Zoom or Prime

  • Thread starter Thread starter NCV
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I bought an E-M10 fitted with the 17/1.8 as a travel camera. No other lens; why?

#1 and foremost size/weight

#2 speed

#3 handling (focusing speed, and ease)

Option B - Zoom, would have meant the 12-40/2.8. There I would gain FL flexibility, but loose #1, #2 and arguably #3.

If I was travelling for the purpose of photography, my lens options would be entirely different, but for the purpose of a holiday, the 17/1.8 meets 90% of my needs. IQ is no reason to go prime over a Pro-Zoom.
 
I am curious to know after reading lots of these posts what apart from the small image quality gain, or for when one needs special lenses ( hyper fast or fish eye for example) for particular tasks, what is the advantage of a fixed focal length over a high quality zoom for most photographic tasks?
Speed and/or size.
 
Recently and very often when I see replies to questions about what lens to take on this or that trip or what lenses to buy, the replies often lean towards prime fixed focal length lenses instead of zoom lenses.

I am curious to know after reading lots of these posts what apart from the small image quality gain, or for when one needs special lenses ( hyper fast or fish eye for example) for particular tasks, what is the advantage of a fixed focal length over a high quality zoom for most photographic tasks?

My opinion is that for most photography the preference for prime lenses is a leftover from the time when zooms were markedly inferior to prime lenses. I grew up with prime lenses until many years ago I was shown the Nikon 35-70 2.8. After using that lens I felt the fixed focal length lens was now a largely redundant concept for most tasks.

I have four zoom lenses that cover from 8 to 300mm including the Lumix 12-35 2.8 and Lumix 35-100 2.8 with this setup I have never felt myself to be at any disadvantage either technical and aesthetical over when I used fixed focal length lenses. For travel and hiking photography I cannot imagine the hassle of fiddling around with a bag full of prime lenses and with a zoom I can always frame precisely what I want in the frame when it is not possible to zoom with my feet.

I accept that a fixed focal length lens is a good learning tool which enables one to appreciate angle of view an prospective effects, but that is about all.

What is your take on this?

http://nigelvoak.blogspot.it/
Not sure how you arrived at this generalization. It seems to me that for all sorts of photography, not just travel photography, the balance of the advice is leaning towards the newer, high-quality zooms.

I don't have the budget for the high-zoot zooms, but I still prefer to have a standard kit zoom on my camera most of the time. In fact, even if I had the money for the one of the f/2.8 constant zooms, chances are, most of the time, I'd stick with a smaller slower zoom for the more convenient size.

With my 14-42 zoom I bring a couple other lenses with me depending on the situation. If I take my smallest camera pouch I can carry my 24mm f/1.4 Wesley along for indoor pictures. I can take my 40-150 zoom in my jacket pocket if I think I'll have use for it. This is when I'm not going somewhere specifically to take pictures, but I want to have a camera with me.

If I'm traveling and I want to go all-purpose I can add a hotshoe flash, a 50mm f/1.8 with a macro converter and my fisheye and take all of it in a tiny shoulder bag, but the cheapo zooms remain the core of my kit for most situations.
 
Nigel,

First let me say that you have some beautiful pictures on your website, very much the kind of pictures I enjoy taking when travelling mediterranean countries.

With the advanced capabilities of the present MFT cameras, most of your pictures could easily be taken with a 14-140 or 14-150mm FT superzoom, without the annoyance of changing lenses. Therefore your question makes perfect sense. I found that compact size and extended zoom range are more important than maximum brightness. Only recently, I posted a few pictures at full size to demonstrate the optical capabilities of such a lens.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54712632

For changing lenses, my only reasons are: Very low light, portaits or fisheye fun.

Herbert

--
http://www.pbase.com/herbRD
 
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NCV , I pretty much agree with you. The only fixed focal length lens I own are a couple of macro lenses from my 4:3 system, and the 45 f/1.8 which I specifically bought for low light use when my 12x40 is too slow, and for the occaisional portrait. Otherwise I have little use for prime lenses. I am quite disappointed that the new Oly 300mm lens is a prime lens. I'd MUCH prefer something like a 100x300 f/4 zoom. I know it would be a little larger and heavier and cost more, but it would SO much more versatile.
 
