T3

Lives in United States United States
Joined on Jul 1, 2003

Comments

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In reply to:

T3: I think the fact that we're even talking about the focus capability of adapted lenses is pretty extraordinary. Up until very recently in camera history, the only "focus capability" of adapted lenses was manual focus! So I find it a rather silly thing to be complaining about. It's like complaining about that the new Image Stabilization feature in a body or lens only offers 2 or 3 stops of stabilization instead of 4 or 5 stops, when the prior alternative-- up until that moment in history-- was having no Image Stabilization at all.

@davev8 - My argument is that adaptability is an advantage. Plain and simple. It's an advantage now, and will be an advantage into the future, even as Sony fills out their lens system. We're going to get to a point where it doesn't matter if you're using a Sony lens or a Canon lens on a Sony body. So all those Canon EF mount lenses you speak of will work on a Sony body. That is an advantage. These lenses will also get the advantage of Sony's IBIS. That is an advantage. If you want to base your argument on this single moment in time, based on the limitation of cameras not being able to perform well beyond 5fps AF tracking, that's fine. But I'm thinking long term, and at the broader picture. Adaptability is better than no adaptability. (Advantage.) AF is better than no AF. (Advantage.) 5fps AF tracking is better than no AF tracking. (Advantage.)

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 19:32 UTC
In reply to:

Magnar W: The less than optimal performance with long, bright Canon lenses does only concern Canon photographers who already have these lenses, an that are tempted to try the Sony A9. Other photographers buying the A9 will for sure NOT buy such a monster lens from Canon and an adapter. StilI the performance is impressive, taking in account that these are adapted lenses! I would guess that we soon will see some sports/wildlife/ction lenses form Sony.

@A-Sign - "Adapters don't have the full feature set for example Eye AF."

Not yet, anyways. I can see that feature being unlocked in the future. Besides, I'm not getting eye AF with my Canon lenses on any Canon bodies anyways! Heck, I'm not even getting face AF on my Canon bodies! The ability to put a Canon lens on a Sony body and get face AF along with IBIS are already two advantages over using the same lenses natively on Canon bodies. And hopefully, these capabilities will be extended to Nikon lenses soon.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 19:22 UTC
In reply to:

Keyboq: It's just a strategy to sell their soon-to-be-released lenses. Considering its price, A9 body is just more than a great deal that Sony can't make much of a profit out of it.

@A-Sign - I've traveled all over the world with an A6000. I've shot through very hot climates with the A6000 (Dubai, India, Singapore, Vietnam) and it has never had any problems. On top of that, I have it in a silicon body case:

http://imgur.com/a/BZW3j

https://www.amazon.com/Silicone-Protective-Alpha-A6000-16-50mm/dp/B00VJNTGIO

NEVER had a problem with it, in spite of shooting in extremely hot environments, at 11fps, with a silicon rubber body case.

I've also never had any back/front focus issues with my A6000 either, which I've had with my Canon DSLRs, that required micro-adjust focus calibration. That's just one of those things you have to deal with on a DSLR, but not on mirrorless. Eventually manufacturers did add micro-adjust to many of their DSLRs, but I still feel like a beta tester for DSLR manufacturers!

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 19:09 UTC
In reply to:

Keyboq: It's just a strategy to sell their soon-to-be-released lenses. Considering its price, A9 body is just more than a great deal that Sony can't make much of a profit out of it.

@A-Sign - Not sure if you are aware of this, but Sony does offer a counterpart to the D810. It's called the A7R II.

Nikon D810: 36mp, 5fps, 51 AF points, no IBIS, no face/eye AF, $2,796.95
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1062499-REG/nikon_d_810_digital_slr_body.html

Sony A7R II: 42mp, 5fps, 399 AF points, IBIS, face/eye AF, $2,698.00
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1159878-REG/sony_a7r_mark_ii_digital.html

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 19:04 UTC
In reply to:

Keyboq: It's just a strategy to sell their soon-to-be-released lenses. Considering its price, A9 body is just more than a great deal that Sony can't make much of a profit out of it.

