mgrum

Lives in United Kingdom United Kingdom
Joined on Jan 14, 2009

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On article Blackmagic Design announces Pocket Cinema Camera 4K (398 comments in total)
In reply to:

keeponkeepingon: I spent too much time reading this then realized I still don't know:

Can this "camera" take a still picture?

Also, as it's an 8.8 MP sensor. IF it was full frame with the same size pixels that would make it 17.6mp sensor. So then in theory it could be more sensitive than most of the 24mp+ full frame ILCs as it has bigger pixels? Or am I guessing wrongly?

I wonder why they are so careful not to mention the 8.8mp resolution but instead state it as 4096 x 2160. The crowd they are selling too won't care so why make me multiply?

@DrNoise

Insisting on measuring sensitivity per unit area just isn't useful to anyone. People tend to view images the same way regardless of the surface area of the sensor that produced them.

Likewise noise should be measured relative to the image as a whole, not according to arbitrary components of that image (pixels) which may be reinterpreted in any number of ways before the image is viewed.

If you measure sensitivity per sensor, and noise per image then the size of the pixel is irrelevant. Ultimately sensitivity is determined by how many photons are received during the exposure.

Link | Posted on Apr 18, 2018 at 20:20 UTC
In reply to:

barringtonpro1: Personally I like this, but most people can't tell the difference between cell phone quality chip and medium format quality chip, images. The rules of 1950's format still apply but, too few notice anymore. The "photo drawing true compression" from it's long focal length lenses and short distance must be beautiful.

The window of opportunity with this is maybe, 7 years, serving the uber rich. Wish I could be there.

@barringtonpro1

"This is how I photograph, you can call me wrong if you like."

You are wrong. Or more likely you are using the term "perspective" incorrectly.

"I do manipulate a photograph perspective with optical focal lengths"

You can't manipulate perspective (which includes relationship between the size of objects at different distances) by changing focal length alone. All you are changing is the field of view, if you stay in the same place everything inside that field of view will look the same.

You can give a different feel to your images this way, but the perspective has not changed, and you can do the same thing with any camera system, long focal lengths with a wide angle of view produce the same results and short focal lengths with a wide angle of view.

Link | Posted on Apr 18, 2018 at 06:48 UTC
On article Blackmagic Design announces Pocket Cinema Camera 4K (398 comments in total)
In reply to:

keeponkeepingon: I spent too much time reading this then realized I still don't know:

Can this "camera" take a still picture?

Also, as it's an 8.8 MP sensor. IF it was full frame with the same size pixels that would make it 17.6mp sensor. So then in theory it could be more sensitive than most of the 24mp+ full frame ILCs as it has bigger pixels? Or am I guessing wrongly?

I wonder why they are so careful not to mention the 8.8mp resolution but instead state it as 4096 x 2160. The crowd they are selling too won't care so why make me multiply?

@DrNoise

"FF pixels tend to be bigger physically (which gets us to the pixel size again, not sensor size)"

But even if the pixels weren't bigger, if they were exactly the same size (and resolution higher) noise would be less noticeable, which gets us right back to sensor size (same resolution and bigger pixels = less noise, more resolution same sized pixels less noise, what's the common factor?)

"Also, you can use a four of m4/3 sensors as one FF sensor and you will get the same result as FF, but that does not mean that each of m4/3 sensors suddenly became more sensitive."

Each sensor wouldn't but the system as a whole would collect 4x as much light and would therefore be 4x as sensitive to light.

"A sensitivity of a sensor is a sensitivity of a pixel."

Only if you look at one pixel at a time. Try looking at the whole image.

Link | Posted on Apr 14, 2018 at 08:59 UTC
In reply to:

David610: $3300 USD for 200mm f/3.2 FF equivalent? Agree it focuses close 1.4m. Value?
Sony A7R III seems better value.

@uMad

Yes the sensor is also taller. But the point remains, it's an incremental improvement over 35mm, not a whole new world. And it's a smaller increment than APS-C to 35mm for example.

"abd 3 times the price?
Here in Europe the Fuji is 6999 and you get a 1300€ off a lens, while the D850 is 3800€"

I said the lenses were three times the price. The body is only twice the price :)

Also, ignoring the patronising comment at the end, you are right that APS-C provides a very good value proposition. Unfortunately no-one is making high resolution sensors and really good lenses for APS-C.