I have four zoom lenses that cover from 8 to 300mm including the Lumix 12-35 2.8 and Lumix 35-100 2.8 with this setup I have never felt myself to be at any disadvantage either technical and aesthetical over when I used fixed focal length lenses. For travel and hiking photography I cannot imagine the hassle of fiddling around with a bag full of prime lenses and with a zoom I can always frame precisely what I want in the frame when it is not possible to zoom with my feet.

I accept that a fixed focal length lens is a good learning tool which enables one to appreciate angle of view an prospective effects, but that is about all.

What is your take on this?
If you can't think of a situation in which f/2.8 isn't enough, then sure, stick with the zoom. But if you've ever tried to take action shots in less than ideal lighting, you need all the f-stops you can get. When the lighting's poor enough, f/1.4 gives me (vs f/2.8) the choice of using a shutter speed that is four times faster, or ISO 1600 vs your ISO 6400. When I'm struggling to get an ISO 8000 shot with a barely acceptable shutter speed on my f/1.4 primes, where are you left with your f/2.8 zoom? Sure, you can just do your best and get your shot, but you're clearly at a disadvantage, both technically and aesthetically speaking.
 
Nigel,

First let me say that you have some beautiful pictures on your website, very much the kind of pictures I enjoy taking when travelling mediterranean countries.
Thanks
With the advanced capabilities of the present MFT cameras, most of
your pictures could easily be taken with a 14-140 or 14-150mm FT superzoom, without the annoyance of changing lenses. Therefore your question makes perfect sense. I found that compact size and extended zoom range are more important than maximum brightness. Only recently, I posted a few pictures at full size to demonstrate the optical capabilities of such a lens.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/54712632
Your link backs up with some nice pictures what I wrote.

I too have a 14-140 super zoom and the optical quality is fine for most photographic situations with good light.
For changing lenses, my only reasons are: Very low light, portaits or fisheye fun.

Herbert

--
http://www.pbase.com/herbRD
 
NCV , I pretty much agree with you. The only fixed focal length lens I own are a couple of macro lenses from my 4:3 system, and the 45 f/1.8 which I specifically bought for low light use when my 12x40 is too slow, and for the occaisional portrait. Otherwise I have little use for prime lenses. I am quite disappointed that the new Oly 300mm lens is a prime lens. I'd MUCH prefer something like a 100x300 f/4 zoom. I know it would be a little larger and heavier and cost more, but it would SO much more versatile.
 
I have four zoom lenses that cover from 8 to 300mm including the Lumix 12-35 2.8 and Lumix 35-100 2.8 with this setup I have never felt myself to be at any disadvantage either technical and aesthetical over when I used fixed focal length lenses. For travel and hiking photography I cannot imagine the hassle of fiddling around with a bag full of prime lenses and with a zoom I can always frame precisely what I want in the frame when it is not possible to zoom with my feet.

I accept that a fixed focal length lens is a good learning tool which enables one to appreciate angle of view an prospective effects, but that is about all.

What is your take on this?
If you can't think of a situation in which f/2.8 isn't enough, then sure, stick with the zoom. But if you've ever tried to take action shots in less than ideal lighting, you need all the f-stops you can get. When the lighting's poor enough, f/1.4 gives me (vs f/2.8) the choice of using a shutter speed that is four times faster, or ISO 1600 vs your ISO 6400. When I'm struggling to get an ISO 8000 shot with a barely acceptable shutter speed on my f/1.4 primes, where are you left with your f/2.8 zoom? Sure, you can just do your best and get your shot, but you're clearly at a disadvantage, both technically and aesthetically speaking.
True, and I wrote as much in my OP.
 
Received a recent newsletter from Guy Edwardes, a British landscape/nature photographer, and it contained the following:

"I have always preferred the flexibility of zoom lenses for landscape photography, as they allow me to get my composition just right in-camera. This is more important to me than any slight increase in image quality that I might obtain using prime lenses. There is no doubt that the very best prime lenses outperform the best zoom lenses in some areas, but as long as my lenses provide all the quality that I need for the sizes that my images are normally reproduced then that’s all that matters to me. I did use an extremely sharp set of Zeiss prime wide-angle lenses for a time, but eventually switched back to zooms."