@A-Sign - I don't know why you keep posting that post as if it's something to brag about. A Sony A6000 shots at 11 fps, and it only costs $500! And it has 179 AF points that cover almost the whole frame.

https://4.img-dpreview.com/files/p/TS560x560~forums/58732708/621f5a170d36483bbbfa6e11aa3e1b5a

If you want fps speed and focus point coverage, DSLR isn't really the way to go. Mechanical shutter and mirror are physical limitations of DSLR technology. And it's more costly.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 18:54 UTC
In reply to:

Keyboq: It's just a strategy to sell their soon-to-be-released lenses. Considering its price, A9 body is just more than a great deal that Sony can't make much of a profit out of it.

@Fujica - Electronic shutters are the future of cameras. The A9's stacked BSI sensor is a breakthrough. We are increasingly going to see more electronic shutters being used because cameras are increasingly becoming solid-state devices. Old mechanical shutters and mechanical flipping mirrors are going to steadily decline in usage. These things are increasingly going to be seen as extraneous limitations to performance. Solid state cameras that don't rely on mechanical things such as shutters and mirrors will perform better, faster, more quietly, and be cheaper to produce. The A9 is just the beginning.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 18:43 UTC
In reply to:

T3: I think the fact that we're even talking about the focus capability of adapted lenses is pretty extraordinary. Up until very recently in camera history, the only "focus capability" of adapted lenses was manual focus! So I find it a rather silly thing to be complaining about. It's like complaining about that the new Image Stabilization feature in a body or lens only offers 2 or 3 stops of stabilization instead of 4 or 5 stops, when the prior alternative-- up until that moment in history-- was having no Image Stabilization at all.

@Deliverator - "That's the Sony fanboy mantra: spin it positively in the face of all facts:

"No native long glass? - That's not a bug, that's a feature!"

Who is saying that? Obviously, we all want Sony to have native long lenses. But being able to have the additional option to use excellent Canon or Nikon lenses is an added benefit. Especially if you already have them. Why is that so hard to accept? We should all be happy that Canon lenses can be adapted to Sony bodies! It gives us more options.

Some people are too accepting of being locked in. Canon lenses can't be used on Nikon bodies, and vice versa. How is that a good thing? Wouldn't it be nice to *not* have that restriction? Same with Canon not allowing their APS-C lenses to be mounted on there FF bodies. Nikon allows it, Sony allows it, Pentax allows it. And yet, some people just blindly accept these restrictions of compatibility.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 18:31 UTC
In reply to:

T3: I think the fact that we're even talking about the focus capability of adapted lenses is pretty extraordinary. Up until very recently in camera history, the only "focus capability" of adapted lenses was manual focus! So I find it a rather silly thing to be complaining about. It's like complaining about that the new Image Stabilization feature in a body or lens only offers 2 or 3 stops of stabilization instead of 4 or 5 stops, when the prior alternative-- up until that moment in history-- was having no Image Stabilization at all.

@davev8 - Your argument is based on the assumption that Sony will never have native telephoto primes of their own. That's certainly not going to be the case. Sony is said to be releasing a 400mm prime later this year. And they will certainly have more by the time the 2020 Olympics roll around. So the advantage is that Sony allows users to use native lenses in addition to non-native lenses. That's an advantage.

The great thing about where we're headed is that we're steadily moving towards more "universal" bodies. Right now I can take a Sony A9 and put any Canon lens I want on it. Sure, there are currently limitations (such as being limited to 5fps tracking AF). But it's still an advantage! I think the only people who don't see that adaptability to be an advantage are those who like being locked into a particular system. This current generation (who is accustomed to this 'enslavement', hahaha) finds it acceptable. But the next generation may not.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 18:27 UTC
In reply to:

Matsu: Sony is quickly building a nice E mount alpha system, but adapted lenses were never really more than a marketing ploy. It's not a useful tool outside of very limited circumstances - focus peaking manual usage for stills and adapted lenses for manual focus pulling in a cinematic application. People using modern AF are best advised to stick to native lenses - regardless of system. Even own brand adaptation introduces one more mount tolerance than is needed in the system.

