willing to keep posting stupid comments instead of actually spending a minute and reading how CIPA rating works once.

However, it does show how confusing and outdated CIPA rating system is and how it's going to get worse in upcoming years. E-M1 II is rated at 440 shots, but I routinely get over 1500 with it every time. With A9 sports and action shooters will probably easily get several thousands shots per charge.

Sorry rubberdials but it's a perfect valid point about battery life I don't know why you have a problem with it

@Nikoncanonfan, sorry, but it isn't "valid point" at all. CIPA rating involves taking a picture every 30 seconds with screen ON between them, with half of those shots using flash and the camera being cycled on and off every 10 shots.

This system is OK for evaluating a battery life a typical consumer camera in casual shooting conditions, but it translates very poorly to professional equipment used by professionals in shooting conditions with a lot of bursting and no "chimping".

Weird how I need to educate people on this basic knowledge even though all it takes is a minute of reading.

@Melchiorum Well, the user calls himself "Nikoncanonfan".

The CIPA testing method doesn't apply for the mirrorless cameras correctly what so ever.

CIPA claims values like 340-350 frames for many mirrorless cameras, yet you can get 4000-5000 from them easily when doing timelapse or avarage 900-2000 when doing common photography.

The thing is, mirrorless cameras battery isn't frame based, it is time based. The sensor is operating continually and it dies in specific hours did you take single photo or thousands of photos.

So example when the battery lasts 3 hours, then you have that money hours time to take as many photos you want really.

Sorry stephanbg but there's no way I would embarrass myself in good company with a sad rebadged Minolta I'll spend my hard earned an a proper camera not by a company that made poor hifis in the 80s...

@Nikoncanonfan, yeah, you wouldn't embarrass yourself with that. You'd rather embarrass yourself by openly displaying your fandom and allegiance to a corporate brand, your lack of basic knowledge and common sense, and your overwhelming need for petty self-assertion through bashing other brands.

Don't want to sound condescending or something, but maybe one day you'll realize that the best gear is the one that suits your needs, and not the one that has a badge of particular brand on it.

No melchriom the best gear is a 1dSEX with some stonking L glass not this overpriced toy camera, or even better a Leica M10 handmade by craftsmen in Germany which incidently you would be well on the way to instead of buying this *insert expletive*

Who the hell is going to shoot 650 consecutive shots at 20fps? What idiot calls himself a "photographer" by holding down a shutter button for 32 seconds? Your calculation has little to no relevance to real world usage because no one is going to blow through 600+ shots in a single burst by holding the shutter down that long. And yes, 32 seconds is a LONG time. If you don't believe me, just set a timer and see for yourself how long 32 seconds is. That's a LONG time to be holding down the shutter button.

@Yxa: "The D5 has a CIPA rating of 3780 shots, what does that say you?"

It says that it doesn't have a flash. :) Did you bother at least to read the comments above, if you don't care to search/read what that CIPA rating is?

Read sonys site, in asterisk, rolling shutter varies by lens and is greatly reduced by in camera software correction with another asterisk, in camera rolling shutter software reduction works in conjunction with certain lenses, wait another asterisk FPS varies based on lens with another asterisk battery life varies based on lens with another asterisk battery life varies based on EVF frame refresh settings and the asterisks keep coming. So until Sony clarifies that, Sony could mean only their sport lenses which at this moment is two tele zooms and know one but Sony can clarify any of this until cameras are in the wild.

Last few? Lol!

Yes but we wouldn't be seen dead with a minolta/sony atrocity will be interesting if the next 1dx goes mirrorless but I'll buy it anyway not this junk

Mac McCreery - did you get your"last few" statistic from from the misleading Sony Number 2 in north America for full frames article? Lol!

Pro users from Canon or Nikon still have there Pro support in the field when needed (30 years NPS member).

Sony needs to up their Pro service 😉

Nikon will get this chip also later. No problem

Aroart
You seam to have a problem with your keyboard

George.Read my very short post very carefully.

Sony makes some claims but as usual they are followed by many asterisks, fps varies by lens, battery life varies by lens and rolling shutter in camera software correction varies by lens. So before pros jump on board some real world testing needs to be done. Many reviews already stated two of the door opening seem flimsy and that alone will stop a D5 or 1D owner from buying this camera, it's needs to handle all extremes without failing. These cameras are tanks that always work and don't vary on how they work if you decided to use a single focal length lens over one of sonys only two sport lens. So if the frame rate and others only apply to their sport lens line up of two than what's the point.

Ok my bad . Old people will live and die with Canotikons.. The new bread will laugh at Dslrs dinosaurs.. YES it's a fact about most former Canon 5dm3 video shooters switching from Sony.. I frequent B&H and know almost everyone in the used sales department . I know quite a few NY based videographers and they all switched to the Sony a7 .. Photographers are also using Sony as there second body .. I also went to NAB LAST YEAR AND SAW MOST VIDEO SHOOTERS USE SONY & PANASONIC WHEN 5 YRS AGO EVERYONE HAD MOSTLY CANON.. Sony also made a statement on Sony pro service having a NY & CA location.. The salesmen at B&H laughed when I showed them footage from hobby multicopter videos 6 yrs ago and told them this is the future .. oh and guess what there best selling item was for the past 2yrs.. Hint it's starts with DJI.. if Canon and Nikon don't WAKE UP THEY WILL BE DINOSAURS...

...and this is what a fanboi looks like. Don't let your kids grow up to be fanbois.

DSLRs are dinosaurs for sure. They ruled the planet for 65M years. Took a giant asteroid to wipe them out, now all that is left of them are birds, which are everywhere today.

Pro tools are work tools, Pros will switch when the product works for them. Until the A9 has a lens library that allows the Pro to switch, he/she won't even bother looking at it. Which is the situation today. 100-400 variable aperture is not a lens library when it only has one companion in the 70-200/2.8.

The A9 doesn't do enough. Yet.

And I don't think bread can laugh. You got a rise out of me with that one.

Keep your left hand under big and heavy lenses, and any lens will balance very well with any camera! This is how photographers have used their lenses for decades, long before digital, when SLR cameras was the same size and weight as the A7/A9 cameras, and did not even have an extra grip!

Magnar, yes I know, it's possible to get shots with any sized lens and any sized, functioning camera. Thank you for stating the obvious.

My point is that big lens + big grip is better than big lens + small grip in terms of ergonomics. Do you disagree?