Think that sums it up precisely.
 
Really kind of a silly argument.
Why?

My OP was stating my opinion on lens choice after reading some posts on this site, you may agree or disagree, but because you disagree that does not make my opinion "silly", does it?


I own AND USE the Panny 12-35 and 35-100 f2.8's AND the 20, 25, 45, and 75 primes. (Which i might add, except for one, I've bought all used on E-Bay.)

My first choice are the primes, but when you're shooting in a situation where your field of view is constantly changing, I pull out the zooms.
It may be interesting if you could tell us why you prefer prime lenses instead of two zoom lenses that are almost equal in quality to your primes.
SF Photo Gal aka Faggurl
San Francisco, CA
 
Really kind of a silly argument.
Why?

My OP was stating my opinion on lens choice after reading some posts on this site, you may agree or disagree, but because you disagree that does not make my opinion "silly", does it?
I own AND USE the Panny 12-35 and 35-100 f2.8's AND the 20, 25, 45, and 75 primes. (Which i might add, except for one, I've bought all used on E-Bay.)

My first choice are the primes, but when you're shooting in a situation where your field of view is constantly changing, I pull out the zooms.
It may be interesting if you could tell us why you prefer prime lenses instead of two zoom lenses that are almost equal in quality to your primes.
SF Photo Gal aka Faggurl
San Francisco, CA
I never suggested your "opinion" was silly. I think the argument is silly. Everyone has different needs and likes and I don't think you need to be in one camp or another.

For me, I like the extra speed and edge to edge sharpness of my primes, but I don't hesitate to pull out a zoom when I need too. Sometimes primes are too restrictive and shooting opportunities can be lost when you're switching between lenses.


SF Photo Gal aka Faggurl
San Francisco, CA
 
I prefer to use two bodies with a 28 and a 45-50mm prime lenses. When needed, I like to use a telephoto zoom (something of the 70-200 variety or close). In theory, I could very well use one body with a 50mm lens and another with a normal zoom too, but there are a number of reasons why I've yet to find a way to make it work for me in practice.

The first point is : why the 45-50mm prime ? That one is mandatory at all cost, and every other decision I make in a system is tied to that one. Well it's simply that I prefer the way this focal length looks and most of the shots I take that I don't dislike too much are made with that focal length, then 28mm, then in the telephoto range. Weirdly, I've never ever liked a shot I've taken with a 35mm focal length (but I do like a lot of shots taken with a 35mm focal length from other photographers), and I usually tend to crop a little shots made with a 40mm to something closer to the 45-50mm range. And I mostly dislike focal lengths wider than 28mm unless the focal length doesn't make itself known (either from me or others).

Now in the m43 world, the 12-40mm @f2.8 is pretty much on par with the Olympus 25mm @f2.8 in terms of resolution, but it's a lot bulkier and a ton heavier, is more than a stop slower (and with m43 sensors, every stop helps), and, in general, I've always had a psychological issue with zooms with wobbly inner tubes. What's the point in using something that's bigger, heavier, and slower if around 70% of the shots I'll keep will be around 50mm anyway ? It would be a needless operational hassle, especially as I carry the EM1 + 25mm combo with me every single day.

But I still bought it knowing that it was the best 28mm equivalent lens I could find for the m43 system (which highlights the lack of proper wide-angle primes in that system, or that, as far as 24mm is concerned, the 12mm f2 lens is a little too expensive for what it provides in terms of optical quality), that reselling it wouldn't cost me a dime thanks to a promotional event, and with the intention to try to use it with the second body on days dedicated to photography. But there its weight and size let me down, as I found it tedious to carry it on a second body for something that I'd mostly use at 28mm anyway. Also, I think it's flimsly made (I only used it once in the field and the black paint is already wearing off, and of course the inner tube wobbles and feels cheap). So I bought the Panasonic 14mm, which, relatively speaking, is pretty much a rubbish lens (it's a substantial downgrade from the Canon 28mm IS USM I used before, unlike the Olympus 25mm, which is an upgrade compared to Canon's prehistoric cheap and crapful 50mm lenses), but a lot smaller and lighter, and in line with the fact that I won't use it for more than 25% of my shots. I might buy the Panasonic 12-35 as a replacement, as it's smaller, and can't be worse than the Panasonic 14mm optically, or the 15mm.