@A-Sign - Sure, you may be married to DSLRs, and are unwilling to look anywhere else. But the next generation of photographers isn't married to DSLRs.

The older generation always says stuff like "But do i really need it? No. Sorry. Simple answer. Period." People like you said that about AF. "Pfft, I can manually focus just fine!" They said that when Canon introduced IS lenses. "Ha! I can handhold my camera better than anyone!" When Canon introduced their first 45 AF point focus system, people like you said, "Yawn! I just need one focus point!" When Canon had FF DSLRs, and Nikon didn't, Nikon users said, "Ugh, I don't need FF. It's a dead format. Period." My point is that there are people who will always dismiss what they (or their brand) don't have. It's just human nature, I guess.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 18:11 UTC
In reply to:

Keyboq: It's just a strategy to sell their soon-to-be-released lenses. Considering its price, A9 body is just more than a great deal that Sony can't make much of a profit out of it.

@A-Sign - "The main advantage of the A9 is purely the Sony sensor."

You're forgetting 693 AF points covering 93% of the frame, edge to edge. Compare D5 and 1DX II focus point coverage:
https://cdn.photographylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Nikon-D5-vs-Canon-1D-X-Mark-II-Viewfinder.png
To Sony A9's:
https://cdn.photographylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Sony-A9-Focus-Point-Coverage.jpg

Also: 20fps, no blackout, no rolling shutter, silent, adaptable, face/eye AF, IBIS...in addition to the awesome sensor. And $4500 price take that significantly undercuts the competition (1DX II $6000, D5 $6500).

To say that "The main advantage of the A9 is purely the Sony sensor. Nothing else" is pretty absurd.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 18:04 UTC
In reply to:

Magnar W: The less than optimal performance with long, bright Canon lenses does only concern Canon photographers who already have these lenses, an that are tempted to try the Sony A9. Other photographers buying the A9 will for sure NOT buy such a monster lens from Canon and an adapter. StilI the performance is impressive, taking in account that these are adapted lenses! I would guess that we soon will see some sports/wildlife/ction lenses form Sony.

@A-Sign - Wow, you don't get it, do you? All these adapters are the work of third parties. Sony doesn't have to lift a finger. It's the open market that is taking care of it. But Sony has no problem with it (they've even demoed third-party adapters in their press junkets) because they see it as a net positive: it makes it easier to move into the Sony MILC system. That's a huge advantage that no other brand has ever had on their side. Think of the uphill battle that Canon had when they launched the EOS system, trying to get Nikon users to switch! They couldn't boast that you could still use Nikon AF lenses on Canon EOS bodies. That made switching all the more challenging to do. And yet, they still managed to convince a lot of Nikon users to switch. Sony, on the other hand, can say, "Look, there are third-party adapters that allow you to AF your Canon lenses on our bodies!" That definitely lowers the friction and obstacle of switching. It's an easier transition.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 17:56 UTC
In reply to:

mr.izo: good to sony have some nice, fast pro 300 , 400mm + lenses.

@A-Sign - You can bet Sony will have these lenses out before the 2020 Olympics in Japan. Sony will purportedly have a 400mm out later this year:
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/whats-next-sony-135mm-fe-400mm-fe-rx-camera/

In other words, far quicker than your "next 3-5 years" claim.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 17:48 UTC
In reply to:

LightBug: Title is misleading. It's the combo of A9 plus adapter that are being evaluated, title seems to suggest A9 is solely responsible for the performance reported.