Link | Posted on Apr 14, 2018 at 08:53 UTC
In reply to:

David610: $3300 USD for 200mm f/3.2 FF equivalent? Agree it focuses close 1.4m. Value?
Sony A7R III seems better value.

@uMad:

"sure I could. The smaller a sensor gets, the higher the lenses need to resolve. High resolution would mean a high contrast at 45lp/mm with a full frame camera."

Right, so the GFX sensor has is 22% wider than full frame so you would expect 22% more horizontal resolution.... for which you have to pay 3x the price for the lenses.

"the GFX system seems to go even further and the lenses outresolve those from 35mm, thus the end product is just a league of it's own"

22% more... "league of it's own". Yeah that doesn't compute.

Link | Posted on Apr 13, 2018 at 21:54 UTC
In reply to:

Thorgrem: It's a good idea to also mention the prices of new products in €.

It's simple the price in € equals the price in $, and the price in £ :(

Link | Posted on Apr 12, 2018 at 11:21 UTC
In reply to:

panther fan: Samples show cat eye bokeh. Am I the only one who would prefer round bokeh over perfect sharpness?

New lenses get ridiculously sharp and heavy, yet they can't solve this simple optical flaw. Similar to the last high end lens releases, like the Nikon 105mm F1.4 and the Sony 70-200 F2.8 GM

@panther fan "New lenses get ridiculously sharp and heavy, yet they can't solve this simple optical flaw"

They can solve this "simple optical flaw" but it would make the lenses even heavier and even more expensive.

Link | Posted on Apr 12, 2018 at 11:20 UTC
In reply to:

SimenO1: Its quite a price for such a lens. I guess the price are a result of a lack of healthy competition. If there was real competition the price would likely be much lower.

A 200/3,2 on FF will give us the same FOV, same DOF, same shot noise at the same shutter speed and so on. Resolution may be the only point where it is better then FF, but that is yet to be proven (5DSR+EF200/2.8 vs GFX+250/4 vs K-1 PS+200/2.8)

@lawny13

"I always think of the scaling up of lenses is kind of coupled to the price. As the glass cross-section or area increases, so does the cost"

There's very little difference in glass cross-section compared to say the Nikon 300mm f/4, which is a third of the price.

The price of this lens is nothing to do with increased cost of manufacture, it's about the small sales volume and lack of economies of scale.

Link | Posted on Apr 12, 2018 at 11:18 UTC
In reply to:

David610: $3300 USD for 200mm f/3.2 FF equivalent? Agree it focuses close 1.4m. Value?
Sony A7R III seems better value.

@uMad

Can you explain how shooting with a lens designed for a 43mm wide sensor is different to shooting with a lens designed for a 36mm wide sensor? What does the extra 3.5mm on each side get you? What happens when you crop an image from the GFX? Does it suddenly look much worse?

Link | Posted on Apr 12, 2018 at 11:11 UTC
On article Blackmagic Design announces Pocket Cinema Camera 4K (398 comments in total)
In reply to:

keeponkeepingon: I spent too much time reading this then realized I still don't know:

Can this "camera" take a still picture?

Also, as it's an 8.8 MP sensor. IF it was full frame with the same size pixels that would make it 17.6mp sensor. So then in theory it could be more sensitive than most of the 24mp+ full frame ILCs as it has bigger pixels? Or am I guessing wrongly?

I wonder why they are so careful not to mention the 8.8mp resolution but instead state it as 4096 x 2160. The crowd they are selling too won't care so why make me multiply?

@dr.noise

In your example you have three options, you either print images at the same area per pixel, in which case you view the FF image from further away (ever notice how people view images according to what's comfortable, not what the native resolution of the camera was) making the noise seem less. Option 2 is you print the image at the same size. Now the noise is much finer grained so less noticeable. Finally you can resample it to the same number of pixels and print the same size, in which case the noise averages out and you have less noise.

You can try to split hairs over the definition of sensitivity but most people use the term to mean the appearance of noise which is strongly related to sensor size and not pixel size.

"Smaller pixels overflow faster and once the data is lost, you cannot recover it by combining overflowed pixels"

For the same exposure smaller pixels receive less light, so the fact they overflow faster is cancelled out. M43 has no advantage there.