Here we're touching another reason why I tend to prefer primes : manufacturing tolerances and quality control. At least that's what I though before trying my hand at some mirrorless systems, where I've witnessed insane levels of manufacturing tolerances and awful decentered rubbish thrown into the distribution system, regardless of if it's a prime or a zoom. For example, SLRgear's sample of the 35-100mm is clearly defective at 100mm. And Lenstip's sample of the 15mm is decentered (tilted focal plane). My first copy of the 12-40 was dismally decentered at 40mm (the second one is just fine though), and four out of seven Olympus 25mm I've had in my hands had a similar problem, a tilted focal plane on the left side, most likely a batch issue - and Photographyblog's copy has the same issue, easily visible on this shot : http://img.photographyblog.com/revi...ages/olympus_m_zuiko_digital_25mm_f_18_36.jpg

So I'm not sure this last point is valid for the m43 system (and in my experience Fuji too).
 
Another consideration is: zooming with your feet or your lens. Some environments just don't lend themselves to zooming with your feet: you might fall off a cliff, or bump into other people, etc. So a zoom works best in these environments. I use primes when I want to go light, I can maneuver around people and objects, and need extra light gathering abilities of some of the fast primes. So both have uses...it is not either or. Jeff
 
Really kind of a silly argument. I own AND USE the Panny 12-35 and 35-100 f2.8's AND the 20, 25, 45, and 75 primes. (Which i might add, except for one, I've bought all used on E-Bay.)

My first choice are the primes, but when you're shooting in a situation where your field of view is constantly changing, I pull out the zooms.

SF Photo Gal aka Faggurl
San Francisco, CA
Yup. I'd hate to be limited to either and in fact, own both. At least a couple of my primes are better than any available zoom at that focal length, but others in my kit have reasonable zoom analogues, but I'm keeping them for a variety of purposes.

I liken it to manual versus automatic transmissions. While I prefer a manual because I like the more concise car control and actually the process of clutching and shifting, in stop-and-go traffic or very hilly cities (cough, San Francisco) an auto is simply better (not to mention there are vanishingly few cars sold with manuals anymore). Sometimes a zoom is simply the better option but carefully selected primes have and will continue to be the better choice at other times.

The end.

Rick

--
Equivalence and diffraction-free since 2009.
You can be too; ask about our 12-step program.
 
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Even as a complete novice (or maybe because I'm a complete novice?) I don't understand why some people seem desperate to corner themselves as either prime or zoom shooters... Don't most people just use both as the situation, budget, and preference dictates?

I like a small kit, and I can pack a camera and several (3-5) small primes & slow zooms in a bag way smaller than what any f2.8 zoom would allow, plus one such zoom would cost as much as half my six lens collection does and they're far less conspicuous. Even with an extreme focus on portability I still find zooms useful tho...

Got three zooms and three primes and my most used lenses are probably one of the primes and one of the zooms... Didn't really try to split the difference like this either, just how things turned out. My fisheye prime and tele zoom weren't part of my original M4/3 wishlist, the UWA, pancake zoom & 20/45 primes were.

I've bought all three of my mother's lenses and she's gone in the opposite direction, versatile zooms for less switching and decision making (12-35 & 14-140, plus the one 60/2.8 prime I'm gifting her soon). No M4/3 zoom can turn into a fisheye, be as small and inoffensive as my 20, or achieve tree background separation of a 45/1.8 tho.

If you're happy with your zooms no one can take that away from you, but claiming that primes are some vestigial trend seems a little close minded.
 
If you really have to look for situations where an f2.8 zoom isn't adequate then it's clearly the right choice for you, but it seems to me there's still a lot of purely technical reasons people pick primes, beyond even cost and ergonomic/portability reasons.

For astrophotography you really need something faster than f2.8 (not preferable, needed), same for certain kinds of action shots, portraits, etc. Sometimes the ergonomic/logistic preference for primes turns into a technical one too, subjects react very differently to a 12-40 f/2.8 being aimed at them than many of the smaller primes.