@A-Sign - Keep milking that "where are the Sony lenses" argument, because there's definitely a time limit on it. That argument is going to increasingly be less valid and more ridiculous/desperate.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 17:46 UTC
In reply to:

Matsu: Sony is quickly building a nice E mount alpha system, but adapted lenses were never really more than a marketing ploy. It's not a useful tool outside of very limited circumstances - focus peaking manual usage for stills and adapted lenses for manual focus pulling in a cinematic application. People using modern AF are best advised to stick to native lenses - regardless of system. Even own brand adaptation introduces one more mount tolerance than is needed in the system.

@AtlantaWeddingpro - "A-sign you forgot the best. Canon 1dx mk ii 16 fps."

But consider this: the 1DX II is the pinnacle of DSLR technology. It does 14fps with AF tracking. (You only get 16fps in Live View). It does it with mirror black out. It does it with 61 AF points. And it does it for $6000.

The A9 comes along as a FIRST GENERATION high speed FF sports MILC. It does it with 20fps, silent, no rolling shutter, no black out, with 693 AF points covering 93% of the viewfinder edge-to-edge, with face/eye AF, with IBIS, and it does it for $4500. And you can use Canon lenses on it, albeit at slower fps (with current smart adapters).

I hope you see my point. A pinnacle DSLR vs the first-gen A9.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 17:38 UTC
In reply to:

Matsu: Sony is quickly building a nice E mount alpha system, but adapted lenses were never really more than a marketing ploy. It's not a useful tool outside of very limited circumstances - focus peaking manual usage for stills and adapted lenses for manual focus pulling in a cinematic application. People using modern AF are best advised to stick to native lenses - regardless of system. Even own brand adaptation introduces one more mount tolerance than is needed in the system.

@A-Sign - But it's not necessarily the norm for most shooters. Plenty of Canon 6D users are perfectly fine with 4.5fps. Plenty of Nikon D810 shooters are perfectly fine with 5fps.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 17:30 UTC
In reply to:

Magnar W: The less than optimal performance with long, bright Canon lenses does only concern Canon photographers who already have these lenses, an that are tempted to try the Sony A9. Other photographers buying the A9 will for sure NOT buy such a monster lens from Canon and an adapter. StilI the performance is impressive, taking in account that these are adapted lenses! I would guess that we soon will see some sports/wildlife/ction lenses form Sony.

@A-Sign - That's the current state of affairs. Who knows what the state of smart adapters will be like a few years from now? Keep in mind that smart adapters are still a very new, young technology. It's like the first smartphones compared to the smartphones of today. Smart adapters will get smarter.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 17:27 UTC
In reply to:

Edmond Leung: No business will take such high risk to use this a9 for major sport events.
Also, even if Sony can make tele primes, will you trust its quality and performance? Questionable!

@cbphoto123 - It's not a "a religious experience". (I think you are projecting your own feelings towards equipment onto me.) It's just practicality. Why shouldn't I be able to use my Canon EOS lenses on my Sony body if I want to? Because your brand god Canon says I can't? Heck, your Canon god even says you can't use their APS-C lenses on their FF bodies. Nikon allows it. Sony allows it. Pentax allows it. Some of us just don't like those arbitrary limitations. As a Canon user, I certainly didn't like it.

No, I'm not worshipping any brand, like you are. You even stated that you "embraced the system back then." Yikes! Who talks like that? Who says they "embraced the system"?!? Sounds like a hint of religiosity and devotion there. No, I don't have any particular "devotion" to any brand. I use Canon, Fuji, Samsung, Olympus, and Sony. They are all just tools.
http://imgur.com/a/QQCqw
http://imgur.com/a/BirBW

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 17:14 UTC
In reply to:

Matsu: Sony is quickly building a nice E mount alpha system, but adapted lenses were never really more than a marketing ploy. It's not a useful tool outside of very limited circumstances - focus peaking manual usage for stills and adapted lenses for manual focus pulling in a cinematic application. People using modern AF are best advised to stick to native lenses - regardless of system. Even own brand adaptation introduces one more mount tolerance than is needed in the system.