Link | Posted on Apr 11, 2018 at 21:14 UTC
On article Blackmagic Design announces Pocket Cinema Camera 4K (398 comments in total)
In reply to:

keeponkeepingon: I spent too much time reading this then realized I still don't know:

Can this "camera" take a still picture?

Also, as it's an 8.8 MP sensor. IF it was full frame with the same size pixels that would make it 17.6mp sensor. So then in theory it could be more sensitive than most of the 24mp+ full frame ILCs as it has bigger pixels? Or am I guessing wrongly?

I wonder why they are so careful not to mention the 8.8mp resolution but instead state it as 4096 x 2160. The crowd they are selling too won't care so why make me multiply?

"So which is it?"

If you print individual pixels and hang them on the wall then you should be concerned with per pixel sensitivity/noise, if you instead hang *images* on the wall then you should be concerned about the noise level integrated across the whole image, which is related to sensor size, not pixel size.

Link | Posted on Apr 11, 2018 at 19:29 UTC
In reply to:

ewelch: I so want to love the SL system. But it's so freaking big, and blocky, and the competition smokes it in so many ways.

"Again you're citing a camera that wasn't out in early 2017, the A7III"

I have literally not mentioned the A7III at all...

"Then the A7II most certainly has cyan and magenta blotching at above ISO 12,800. Therefore the SL is a better higher ISO body."

...or the A7II, I've been talking about the A7RII which is better in low light than the A7II.

"Please stop pretending I've not tried both extensively."

I'm not pretending anything.

"Regards the DXO websites its admission that they're not doing much real sensor testing has been hidden or removed."

I have no idea what you're talking about. Google turns up nothing.

"Sure you are."

Do you not understand the difference between a score and a measurement? DXO is widely criticised for the scores which are ridiculous, but not the actual measurements.

"You also cite Bill Claff."

Bill's site is a valuable resource, much better than a website that says "you have to have touched this camera to be able to form any opinion about it".

Link | Posted on Apr 11, 2018 at 19:04 UTC
In reply to:

ewelch: I so want to love the SL system. But it's so freaking big, and blocky, and the competition smokes it in so many ways.

"The draw of the SL in 2018 would be the lenses."

But the topic of this thread is the camera body...

"While until early 2017, it was a better higher ISO body than any Sony offering--yes even better than the A7SII."

I don't think so. The A7RIII is the same in terms of high ISO performance as the A7RII which was released before the SL, and has better normalised SNR. If you compare pixels then the SL will be ahead but that would be pointless.

"I have no interest in what DXO sensor scores say regards any digital camera body."

And neither do I.

"Now, until about 2 years ago the website was clear that most of the "testing" was based on software model running"

The section explaining the experimental setup was and still is there.

"DXO sensor scoring is widely understood to be a joke."

I'll state this again, as clearly as possible: I am not referring to DXO sensor scoring in any way.

"they've hidden, or removed, the "testing results" the were clearly no such thing"

No they haven't.

Link | Posted on Apr 11, 2018 at 12:09 UTC
In reply to:

ewelch: I so want to love the SL system. But it's so freaking big, and blocky, and the competition smokes it in so many ways.

So if you're looking to buy a 35mm full frame MILC your *only* choices are the SL or one of the Sony A7/A9s. Are you suggesting you shouldn't compare the cameras you are considering buying? Or you shouldn't even consider the A7RIII because it's unfair to the SL? I'm struggling to grasp your logic here.

"even more laughably you defend that citation."

I hope you're not drinking anything because I'm going to do it again...

"DXO sensor scores are widely known to be a joke"

Indeed. Which is why I've avoided quoting any of them. The raw data, such as the middle grey SNR figures I quoted, are not. SNR is extremely simple to calculate and the testing methodology (described in the "sensor testing protocol" section of the website) is sound - if you know of any systematic error in their method which invalidates the figures then please share it. But I suspect you don't, you're just parroting opinions you read online (LOL DXO is teh bad) without really understanding what they are based on.

Link | Posted on Apr 10, 2018 at 20:56 UTC
On article Blackmagic Design announces Pocket Cinema Camera 4K (398 comments in total)
In reply to:

Retzius: Its uglier than sin but I want one.

kinda like a Minolta DiMage mated with a Konica AiBorg

With 4K RAW recording at 60fps for $1295 it could be shaped like a dildo for all I care!