You can turn that around on zooms too, it's not always possible to move with any degree of freedom, in certain hectic scenarios a zoom is faster to work with and/or allows more precise framing, etc. I wouldn't wanna limit myself to one or the other, it's like saying you only need a powerdrill or screwdriver in the house but not both.
 
Even as a complete novice (or maybe because I'm a complete novice?) I don't understand why some people seem desperate to corner themselves as either prime or zoom shooters... Don't most people just use both as the situation, budget, and preference dictates?

I like a small kit, and I can pack a camera and several (3-5) small primes & slow zooms in a bag way smaller than what any f2.8 zoom would allow, plus one such zoom would cost as much as half my six lens collection does and they're far less conspicuous. Even with an extreme focus on portability I still find zooms useful tho...

Got three zooms and three primes and my most used lenses are probably one of the primes and one of the zooms... Didn't really try to split the difference like this either, just how things turned out. My fisheye prime and tele zoom weren't part of my original M4/3 wishlist, the UWA, pancake zoom & 20/45 primes were.

I've bought all three of my mother's lenses and she's gone in the opposite direction, versatile zooms for less switching and decision making (12-35 & 14-140, plus the one 60/2.8 prime I'm gifting her soon). No M4/3 zoom can turn into a fisheye, be as small and inoffensive as my 20, or achieve tree background separation of a 45/1.8 tho.

If you're happy with your zooms no one can take that away from you, but claiming that primes are some vestigial trend seems a little close minded.
Actually I have a couple of prime lenses ( 60 macro and fish eye) to do things my zooms cannot do. So it is not that I just use zooms. I was clear about this in my OP.

I also had a small normal prime lens, but after I bought the 12-35 2.8 by trading in some old Nikon gear I found it to be redundant. The 12-35 is not that big.

I try to rationalise my gear collection down to the bare versatile minimum, eliminating duplicates and stuff I do not use.
 
If you really have to look for situations where an f2.8 zoom isn't adequate then it's clearly the right choice for you, but it seems to me there's still a lot of purely technical reasons people pick primes, beyond even cost and ergonomic/portability reasons.

For astrophotography you really need something faster than f2.8 (not preferable, needed), same for certain kinds of action shots, portraits, etc. Sometimes the ergonomic/logistic preference for primes turns into a technical one too, subjects react very differently to a 12-40 f/2.8 being aimed at them than many of the smaller primes.
I have found that the "toy camera" effect of my EM5 or GX1 to be more important than what lens is mounted on it, The normal zooms are all quite small.
You can turn that around on zooms too, it's not always possible to move with any degree of freedom, in certain hectic scenarios a zoom is faster to work with and/or allows more precise framing, etc. I wouldn't wanna limit myself to one or the other, it's like saying you only need a powerdrill or screwdriver in the house but not both.
Shure there are good reasons for choosing certain prime lenses over a zoom for certain jobs.
 
NCV wrote:

Actually I have a couple of prime lenses ( 60 macro and fish eye) to do things my zooms cannot do. So it is not that I just use zooms. I was clear about this in my OP.

I also had a small normal prime lens, but after I bought the 12-35 2.8 by trading in some old Nikon gear I found it to be redundant. The 12-35 is not that big.

I try to rationalise my gear collection down to the bare versatile minimum, eliminating duplicates and stuff I do not use.
I had the 12-35 and after having it for over a year and barely using it, it became an expensive paperweight. I just sold it to make room for some more primes, and now I have zero premium zooms.

As I've said before in this thread, for a lot of shooters, like me, f/2.8 is just not enough. Sometimes, f/1.8 or f/1.4 aren't enough, either, but that happens a lot less than it does with f/2.8.

Now, on the other hand, if you're a shooter that often shoots stopped down, which I guess most travel photography is, then I'm sure a zoom works better for you. If you're someone who always wants wider aperture, and still maintain portability (i.e. not Sigma 18-35 on Metabones), then really your only choices are which set of primes to carry.

But if you're someone who likes minimal gear, shooting in good light, and stopping down, then like someone else said, the 14-140 II is probably the best lens to have, and indeed, I am thinking about getting that lens. I honestly find f/2.8 on MFT to be stuck in a weird spot between too slow for action and too expensive to have unless I'm using it all the time.
 

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