@Matsu - "It's not a useful tool outside of very limited circumstances."

I think you have it backwards. Most people are not blasting away with 5fps+ AF tracking. For most people, one shot, or up to 5fps bursts, is more the norm. It's shooting at faster than fps AF tracking, with super telephotos, that is more of the "very limited circumstances", i.e. it's not the norm for most shooters. Heck, a lot of DSLRs can't do any better than 5fps AF tracking even with native lenses!

The reality is that most shooters are usually just doing single-shot AF. Focus, shoot. Focus, shoot. That's not a "very limited circumstance" for most users. That's actually the norm!

I'm a Canon user who also uses Sony. I think lens adaptability is a great tool. It allows me to use my existing Canon lenses (no need to dump them just yet). And Sony IBIS bodies add stabilization to my non-IS Canon lenses. Bonus!

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 16:59 UTC
In reply to:

Ed Ingold: So long Canon lenses don't perform up to snuff on an A9 body. How do Sony lenses do on a Canon body? Even if the Canon AF is slow on the A9, what is the image quality? Does anyone care with sports photos, where the largest print is a magazine page at 100 dpi? Do the fifty or so pro sports shooters dictate what 100M or more non-sports shooters need? The A9 won't make coffee either. Does this mean coffee-drinkers should take a pass?

A demo of the A9's tracking capability was a football toss. You could read the label on individual frames. At that distance, a Canikon might miss if the ball were sitting on a bench. You can't track unless the subject is inside the lines, and the AF area on a D5 is about 25% of the image area. It's close to 95% in the A9, and there are 700 sensors.

Every new feature in a camera incites two other features bloggers wish it had. Personally, I'm waiting for the A9R, and if it gets 5 fps at 50+ MP, I'm happy. That will do me for HDR bracketing.

@A-Sign - I'm not so sure you're going to have to what "a very long time" with Sony. Sony is moving very quickly. Keep in mind that the Sony FF mirrorless system has only bee in existence 3 year, 8 months. The first couple years were pretty slow for Sony FF mirrorless, but it definitely seems like they are moving very fast now. And certainly, supporting the A9 with great lenses is a big motivator for them. Up until the A9, there really wasn't much point in offering fast pro telephoto primes. But now that they have a fast pro body, they have every incentive to offer the fast pro telephotos to use with the A9. Plus, the 2020 Olympics are on the horizon. You can bet that Sony are gearing up for that. Obviously, their aim isn't going to be to *dominate* those Olympics. But they will certainly want to prove that they can run with the big boys. Sony is definitely playing the long game. The A9 is the first of a new generation of cameras for the new generation of photographers.

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 16:50 UTC
In reply to:

Ed Ingold: So long Canon lenses don't perform up to snuff on an A9 body. How do Sony lenses do on a Canon body? Even if the Canon AF is slow on the A9, what is the image quality? Does anyone care with sports photos, where the largest print is a magazine page at 100 dpi? Do the fifty or so pro sports shooters dictate what 100M or more non-sports shooters need? The A9 won't make coffee either. Does this mean coffee-drinkers should take a pass?

A demo of the A9's tracking capability was a football toss. You could read the label on individual frames. At that distance, a Canikon might miss if the ball were sitting on a bench. You can't track unless the subject is inside the lines, and the AF area on a D5 is about 25% of the image area. It's close to 95% in the A9, and there are 700 sensors.

Every new feature in a camera incites two other features bloggers wish it had. Personally, I'm waiting for the A9R, and if it gets 5 fps at 50+ MP, I'm happy. That will do me for HDR bracketing.

@BJN - And now all of those "plenty of Canon lenses and third party lenses in the mount" can now be used on Sony bodies. It's just that-- with the current state of smart adapters-- you can't currently do faster than 5fps AF tracking. That's not a big deal for a lot of shooters. Plenty of DSLRs can't do any better than that even with native lenses!

Link | Posted on Jun 24, 2017 at 16:41 UTC
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