Link | Posted on Apr 10, 2018 at 19:20 UTC
On article Blackmagic Design announces Pocket Cinema Camera 4K (398 comments in total)
In reply to:

keeponkeepingon: I spent too much time reading this then realized I still don't know:

Can this "camera" take a still picture?

Also, as it's an 8.8 MP sensor. IF it was full frame with the same size pixels that would make it 17.6mp sensor. So then in theory it could be more sensitive than most of the 24mp+ full frame ILCs as it has bigger pixels? Or am I guessing wrongly?

I wonder why they are so careful not to mention the 8.8mp resolution but instead state it as 4096 x 2160. The crowd they are selling too won't care so why make me multiply?

Sensitivity is related to sensor area. You can measure it per pixel but that's meaningless as people view images not pixels.

They state the resolution as 4096x2160 because this is a video camera and it's standard these days to quote video resolution according to the horizontal number of pixels (2k, 4k, 8k etc.) if they quoted it as 8.8mp they would be forcing the target market to divide the figure in their heads...

Link | Posted on Apr 10, 2018 at 19:15 UTC
In reply to:

ewelch: I so want to love the SL system. But it's so freaking big, and blocky, and the competition smokes it in so many ways.

There's no mistake - I'm comparing the most recent SL body against the most recent Alpha body. That's the choice faced by customers.

The point is that the SL is currently beaten by the competition. Whether or not it was beaten by the competition when it was released is only relevant to time travellers.

"Laughably you cited DXO sensor scoring, which just means you read gear charts."

LOL!!! Gear charts!!11 Who needs objective numbers and repeatable scientific tests when you have online hyperbole, subjectively noise judgements and confirmation bias to go by, right?

Also I didn't forget weather sealing I mentioned it in the last sentence of the post above.

Link | Posted on Apr 10, 2018 at 16:15 UTC
On article Blackmagic Design announces Pocket Cinema Camera 4K (398 comments in total)
In reply to:

Pinionist: I'm wondering how they can achieve 13 stops of dynamic range with 4/3 sensor ? Isn't this like a bit too small sensor for such depth ?

@Pinionist

DR is the difference between the clipping point and the noise floor, but since there's no official definition you can claim any figure you like for DR by changing how you define the noise floor.

@PhozoKozmos

Actually the M43 standard doesn't say anything about what the sensor size should be, it only specifies the diagonal measurement, so there is no "full MFT".

Link | Posted on Apr 10, 2018 at 14:39 UTC
In reply to:

ewelch: I so want to love the SL system. But it's so freaking big, and blocky, and the competition smokes it in so many ways.

@HowaboutRAW "how does the competition smoke it? be specific"

Here's some specifics, compared to the SL, the A7RIII:

- Is around half the price: $3,198 vs $5,995 source: Amazon.com
- Has 42 megapixels vs 24 megapixels
- Better normalised PDR at every ISO (starting at 0.84 stops at min ISO, >1.47 stops above ISO 640) source: Bill Claff
- Better normalised SNR at every ISO (~4dB which is about 2/3 of a stop) source: DXO labs
- 5.5 stop in-body stabilisation vs. 0 stops in-body stabilisation
- Full frame 4K video vs Super-35 crop 4K video
- Features such as pixelshift multi-shot, face recognition, eye-tracking AF, flicker detection, articulated screen, log gamma in stills mode.

And the A9:

- Is still ~$1500 cheaper
- Much higher framerate 20fps vs 11fps
- Blackout free shooting
- Low distortion electronic shutter

All the Leica really has going for it is the higher refresh EVF, better weather sealing and of course the red dot.

Link | Posted on Apr 10, 2018 at 14:21 UTC
In reply to:

Vik2012: Lots of DPReview visitor crystal-balls going into the trash after reading this article. DSLR's were predicted to be extinct how many years ago now... 5?, 10? :D

@DaveE1

Well you clearly didn't read it as "everyone predicted X, and look it hasn't happened" is a perfect example of a straw man argument if the initial assertion is untrue.

According to Vik2012 "lots of people" made a prediction.

I'm asking for a single example, which apparently cannot be provided.... laugh out loud, as you say.

Link | Posted on Apr 4, 2018 at 14:12 UTC
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